The pledge of allegiance

[zhilan]

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[Breaking Babylon]

This crossed my mind just a couple of days ago actually. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it at this point, but it does make me slightly uncomfortable.

[Michael the Iconographer]

My grandfathers both fought in WWII for you to be able to have the right to live under that flag. That flag is the symbol of your freedom to disagree with all it represents, which I dare say would land you in prison in many other countries.

[Michael the Iconographer]

If anyone doesn't like the country they live in, doesn't believe what this country stands for, and doesn't feel comfortable having the American flag flying over their heads, they are always free to leave it and go to another country where they are much less free to disagree with the state position on things.

[Khaleas]

Don't know but Finland has pretty darn strict rules about how to treat a flag (I'd say in some cases stricter than the US). Ours can't even be up at night with light. And our military honors the flag and what it stands for each and every day. Just like a member of the US military is expected to do.
The flag is a direct symbol of the country it represents. I'm not even a citizen and I have the outmost respect for the flag and for the Pledge.
It also symbolizes that you're free to leave whenever you'd like if you don't agree!

[Dust and Ashes]

I used to be all about waving the flag and would get misty listening to the Star Spangled Banner or God Bless the U.S.A. Now, I don't feel very patriotic. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for being born with the opportunities available here in the US but I now look at America like any other nation or empire that has risen and fallen throughout history. Nations and governments come and go but Orthodoxy abides timelessly.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Don't know but Finland has pretty darn strict rules about how to treat a flag (I'd say in some cases stricter than the US). Ours can't even be up at night with light. And our military honors the flag and what it stands for each and every day. Just like a member of the US military is expected to do.
The flag is a direct symbol of the country it represents. I'm not even a citizen and I have the outmost respect for the flag and for the Pledge.
It also symbolizes that you're free to leave whenever you'd like if you don't agree!
:bow: And that is coming from a lady who isn't even a citizen of the United States!

[Khaleas]

I used to be all about waving the flag and would get misty listening to the Star Spangled Banner or God Bless the U.S.A. Now, I don't feel very patriotic. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for being born with the opportunities available here in the US but I now look at America like any other nation or empire that has risen and fallen throughout history. Nations and governments come and go but Orthodoxy abides timelessly.
I like that last part and it's very true!

[Michael the Iconographer]

I used to be all about waving the flag and would get misty listening to the Star Spangled Banner or God Bless the U.S.A. Now, I don't feel very patriotic. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for being born with the opportunities available here in the US but I now look at America like any other nation or empire that has risen and fallen throughout history. Nations and governments come and go but Orthodoxy abides timelessly.
I love my country, am very glad to have been born here, but I do understand that God does not put a teflon coating on any nation/state to protect it from it's own bad decisions. But that being said, I have total respect for the flag and the national anthem.

[zhilan]

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[Dust and Ashes]

This is sort of my feeling. It's not that I don't like America or anything. It's not even an issue with America, it's the issue of pledging allegiance to any country. Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm looking for guidance because if feels wrong to me. And this is something I struggle with as a member of the military. I see people in the military a lot where it seems like American is a religion or something. And it bothers me. That may be wrong that it bothers me. As my job, my duty and allegiance is supposed to be to my country, but I feel wrong about that and I'm not sure what to do.

I understand where you're coming from on this. Since becoming Orthodox, I'm much more cautious of what I say or even passively give my assent. If someone is prattling on about some blasphemous idea and I'm sitting there nodding, I'm assenting to what they are saying.

If I pledge allegiance to the flag, am I pledging allegiance to the flag that flew over Iwo Jima or the flag on the planes that bombed Orthodox Churches in Serbia? They are the same. :scratch: Tough call.

[zhilan]

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[drpepper101]

The flag is an icon, not a religious one, but an icon all the same. It represents the ideas, the state, the people, and everything else that makes the United States the United States. If you can't be loyal to earthly powers then how are you going to hope to be a good subject of God? I spent four years in ROTC and eight years active waiting for the day that Soviet tanks would roll into western Germany because I believed that the values of the US were superior to those of the communists and I still believe that was the case. Yes, we were hardcore about it because we lived waiting for a day that we might be asked to die proving it. Treating the flag with respect was the same as treating our own lives with respect, in that uniform the two things were woven into one. I don't see why that would be any different for soldiers today.

I'm sure to a lot of those that enlisted for college money or other perks probably do think the die hards seem like extremists It's part of the problem in mixing people that are patriots and people that enlisted for perks.

[zhilan]

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[rusmeister]

As to treating the flag a certain way, it's called veneration. We'd do the same with a photograph of dearly departed mom. Nothing wrong with it. You can love your homeland, which the flag represents, while not loving the government that's temporarily running things in it.

There's nothing particularly sacred about the text of the pledge. But pledges have long been required for citizenship, which makes sense, because otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as treason - deliberating betraying your country (again, the people in it, really, rather than the government) for material or ideological reasons.

Allegiance means that you are allied to something. As long as it's under God (so you have your priorities straight) there's nothing wrong with it. I suppose being asked to go against the Christian Faith would 'violate' the contract, so to speak.

[Matrona]

Why are we pledging allegiance to a -flag- or a -country-? Shouldn't our only allegiance be to God? Should we treat a flag like it is something sacred like an icon or something? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong, it's just something that bothers me sometimes and I'm wondering how to deal with it. When I say "I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the United States of America" I feel wrong in saying that. I don't pledge allegiance to any flag, my allegiance is to God and the Church. Has anyone else struggled with this?

I'm on your side. I stopped saying the pledge when I was in high school. Back then I wasn't a believer and we weren't exactly at war, just or otherwise. NATO was bombing Serbia at the time, but back then I didn't know Serbia from a hole in the ground so that didn't have anything to do with it. I simply didn't believe in pledging allegiance to a flag of a country that, IMHO, did not take my interests seriously.

