Orthodoxy and Calvinism

[Knowledge3]

Does the teaching(s) of the Orthodox Church reject the doctrines of John Calvin and Calvinism?

[Lotar]

Yes.

Read about the Synod of Jerusalem. ;)

[Knowledge3]

That's what I thought.

Another Christian "doctrine" as a result of the Protestant Reformation.

But not all Protestants are heterodox.

[Orthosdoxa]

But not all Protestants are heterodox.

They are, otherwise they'd be Orthodox.

LK

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Yes, it does reject them, and that's one of my favorite things about Orthodoxy. :D I've had some run-ins with Calvinism in the past. Not pretty.....

As for "heterodox," it's probably best to avoid such terms. My priest says that Catholics and Protestants are Christians, too. Different writers suggest remembering the good things about where you came from--that it's what helped lead you to Orthodoxy. I've been trying to use the term "incorrect" instead. After all, if the denominations were correct, I'd still be Protestant.....

[EmperorConstantine]

I find the term "in error" works well.

[ufonium2]

"hetero" just means "different." So "heterodox" just means they believe differently than we do, which is true.

[Adammi]

(Calvinist asking a question)

Are Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic views really so different from Calvinism?
The reason I ask is that it is studying the soteriological views of the EO and the RCC that led me to Calvinism.
In Armenian Prot sects I had never heard anyone say that we couldn't even come to God were it not for God's grace permitting us to. This is what I heard in the EO and the RCC and also from Calvinists.
So, in this regard, would you say that Calvinists are closer to you than are Armenians?

[EmperorConstantine]

(Calvinist asking a question)

Are Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic views really so different from Calvinism?


So, in this regard, would you say that Calvinists are closer to you than are Armenians?
First question: Catholicism and Orthodoxy are two separate entities but have somewhat of the same roots. But are Calvinist/Orthodox views so different from Calvinism/Orthodoxy so different? Yes.

Second question: Armenian Orthodox or Armenian Catholics? And by closer would you mean closer in theology or worship?

[Adammi]

Armenian Orthodox or Armenian Catholics? And by closer would you mean closer in theology or worship?

Armenian Protestants and I meant in soteriology.

[EmperorConstantine]

Well, there is the whole Theosis bit, but I find that a little hard to understand and explain.

Anyone else care to explain?

[Knowledge3]

Well, there is the whole Theosis bit, but I find that a little hard to understand and explain.

Anyone else care to explain?

Theosis is the final stage of purification and the full communion of the soul which has united itself to God.

[EmperorConstantine]

True. I just did not feel up to explaining the whole process of purification.

[Breaking Babylon]

What K3 said. :)

And to add a little, it's attaining the state of soul before the Fall. Theosis is what Adam and Eve originally had, before He hid Himself from them.

[Matrona]

Armenian Protestants and I meant in soteriology.

You're getting the name wrong. You're talking about Arminians, followers of the Protestant reformer Jacobus Arminius. The term "Arminian" is commonly used by Calvinists to refer to anyone and everyone who rejects predestination and other seminal Calvinist beliefs.

Armenians are people from the southern Caucasian country known as Armenia, where the Armenian Apostolic Christian tradition (and a non-Chalcedonian one at that) comes from. Historically, they are not related to Arminians, they just happen to have a similar name.

[Matrona]

What K3 said. :)

And to add a little, it's attaining the state of soul before the Fall. Theosis is what Adam and Eve originally had, before He hid Himself from them.

IIRC, St. Irenaeus thought that Adam and Eve were created as spiritual children - not quite grown into their Father's shoes, I suppose - and that the Fall was their first faulty step in their track towards God. Consequently, what we gain through theosis is more than just a return to what was before.

It's kind of late, so I may not be communicating this very well, but Orthodox theologians have used this to argue (and I believe St. Irenaeus himself argued the same) that the Incarnation would have taken place even if we had not fallen.

[kamikat]

Armenian Protestants and I meant in soteriology.

I assume you mean Arminian, not Armenians, people from the Eurasian country of Armenia ;)


The Orthodox still believe that man must act in cooperation with God's Grace and that man can reject that Grace. Do Calvinists believe that as well?

[Michael the Iconographer]

Is calvinism the same thing as reading the cartoon Calvin and Hobbes on a very regular basis?

[Knowledge3]

Is calvinism the same thing as reading the cartoon Calvin and Hobbes on a very regular basis?

lol No.

Calvinism is a strict doctrinal Protestant soteriology that God only died in terms of limited Atonement with His foreknowledge of the saved and elect.

[rusmeister]

Dude, do you think I am stupid? I know full well what Jean Calvin taught. I was JOKING!!!

Maybe you should have your doc give you some xanax.
Hey Michael, relax!
You don't know what K3 knows.
Personally, I got the joke. Delayed laughter response.........^_^

That concept of Calvinism sounds like a cheap God, counting out exactly who His death was going to pay for; kind of like budgeting His mercy. :sick: (This may not be what Calvinists actually teach - or is it?)

