Southern Baptist question

[ConservativeChristian97]

I'm just curious, is OSAS a typical Southern Baptist doctrine? I recently learned most churches are differant in each area. So, how common is it in Mississippi?

Also, I looked into a church my dh and I attended when we visited our soon to be hometown, and they're web page kinda made a red flag go up. Here's the web site:
http://www.mtvernonbaptist.org
If it does the same for you, perhaps you could tell me what did it for you?

Thank you and God bless,
Dawn

[mlqurgw]

I'm just curious, is OSAS a typical Southern Baptist doctrine? I recently learned most churches are differant in each area. So, how common is it in Mississippi?

Also, I looked into a church my dh and I attended when we visited our soon to be hometown, and they're web page kinda made a red flag go up. Here's the web site:
http://www.mtvernonbaptist.org
If it does the same for you, perhaps you could tell me what did it for you?

Thank you and God bless,
DawnI am not a Southern Baptist but am familiar with them and as far as I know they do believe in eternal security.
Yeah the web site sent up waving red banners for me. They make no mention of what they believe. They have no doctrinal statement at all. They seem to be more interested in entertaining than worshipping. I suspect it is part of the Emergent Church movement. The focus seems to be on you instead of on Christ.

[ConservativeChristian97]

I am not a Southern Baptist but am familiar with them and as far as I know they do believe in eternal security.
Yeah the web site sent up waving red banners for me. They make no mention of what they believe. They have no doctrinal statement at all. They seem to be more interested in entertaining than worshipping. I suspect it is part of the Emergent Church movement. The focus seems to be on you instead of on Christ.
Yeah, that's kinda what I felt when I looked at it, Then my fil told me about the pastor playing "Friends In Low Places" for part of his sermon. I understand how it related, but still do not feel it was appropriate.

[JuJube]

First thing I noticed was there was no mention of why they even have a church...and that is JESUS! No scripture on there front page other than a study in 1JN. I don't want to be critical...cause they could be bible teaching Jesus loving Christians, but 1st. impression...I don't get that. And if your fishing for something along the lines on the dancing...that's futher down on my list, not a REAL biggy.:)

[ConservativeChristian97]

First thing I noticed was there was no mention of why they even have a church...and that is JESUS! No scripture on there front page other than a study in 1JN. I don't want to be critical...cause they could be bible teaching Jesus loving Christians, but 1st. impression...I don't get that. And if your fishing for something along the lines on the dancing...that's futher down on my list, not a REAL biggy.:)
What about dancing? I didn't say anything about dancing. He played Garth Brooks to start off his sermon.

[JuJube]

What about dancing? I didn't say anything about dancing. He played Garth Brooks to start off his sermon.
Oh, I just saw dancing on the front. But it strikes me as odd. I just thought that might have been a red flag also. Dancing instead of Jesus..

[ConservativeChristian97]

Oh no, I don't mind dancing. I lack rhythm, but that shouldn't hinder others from enjoying it. lol!

[ARainySeptember]

Wow guys. You're misunderstanding completely. The way the Southern Baptists branched off the "Baptists" is because they did not want to create a docrine that pushed people out. Outside of the "essentials" (what you have to believe to be a Christian, for example that Jesus is LORD and Savior) they want you to prayerfully consider what you believe. I would say the majority of Southern Baptists do believe in OSAS, but they leave that up for the individual in their private conversation with God to decide. My "Sunday School" leader believes in Predestination -- but I don't. In a Southern Baptist church, that's allowed. You can have differing opinions on the "grey area".

We are NOT more interested in "entertaining" as you put it, but would rather help individuals think for themselves as they commune with God for answers. Because the truth is, no one can know FOR A FACT OSAS is true or not until after they are dead. So Southern Baptists tend to focus on the individuals instead of the whole "club" classes Southern Baptists. Unlike say, Catholics that will write up point by point what everyone should believe (grey area or not) the Baptists want it left up for debate and soul-searching.

Oh and the dancing thing? Baptists used to have a rule that you couldn't drink or dance. That went out the window like a hundred years ago.