I believe that our relationship with God is the most important thing in our lives, and in our every deliberation that cause is paramount. We are called to direct our countries to righteous causes, not blindly support it whether we're chasing after a monster who wants to destroy the world, or some worthless, sabre-rattling tin-pot dictator. Patriotism is not a virtue. It's more like a gun: relatively safe in the hands of a responsible person, but unbelievably dangerous when coupled with irrationality and belligerence.

As for the national anthem... I don't even KNOW the national anthem. I had to look it up just now. ^_^

[drpepper101]

If everyone were a die hard patriot, wouldn't that be a very scary thing?

When those people are going to be asked to fight and die for the country then it's a very scary thing when they aren't die hard patriots. I certainly would not want a platoon of men under my command that were there for the college money. People bleed and die for something they believe in deeply. The others are just mercenaries, and you cannot trust a mercenary. What good is the GI Bill if you aren't around to use it?

If the flag is an icon that that makes me feel even more problematic.

Why do you think that armies since the time of the Roman legions have brought banners and flags into battle? It's no longer practical to carry them in the traditional fashion, but think about some of the great scenes of WW2. The flag going up on Iwo Jima as a simple of American victory or dropping the American flag over the Nazi Eagle in Berlin. In a literal fashion it was nothing more than putting cloth over a metal statue, but the symbolism said it all, total victory. Traditionaly capturing flags meant the defeat of an army, or division of that army, because the only way you could get their flag was to defeat them. Flags and banners have a powerful effect on people, especially those given to military service.

It took me a long time, basically an entire year AFTER I committed myself to Orthodoxy to be able to kiss the icons. Now I do and its something I love to do and I see its power. Perhaps this is what scares me about making other icons...

I think it's a matter of separating religious icons from secular ones. You encounter hundreds of icons, they aren't of equal importance. The Bose logo on my computer speakers is an icon of that company, a person given authority to speak on behalf of an organziation is an icon of that group, and so on and so forth.

[jckstraw72]

you could pledge allegiance to America in that its your home and your family and friends are here, but know in your mind and heart that that allegiance is at least second to your allegiance to God.

[zhilan]

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[buzuxi02]

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and tha authorities that exist are appointed by God" ROM 13.1

"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good". 1 PET 2.13-14

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's". -the Lord Jesus Christ

I dont see a problem with it.

[MichaelArchangelos]

We have nothing even remotely resembling the Pledge of Allegiance in New Zealand. And pretty much the only time we ever hear the National Anthem is at rugby matches.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Wow....you scare me.

BTW did you know that it is possible to be in the military and not have done it just for the college money and also not be blindly devoted to America as if it were your God?
If you do not follow the orders of the leaders of your country without question, then I do not want you in the military of the United States.

[repentant]

If you do not follow the orders of the leaders of your country without question, then I do not want you in the military of the United States.


Would you follow the orders of your leaders without question if they told you to go into an Orthodox Church and kill everyone inside?

[Dust and Ashes]

My friend who was in the Army for 9 years told me that when he was in Germany during the 80s that they had standing orders to clear the roads in the event the Soviets crossed the Berlin wall. They were told to just shoot any German civilians who got in their way. He was a big time patriot and said he would do whatever he was ordered to do.

I know he could have just been dramatizing because he knew that kind of stuff got under my skin but it was still disturbing. He also said they had been polled on who would/wouldn't fire on American civilians if ordered to do so. Again, he said he would do whatever he was ordered to do.

Not having served any length of time in the military, I can't say how accurate any of that is or not but I could see the "without question" part up to a point. If I'm ordered on a mission which is certainly a one way trip, I can see doing it. That's part of the job. If it's something clearly wrong, that's different.

When they were writing "Happy Easter" on the bombs they dropped on Orthodox Churches and monasteries in Serbia, I don't know what I would have done.

[Khaleas]

Don't forget that when you are in uniform you do represent that country officially. You represent the flag you bear on your arm. You represent what that country stands for. If you have an issue doing that then it's time to reconsider. The military isn't about individualism and soloing - it's about a group mentality and a common goal. Of course you can disagree with something personally but if you serve under the flag then that should be your mindset officially and your own personal one should not interfere with it.
There's a good reason for it too. Everyone has the same goal, everyone generally reacts in the same way. With the expectation of everyone acting the same way, there is more chance of safety and survival.
As a lower ranking person you have the option of going against an order if it will put the unit in harms way. Sure it's a hassle but if you're completely right it's not going to hurt you. But you'd better be completely right!
It's funny how everyone blames the US for Bosnia. It was an operation mainly planned by France and Holland. However, they didn't have the firepower and money so who do they call on - the US. Then the US can take the blame for it too. I'm not saying that the US was completely without fault but there are many other factors involved too. Writing Happy Easter is part of the 'soloing' and I'm positive it wasn't an order - but that is what the media shows us.
And regards to money. If I had a dollar for every reservist I've heard saying: But I didn't think I could be sent to war, I only did it for getting money for college. I'd be rich! Note to self: Read the fine print! (and I believe it's not even that fine).

