What are some of the pressing issues faced by the Orthodox Church?

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

What are the most prevalent issues that the Orthdox Church faces today?

I am not speaking politically, but rather internally. Are there priests or monks who are vocal about disagreeing with parts of the Orthodox faith? Are there vocal fringe groups of women who feel that women should be ordained to the priesthood, or to the diaconate? Are there groups of individuals, however small, who are vocal about feeling, for example, that the Orthodox faith is stuffy and needs to "get with the times"?

Really think about it before you answer. I'm just curious, because as any of you who poke your heads into OBOB know... we Catholics struggle with LOTS of people who publicly shout dissent and demand change on such issues.

But what are things that you Orthodox struggle with as a Church? What are your biggest challenges in that regard?

I'm just curious, that's all.

[MariaRegina]

How many Orthodox people does it take to change a lightbulb?

Change? What is that strange word?




Those who dissent are promptly told that joke. :)

[EmperorConstantine]

Change? We don't need no stinkin' change!

That all depends on when and where. I've heard that the Orthodox in Russia and the Ukraine are having competition with various Uniate groups.

There's the whole every Catholic or Protestant and his brother run over to Eastern Europe right after Communism fell and that wasn't very nice on their parts because Orthodoxy was in those places first.

The 20 some jurisdictions in the US, but that's not really a problem because so long as you are in Communion with Constantinople, you're in Communion with every one else.

Are there groups of individuals, however small, who are vocal about feeling, for example, that the Orthodox faith is stuffy and needs to "get with the times"?I have never heard that Orthodoxy needs to "get with the times" because it is its antiquity that attracts people. As said before, we don't need no stinkin' change!

The only ones who would say Orthodoxy needs to change would probably be ultra-Liberal people mainly from Western countries that are greatly Protestant.

Why get with the program we had no say in making, when we are content with our own?

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

LOL @ the change joke. It makes me giggle every time I hear it.

The only ones who would say Orthodoxy needs to change would probably be ultra-Liberal people mainly from Western countries that are greatly Protestant.

Hmm, precisely. That mindset taints everything else, including one's approach to religion. They bring it with them and forget that conversion is about putting off the old mand and putting on the new...

But say, in the US, have there been groups of converts who, influenced by their more liberal upbringing, speak out and call for accommodation?

What about in countries with lots of cradle Orthodox, where it is not so much treated as a faith but as part of a culture? Are there any of you here from countries such as Greece? What difficulties or challenges do you see to the faith from that perspective?

Is the "woman ordination" (even to the diaconate) thing even an issue in any Orthodox circles? (Personally I think it's mainly a big issue in Western Christianity because the women's lib movement has filled everyone's heads with warped views of what it means to be equal and valued.) I specify diaconate because there is mention of Phoebe, a female deacon, in the NT, and that has been cause for debate in Western circles. (Then again... the people who debate it seem to misunderstand what ordination truly means in the first place.)

[EmperorConstantine]

There are groups (individual churches) which are not Orthodox, but Orthodox only in name. These churches are not in communion with the rest because some of them have women priests.

In "mainstream" Orthodoxy (Constantinople, Russia, Bulgaria, etc) women ordination is simply not an issue. Just like many other things that are issues in Catholicism or Protestantism; in Orthodoxy its just not an issue.

[kamikat]

Well, we do have issues with the whole multiple jurisdiction in the US thing. Some parishes have ethnic problems (ie people equating being Orthodox with being Greek, Russian or whatever). Also, there are financial problems within the OCA. So far, I haven't heard of issues that seem to be common with the American Roman Catholic Church. There are schismatic groups, but just like the SSPX chapels for the Catholics, there aren't in communion with the Orthodox Church.

[rusmeister]

Just to offer another voice, no there are no such groups, really. The people that do insist on their own views changing the teachings of the Church wind up leaving or forming splinter groups out-of-communion, which is leaving. There are people who have differing (even widely)opinions on non-dogmatic and secular issues - just look at some of our threads! - but on the dogma of Faith we are really united. My basis of comparison, while not very large, is American Orthodox churches (OCA and Antiochian) in California and now the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia. You can find bickering on the little things, but no attempts to change the Church, only conform to it.

[Matrona]

The 20 some jurisdictions in the US, but that's not really a problem because so long as you are in Communion with Constantinople, you're in Communion with every one else.