[daveleau]

I'm just curious, is OSAS a typical Southern Baptist doctrine? I recently learned most churches are differant in each area. So, how common is it in Mississippi?

Also, I looked into a church my dh and I attended when we visited our soon to be hometown, and they're web page kinda made a red flag go up. Here's the web site:
http://www.mtvernonbaptist.org
If it does the same for you, perhaps you could tell me what did it for you?

Thank you and God bless,
Dawn


Most SBCs believe in OSAS, but there are exceptions in any religious group about many theologies.

As for the red flag- mine was set off in how they focus on people receiving something from church, rather than focusing on praising God. Everything centers around making the person comfortable, rather than the focus of church- praise of The Almighty.

The dancing doesn't both me, as I find nothing wrong with dancing as long as it is not focused on the typical issue that makes dance a stumbling block for many.

In Him,
Dave

[ConservativeChristian97]

ARainySeptember,
If this comes off harsh at all, I sincerely apologize. I'm 16 weeks pregnant and my hormones are insane right now. However, I feel your post needs to be addressed.

Your church may be differant, that's great! I just know the church I used to go to, pushed OSAS and I believe it to be unBiblical and do not want it taught to my children as if it were Biblical truth.

Your second point is actually out of context, they were responding to a question I had about a particular Southern Baptist Church, not Southern Baptist Churches as a whole.

Also, I never mentioned dancing until someone else said something. My entire problem was that he played Garth Brooks in church, to me that's like playing Hank Williams Jr in church, it is not appropriate. Especially since I choose not to listen to secular music.

God bless you,
Dawn

[daveleau]

I agree with the music selection aspects of your post. There are plenty of contemporary, and popular songs that could be used to appeal, but have a Christian focus.

[ARainySeptember]

Then that's a problem you have with a specific church -- not Southern Baptists. My point is this : every southern baptist church is different -- that's how the Southern Baptist denomination is set up.

I've attended a couple Baptists churches I didn't like for various reasons. One pastor preached that we should torture people who torture people (or lock parents up in a closet and let them starve to death that attempt to do that to their kids) -- now I don't know about you but I don't find that particularly Christian-like.

But instead of saying, "Wow those Baptists sure are a violent bunch!" I said, "Hmm, guess I'll try out the other Baptist Church I saw on Main St"

[JuJube]

:wave: Well, that was me. But I was only bringing it up because I was rating their webpage by mere first impression. I thought that is what we were doing. Sorry if I caused a ruckus! :sorry:
To me the church is trying too hard to make church appealing to the SEEKER as they call the lost now. No scripture, no Jesus..just stuff to try to draw them in. Now, I'm not against events to draw people to hear the gospel...but hey, let's not forget to show and tell them the gospel and not just a good time dancin'. Do we look different from the world anymore? I'm not being critical of anyone. I have to stop and ask myself the same thing from time to time. When people look at me ,do they see Jesus?

[ARainySeptember]

Baptists aren't known for dancing btw. In fact -- they're pretty stoic in the pews its hard to get them to realize clapping isn't a sin in church.

I believe there's a few other charismatic denominations that shout, dance in the aisle and oh my....clap their hands!

[JuJube]

Baptists aren't known for dancing btw. In fact -- they're pretty stoic in the pews its hard to get them to realize clapping isn't a sin in church.

I believe there's a few other charismatic denominations that shout, dance in the aisle and oh my....clap their hands!
Yeppers! we do a bit of that ourselves at church...I mean clappin' and stompin'...and we're Bapt.

[ARainySeptember]

Hmmm, its possible. I'm just saying Baptists aren't known for that. In general, they're pretty stoic.

[ConservativeChristian97]

Then that's a problem you have with a specific church -- not Southern Baptists. My point is this : every southern baptist church is different -- that's how the Southern Baptist denomination is set up.

Now you're twisting what I said, stick with me on this please. The first paragraph was related to all Southern Baptist churches while the second paragraph is related to one Southern Baptist church. I've been going to SBCs for years in Virginia and I understand its differant in Mississippi, so that is what I was asking.