[Michael the Iconographer]

Don't forget that when you are in uniform you do represent that country officially. You represent the flag you bear on your arm. You represent what that country stands for. If you have an issue doing that then it's time to reconsider. The military isn't about individualism and soloing - it's about a group mentality and a common goal. Of course you can disagree with something personally but if you serve under the flag then that should be your mindset officially and your own personal one should not interfere with it.
There's a good reason for it too. Everyone has the same goal, everyone generally reacts in the same way. With the expectation of everyone acting the same way, there is more chance of safety and survival.
As a lower ranking person you have the option of going against an order if it will put the unit in harms way. Sure it's a hassle but if you're completely right it's not going to hurt you. But you'd better be completely right!
It's funny how everyone blames the US for Bosnia. It was an operation mainly planned by France and Holland. However, they didn't have the firepower and money so who do they call on - the US. Then the US can take the blame for it too. I'm not saying that the US was completely without fault but there are many other factors involved too. Writing Happy Easter is part of the 'soloing' and I'm positive it wasn't an order - but that is what the media shows us.
And regards to money. If I had a dollar for every reservist I've heard saying: But I didn't think I could be sent to war, I only did it for getting money for college. I'd be rich! Note to self: Read the fine print! (and I believe it's not even that fine).
Yeah, kind of like my x-girlfriend who was in the military to pay for her medical school, and didn't think she would be actually sent to Iraq as a memeber of the Army Reserves and then actually was sent over. She actually went active duty after Iraq because she said it lessens her chance og being sent back, and they even let her keep her full rank of Lt. Colonel when switching.

[Matrona]

Writing Happy Easter is part of the 'soloing' and I'm positive it wasn't an order - but that is what the media shows us.

Probably not, but it does give an insight into the mentality of the soldiers dropping bombs on these churches.

And regards to money. If I had a dollar for every reservist I've heard saying: But I didn't think I could be sent to war, I only did it for getting money for college. I'd be rich! Note to self: Read the fine print! (and I believe it's not even that fine).

Yeah, the Man tried to get me to join the reserves when I was in high school, but as high-strung as I am, I knew I wouldn't last a day in the military. I was fortunate enough to not need it for college money, and lucky thing too, because 9/11 happened two weeks after I turned eighteen.

[The Prokeimenon!]

I simply didn't believe in pledging allegiance to a flag of a country that, IMHO, did not take my interests seriously.

With only 300 million people, it's surprising that your interests have been overlooked. Perhaps you should write a letter to the government informing them of your interests, so that they can start taking those interests more seriously.

Rdr Moses

[VickiY]

This is an interesting issue. However, and at the risk of disagreeing with Mike, I have to say that this reminds me of the story of St. Theodore the Recruit. He was martyred for refusing to sacrifice to the pagan gods (OK, MAYBE burning down a pagan temple had something to do with why the authorities got so hopping mad at him). Point being, he was given an order while he was in service in the army, and because it went against his faith, he refused the order, and was executed.

I should think that an Orthodox soldier who refused to bomb an Orthodox monastery on the orders of his commanding officer would be court-martialed, be dishonourably discharged, and probably imprisoned or executed for his act of refusing to do something against God and the Orthodox Church.

I think we tend to "disconnect" from the fact that this is the same mindset that our martyred soldier saints had...they served their countries, but when their country ordered them to stop serving God, they chose disgrace, imprisonment, and execution rather than go against God.

Are we brave enough to accept martyrdom (a court-martial, disgrace, and execution) for God? The choice of the soldier in the present day is the same as in the past...serve with honour or die in shame and dishonour. The question is, do we remember that God may regard earthly dishonour as nothing, compared to a martyr's crown?

What of the 40th martyr at Sebaste?

Being martyred for one's faith is not just something that happened a long time ago.

[/reflective thoughts in general]

I'd talk to an Orthodox military chaplain about how you feel about the religion of Americanism.

Patriotism and cohesiveness are vital in the military, and soldiers must trust their team completely.

If, after talking to your spiritual father and an Orthodox chaplain, you feel that you are still of divided mind, you may wish to consider other career options after your term of enlistment is up.

I say all this (she says ducking and running) as a member of a family with many officers and non-com army, and marines. I think that military orders should be obeyed unless they specifically conflict with one's duty to God. And if that means disgrace and martyrdom...then you'd be in good company.

[Khaleas]

Probably not, but it does give an insight into the mentality of the soldiers dropping bombs on these churches.


Guarantee you that it didn't say Happy Easter on every one of those bombs that were dropped. It's a case of soloing for a few guys and most likely those guys were 18-19 years old. I hope we can all say we made great judgements when we were that age. I for sure didn't! Plus, I have a feeling they might have even gotten reprimanded for it - but they media is not going to report on that. It's not sensational.
And when the officer makes sure everything is working on the plane he's more concerned with that everything is attached correctly and probably won't even notice that they wrote something on the bomb. Each person has a specific duty and the other people trust that that person gets it done the right way. Aviation guys don't get too mean to maintenance because they keep them alive. I can guarantee you that the persons who dropped the bombs had nothing to do with what was written on them. They didn't even put the bomb on that plane.
I would really avoid generalizing when it comes to the military and everything else. There are bad apples there (God help me, I know, while hubs was legal officer dealt with everything from drive by shootings to assault, to drugs to what not, they're kids - most kids test all that in college, but things are a little tougher when these guys can put someone in danger doing so - still they are kids). But there are bad apples everywhere, in church, at work, but we're not going around saying that everyone who works at x place are stupid.

[kamikat]

Look, our country may not be perfect, but it's the best thing going. As military, you may have to do things that you don't want to do, but you also have the chance to do some good in the world. Sure, we've all seen the pictures of the horrible things the US military has done, but on a day to day basis, the soldiers and marines are bringing aid and comfort to civillians. Look, when my grandfather was a member of the diplomatic corp in the 50's and 60's, he had to say and do repugnant things in order to be allowed to stay in his post in Pakistan. At the same time, however, he was running Soviet dissidents over the border from the USSR into Afganistan and Pakistan. In the larger picture, he was doing good work. You are the only one who can decide if the ends justify the means. When I asked the kid nextdoor, who recently came home after a year tour in Iraq, he said it was. They were helping families on a daily basis. Would they have needed his help if we weren't there to begin with, who knows, but now the help is needed.