This is an error. Constantinople is not some kind of Orthodox Vatican. One's Orthodoxy doesn't pivot on being in communion with any particular see, it's all-or-nothing, save for ROCOR's tricky situation.

[EmperorConstantine]

I think it says a lot on unity when you have ROCOR and Moscow re-entering Communion.

Lord only knows what will happen afterward.

I've even heard rumors that the Antiochians may join the OCA. As to that, I just think it would be nice if it was just one jurisdiction for this country.

[EmperorConstantine]

This is an error. Constantinople is not some kind of Orthodox Vatican. One's Orthodoxy doesn't pivot on being in communion with any particular see, it's all-or-nothing, save for ROCOR's tricky situation.
Ah, I see where I made my mistake :doh:

I think in my laziness, I just put Constantinople instead of everybody.

[choirfiend]

Orthodoxy DOES have some of those people. There's one loudmouth I know who recently argued long and hard that the reason for a male ordained priesthood was purely discriminatory and patriarchal societies up until this point. And he's a seminarian (how, I have no idea). Are there organized movements on any level? not really. Are these people numerous? Not at all. Is it on anywhere near the same level as the level of Roman Catholic people who have become affected by our current religious climate and clamor for all of the mentioned "improvements?" Definitely not.

[Matrona]

Ah, I see where I made my mistake :doh:

I think in my laziness, I just put Constantinople instead of everybody.

That's okay. :hug:

As an Antiochian, I kinda hope that the Antiochians do join the OCA... they can help us with our music, and we can help them with their money. ;)

[EmperorConstantine]

That's okay. :hug:

As an Antiochian, I kinda hope that the Antiochians do join the OCA... they can help us with our music, and we can help them with their money. ;)
:D

We all know how much the OCA needs help with its money!

[ufonium2]

As an Antiochian, I kinda hope that the Antiochians do join the OCA... they can help us with our music, and we can help them with their money. ;)That's hilarious. My parish (Antiochian) does lots of stuff musically that makes me want to bang my head into a wall until I go deaf.

Edited to add: But in the spirit of this thread, the musical stuff that bugs me is totally minor compared to, say, a rock band on Holy Saturday, a situation which caused my Catholic boss to inquire about Orthodoxy a couple of years ago ;)

[zhilan]

The music is one of my favorite parts at my Antiochian church! haha, but my church is predominately Arab, so they know what they're doing. It's beautiful. You should come visit! =)

I've never really heard anything about the women's issues. I think maybe because we don't even have girl altar severs so its not much of an issue (just like i'm sure its not an issue in the FSSP Catholic parishes).

I would say Orthodoxy's biggest hurdle is probably the ethnic issue, but they are progressing in it. Antiochian and OCA tend to be very convert-friendly and some Greeks as well. I think the others tend to not have English services (but I could be wrong).

[Matrona]

Orthodoxy DOES have some of those people. There's one loudmouth I know who recently argued long and hard that the reason for a male ordained priesthood was purely discriminatory and patriarchal societies up until this point. And he's a seminarian (how, I have no idea).

Oh, dear. :( I hope someone up there knocks some sense into him before he graduates.

Are there organized movements on any level? not really. Are these people numerous? Not at all.

There are organizations with slick articles and websites advocating this sort of thing among Orthodox. Most of them are being run out of someone's garage, and the rest are schismatics, or have otherwise proved themselves not to have the best interests of the Church or Her children in mind.

At any rate, they don't have much influence. They mostly befuddle the innocent and that's about it.

[Mytheodos]

What are some of the pressing issues faced by the Orthodox Church?
Ecumenism..
Ecumenism and Tradition according to
Elder Paisios...
Respect for Tradition