Also, your posts make it sounds like you're trying to stir things up. I thought I was pretty clear in the OP, everyone else got it yet you missed what I was asking completely. :confused: It seems on purpose, but maybe thats just me.

:wave: Well, that was me. But I was only bringing it up because I was rating their webpage by mere first impression. I thought that is what we were doing. Sorry if I caused a ruckus! :sorry:
To me the church is trying too hard to make church appealing to the SEEKER as they call the lost now. No scripture, no Jesus..just stuff to try to draw them in. Now, I'm not against events to draw people to hear the gospel...but hey, let's not forget to show and tell them the gospel and not just a good time dancin'. Do we look different from the world anymore? I'm not being critical of anyone. I have to stop and ask myself the same thing from time to time. When people look at me ,do they see Jesus?

:eek: This I will take the blame for, I didn't realize you meant the church, I thought I was unclear and it sounded like I was talking about dancing. :doh: I do that sometimes. lol! And at the moment, my brains kinda mush, guess the baby needed some extra brain cells. ;) lol! Anyways, I'm sorry, you did not cause a ruckus and I'm glad you shared your insight on this matter. Thank you!
God bless you all,
Dawn

[JuJube]

OSAS is all that I know and believe. I'm familiar with the teaching that you are talking about. Is that what is called a "free will " baptist? I don't ask this with any disrespect. I have only been a Christian for 8yrs. and only at one church, so some terms are new to me. I have heard this before and I'm curious.:)

[Phileoeklogos]

To answer the OP, OSAS, Eternal Security, or Final Perserverance, or whatever name you want to give it, is addressed in section V of the BFM 2000, and this is a direct quote from the first 2 sentences of the 2nd paragragh, " All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end."

Section V does go on to say more but that is probably the gist of what you would hear in any SBC church, and most Baptist churches in general. I don't understand why things would be different in Mississippi, or why a church that believed different would even be part of the SBC if they disagreed with what it's stated core beliefs are?

[ConservativeChristian97]

OSAS is all that I know and believe. I'm familiar with the teaching that you are talking about. Is that what is called a "free will " baptist? I don't ask this with any disrespect. I have only been a Christian for 8yrs. and only at one church, so some terms are new to me. I have heard this before and I'm curious.:)
I think so, but I'm not sure. lol! I just know I disagree with OSAS enough I am leaving the Baptist church for good. If I didn't have this child to think of, I probably wouldn't be too concerned because I know what the Bible says. A child, however, can not discern on their own, so I would rather them learn it from me and hubby than a youth pastor or someone else who will be leading them.

So, I will post my farewell message and go. :)
God bless you all,
Dawn

[Argent]

I'm just curious, is OSAS a typical Southern Baptist doctrine? I recently learned most churches are differant in each area. So, how common is it in Mississippi?

Also, I looked into a church my dh and I attended when we visited our soon to be hometown, and they're web page kinda made a red flag go up. Here's the web site:
http://www.mtvernonbaptist.org
If it does the same for you, perhaps you could tell me what did it for you?

Thank you and God bless,
Dawn
This is NOT an "Emergent" church. Emergent is something quite different. This is what is refered to as a "relavant" Casual Contemporary Christian Church affiliated with the SBC. Which means they are doctrinally sound (traditional, orthodox So.Baptist doctrine) but the service is contempory and the sermons are more like "teachings" on the Holy Scriptures. These sorts of churches are usually trying to get young adults give church a try who have never been in church, or young people who just don't relate to old-time SBC "fire and brimstone" preaching and traditional services. The pastors are from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, which is a theologically sound Southern Baptist school. My church here in NYC is like this one (though we have a better website, with our doctrinal statement on it) and Jesus is very much at the center of everything we do. I don't doubt that about this one, but you won't know unless you check them out. I'd give them a try just based on the fact that the pastors are from NOBTS.

[ConservativeChristian97]

I've been, but don't particuarly care for any church that "forgets" to mention Jesus on their web page and teaches OSAS.

[jsimms615]

I'm just curious, is OSAS a typical Southern Baptist doctrine? I recently learned most churches are differant in each area. So, how common is it in Mississippi?