[Matrona]

With only 300 million people, it's surprising that your interests have been overlooked. Perhaps you should write a letter to the government informing them of your interests, so that they can start taking those interests more seriously.

Rdr Moses

Since I can detect that your post wasn't written with a sincere tone, I think you should know that I was much more politically active when I was in high school, and in that setting it can be quite frustrating to be stymied by age-based prejudices held by others.

[rusmeister]

There are reasons why age might prejudice someone. If a 5-year-old started making political statements, we would all be a little prejudiced, I think. A 16-yr old hasn't had time to get married, much less get divorced, and so could not offer an in-depth understanding of those problems that a 30 or 40 yr old, who could well have experienced both, could. I would not take the advice of that 16 yr old with great gravity in regards to my hypothetical marriage problems.

This is not to say that young people can't offer startling and valuable insight. But pound for pound, or year for year, all other things being equal, the older a person is the more likely they are to have broad experience in a wide range of situations that is worth listening to.

It isn't fair to assume that an older person is being unfair in taking age into account, as you would agree regarding the 5 yr old, I am sure.

[Matrona]

It isn't fair to assume that an older person is being unfair in taking age into account, as you would agree regarding the 5 yr old, I am sure.

I'm perfectly well aware that there are valid reasons to treat some people differently based on their ages; there is no reason whatsoever, and I have given you none, for you to have argued that point with me.

In my case - and I don't mean to be furtive - things were a fair bit more complicated than that. There aren't a lot of decisions my high-school-self made that I would stand by today, but even I have to agree with me on a few things. :D

[zhilan]

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[drpepper101]

Wow....you scare me.

BTW did you know that it is possible to be in the military and not have done it just for the college money and also not be blindly devoted to America as if it were your God?

There are three kinds of people in the military:

1.The warrior and patriot
2.Those that can't hack it in the civilian job market and find the structure of military life appealing
3.The GI Bill hand out types, the mercenaries

The line between one and two can get blurred a bit, as for the rest you know them when you see them.
When you swear an oath to defend the United States and the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic it simply makes no sense to be half hearted about it. As you don't get to question your orders a certain amount of blind devotion is necessary if one wants to be a good soldier. What's your MOS?

[drpepper101]

My friend who was in the Army for 9 years told me that when he was in Germany during the 80s that they had standing orders to clear the roads in the event the Soviets crossed the Berlin wall. They were told to just shoot any German civilians who got in their way. He was a big time patriot and said he would do whatever he was ordered to do.

I know he could have just been dramatizing because he knew that kind of stuff got under my skin but it was still disturbing. He also said they had been polled on who would/wouldn't fire on American civilians if ordered to do so. Again, he said he would do whatever he was ordered to do.

That would be an illegal order at any point, let alone as a standing general order. Any command that issued such an order would be subject to court marshall. Nor where soldiers ever polled to determine if they'd fire on American civilians, using the armed forces against American citizens is also illegal. He was probably just trying to rattle your cage.


Not having served any length of time in the military, I can't say how accurate any of that is or not but I could see the "without question" part up to a point. If I'm ordered on a mission which is certainly a one way trip, I can see doing it. That's part of the job. If it's something clearly wrong, that's different.

When they were writing "Happy Easter" on the bombs they dropped on Orthodox Churches and monasteries in Serbia, I don't know what I would have done.

Being part of the reserves I have to keep my opinions on President Clinton to myself otherwise this would probably be a three page rant.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Oh you should always run orders through a moral filter. Not doing that is what has landed some of our soldiers in quite a bit of trouble. Military service requires respect and obience, not blind drones.

No, not being willing to fight a war the way one should be fought has landed our country in the mess it is in. Unless you are an officer, you are required to follow orders. There are some extreme cases where you should disobey orders, but those are few and far between and the disobedient person better be prepared to deal with the discipline which will follow. As the Army's slogan says, it is an army of one, not an army of solo thinkers who don't listen to the orders they are given. War is not clean and precise. War is messy and if you didn't want the United States to declare war on you in the first place you should not have attacked us or provoked us into a state of war. I am constantly amazed how those who don't understand how wars have been historically fought try to analyze and tell our troops what they can and can't do in combat. And then they wonder why this war is not over yet. If it had been fought the way wars were fought in the past, it would have been over a long time ago.

[Khaleas]

Being part of the reserves I have to keep my opinions on President Clinton to myself otherwise this would probably be a three page rant.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

[Dust and Ashes]

That would be an illegal order at any point, let alone as a standing general order. Any command that issued such an order would be subject to court marshall. Nor where soldiers ever polled to determine if they'd fire on American civilians, using the armed forces against American citizens is also illegal. He was probably just trying to rattle your cage.

Yeah, that's one of his favorite "debate" tactics. I didn't think that sounded right but it's hard to tell, having never been in that situation.

[zhilan]

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[Protoevangel]

There are some extreme cases where you should disobey orders, but those are few and far between and the disobedient person better be prepared to deal with the discipline which will follow.
This is key. The person who disobeys, may be in the right, but should not be surprised when they are put under discipline. Right or wrong, that's how a military is, and has to be, to be effective.

If it had been fought the way wars were fought in the past, it would have been over a long time ago.
Our first mistake was to make war a spectator sport.

[Orthosdoxa]

Our first mistake was to make war a spectator sport.

If you're referring to the media being so involved in it, I agree 1000%.

LK

[drpepper101]

Yeah, that's one of his favorite "debate" tactics. I didn't think that sounded right but it's hard to tell, having never been in that situation.