Many of the holy Martyrs, whenever they were unfamiliar with a dogma, used to say: “I trust whatever the Holy Fathers have instituted”. If anyone dared to say those words, they would suffer martyrdom. In other words, although they did not know how to present any proof to their persecutors, they did, however, have faith in the Holy Fathers. They would think to themselves: “How can I not trust the Holy Fathers? They were far more experienced, and virtuous, and saintly. How can I agree to something that is nonsense? How can I tolerate someone abusing the Holy Fathers?” We must have faith in Tradition. Nowadays, unfortunately, we notice that “European good manners” have shown up, and they strive to present a benevolent face. They try to be superior, but in the end, they head towards the worship of the two-horned devil. “Only one religion must exist” they tell you, and they flatten everything.
I’ve had people come to me too, who suggested: “All of us who believe in Christ should form one religion”.
I said to them: Now what you’re telling me is to take gold and copper – gold of so many carats quality – which they took so much trouble to purify, and then gather the metals and melt them into one mass. Is it right to mix them together again? Ask any goldsmith: “Should we mix inferior elements with gold?”
Well, the same trouble was taken to filter-clean the dogma. The Holy Fathers must have known something, when they forbade every association with a heretic. Nowadays they say: “We should all pray together – not only with a heretic, but also with a Buddhist and a fire-worshipper and a demon-worshipper. The Orthodox should also participate in these common prayers and conventions. It is a matter of presence.”
What do they mean by “presence”? They strive to solve everything with logic, in order to justify the unjustifiable. The “European spirit” is convinced that spiritual matters can also be made a part of the Common Market.
Some of the rather shallow Orthodox want to project “Missionary work”, so they convene meetings with the heterodox for the sake of being heard, and they think that this is the way to advertise Orthodoxy – by mingling in the same pot with cacodoxies. Then we have the hyper-zealots at the other extreme: they even blaspheme the Sacraments of the New-Calendarists etc., and they excessively scandalize those souls who are pious and have an orthodox sensitivity. The heterodox on the other hand usually attend meetings, they pose as know-it-alls, they take any good spiritual material that they find with the Orthodox, they take it to their own workshop, add their own colours and brand names and they present it as something original.
Today’s strange world is actually moved by such strange things, and it is eventually destroyed spiritually. But the Lord – when the time is right – will bring forth new Marks of Ephesus and the Gregories of Palamas, who will muster all of our scandalized brethren, who will confess the Orthodox faith, consolidate the Orthodox Tradition and give great joy to our Mother the Church.
If we were living Patristically, we would all be enjoying a spiritual health that would have been the envy of all the heterodox; it would have made them abandon their sick fallacies and render them saved, without any sermons. At present, they are not moved by our holy Patristic tradition, because they are waiting to see our Patristic continuation – our true kinship with our Saints...........

[Mytheodos]

continued...

That which is obligatory for every Orthodox, is for them to sow the “benevolent anxiety” in the heterodox as well; in other words, to bring them to the realization that they are living a fallacy and that they should not light-heartedly relax their thoughts, for fear of depriving themselves in this life of the bounteous blessings of Orthodoxy, and in the life to come, the infinitely more and everlasting blessings of God
I was once visited by some Catholic children who had good intentions, and were ready to acquaint themselves with Orthodoxy. “We want you to say something to us, so that we will be helped spiritually”, they told me.
“Look”, I replied, “find a book on Ecclesiastic History, and you will see how we once used to be together, and then see where you wound up. This will help you immensely. Do it, and the next time, we will talk about many things.”
In olden times, people used to respect something because it was their grandfather’s, and they used to safeguard it like an heirloom. I once met a very good lawyer. His house was very simply furnished, and it relaxed not only him, but his visitors also. He told me this, some time ago :
“A few years ago, Father, my acquaintances made fun of me because of the old, family furniture that I had. Now they come and admire them as valuable antiques. While I make daily use of them and enjoy them because they remind me of my father, my mother, my grandparents, and I am always emotionally touched, those acquaintances now go around collecting various old pieces of furniture, to the point that they have turned their lounges into curiosity shops, in an attempt to take their minds off their problems and forget their secular stress.”
In the past, one would hold on to a tiny little coin of insignificant value as though it were a vast fortune, only because it was given to him by his mother or his grandfather. Nowadays, if someone has an expensive coin – a gold Pound for example – that was given to him by his grandfather, and that coin’s value is slightly higher than its original value, he will give it away to be sold. He will not show any respect, nor will he be concerned about any mother or father. It’s that “European spirit” that is slowly creeping in and is sweeping us all away....
I recall the first time that I visited the Holy Mountain – in one of the retinues, the Elder was a little old man, who was very pious. Out of piety, he had preserved from generation to generation, not only the stoles of his (spiritual) grandfathers, his predecessors, but also the moulds that had been used to make the stoles. He also had several old books and various manuscripts that he kept beautifully wrapped in his book-case, which was carefully closed so that they wouldn’t collect dust. He never touched those books; he kept them wrapped up. “I am not worthy to read such books” he would say. “I will just read these simpler ones – the Gerontikon, the Ladder...”.
Then a young monk came along (he finally didn’t stay on the Mountain permanently) who had asked the elder: “Why do you keep all this junk here?” He made a move to take away the moulds and dispose of them – to burn them. The poor old man begged him with tears: “that was from my grandfather – why do you mind my keeping it? There are so many other rooms here – leave them be in a corner.” Out of the piety that he had, he not only held on to the books, the heirlooms, the stoles, but even the moulds!
When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition.

