Orthodox Question

[Knowledge3]

What is the official position of the Orthodox Church regarding the doctrine of Dispensationalism?

[repentant]

Well considering it's only about 200 years old.....

[Akathist]

K3, we don't agree with that doctrine.

To give an example of how that does not fit our beliefs, we believe that all of the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the coming of Christ.

[Knowledge3]

I had originally rejected Dispensationalism several years before entering the cathechumenate.

[Oblio]

Was it dispensationalism in 18th c Russia ?

[Lotar]

Is Outrage!!!

[Cyprian31]

As you can see, we don't much hold wiht Dispensationalism. Is outrage, indeed. For a better view, though ( or at least a more comprehensive one) I recommend oh, say any of the Church fathers, there are several recommendable web sites out there. Or, better still, go to your local library. Asw for those sites, sorry, mind go blank.

God be with you.

[E.C.]

Anything post Great Schism has a great chance of not being accepted in Orthodoxy.

[buzuxi02]

What is dispensationalism?

[repentant]

What is dispensationalism?

I wouldn't worry about it..

[Knowledge3]

What is dispensationalism?

My current understanding of it; dispensantionalism is a pre-configured "map" of the biblical timeline and history.

It's only a couple hundred years old.

But it is dispensational, nonetheless.

[buzuxi02]

Is this the belief that the 7 churches of Revelations correspond to 7 epochs of human history?

[Knowledge3]

Is this the belief that the 7 churches of Revelations correspond to 7 epochs of human history?

I do not know, I have not studied the subject enough to teach on it.

[repentant]

I do not know, I have not studied the subject enough to teach on it.

And don't bother studying or worrying about it anymore. Concentrate on what is Orthodox teaching and belief, and study that.

Now if you ever become a Priest (I think you have mentioned that before, correct me if I'm wrong) then maybe you can learn a little more about various heresys, so that you can help teach people the faith better by showing them what is wrong with the heresys. Of course this would be after you have a pretty thorough understanding of Orthodoxy..;)

[Knowledge3]

And don't bother studying or worrying about it anymore. Concentrate on what is Orthodox teaching and belief, and study that.

Now if you ever become a Priest (I think you have mentioned that before, correct me if I'm wrong) then maybe you can learn a little more about various heresys, so that you can help teach people the faith better by showing them what is wrong with the heresys. Of course this would be after you have a pretty thorough understanding of Orthodoxy..;)

What's wrong with the heresies is they are improper and incorrect heretical view(s) of God and the All Holy Trinity. :mad:


. . . :priest:

[repentant]

What's wrong with the heresies is they are improper and incorrect heretical view(s) of God and the All Holy Trinity. :mad:


. . . :priest:

And we know that..but people who believe them wouldn't respond to what you just said. You would have to show them how they are improper and heretical. This is how you teach people. I try to do it on here, but sometimes people just don't want to listen, and twist Scripture, totally ignoring other Scripture. Then I get angry, and nothing good comes from that..

[Knowledge3]

And we know that..but people who believe them wouldn't respond to what you just said. You would have to show them how they are improper and heretical. This is how you teach people. I try to do it on here, but sometimes people just don't want to listen, and twist Scripture, totally ignoring other Scripture. Then I get angry, and nothing good comes from that..

I understand that with the Protestant "doctrine" of sola Scriptura.

Man must first seek God through repentance, then come to the knowledge and saving grace of Christ.

[kamikat]

Is this the belief that the 7 churches of Revelations correspond to 7 epochs of human history?

I learned a little about it when I was modding the theology forums. I don't remember anything about the 7 churches. I think they believe that the OT covenant applies only to Jews and the NT covenant applies only to Gentiles. They believe that the Jewish state still has favor with God and will be restored during the "end times".

[E.C.]

And we know that..but people who believe them wouldn't respond to what you just said. You would have to show them how they are improper and heretical. This is how you teach people. I try to do it on here, but sometimes people just don't want to listen, and twist Scripture, totally ignoring other Scripture. Then I get angry, and nothing good comes from that..
Unfortunately, I think part of this is because of all the bad blood between Protestantism and Catholicism.

On another site I used to post on, there was this Fundamental Baptist. And almost every single post he made, had some crack against Catholicism. Now, this may not seem like it matters, but at times, the stuff he was condemning, was also Orthodox stuff (veneration of Mary, priesthood etc etc) so that's when I would step in. And of course, being the ignorant of anything not Protestant or not Catholic, he would do one of two three things: 1) ignore my posts 2) call me a Catholic heretic, even though he knew I am Orthodox or 3) call me a "deceived Catholic" and recommend I read the Bible!