It sounds like he was intentionally misrepresenting certain directives that did exist. It was widely theorized that if the Soviets invaded West Germany they would attempt to use civilian populations as cover believing the western governments would withdraw as opposed to engaging in areas where collateral damage would be high. Acceptable levels of collateral damage were high, but that had to be weighed against the threat of the USSR over running western Europe. It certainly wasn't a SOP to start gunning down civilians in the event of invasion.

[drpepper101]

That's really cool that you've met all 2,685,713 people in the military and know their motivations for joining the military. You must be an extremely social and perceptive guy.


I was commissioned before you were born, so I have some insight into the situation. You'd fit in well with the Intel crowd, they think they know it all too.

[drpepper101]

Oh you should always run orders through a moral filter. Not doing that is what has landed some of our soldiers in quite a bit of trouble. Military service requires respect and obience, not blind drones.

Yes, and while you're running your orders through your "moral "filter" your comrades may be dying. Obviously you'll never experience combat save for some absurd twist of fate, and be glad of it. The fact is when people don't obey orders people die, simple as that.
If a person cannot get over the moral gray area that is the major function of the military they ought not have joined it. Bottom line, we're in the business of ending lives. They didn't teach you how to use that rifle so you could impress your friends with your marksmanship. There's nothing fun or pleasent about that, but there is real evil in this world and sometimes people have to fight and kill resisting that evil. Whether you're pulling the trigger or pushing papers you're helping to do it, and that's never a clean or overtly moral business. You deal with it or you wash out.

[Matrona]

If a person cannot get over the moral gray area that is the major function of the military they ought not have joined it. Bottom line, we're in the business of ending lives. They didn't teach you how to use that rifle so you could impress your friends with your marksmanship. There's nothing fun or pleasent about that, but there is real evil in this world and sometimes people have to fight and kill resisting that evil. Whether you're pulling the trigger or pushing papers you're helping to do it, and that's never a clean or overtly moral business. You deal with it or you wash out.I may have never experienced combat myself, but something tells me that it doesn't take an excess of deliberation to distinguish between an adult who's shooting at you and a helpless infant being used for target practice.

[Khaleas]

I may have never experienced combat myself, but something tells me that it doesn't take an excess of deliberation to distinguish between an adult who's shooting at you and a helpless infant being used for target practice.
Or the 15 terrorists with their Kalashnikovs sitting in a row behind that baby...
They don't play fair and to survive we can't either. It's war, and it's not for everyone for a reason.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I may have never experienced combat myself, but something tells me that it doesn't take an excess of deliberation to distinguish between an adult who's shooting at you and a helpless infant being used for target practice.
The only way to outright win a war is the excessive use of force to the point where it scares the opponent into surrender, or totally anihilate the opponent to the point where they have no choice but surrender. Any other way of fighting a war will end up with a result like Vietnam had.

[Khaleas]

It's not a weakness to say you don't want to go to war or you don't want to join the military. Believe me, if there is any doubt in your mind the guys and girls out there are greatful that you don't join. If you don't believe in what you're doing then you're much more likely to put yourself and others in danger. Much better to stay at the homefront then.
I'm definitely not up for it, but I will fight tooth and nail for the dignity and respect for my husband. Belive me, if I could let him lose on this thread... he wouldn't be so eloquent as DrPepper here has been.

[Matrona]

Or the 15 terrorists with their Kalashnikovs sitting in a row behind that baby...
They don't play fair and to survive we can't either. It's war, and it's not for everyone for a reason.

I did a project on the My Lai massacre for school; one of the soldiers who was there testified about a baby being shot to death as target practice. I do not recall, however, if he mentioned any terrorists, armed or otherwise, sitting within close proximity to that baby.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I did a project on the My Lai massacre for school; one of the soldiers who was there testified about a baby being shot to death as target practice. I do not recall, however, if he mentioned any terrorists, armed or otherwise, sitting within close proximity to that baby.
Reading about war, and being involved in war are two totally different things. War is hell. There is no two ways to say it. It is not neat, it is not pretty and not a spectator sport, and we are better off not knowing what goes on in some battles. But having a military that the world fears will keep the more sane groups in the world from messing with us. Now there are some groups who are insane, and the only way to deal with them is let the full force of our military deal with them.

[Khaleas]

:doh:

[Michael the Iconographer]

:doh:
That is actually kind of funny! Silly senator, how little he knows!

[Matrona]

I'm definitely not up for it, but I will fight tooth and nail for the dignity and respect for my husband. Belive me, if I could let him lose on this thread... he wouldn't be so eloquent as DrPepper here has been.

Who is impugning your husband's respect or dignity? My father and grandfathers all served in the military. I've got friends and relatives, relatives' friends and friends' relatives, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"...[L]et us not be blind to our differences -- but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal.... [W]e can seek a relaxation of tensions without relaxing our guard. And, for our part, we do not need to use threats to prove that we are resolute.... We are unwilling to impose our system on any unwilling people -- but we are willing and able to engage in peaceful competition with any people on earth...."

-- President John F. Kennedy, 10 June 1963

[Dust and Ashes]

"He fired at it with a .45. He missed. We all laughed. He got up three or four feet closer and missed again. We laughed. Then he got up right on top and plugged him." - account gathered by the Peers Inquiry (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peers_Inquiry&action=edit) from one of the participants who described using a baby for target practice during the massacre.

From Wiki regarding the My Lai Massacre

I must add that it was stopped by an American Lt. who threatened to have his door gunners open fire on the soldiers perpetrating the massacre.

[Orthosdoxa]

I don't know what in the world shooting a baby has to do with any of this. We are fighting an enemy who very clearly has said the West must convert or die. Some crappy American soliders in the Vietnam era are completely irrelevant to this issue.

And, speaking of that sign, John Kerry is going overseas and badmouthing the US again, just like he did during Vietnam. Go figure. The man is a dirtbag.

LK

[Matrona]

I don't know what in the world shooting a baby has to do with any of this.