[EmperorConstantine]

Oh, dear. :( I hope someone up there knocks some sense into him before he graduates.
I'm sure if he serves in a parish, one of the old ladies would do so!

[jckstraw72]

i dont know if anyone has said this, but we could drop the Slavonic and Koine Greek and perhaps use languages that people understand. I've already met a few ppl who dont konw their faith bc they never knew what was being said in Liturgy.

[gzt]

He doesn't really need sense by the time he graduates, he just needs to never ever be ordained.

[jckstraw72]

and an issue that personally bugs me is liberality with alcohol both in amount and in allowing minors to drink in the name of "we're not tea-totaling Protestants."

[Matrona]

That's hilarious. My parish (Antiochian) does lots of stuff musically that makes me want to bang my head into a wall until I go deaf.

Amateurs, eh?

Let's just say that I really wish someone would come out with an Orthodox Music for Dummies so that more people know what they are doing if there's no one at a parish who has any experience with Orthodox music.

Edited to add: But in the spirit of this thread, the musical stuff that bugs me is totally minor compared to, say, a rock band on Holy Saturday, a situation which caused my Catholic boss to inquire about Orthodoxy a couple of years ago ;)

:D

I had to go to a Mass one time for a school project. The music was okay, but I really didn't think the guitar and drums added anything to it.

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

That's hilarious. My parish (Antiochian) does lots of stuff musically that makes me want to bang my head into a wall until I go deaf.

Tell me a bit more about music. The Eastern services I've read about/attended have only had vocal chant. It was quite beautiful. Are there variations in music according to which church (Antiochian or Russian or Greek etc.) one is affiliated with as a whole? I know that Russian chant differs from Greek chant; not talking about that. Do you ever use instruments (so far, haven't heard so)? Do you have hymnals?

Is it on anywhere near the same level as the level of Roman Catholic people who have become affected by our current religious climate and clamor for all of the mentioned "improvements?" Definitely not.

But then again, in comparison, there are 1.1 billion people who classify themselves as Catholic in the world... and about 220-240 million who classify themselves as Orthodox. So when the Catholic dissenters get rowdy, their voice might be louder comparatively because there are more of them. So that is understandable.

[Philothei]

What are the most prevalent issues that the Orthdox Church faces today?

I am not speaking politically, but rather internally. Are there priests or monks who are vocal about disagreeing with parts of the Orthodox faith? Are there vocal fringe groups of women who feel that women should be ordained to the priesthood, or to the diaconate? Are there groups of individuals, however small, who are vocal about feeling, for example, that the Orthodox faith is stuffy and needs to "get with the times"?

Really think about it before you answer. I'm just curious, because as any of you who poke your heads into OBOB know... we Catholics struggle with LOTS of people who publicly shout dissent and demand change on such issues.

But what are things that you Orthodox struggle with as a Church? What are your biggest challenges in that regard?

I'm just curious, that's all.
As a member of the Church of Greece for since childhood (I came to USA to study) I can reassure you like the rest of this group here that we do not have any major challenges from individuals or any groups. I can speak for the Greek Orthodox Church of Greece and honesty can point 2-3 individual cases for over 50 years that would consider Greek Orthodoxy "stagnant". Woman's lib is a western phenomenon that made an impact for certain individuals but was never an issue with the Church of Greece. The office of the women deacons ended in the 1920's. St. Nektarios was the last Saint to "ordain" with the laying of the hands the last women Deacons. In recent years there has been talk in our Church (GOCC) to re-establish that office.