Also, I looked into a church my dh and I attended when we visited our soon to be hometown, and they're web page kinda made a red flag go up. Here's the web site:
http://www.mtvernonbaptist.org
If it does the same for you, perhaps you could tell me what did it for you?

Thank you and God bless,
Dawn
While Once Saved Always Saved is usually preached in most Southern Baptist churches I wouldn't say that everyone in the pews is in agreement with the doctrine. You will find a wide variety of opinion on the subject.
I looked at the church web site. I don't really think you can judge a church but only its web site. It sounds like they are trying to think outside the box a little in order to reach people and that is good. Emphasis on music and children ministry is good too.

[IisJustMe]

I've been, but don't particuarly care for any church that "forgets" to mention Jesus on their web page and teaches OSAS.Why would you even consider it? Obviously you don't believe in the very biblical and absolute truth of eternal security. Why, I don't know, and as always when presented with someone who believes they can "lose" their salvation, I'm beyond comprehension of a "belief" that exists amongst the personal demons of fear and doubt about Christ's ability to save. In fact, it is more likely you don't fear you could lose your salvation, you just believe it could happen to someone else led astray by what you have come to think of as the "false teaching" of eternal security.

The web site looks like a typical "beginner's web page" that many churches new to cyberspace opt for when first establishing a web presence. Not only is there no Statement of Faith, there is also no indication that the church does teach eternal security, or, as you choose to disdain it, "OSAS."

As it happens, it would be an error to assume Mt. Vernon is an SBC church. It isn't. At least, it does not come up on the "ChurchSearch" link on http://www.sbc.net. All in all, it seems there could have been a bit more thought put into the OP, but I understand the emotionalism of wanting to rail against a closely held belief. It happens that denying eternal security, in my opinion, is the actual error here. I apologize if this is a harsh post, but I have grown weary of the rejection of biblical truth and the acceptance of the teaching of men, i.e., "losing salvation" versus God's truth of eternal security. That the Bible teaches eternal security is beyond question. But if you don't want to accept it, that's your decision. I've learned a long time ago arguments don't change minds when it comes to politics or religion. I'm glad I've opted for faith in place of either.

[Argent]

I've been, but don't particuarly care for any church that "forgets" to mention Jesus on their web page and teaches OSAS.
Dear Sister, if you went and didn't like it, then it's not where God wants you. Pure and simple. As far as the website is concerned, you can always point out to them that mentioning Jesus on it might make it more attractive to visitors. And as far as OSAS is concerned, it's the truth. Our Father doesn't put us in the fold and then give us back to the bad guy because we mess up. That would be legalism, and the NT is very clear that we are under Grace, not Law.

Best wishes and prayers for you and your family as you try to find a church home.

[mekkin]

Not meaning to come off as ignorant...what does OSAS stand for?:scratch:

[mekkin]

Nevermind...duh. "Once saved, always saved." In which case, I DO NOT agree with.

[ARainySeptember]

But not all SB Churches are in the Southern Baptist Convention. Some chose to have no part in it.

Oh and by the way -- went to the website and low-and-behold...they talk about Jesus!? What are y'all talking about they don't mention Jesus. There's a link on the top right that says, "I want to know Jesus" -- that was one of the first things I saw.


Then a little lower as they're talking about VBS : "Each day you'll have the opportunity to challenge kids to respond to Jesus as the Living Savior and Lord of All."

Under about us: "Southern Baptists share a common bond of basic Biblical beliefs and a commitment to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the entire world." and "The fact that Jesus died for our sin, was buried, and then rose from the grave is foundational for Southern Baptists. "

Note: "Southern Baptist enterprise of reaching the world for Christ. Typically church membership is a matter of accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord and experiencing believer's baptism by immersion."

Uh I think they mention Jesus. Can y'all even read?

[BereanTodd]

But not all SB Churches are in the Southern Baptist Convention. Some choice to have no part in it.