Well, Zhilan argues that the respect and obedience required of military personnel does not require what she terms "blind obedience", that is to say, unquestioning acceptance of one's orders. Others argue that this is not exactly pragmatic in a combat situation.

While I'm not sure whether or not any soldier was specifically ordered to kill a baby, I brought up the My Lai massacre because babies are most definitely unarmed civilians--there's no excuse for shooting one on purpose. I think it is a clearly recogizable example where the soldiers had opportunities to think things through no matter what they had been told to do, and should have recognized that this person was not a threat to them.

I am not blind or stupid; I recognize that there are people who will attack America at all costs. But there are rules governing warfare for good reasons: so that we have a moral leg to stand on against terrorists, and to protect our soldiers from becoming murderers. The Nuremberg Defense is forbidden in the US military and soldiers are not expected, in the greater scheme of things at least, to follow an unlawful order. Let's make sure, in our haste to protect ourselves from our enemies, that we do not fall down in the same place they did.

[zhilan]

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[zhilan]

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[zhilan]

.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I don't know what in the world shooting a baby has to do with any of this. We are fighting an enemy who very clearly has said the West must convert or die. Some crappy American soliders in the Vietnam era are completely irrelevant to this issue.

And, speaking of that sign, John Kerry is going overseas and badmouthing the US again, just like he did during Vietnam. Go figure. The man is a dirtbag.

LK
In the past, the actions of John Kerry were considered to be treason. Last I checked, the punishment for treason was death at the gallows.

[EricTheRed]

He cant do any real harm. It takes him about three hours to say a word anyways

[rusmeister]

Politics should largely be tossed overboard.

I personally think the current regime, er, administration has been just as bad as the previous one and it has nothing in particular to do with the OP anyway, so rants against Clinton and Kerry are pointless, particularly since the one has been out of power for going on 7 years and the other one lost the election anyway.

There has been room for both fighting and pacifism in Orthodoxy, although most of the time I'm going to favor the latter. Iraq was never about defending my homeland so it's really hard to justify military action there.

The gist of the OP:
Should we venerate non-Christian objects?

[Dust and Ashes]

I don't know what in the world shooting a baby has to do with any of this.

The discussion had drifted to the issue of following orders without question being a quality necessary for a good soldier. The soldiers who perpetrated the My Lai massacre were told to destroy the village and that all "innocents" would be gone to market. Anyone left would be either Viet Cong or active VC sympathizers and to be killed. When they arrived, the village was full of women, children and old people. They questioned the villagers where the VC were and when the people said they didn't know, they got angry and started killing people. Regardless of orders or circumstances, there is no justification whatsoever for what they did.

But truly it isn't relevant to the discussion of pledging allegiance to a flag or government. Soldiers are just people and people are wont to go haywire and do all kinds of atrocious things and can yield to the same mob mentality that takes other people. Soldiers should have more discipline but sometimes when orders are aligned with immorality it becomes easy to fall into some pretty nasty things.

It has been said that the problem with things like that in Vietnam was directly related to the quality of leadership. Many of the "best and brightest" who would have made good officers were exempt from the draft so they ended up giving commissions to people who lacked proper experience and discipline.

And as Matrona said, none of this (from my part anyway) is intended as a slur on our military. I have friends who have served and are serving in the military and I greatly respect them and what they are trying to do.

[Knowledge3]

I don't have any answers to this, but this is something that bothers m sometimes and I wonder if there's any Orthodox opinion on this. I'm in the military, so of course patriotism and respect for the country and such are emphasized. But sometimes I feel like "Americanism" is like a religion or something. There's all these rules about how the flag must be treated and how you must salute it and such and we have the pledge of allegiance and all that stuff. I'm not saying this is wrong, but sometimes it bothers me. Why are we pledging allegiance to a -flag- or a -country-? Shouldn't our only allegiance be to God? Should we treat a flag like it is something sacred like an icon or something? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong, it's just something that bothers me sometimes and I'm wondering how to deal with it. When I say "I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the United States of America" I feel wrong in saying that. I don't pledge allegiance to any flag, my allegiance is to God and the Church. Has anyone else struggled with this?

American freedom is valuable & cherised and must not be taken for granted; and the authentic dollar bill says "In God We Trust."

And also, the Declaration of Independence makes a direct reference to the Creator.

[kamikat]

When I was a Catholic I was very militant and conservative. The more I learn about Orthodoxy, I think I'm becoming a pacifist. Especially as I've become really drawn towards a devotion to St. Moses the Black. He is my inspiration and although not officially, I think of him as my patron saint. It's hard for me to reconcile the positions.

Can you apply for a discharge as a conscientious objector? If you really feel you can't do your job anymore, than maybe that's the way to go.

[Matrona]

The gist of the OP:
Should we venerate non-Christian objects?

I believe it's only safe to venerate Christian objects. Idolizing a nation and its accoutrements attaches us to the mortal and fallen world, and history shows us that their rises and falls are inevitable. Christian standards are the only ones worth striving for, and the only ones worth dying for, because they are the only ones that will never die.

"Hitler’s after us! Quick! Let’s all grab a spanner and get together, and perhaps if we smash in enough faces they won’t smash ours. Gang up, choose your Leader. Hitler’s black and Stalin’s white. But it might just as well be the other way about, because in the little chap’s mind both Hitler and Stalin are the same. Both mean spanners and smashed faces."
--George Orwell

[The Virginian]

I used to be all about waving the flag and would get misty listening to the Star Spangled Banner or God Bless the U.S.A. Now, I don't feel very patriotic. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for being born with the opportunities available here in the US but I now look at America like any other nation or empire that has risen and fallen throughout history. Nations and governments come and go but Orthodoxy abides timelessly.