Women Deacons mind you were not participants of any liturical rites. They were nuns that and their role was to take care of the Church in general. In the times of St. Basil and before him women Deacons had more complex responsibilities i.e. bringing communion to the sick women's wards, catechumenate, taking care of the Altar etc. Some of them were also doctors, and more especially gynecologists (believe it or not I found that out through research for one of my papers!). Acually they did ministry to the young ladies contemplating abortion ( it is not a phenomenon of our times only it took place in Byz. times too). The office of the women Deacons was never liturgical that is what we conclude from historical sources that is.
Sorry for the long answer, but to get to the subject again, I believe that women theologians, I could speak for them having studied the faith and the Fathers, believe that the Tradition of our Church as handed down, is pure in its expression. Any diviation of alteration from its truths would have a negatice impact upon our Faith. Although there is always room for improvement I do not believe that we can talk about "change" without considering the impact and of course the consent of the Church in the universal sense that is another Ecumenical council. The idea of a Ecumenical council is universally accepted and understood among us Orthodox. It is also a very complicated issue.

God bless,
Philothei

[ufonium2]

Amateurs, eh?

Let's just say that I really wish someone would come out with an Orthodox Music for Dummies so that more people know what they are doing if there's no one at a parish who has any experience with Orthodox music.


My voice is very weak (Both my parents are chain smokers, so I second-hand smoked four packs of cigarettes a day until I left for college--It's a wonder I don't croak rather than sing) so a lot of times I feel like I'm not a good enough singer to justify complaining about others. But it's not their voices I'm complaining about, it's their decisions. Like, for instance, the decision not to sing what is on the page. Never a good decision, especially when this means several people will be improvising at once.

At the mission where we help out, but don't attend regularly, they are "choir challenged." But a choir director friend and I put together a set of service books that were as simple as we could make them, while still being liturgically correct and musically decent. So they can get through the services with a bare minimum of musical knowledge, and still sound like they know what they are doing.

As an aside, I really think you should have to have some sort of license to sing Byzantine music. At least 90% of my negative church music experiences involve people who would've sounded just fine doing Russian stuff warbling through all eight tones plus four they just made up, in the name of "Byzantine" chant.

[Matrona]

Like, for instance, the decision not to sing what is on the page. Never a good decision, especially when this means several people will be improvising at once.

Oh, that drives me nuts. Especially when the message has been "magically" discussed with everyone except me. I really think things would be better if we just practiced, but nobody wants to do that but me. I don't have a great voice, but I really think things would be better if I were able to see the music outside of having to sing it during the service.

As an aside, I really think you should have to have some sort of license to sing Byzantine music. At least 90% of my negative church music experiences involve people who would've sounded just fine doing Russian stuff warbling through all eight tones plus four they just made up, in the name of "Byzantine" chant.

:D

I would dearly love to learn any of the traditional styles of chanting. I'm sick of this awkward improvise thing we do every week instead.

[ufonium2]

I really think things would be better if we just practiced, but nobody wants to do that but me. I don't have a great voice, but I really think things would be better if I were able to see the music outside of having to sing it during the service.


I apologize for derailing this into a choir-ranting thread, but amen! I won't be in a choir if I can't make 80% of the rehearsals, even if most of the rehearsal time is spent working on notes and rhythms and stuff I do all day long and don't really need to rehearse. To me, it's a matter of having respect for the choir director and for the music itself. But what is really frustrating to me is that I show up for rehearsals, and the folks who can barely read music are the ones who only show up at the service.

My home parish had a core choir of six people that were great. But then we had several folks who just showed up on Sunday and sang their approximation of the music, totally negating the work the rest of us had put into it. It was so frustrating!

[Matrona]

To me, it's a matter of having respect for the choir director and for the music itself. But what is really frustrating to me is that I show up for rehearsals, and the folks who can barely read music are the ones who only show up at the service.

My home parish had a core choir of six people that were great. But then we had several folks who just showed up on Sunday and sang their approximation of the music, totally negating the work the rest of us had put into it. It was so frustrating!

I'm a frequent visitor at a different parish, and I can't help but sing along; I try to do it softly so that I don't throw them off and I only sing along with what I can follow.

I didn't mean for this to turn into a rant either. :sorry: It's just exhausting to have to confront this every week and it feels like I'm spinning my wheels between a rock and a hard place.

[buzuxi02]

The biggest problem facing Orthodoxy is:
1. Ecumenism
2 Jurisdictional problems especially those churches in former communist countries.
3.Modernism (currently a minor headache)

In that order.