[EmperorConstantine]

I think Calvinism says that not only is it just a select few that go to heaven, but from the moment of conception it has already been decided if you go to heaven or hell.

If the above is true, which I think is close to it, than this begs the questions:

If it is from the moment you are conceived and only a few people actually go to heaven, than what about the aborted babies of the world?

Can you figure out if you're going to heaven or not? If so, than to me, a man can run around being Stalin number two and still go to heaven. If that is so, than there is obviously a lack of accountability in Calvinism.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hey Michael, relax!
You don't know what K3 knows.
Personally, I got the joke. Delayed laughter response.........^_^

That concept of Calvinism sounds like a cheap God, counting out exactly who His death was going to pay for; kind of like budgeting His mercy. :sick: (This may not be what Calvinists actually teach - or is it?)
Actually, if you ever read Calvin and Hobbes, Calvin's view of God is very Calvinist (religion). He has a very austere view of God, very unlike that of the Orthodox view of God.

[Knowledge3]

Dude, do you think I am stupid? I know full well what Jean Calvin taught. I was JOKING!!!

Maybe you should have your doc give you some xanax.

I did not mention any stupidity on behalf of anyone, and neither did I request any xanax.

[Knowledge3]

To tell the truth, I am as serious about Orthodoxy as a mother Grizzly bear protecting one of her cubs.

So don't jack with me. Alright?

[Michael the Iconographer]

To tell the truth, I am as serious about Orthodoxy as a mother Grizzly bear protecting one of her cubs.

So don't jack with me. Alright?
Then maybe you should listen more and talk less, cuz you seem to think that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are very similar, and they are not at all alike.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Could we get back to the original topic, please? This is not something I normally ask, but this thread has taken a disturbing turn.

[Knowledge3]

Could we get back to the original topic, please? This is not something I normally ask, but this thread has taken a disturbing turn.

Yes Ma'am, we can.

The original topic is how the Orthodox Church views her distinct Christology in comparison with the Reformed doctrine of John Calvin.

It has produced a "formula" of dogmatic teaching called the 5 TULIP(s).

What my goal is, is to research and discern the truth about what Orthodoxy teaches in relation to Christ and the comparison to Calvinism.

My doctrinal goal as a Cathechumen is to become a learner.

[Jacob4707]

Calvinism is a tulip, whereas Orthodoxy is a rose.

http://home.zonnet.nl/fred.kitty/calvin/A_read.gif

[Adammi]

I'm very interested in this thread.
I would really like to know the Orthodox perspective on each of the five points of Calvinism, which are:

Total Depravity
Irresistible Grace
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Perseverance of the Saints

[Michael the Iconographer]

Calvinism is a tulip, whereas Orthodoxy is a rose.

http://home.zonnet.nl/fred.kitty/calvin/A_read.gif
The picture of Calvin rocks!

[Jacob4707]

I'm very interested in this thread.
I would really like to know the Orthodox perspective on each of the five points of Calvinism, which are:

Total Depravity
Irresistible Grace
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Perseverance of the Saints

I can only speak as an uninformed catechumen, but:

1. No one is totally depraved. Man's image or likeness of God has been marred (some Orthodox theology distinguishes between "image" and "likeness" and says that man kept the image, but lost the likeness, or it was marred - however, James says that men are in God's likeness), but not lost. His entire being is not depraved, so he is not "totally depraved."

2. The grace of God can be resisted, at least in this life.

3. While no one is saved apart from the grace of God - it's all by the grace of God - there is some of what "by-faith-alone" Protestants sometimes disparage as a "synergy." While God is the one who in us gives the desire and the ability ("to will and to work," as some Bibles translate the infinitives in Philippians), yet we are to work out our salvation. Paul mentions how he trains and disciplines his body so that he might not lose the prize or be counted as reprobate at the end.

4. Christ died for all men. No one but God knows who can or will be saved.

5. See 3.

Forgive me any errors I make or state.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I can only speak as an uninformed catechumen, but:

1. No one is totally depraved. Man's image or likeness of God has been marred (some Orthodox theology distinguishes between "image" and "likeness" and says that man kept the image, but lost the likeness, or it was marred - however, James says that men are in God's likeness), but not lost. His entire being is not depraved, so he is not "totally depraved."

2. The grace of God can be resisted, at least in this life.

3. While no one is saved apart from the grace of God - it's all by the grace of God - there is some of what "by-faith-alone" Protestants sometimes disparage as a "synergy." While God is the one who in us gives the desire and the ability ("to will and to work," as some Bibles translate the infinitives in Philippians), yet we are to work out our salvation. Paul mentions how he trains and disciplines his body so that he might not lose the prize or be counted as reprobate at the end.

4. Christ died for all men. No one but God knows who can or will be saved.

5. See 3.

Forgive me any errors I make or state.
You did a pretty good job summing the Orthodox view of these issues! :thumbsup:

[Adammi]

Thanks for your answers.