I remember when a former President mined the harbor in Vietnam, I felt he was wrong, and didn't feel like being a citizen of the United States anymore, much less a member of the military.
I've had the opportunity to be in quite a few nations around the globe; but, on something as mundane as a bus ride home, watching the land bathed in sunlight, the thought came to me: There is no country in the world like the United States!
We converts seem to be caught up in an attitude which says ; if it's not Orthodox, then it's beneath me! It's a part of my Christian duty to obey those in authority over me, this means obeying the rules and laws of the nation of my citizenship. This is what the Bible states. I would guess that The Fathers of the Faith, while they were fiercely defending the Holy Orthodox Faith against the iconoclasts, were also men and women of great pride in their nationality. One of the greatest heroes of the American military, was a man who because of his new faith in God, nearly became a conscientious objector. Sgt. Alvin York in World War I.
My faith is both what defines who I am, and how I respond to the laws of my nationality. It does not require me to reject what it is which has made me who it is that I am! Neither under the ministry of John the Forerunner, Jesus Christ, or Ss. Paul and Peter the Apostles were the Centurions or other members of the Roman legion required to leave the Legion, or pledging allegiance to the Empire, through the flag. Remember, "...give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." and don't confuse the two. As St. Ambrose said of the separation of Church and State: "...They are two entities existing in their own sphere, but giving general help and support to the other."

a sinful and unworthy servant

[Dust and Ashes]

I remember when a former President mined the harbor in Vietnam, I felt he was wrong, and didn't feel like being a citizen of the United States anymore, much less a member of the military.
I've had the opportunity to be in quite a few nations around the globe; but, on something as mundane as a bus ride home, watching the land bathed in sunlight, the thought came to me: There is no country in the world like the United States!
We converts seem to be caught up in an attitude which says ; if it's not Orthodox, then it's beneath me! It's a part of my Christian duty to obey those in authority over me, this means obeying the rules and laws of the nation of my citizenship. This is what the Bible states. I would guess that The Fathers of the Faith, while they were fiercely defending the Holy Orthodox Faith against the iconoclasts, were also men and women of great pride in their nationality. One of the greatest heroes of the American military, was a man who because of his new faith in God, nearly became a conscientious objector. Sgt. Alvin York in World War I.
My faith is both what defines who I am, and how I respond to the laws of my nationality. It does not require me to reject what it is which has made me who it is that I am! Neither under the ministry of John the Forerunner, Jesus Christ, or Ss. Paul and Peter the Apostles were the Centurions or other members of the Roman legion required to leave the Legion, or pledging allegiance to the Empire, through the flag. Remember, "...give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." and don't confuse the two. As St. Ambrose said of the separation of Church and State: "...They are two entities existing in their own sphere, but giving general help and support to the other."

a sinful and unworthy servant




Sergeant York is one of my all time favorite movies!

As far as the rest, I didn't mean to imply that I think anything not Orthodox is beneath me or that I think I'm somehow better than anyone or anything. I can't help how I feel and I'm just stating how I feel. I don't feel very patriotic anymore and it's only since I became Orthodox.

I still think the American system is the best thing going and I'm thankful for being born here. I would fight to defend America, though I'm starting to have issues with that because I'm leaning towards pacifism. Becoming Orthodox has just helped me to understand that America is not all there is and that it's not us against the world.

[drpepper101]

I may have never experienced combat myself, but something tells me that it doesn't take an excess of deliberation to distinguish between an adult who's shooting at you and a helpless infant being used for target practice.

During the first Gulf War I can remember being shot at from what was a house. Didn't know if the people that lived there were inside adding the enemy willingly, being held hostage, or gone. My order to the machine gunner to run the place over with his M-60 could have killed men, women, and children that were guilty of only being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As luck would have it there were no civilians inside. Had there been I would not have changed my order. The fact you've just killed an adult, shooting at you or not doesn't make it much better. When you see somebody's body rock back and forth with the force of being shot knowing they were your rounds it's not pretty. The men I killed, or were killed as a result of orders I gave, were probably not hardline Baathists or anything else. Just guys in a situtation they didn't want to be in trying to make it out alive. Until you've been there you simply have no idea of what you're talking about.

[Dust and Ashes]

During the first Gulf War I can remember being shot at from what was a house. Didn't know if the people that lived there were inside adding the enemy willingly, being held hostage, or gone. My order to the machine gunner to run the place over with his M-60 could have killed men, women, and children that were guilty of only being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As luck would have it there were no civilians inside. Had there been I would not have changed my order. The fact you've just killed an adult, shooting at you or not doesn't make it much better. When you see somebody's body rock back and forth with the force of being shot knowing they were your rounds it's not pretty. The men I killed, or were killed as a result of orders I gave, were probably not hardline Baathists or anything else. Just guys in a situtation they didn't want to be in trying to make it out alive. Until you've been there you simply have no idea of what you're talking about.

And yet quite different from walking up to an infant and shooting them point blank with a .45 while laughing about it.

[zhilan]

I want to close this thread.

It hasn't gone in the direction I wanted. I opened it because I feel a moral dilemma. Instead it's become dominated by someone who is not even Orthodox (or at least makes no claims of being so on his profile) making uncharitable statements to myself and other Orthodox members of this thread and it is causing unrest among the Orthodox members when instead of fighting among ourselves we should be looking towards repentance as we prepare to enter Lent.

Forget I started it, I'll deal with the issue on my own.

[Khaleas]

I want to close this thread.

It hasn't gone in the direction I wanted. I opened it because I feel a moral dilemma. Instead it's become dominated by someone who is not even Orthodox (or at least makes no claims of being so on his profile) making uncharitable statements to myself and other Orthodox members of this thread and it is causing unrest among the Orthodox members when instead of fighting among ourselves we should be looking towards repentance as we prepare to enter Lent.