[Mary of Bethany]

On the choir thing -

Father has a hard and fast rule that no one can sing with the choir until they have:

1) received permission from him and/or the choir director;

2) attended 4 Saturday afternoon practices; and

3) can make at least 1 practice per month.

And because Father takes it so seriously, we now have a very good choir - most of us have been together for 3 years or more, but we have some new additions, too - and we have around 10 people most Sundays.

:thumbsup:

Mary

[Jacob4707]

and an issue that personally bugs me is liberality with alcohol both in amount and in allowing minors to drink in the name of "we're not tea-totaling Protestants."

Texas a couple years ago enacted a sobering (pun intended) deterrant that most people probably don't know about. If you, while driving, are stopped by police for some reason, and you have even a trace of alcohol in you - even if way below the legal limit - if you are transporting anyone under the age of 16 (or perhaps 16 and under), it's an automatic DWI FELONY (1st DUI is a misdemeanor, IIRC) - which carries with it a $1,000-per-year-for-3-years fee for your driver's license, as well as any other fines or prison time you might receive.

This was enacted because an alcoholic who had been sentenced to have one of those breathe-every-few-minutes-in-this-device-to-keep-your-car-going breathalyzers on his car was driving drunk and had his 5-year-old granddaughter or daughter breathe for him while sitting unstrapped in the front seat. He crashed and she was killed.

We learned this in Defensive Driving class a couple months ago.

Which means: On Sundays if we have the granddaughters at church (about once a month), and they serve wine, one (if not both) of us does NOT touch a drop of alcohol.

http://www.buckleuptexas.com/images/DrinkDriveGotoJail_1_000.JPG http://www.chomp.org/imgs/ewebeditor/ceyp_16a.jpg

- - -

Byzantine (Greek - GOC) chant is much more complex, IMO, than the Russian (OCA) chanting our church does. We were at a Greek church Saturday, and even though I could understand that they were singing O Gladsome Light (in Greek) - I have a CD of a presvytera singing it, so I recognized it - there was NO WAY, even if I had remembered the words, that I could have sung along!

[choirfiend]

In reality, you're not supposed to. That's why there is a trained/tonsured/appointed cantor. Not all traditions are convenient for nor appropriate for congregational singing.

[InnerPhyre]

I apologize for derailing this into a choir-ranting thread, but amen! I won't be in a choir if I can't make 80% of the rehearsals, even if most of the rehearsal time is spent working on notes and rhythms and stuff I do all day long and don't really need to rehearse. To me, it's a matter of having respect for the choir director and for the music itself. But what is really frustrating to me is that I show up for rehearsals, and the folks who can barely read music are the ones who only show up at the service.

My home parish had a core choir of six people that were great. But then we had several folks who just showed up on Sunday and sang their approximation of the music, totally negating the work the rest of us had put into it. It was so frustrating!
I much prefer parishes where the entire congregation sings to ones where everyone stands silent crossing themselves while the choir of only a few sings the whole thing. The liturgy is work and it is work that we as Orthodox Christians are meant to participate in as much as we are able to. Beautiful choirs are nice, but what is much nicer is a faithful church full of love and reverence that prays the liturgy together with their hearts and voices. We do not come to the liturgy to be observers. We come to worship. Pick up some older edition liturgy books, if you are able to find them, and you will see that the parts of the liturgy are not listed as:

Priest: In peace, let us pray to the Lord
Choir: Lord have mercy

But rather

Priest:In peace, let us pray to the Lord
People: Lord have mercy.


A beautiful choir is fantastic, but maybe it's better to look at a loud-chanting congregation not as ruining the liturgy, but as participating in it?

[Matrona]

I much prefer parishes where the entire congregation sings to ones where everyone stands silent crossing themselves while the choir of only a few sings the whole thing.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. It's really frustrating, though, to have to struggle through troparia I've never been allowed to see before, much less practice.

When people don't pay any attention to notes or direction in the music, it's hard for anyone to sing along, and hard to worship in the midst of everything.

[Jacob4707]

In reality, you're not supposed to. That's why there is a trained/tonsured/appointed cantor. Not all traditions are convenient for nor appropriate for congregational singing.

