Will Unbaptised People Go To Hell?

[AJB4]

I'm just wondering, what's the EO stance on this exactly. I know that in the EO church entry is through water baptism, but what of people who don't get baptised. Does that mean they're not saved?

[Rowan]

When I asked kind of the same thing a couple months ago, I received the answer that there is such a thing as Baptism of Desire. Pretty self-explanatory by the title, but I'm sure someone else more learned can fill in the details.

[Akathist]

I'm just wondering, what's the EO stance on this exactly. I know that in the EO church entry is through water baptism, but what of people who don't get baptised. Does that mean they're not saved?

Well, there are different acceptable understandings about the afterlife that people who are Eastern Orthodox can have.

However, I do not believe you will find anyone who will state that someone not Baptised is not saved. Who is saved or not saved is determined by God not by us.

Also, while I was baptised when I converted, many of the 10 people who entered the church on the same day (same parish) as I did were not baptised but entered the church through Christmation only.

My personal belief is that lack of baptism can not and will not limit God on what His decision is about anyone's salvation.

[repentant]

Actually EO Church entry is through Chrismation..

But those who never knew Christ or what Baptism was, will probably be judge according to their conscience, and people who know who Christ is, and deny Him and His Baptism will be judge according to that. To say all unbaptized will go to hell is something the EOC does not nor will ever think of saying..The EOC is a ship that Christ left us to reach salvation across the river. Maybe there will be some people who miss the ship and have to swim across..only God knows, and His Will be done.

[gzt]

Actually, hell is only for curious young children who ask such questions.

More seriously, not necessarily, as the righteous before Christ, the thief on the cross, and some martyrs who were catechumens [baptized in blood, as it were] were not baptized and are held to be saints. All who are saved are saved by Christ, that's the easiest way of putting it. But baptism is the normal path one must take.

[Breaking Babylon]

Father Mark explained it to me like this: For you and I, who are fully capable to be baptized and have heard the commandment to do so, are fully possible to be damned without it. God humbled Himself as an infant, and in His humanity was immersed, how can we say we follow the path of the Cross if not in that way also?

But will God not have mercy on someone who, for one serious reason or another, was not able to be baptized in the name of the Trinity? That's for Him to decide. We worship God, the lover of mankind, full of mercy and longsuffering towards us.

He went as far as to say, "Do you and I HAVE to be baptized? YES. We can and we should. But God will be merciful to those who were not able to."

[AJB4]

Growing up in the CoC (which teaches that all unbaptised people will go to hell). I've come to believe that baptism is definitely a part of God's plan for us, and to be obedient, we SHOULD do it, but that it's grace through faith that actually saves you.

Works don't save us, Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9&version=9) and Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=9;) clearly say so, and baptism is a work. That's how I've come to see it anyway.

[Protoevangel]

Works don't save us, Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9&version=9) and Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=9;) clearly say so, and baptism is a work. That's how I've come to see it anyway.
1 Peter 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:21;&version=49;)

Baptism saves.

Not as a work ("not the removal of the filth of the flesh"), but through faith, a grace given by God ("but the answer of a good conscience toward God").

[Matrona]

I think a slightly more accurate way of putting it is that what's received through baptism is required for salvation, and that one might come by that same grace through another source, such as martyrdom, in extraordinary circumstances.

[AJB4]

1 Peter 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:21;&version=49;)

Baptism saves.

Not as a work ("not the removal of the filth of the flesh"), but through faith, a grace given by God ("but the answer of a good conscience toward God").
Ah, thanks for that. I would definitely get baptised.

[AJB4]

Which takes me back to another question. I've forgotted what the EO church says the reason for baptising infants is. As they don't believe in the guilt (only the consequences) of the original sin (that's the Catholic reason for baptising infants). What is the EO reason for baptising infants again?

[EmperorConstantine]

Taken from wikipedia page on baptism, which was taken by an Orthodox church. http://www.stsophia.org/sacraments_baptism.pdf

"Why Infant Baptism?