Long story short, many Protestants who are ignorant of anything non-Protestant or non-Catholic have a tendency to despise Orthodoxy because it "seems a lot like Catholicism"

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Re: tendency to despite Orthodoxy: That's what I'm afraid of. I intend to ask my priest before chrismation whether or not I should tell my aging, anti-Catholic dad that I'm converting. :( He lives two states away, so it is possible for me to let him stay blissfully unaware. I'm not worried about anybody else, just him. I think even my mom would be okay with it, but if I tell her or my brothers, he'll find out eventually.

As for dispensationalism....I studied this about two years ago. It's kind of complicated how I ended up studying it. But I read about it in Lutheran writings, while searching for a good source to refute the "God's chief aim is His own glory" doctrine I'd been hearing in an Evangelical church. I discovered that Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches are full of dispensationalism. I was brought up believing it as well, though at the time I didn't know the name.

The irony is, my original church (Nazarene) was not originally dispensationalist or even premillennial, as I discovered in my studies; the doctrine came into the church because the laity was influenced by Calvinist Fundamentalism in the early decades of the 20th century.

If anybody has refutations they'd like to share, I'd love to read them so I know how Orthodoxy contrasts with what I was originally taught. I occasionally read about "dispensations" and wonder if it means what Dispensationalism says it means (different forms of grace for the 7 different ages of human history).

Dispensationalism also produced the "Left Behind"-style End-Times theology that's filled American Protestant culture for the past 30 years or so. I'm still trying to sort out how exactly Orthodox interpretation differs from it.

[Rowan]

Re: tendency to despite Orthodoxy: That's what I'm afraid of. I intend to ask my priest before chrismation whether or not I should tell my aging, anti-Catholic dad that I'm converting. :( He lives two states away, so it is possible for me to let him stay blissfully unaware. I'm not worried about anybody else, just him. I think even my mom would be okay with it, but if I tell her or my brothers, he'll find out eventually.

You have my prayers, Nyssa:hug:

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Thanks! :)

[Philothei]

2. What is Dispensationalism?

Dispensationalism is a form of premillennialism originating among the Plymouth Brethren in the early 1830's. The father of dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby, educated as a lawyer and ordained Anglican priest, was one of the chief founders of the Plymouth Brethren movement, which arose in reaction against the perceived empty formalism of the Church of England. To the Brethren the true "invisible" church was to come out of the apostate "visible" Church, rejecting such forms as priesthood and sacraments.

Dispensational theology centers upon the concept of God's dealings with mankind being divided into (usually) seven distinct economies or "dispensations", in which man is tested as to his obedience to the will of God as revealed under each dispensation.
Dispensationalists see God as pursuing two distinct purposes throughout history, one related to an earthly goal and an earthly people (the Jews), the other to heavenly goals and a heavenly people (the church).1 (http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#f1)
Dispensationalists believe that in the Old Testament God promised the Jewish people an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David, and that when Christ came He offered this prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When the Jews of the time rejected Christ and the earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed, and the "mystery form" of the kingdom - the church - was established.
The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old Testament and constitutes a "parenthesis" in God's plan for Israel. In the future, the distinction between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished and will continue throughout all eternity. The "parenthesis", or church age, will end at the rapture when Christ comes invisibly to take all believers (excepting OT saints) to heaven to celebrate the "marriage feast of the Lamb" with Christ for a period of seven years.2 (http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#f2)
God's program for the Jews then resumes with the tribulation, Antichrist, bowls of wrath, 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and Armageddon. Then, the Second (third, if you count the preTrib rapture) Coming, the instantaneous conversion of the entire nation of Israel, the resurrection of the Tribulation and Old Testament saints, and the "sheep and goats" judgment. The "goats" will be cast into hell, the "sheep" and the believing Jews will enter the millennium in natural human bodies, marrying, reproducing, and dying. The "mystery church" and the resurrected Tribulation and Old Testament saints will live in the heavenly Jerusalem suspended above the earthly city. This millennium will be a time of great peace and prosperity, with Christ ruling on David's throne. After 1,000 yrs. Satan will be released from the chain with which he had been bound at the beginning of the millennium and many of the children born to the "sheep" and the Israelites will follow him in revolt against Christ. The King will again destroy His enemies, followed by another resurrection of the righteous, another resurrection of the unrighteous, a final judgment, and at last the New Heavens and the New Earth.