That is contrary to what our priest tells us. He encourages everyone to sing when the choir sings, and only be quiet when it's for the Reader, the Priest, or the Deacon to read or chant. Fortunately, Russian tones are not that difficult, and the same tunes are chanted most every week, so after a few weeks, most anyone can - and does - carry the tune unless they have a wooden ear. The Sunday bulletin always has the Troparia printed on the back page for us to follow along and sing with, with the accented word/syllable underlined for each verse.

[InnerPhyre]

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. It's really frustrating, though, to have to struggle through troparia I've never been allowed to see before, much less practice.

When people don't pay any attention to notes or direction in the music, it's hard for anyone to sing along, and hard to worship in the midst of everything.
Matrona, please don't misunderstand me. I didn't mean to point fingers at those who have trouble singing. Forgive me.

I also understand that in some jurisdictions, the music can be very hard to follow. I'd be lost trying to sing in some Greek parishes that I've been to, not becuase I don't speak Greek, but because of the tone of the chant that fluctuates all over the place. I'm OCA and OCA music tends to be more user-friendly and easier to follow.

[InnerPhyre]

That is contrary to what our priest tells us. He encourages everyone to sing when the choir sings, and only be quiet when it's for the Reader, the Priest, or the Deacon to read or chant. Fortunately, Russian tones are not that difficult, and the same tunes are chanted most every week, so after a few weeks, most anyone can - and does - carry the tune unless they have a wooden ear. The Sunday bulletin always has the Troparia printed on the back page for us to follow along and sing with, with the accented word/syllable underlined for each verse.
Mine too....as well as Archbishop Dmitri.

[gzt]

KATH: she's referring to the Byzantine style.

[Jacob4707]

Mine too....as well as Archbishop Dmitri.

Well, considering that our priest is directly under Archbishop +Dmitri and also serves at the Cathedral once a month ... I'm not surprised to learn that what Fr. Justin says is what +Dmitri says! :)

KATH: she's referring to the Byzantine style.

Gotcha. And if that's the case, I'll probably stay in an OCA or Antiochian church where the congregation can sing along, because Byzantine chant is indeed difficult to sing if one isn't trained.

[choirfiend]

Even then: vocalization does not necessarily equal participation, and vice versus. There's nothing wrong with offering your prayers in silence--it's what you do when the priest is praying, after all.

And yes, I'm in favor of congregation participation. I don't like churches where the people are completely silent and a choir sings everything alone, and even when visiting such a parish, I probably scandalize them a little by singing along from the congregation--but before ppl start insisting that people should sing everything all the time, they should go learn some about the history of our liturgics and musical development. There is a great portion of the Liturgy which really should be offered by the entire people--and there are times when the people should be silent in order to focus and hear and be instructed by the choir/cantor, most noticeably in the music that changes, such as troparia, kontakia, stichera, aposticha, and others. IF we did as much antiphonal singing as was done in the past, you would LEARN the troparia of the day by the 2 or 3rd or 4th time you heard it repeated by the priest and/or choir/cantor, at which point you would sing along wholeheartedly. But, with only a single singing of the troparia and such, I find that typically a person gets more out of it if they're not focusing on trying to follow a tone without music or rehearsal. The choir doesn't get to pray during church--they have to focus on that work of the Liturgy. It's a sacrifice they make for the congregation, so take advantage of it and don't negate it.

[Matrona]

Matrona, please don't misunderstand me. I didn't mean to point fingers at those who have trouble singing. Forgive me.

No, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not arguing against congregational participation (although if they do it's nice if they follow the music). My problem, as a choir member, is not being able to practice the music before having to sing it.

[ufonium2]

I'm not arguing against participation, either. But, I am arguing for responsible participation. By that I mean that if people are going to sing, they should make some effort to do it to the best of their ability. They can only sing the litany responses and other unchanging stuff if they don't read music. They can learn to read music, and if they know how to read music already, they can look at the music every once in a while, rather than just freestyling because it's easier.

This is actually a cause of domestic strife in my house. My husband is not a singer, but he minored in music (jazz guitar) in college. He can read music. But in church, he just chooses not to. Like most men, he's not a soprano. But rather than read the music and be bothered to think about a tenor or bass part, he sings along with the sopranos, kind of. It does not sound good.

So I'm wondering why we accept, and in some cases even advocate, this in the name of participation. We don't encourage people to participate in the iconography by lazily drawing stick figures on the walls when they feel like it. Why is it a good thing that people lazily sing whatever comes to mind during services?