Baptizing infants before they know what is going on is an expression of God's great love for us. It shows that God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know Him or love Him. It shows that we are wanted and loved by God from the very moment of our birth.

To say that a person must reach the age of reason and believe in Christ before he may be baptized is to make God's grace in some way dependent on man's intelligence. But God's grace is not dependent on any act of ours, intellectual or otherwise; it is a pure gift of His love."

[Dust and Ashes]

Taken from wikipedia page on baptism, which was taken by an Orthodox church. http://www.stsophia.org/sacraments_baptism.pdf

"Why Infant Baptism?

Baptizing infants before they know what is going on is an expression of God's great love for us. It shows that God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know Him or love Him. It shows that we are wanted and loved by God from the very moment of our birth.

To say that a person must reach the age of reason and believe in Christ before he may be baptized is to make God's grace in some way dependent on man's intelligence. But God's grace is not dependent on any act of ours, intellectual or otherwise; it is a pure gift of His love."

:thumbsup:

Jesus said that unless we become as little children we couldn't enter the Kingdom of Heaven, He didn't say unless children become as reasoning adults they can't.

[AJB4]

:thumbsup:

Jesus said that unless we become as little children we couldn't enter the Kingdom of Heaven, He didn't say unless children become as reasoning adults they can't.
Very true. I read this

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7067.asp

I like this article. It seems that the whole 'believer-only baptism' thing was a later introduction.

[MichaelArchangelos]

While works don't save us, you have to understand that faith without works is dead. Holy Scripture clearly states:

"What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?.......Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?......For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:14, 24, 26).

These works don't "save" us as such, but without them, our faith is dead. A Hindu can say the Akathist to the Theotokos every day for his whole life, attend daily Vespers and Divine Liturgy on Sunday, but his works mean nothing because he has no faith. God in His grace chooses to bestow value upon our works. He does not have to do this. But He chooses freely and graciously to do so. That chotki which I pray today is, again speaking just of the thing itself, worth nothing. But when God chooses to attach His grace to that work, and bestows value upon it, suddenly that very same Rosary carries great grace with it.
Here's the analogy I use. If a woman comes over to my house (presuming I'm single, which I'm not) and makes dinner for me, cleans the bedrooms, does the laundry, etc., all of these works do nothing to change her status - she's at most a good friend, but certainly not my wife. No work that she does could make her my wife - she could even give her body to me in carnal embrace, and that would not make her my wife.

What makes her my wife is when I choose, freely, and graciously, to love her and ask her to marry me. Then, suddenly, all of those same works that she does - making the dinner, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, etc. - take on a new meaning. Now they are acts of love from her to me, and they take on great value in my sight, because I see that she's doing these things out of love.

[AJB4]

While works don't save us, you have to understand that faith without works is dead. Holy Scripture clearly states:

"What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?.......Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?......For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:14, 24, 26).

These works don't "save" us as such, but without them, our faith is dead. A Hindu can say the Akathist to the Theotokos every day for his whole life, attend daily Vespers and Divine Liturgy on Sunday, but his works mean nothing because he has no faith. God in His grace chooses to bestow value upon our works. He does not have to do this. But He chooses freely and graciously to do so. That chotki which I pray today is, again speaking just of the thing itself, worth nothing. But when God chooses to attach His grace to that work, and bestows value upon it, suddenly that very same Rosary carries great grace with it.
Here's the analogy I use. If a woman comes over to my house (presuming I'm single, which I'm not) and makes dinner for me, cleans the bedrooms, does the laundry, etc., all of these works do nothing to change her status - she's at most a good friend, but certainly not my wife. No work that she does could make her my wife - she could even give her body to me in carnal embrace, and that would not make her my wife.

