I love you, man...

[Dust and Ashes]

I've just finished rereading The Lord of the Rings for the first time since I was a teen and some things have really jumped out at me.

In reading about the relationship between Frodo and Sam I noticed how easy it is to try to apply a homosexual bent to that much affection shown between dear friends. I am reminded of the relationship between David and Jonathan and how I've heard people say they were involved sexually.

It really irks me how over sexualized everything has become and how sex permeates almost every aspect of society.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Dust and Ashes]

How much does this limit male relationships?

[MariaRegina]

Special friendships are even discussed in monasticism.

Did you read Gifts of the Desert by Kyriacos Markides?

He mentioned how special friendships among the monastics (and this applies to men and women monastics) are to be avoided because the monastic is married to Christ and His Church in a spiritual sense.

So, monks are urged to avoid special friendships.

Women monastics are also urged to avoid special friendships, which can generate feelings of jealousy among other nuns, distractions from prayer, and rumors of impropriety even if the relationship is purely platonic.

And yes, when married men or women form exclusive friendships outside of the marriage, there is a risk of the spouse becoming upset and/or jealous because they feel somewhat upstaged and/or ignored.

Men or women can be married to their jobs in such a way that they are never home or even when they are home, they will bring their work or their job troubles home. So that when the children want to talk with dad at the dining room table, all they hear is dad saying, "Be quiet. I have to discuss a work problem with mom."

Then there are addictions ... like watching TV, viewing Christian Forums, the World Series, or anything else which can distract us from our family obligations and more importantly, from God.

[Dust and Ashes]

Interesting, I'd never thought about it that way but it makes sense. I guess David's and Jonathan's relationship was inappropriate just not for the reason many critics imply.

[Protoevangel]

Interesting, I'd never thought about it that way but it makes sense. I guess David's and Jonathan's relationship was inappropriate just not for the reason many critics imply.
Well, Aria is talking about monasticism. Not everyone is called to that strict lifestyle.

Also, look at the example of St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil. Extremely close friends, both monks and Bishops of exceptional repute.

[Dust and Ashes]

Well, Aria is talking about monasticism. Not everyone is called to that strict lifestyle.

Also, look at the example of St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil. Extremely close friends, both monks and Bishops of exceptional repute.

No, she spoke of married people as well.

[Dust and Ashes]

But, my issue isn't so much with the concept of "special" friends who go beyond normal friendship. I'm more interested in how society has become so sexualized that I can't embrace a dear friend and be affectionate without there being some sexual connotation to our affection.

[Mary of Bethany]

You're absolutely right, fs. It's hard for us to watch two men showing friendship like that portrayed in LOTR without putting a sexual connotation on it. Which is really too bad. Friendship is a wonderful thing. Frodo and Sam truly loved each other and Sam especially was willing to sacrifice himself to help Frodo.

I can remember when it wasn't unusual to see two girls or even young women holding hands as a sign of friendship. That doesn't happen now once girls get to school age, because people might think they're gay.

I frankly don't see how the remarks Aria gave should apply to most of us, as long as we don't let other friendships interfere with our marriage.

Mary

[Sacrum Silentium]

I agree.

All's comfy in Orthodoxy it seems, I rarely pass by a select group of male friends before services without a big hug and "Glory to Jesus Christ." I think that when people see a problem with people of the same sex being close, they were either raised in a closeminded biased sort of way, or they have repressed feelings of some sort; but that's me trying to look at things psychologically which is laughable itself.

I'm from the South. I was raised to naturally kind of steer away from male affection, it took me up until a few weeks ago to kiss Fathers hand, but it really had nothing to do with sexual connotation. It just went outside of my comfort level and he knew that. I think with the majority of our teen-based bachelor party society, when people aren't comfortable with what they see, they need to belittle it so they aren't intimidated by it. It's sad, really.

What can I say, other than 'real men hug'. :D

[rusmeister]

Lewis speaks about it in "The 4 Loves", I believe. I've learned there is great importance to same-sex friendship, esp. male - from the same secular men's group that (perhaps unintentionally) led me to Orthodoxy. If I can get to it I'll se if I can find the Lewis references.

I would not hurry to judge David and Jonathan's relations as 'inappropriate' - which is a modern word that has been bent all out of shape. Agree that monasticism has special rules, but in the world there is NOTHING that should stop us from having close friends, as long as we have our priorities straight.

And Mary, until recently, it was no big deal for kids and teens to hold hands with each other. Now, little by little, the associations with perversion are squeezing that out, even of the schools. :sigh:

[Dust and Ashes]

I would not hurry to judge David and Jonathan's relations as 'inappropriate' - which is a modern word that has been bent all out of shape. Agree that monasticism has special rules, but in the world there is NOTHING that should stop us from having close friends, as long as we have our priorities straight.

I agree wholeheartedly, I was just applying the rules Aria stated to their relationship and that made the "passing the love of women" aspect seem too "special" to be appropriate. I was, as usual, being a jerk. :sorry:

[MariaRegina]

Notice that I did use adjectives:

Special friendships
Exclusive friendships

Those are to be avoided whether a person is single, married or monastic.

Normal friendships that are not inappropriate are fine.


I went to a restaurant with a friend of many years and wouldn't you know .. people were making loud comments as if she and I were somehow gay. She felt so embarrassed and so did I.

The judgmental attitude, insinuations, and gossip that are present in this world and that also reflected here at CF is awful. TAW is somewhat of a haven, thank goodness, but not always.