Forget I started it, I'll deal with the issue on my own.
Oh, so now you have an issue with an inquirer while you were so against separating them out in the faith icon thread. He's clearly stated that he's inquiring and there is even a thread about him attending DL today.

[drpepper101]

And yet quite different from walking up to an infant and shooting them point blank with a .45 while laughing about it.

There is certainly a difference between being a soldier and being a monster. When you're in the business of giving orders that might kill all kinds of innocent people, regardless of how right they were, it doesn't make you feel much better about it. My dad was a pilot in the Army Air Corps during WW2, the fact that carpet bombing was considered neccessary and justifible didn't do much about his guilt. Something he dealt with every day until he passed on. I just don't know if it's something you can communicate to someone that's never pulled the trigger on another person.

[Matrona]

Oh, so now you have an issue with an inquirer while you were so against separating them out in the faith icon thread. He's clearly stated that he's inquiring and there is even a thread about him attending DL today.

Zhilan was complaining about his participation because of the way he has been posting on this thread, not because he's an inquirer. And the fact that she doesn't want inquirers/catechumens to have a segregated faith icon doesn't mean it's hypocritical for her to think that an inquirer/catechumen could require more instruction before discussing Orthodox beliefs in a public forum.

[drpepper101]

I want to close this thread.

It hasn't gone in the direction I wanted. I opened it because I feel a moral dilemma. Instead it's become dominated by someone who is not even Orthodox (or at least makes no claims of being so on his profile) making uncharitable statements to myself and other Orthodox members of this thread and it is causing unrest among the Orthodox members when instead of fighting among ourselves we should be looking towards repentance as we prepare to enter Lent.

Forget I started it, I'll deal with the issue on my own.

It hardly seems that a little discussion of military life has caused anyone that much trouble. If anyone is upset about something I've said then I apologize for it. Though I have to say it would seem what you wanted was for someone to coddle you and the issue is that didn't happen. There's a thread in the public appeals section having to do with "sock puppet" accounts that would seem to indicate you have no problem being involved in discussions on OBOB to the point of not letting a ban get in the way. You're a soldier, does a soldier hold people to a standard of account he or she doesn't follow?

But, by all means, if I've offended anyone or am not welcome then I'm only to glad to be on my way.

[rusmeister]

That is a sad fact about threads, Zhilan. They tend to go off-topic. Although sometimes it is better that they do so, I think it would be better if they stuck to the OP most of the time.
On the other hand I've posted at an ESL site where the mod(s) kill, even delete posts that are a) not OP-related, or b)touch on religion and faith, even its effects on the classroom. It feels very fascist. The environment is much more pleasant here, but bending threads is probably an inevitable result and I'm as guilty as anyone.
It helps sometimes when you ask for limited scope in the OP.
I do think this one would be best served by returning to the OP.

[zhilan]

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[Breaking Babylon]

I just want to say, stick to your convictions, Zhilan. You're the one who's out there, you have the right to feel how you feel, and I fully support it. I'm sorry this thread didn't go in the right direction but I do want you to know that someone's on your side.

[zhilan]

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[Dust and Ashes]

There is certainly a difference between being a soldier and being a monster. When you're in the business of giving orders that might kill all kinds of innocent people, regardless of how right they were, it doesn't make you feel much better about it. My dad was a pilot in the Army Air Corps during WW2, the fact that carpet bombing was considered neccessary and justifible didn't do much about his guilt. Something he dealt with every day until he passed on. I just don't know if it's something you can communicate to someone that's never pulled the trigger on another person.

Although I'm not really sure how I got to this point, that's basically all I was looking for. I understand that there are times when the safety of your unit outweighs other concerns. I wouldn't blame anyone for putting an rpg in a window to take out a barricaded sniper, even knowing it might kill non-combatants. That's part of war. I guess I was just wanting someone to differentiate between the two points rather than seeming to say basically, "War is hell so whatever happens is ok."

Again, I'm not really sure how I got to this point in the discussion. Reminds me of that one time with the Southern Comfort and the...well, never mind. :scratch:

:D

[zhilan]

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[Orthosdoxa]

Until you've been there you simply have no idea of what you're talking about.

This about sums it up, as most of us HAVEN'T been there.

an inquirer/catechumen could require more instruction before discussing Orthodox beliefs in a public forum.

I just don't see this issue as being about Orthodox beliefs, more about political/social understandings. There's no one right Orthodox way to view these things.

I hope learning about Orthodoxy will soften your heart.

Yikes. When we start making blatant judgmental statements about the state of others' hearts, we know the whole thing has gone too far.

LK

[zhilan]

Done with CF.

Close the thread.

Bye.

[Protoevangel]

Done with CF.

Close the thread.

Bye.
Come on zhilan, don't be that way.

I, for one, don't want you gone. I appreciate all you contribute, and even agree with most of it.

Stick around, please.

[zhilan]

Thanks for your kind words, and I don't mean to seem like I'm just mad over this thread and leaving. I think I was too short in my previous post. This was just the breaking point. CF is not good for me. TAW used to be a sanctuary, but either I've changed or TAW has changed and it just seems like there has been a lot of bickering between Orthodox lately, which I don't remember ever being the case before. I'm getting ready to enter the church and I know the devil is going to give a lot of spiritual attacks, and I don't need this adding to it. The only time I feel like I might be wrong in becoming Orthodox is here, which is really sad because TAW was what lead me to the church. I need to go.

But there are many wonderful people here and I appreciate those people and will keep you in my thoughts.

Maybe after I'm Orthodox I'll come back.

And thanks to those who have supported me on my journey.

[zhilan]

Please pray for me.

[Oblio]

Closed at request of OP.