What makes her my wife is when I choose, freely, and graciously, to love her and ask her to marry me. Then, suddenly, all of those same works that she does - making the dinner, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, etc. - take on a new meaning. Now they are acts of love from her to me, and they take on great value in my sight, because I see that she's doing these things out of love.
Thanks. MichaelArchangelos, the parable-teller ;)

Hope you had a good time in Malaysia.

[jckstraw72]

More seriously, not necessarily, as the righteous before Christ, the thief on the cross,

just on this note -- the thief died before Christ died and rose again, so there was no Christian baptism at his time, as St. Paul tells us it is our rising and dying with Christ -- thats something I thought of to combat Evangelicals who counter with "but the thief on the cross wasn't baptized!"

[Michael the Iconographer]

Only God determines who is in Heaven and who is in Hell.

[Naozane]

As many have pointed out, salvation is entirely determined by God's grace. I know there's a strong bias in the direction of the hope and fervent prayer that ALL will be saved in most of the circles I move in. As Scripture tells us, God DOES love all His creation and as such gives us the opportunity to receive His sublime grace.

I should really come prepared with better references, so apologies in advance for an off-the-cuff (or from-the-hip, whichever you prefer) contribution to the thread...

Anyway - I've also heard the idea that condemnation is primarily reserved for those who actively resist or reject God's grace. This idea goes hand in hand with the notion that the soul's condition after death can be improved through prayer and intercession, coupled with that soul's willingness to accept God's grace. I seem to recall that being brought up in Markides' The Mountain of Silence, but I could be wrong in my recollection.

Essentially, God will save who He wills. While baptism and good works sure don't hurt, all they guarantee is that you've been baptized and done some good stuff. Neither does going to church, receiving the Eucharist, and so on and so forth. At the heart of it lies the simple fact that only God can weigh a soul and determine the measure of grace to be apportioned. Since we are completely unable to know the mind of God (despite many very clever people trying very hard to do so), we are similarly completely unable to accurately predict who among us will be saved. That said, we can sure work on our own salvation and help with the salvation of others through prayer, fasting, discipline, love, kindness, and whatnot. Even these, though, are secondary concerns. The only thing that will carry the day is grace.

A friend of mine put it the following way: come the Judgement, we'll be shocked at two things. The first will be some of the folk that God does save, and the second will be some of the folk that He doesn't.

[buzuxi02]

The spurious belief that unbaptised people/ babies go to hell originated within the Roman Church under Augustine because of the influence of his false belief of original sin.
The roman understanding of original sin was/is that man inherits the guilt of Adam's transgression and so God punishes us by death. Only baptism can wash away that "guilt". Orthodoxy rejects this and states we only inherit the fruit of Ancestral sin which is death, thus death is the enemy of God, which Christ came to abolish.

We Orthodox also believes that we only get a foretaste of the hereafter..
The fullness of rewards and/or punishments will occur at the second coming when Jesus Christ Judges all of mankind in their bodies.
The Lord Jesus Christ is a righteous and merciful Judge and all will be judged accordingly to their deeds.

For christians we are called to obey certain basic practices, of which baptism is one. Speculation on the state of the soul of an unbaptised deceased person is none of our business. St Paul made this clear when he answered on those christians who have reposed, how they will meet the Lord in the air, he prefered to remain silent on those outside of christianity although fully knowing they too will be ressurected. (see 1THESS 4.13-18) .

[Akathist]

Growing up in the CoC (which teaches that all unbaptised people will go to hell). I've come to believe that baptism is definitely a part of God's plan for us, and to be obedient, we SHOULD do it, but that it's grace through faith that actually saves you.

Works don't save us, Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9&version=9) and Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=9;) clearly say so, and baptism is a work. That's how I've come to see it anyway.

1 Peter 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:21;&version=49;)

Baptism saves.

Not as a work ("not the removal of the filth of the flesh"), but through faith, a grace given by God ("but the answer of a good conscience toward God").

I am not sure that these two posts accurately describes the salvation theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Please consult your local Eastern Orthodox Priest on these matters.