[Theophorus]

I'm not arguing against participation, either. But, I am arguing for responsible participation. By that I mean that if people are going to sing, they should make some effort to do it to the best of their ability. They can only sing the litany responses and other unchanging stuff if they don't read music. They can learn to read music, and if they know how to read music already, they can look at the music every once in a while, rather than just freestyling because it's easier.

This is actually a cause of domestic strife in my house. My husband is not a singer, but he minored in music (jazz guitar) in college. He can read music. But in church, he just chooses not to. Like most men, he's not a soprano. But rather than read the music and be bothered to think about a tenor or bass part, he sings along with the sopranos, kind of. It does not sound good.

So I'm wondering why we accept, and in some cases even advocate, this in the name of participation. We don't encourage people to participate in the iconography by lazily drawing stick figures on the walls when they feel like it. Why is it a good thing that people lazily sing whatever comes to mind during services?

Regretfully, I have yet to see a parish offer the music to refer to. There is only a copy of the "lyrics" for the masses.

[jckstraw72]

I just read an essay by Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris where she talks about the aesthetic type of piety that wants everything done perfectly and gets irritated when even a note is wrong. im not saying anyone that has posted is that strict, but she talks about how its the heart, and love, that matters far beyond having the music be perfect.

[ufonium2]

My church has the music for every part of the liturgy except the troparia and kontakia in the books that are in the pews. The same is true for our mission parish. And for vespers, we have probably 20 folders with everything, stichera tones and verses and all, in them, and everyone who is at vespers takes one. Maybe you could ask the choir director for music, if your church doesn't distribute it. I doubt he/she would deny you.

[ThePilgrim]

I just read an essay by Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris where she talks about the aesthetic type of piety that wants everything done perfectly and gets irritated when even a note is wrong. im not saying anyone that has posted is that strict, but she talks about how its the heart, and love, that matters far beyond having the music be perfect.
Awesome! I just finished reading that same essay about two weeks ago...

[Matrona]

I just read an essay by Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris where she talks about the aesthetic type of piety that wants everything done perfectly and gets irritated when even a note is wrong. im not saying anyone that has posted is that strict, but she talks about how its the heart, and love, that matters far beyond having the music be perfect.

Look, I'm not talking about rigid adherence to the notes--I just want people to act like they give a crum how the music sounds and that everyone's on the same page. When they don't, it can become a stumbling-block for others.

[EmperorConstantine]

So yesterday I made this blog on my myspace of clips of Orthodox chant from youtube. All this talk of music and chant has inspired me to do the same here.

Anyway, here's my hypothesis on why the OCA has good music: good choir directors who had been raised in Protestant choir director families but then converted to Orthodoxy and learned the ways of Orthodox choir directing.

[jckstraw72]

Look, I'm not talking about rigid adherence to the notes--I just want people to act like they give a crum how the music sounds and that everyone's on the same page. When they don't, it can become a stumbling-block for others.

please dont think i meant my comment against you. i certianly agree that we should try to make the music sound good. this discussion just made me think of the essay, my comment wasnt meant to be directed towards anyone. sorry if i offended.

[choirfiend]

So yesterday I made this blog on my myspace of clips of Orthodox chant from youtube. All this talk of music and chant has inspired me to do the same here.

Anyway, here's my hypothesis on why the OCA has good music: good choir directors who had been raised in Protestant choir director families but then converted to Orthodoxy and learned the ways of Orthodox choir directing.
Umm, that's an interesting hypothesis, but I dont think so. Slavic music has quite the illustrious history when it comes to choral singing. Dont need no protestant praise and worship/hymnal experiences to enrich it.

[EmperorConstantine]

Umm, that's an interesting hypothesis, but I dont think so. Slavic music has quite the illustrious history when it comes to choral singing. Dont need no protestant praise and worship/hymnal experiences to enrich it.
Ah, I see what you mean.

[gzt]

Most of the good OCA choir directors I've known have or once had Slavic last names.

[Mary of Bethany]

Both the ones we've had are converts. But I agree with Choirfiend that it has more to do with the Slavic music, which I'm sure is much easier for most of us to sing than the Byzantine.

I've never sang the Byzantine music (except for one or two pieces that we do at times) but just from the foreign-ness to my ears, I'm sure I would have a difficult time learning it.

I'm glad we get lots of practice just for our OCA music!

Mary