Although premillennial thought has been recorded in the early church, dispensational theology and its pursuant eschatology are new, as even the father of the system admitted -"I think we ought to have something more of direct testimony as to the lord's coming, and its bearing also on the state of the church: ordinarily, it would not be well to have it so clear, as it frightens people. We must pursue it steadily; it works like leaven, and its fruit is by no means seen yet; I do not mean leaven as ill, but the thoughts are new, and people's minds work on them, and all the old habits are against their feelings - all the gain of situation, and every worldly motive; we must not be surprised at its effect being slow on the mass, the ordinary instruments of acting upon others having been trained in most opposite habits." - LETTERS OF J.N.D., vol.1 pg.25-26The new doctrine was widely accepted in America, due to popular prophetic meetings such as the Niagara Bible Conferences. C.I. Scofield promulgated dispensational thought in his Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensational Bible institutes by the hundreds have sprung up across the continent - notably Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary. Media evangelists such as Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, and Hal Lindsey popularize dispensational eschatology today. Most likely you have heard these doctrines taught over Christian radio programs, and yes, from your own church's pulpit, though probably no one defined the theological system as dispensationalism nor the origination as Darby circa 1832.



Dispensationalists view the teaching as a return to Biblical theology, after nearly 1,800 years of darkness. But, since the day Darby began to preach the doctrine, Godly men have opposed. Many books have been published exposing the flaws in the intricate system. Most hack away at the branches, arguing peripheral issues. We intend to lay the axe to the root of the tree."My brother, I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe (by Darby's doctrine) did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby." - George Müeller, a contemporary and one time supporter of Darby quoted by Robert Cameron in his book SCRIPTURAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LORD'S RETURN, pp.146-7[ contents (http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#c0) | glossary (http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#a1) | author (http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#gp) | top (http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#top) ]

http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html#c1

This is the major idea of this doctrine. It pretty much goes hand in hand with the rapture doctrine. Modern time protestants believe that by building the Temple of Solomon the Messiah (Christ) will come and the end of times will come. Also out of dispensation all Jews will be "saved".

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

I think of it pointless to say that it is a major heretical teaching since we as Orthodox we do not try to interepret the Book of Revelation. Eschatologically meaning talking about the end times we are very careful about what we "know" and what the we speculate. This is one of the major reasons why the book of Revelation is never read during our Church services
.

We only know that the antichrist will come before Christ and he will reign the earth. We do not know the time or the place, this is the reason the first Christians were always prepared for the Eschaton the end of Times. It in our Tradition to await patiently, with prayer and fasting the coming of the Kindgom, for we know neither the time or the place...

Also we do not know how Christ will judge other religions and the Jewish people. It is not up to us to speculate who will be saved or not.

[E.C.]

We do not anticipate the end times. We know it will happen and is inevitable. As Orthodox; actually as Christians in general; we must be prepared for when the end times come. Like the wedding guests waiting to go to the wedding, we must have our lamps filled with extra oil just in case.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Is Outrage!!!

LOL HAHAAHA...

[Philothei]

We do not anticipate the end times. We know it will happen and is inevitable. As Orthodox; actually as Christians in general; we must be prepared for when the end times come. Like the wedding guests waiting to go to the wedding, we must have our lamps filled with extra oil just in case.
By anticipating I mean to look forward, to be prepared at all times. Living our lives as if the Lord would come any minute not laxing in our spritual life, just like the first Christians did. As we celebrate the DL we live in the Eschaton, the end times. The whole DL is in anticipation of the Kingdom of God. The DL starts with the "Blessed is the Kingdom..." The idea of the Kingdom presuposses the anticipation of the Kingdom of God, which has no beginning or end, thus it includes the Eschaton. That is why we say that the DL is timeless.

God bless,
Philothei

[repentant]

In the Orthodox Church, we don't prepare so much for the END TIMES as we do OUR END..

[Mary of Bethany]

Did you know that the Beatitudes are not meant for Christians? Did you know that much of Jesus' own teachings are not meant for Christians?

They were part of the dispensation before Christ established the Church, so they aren't for us. :doh:

And we wonder why so many evangelicals put more emphasis on Paul's letters than on the Gospels!

Mary

[E.C.]

By anticipating I mean to look forward, to be prepared at all times.
Ah, ok. I was thinking you had meant something along the lines of "52 years, 10 month, 8 days, 15 hours, 8 minutes and 5 seconds until the end of the world!" anticipation.