I think you are mistaken there. I don't think one can be a "Southern Baptist" and not be a part of the southern baptists. They may disagree with the national convention but they are still a part of it. For instance here in Texas we now have 2 state conventions because the liberals got ahold of the power in the original state convention and went against some of the family and marriage stands of the last decade or so that the national convention took. When we conservatives couldn't take back control, we split and started a new state convention.

But despite the fact that the liberals (the BGCT - Baptist General Convention of Texas) rejects some of what the national convention has done and been standing for of late, they remain an active part and voice in it.

I don't think you can just not be a part of the convention though and still in actuality be Southern Baptist.

[ARainySeptember]

I live in Texas too -- I guess I haven't heard of the "liberal Southern Baptist Convention". All I know is I attend a baptist church and all the doctrine I've been preached from the pulpit I agree with. I do know that other church leaders personally hold beliefs I don't agree with like predestination, etc. but they don't preach that you have to believe one way or the other.

I attended Central Baptist Church in Bryan, TX when I was in College and the pastor there was the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. I just think "Southern Baptist" is not easily put into a box.

[BereanTodd]

I live in Texas too -- I guess I haven't heard of the "liberal Southern Baptist Convention".

Well there is the national "Southern Baptist Convention" and then each state has their own "convention". The oldest/original one here in Texas is called the BGCT - the Baptist General Convention of Texas.

Back in the early to mid 90's the liberals got power in the convention and we were not able to get it back. Then the national convention ammended the charter to include language speaking of the biblical need for male headship in the home, and for the submission of the wife. The BGCT rejected that and removed it from their language.

The conservatives could not get power back, and most (but not all of them) left and started the SBT - Southern Baptists of Texas. We now have 2 state conventions that represent us every year at the national convention.

Now I personally currently attend a very conservative congregation which has nonetheless remained within the BGCT. And of course the issues can get a little more complicated than the couple of paragraphs I have devoted to these issues here. But that is sort of the brief summary of the soap opera that is the Southern Baptists here in Texas.

I do know that other church leaders personally hold beliefs I don't agree with like predestination, etc.

Unless you reject the Bible you must have some view of predestination because Scripture clearly states that it exists. Now arminians, calvinists and all those inbetween have different views on how this plays out, but that it exists is not in question unless you reject Scripture.

Now as a Calvinist myself I hold to the view you are probably disagreeing with ... but that is the subject for another thread ...

I attended Central Baptist Church in Bryan, TX when I was in College and the pastor there was the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. I just think "Southern Baptist" is not easily put into a box.

I scanned the web site for CBC-Bryan and I couldn't find it readily noted which of our state conventions they belong to ... but yes you are correct in your last sentence.

[IisJustMe]

Oh and by the way -- went to the website and low-and-behold...they talk about Jesus!?You went to the web site of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the link I posted. The OP has a link in it to a little church in Columbus MS that is just one page and is exactly as she described it. Sorry for the confusion. My bad.

[ARainySeptember]

Awesome. Thanks for the clarification. Apologize for being a *snot* ?

[IisJustMe]

Awesome. Thanks for the clarification. Apologize for being a *snot* ? ... but I did offer you a Kleenex. :D :P :cool:

See Todd over there? <<pointing at BereanTodd>> I think he's the one who called you a "snot"

:::: sits back to watch the fireworks ::::

[eldermike]

I am SB. We teach eternal security, in fact in my home church the doctrine is a requirment for all leadership positions. We welcome everyone to come, but only those that agree with the doctrines of our faith will teach.

Dancing? Sure, why not?

The founders of SB were clearly Calvinists. I would call folks to read a bit about James P Boyce the founder of the first SB seminary.

[GordonSlocum]

What about dancing? I didn't say anything about dancing. He played Garth Brooks to start off his sermon.

From Eternal Security to Dancing, Now that is Baptist for sure.

Years ago, back in the sticks, in Rural Alabama, the good old days, they really were. A person enters the from door of the normal SBC Church. I can see it in my minds eye. A poster against dancing. Behind me are several men on the porch as we call it, puffing away on their freshly rolled cigs or those new machine made kind, Winston’s, Camels, etc.

Back then you could wash your car on Sunday but you could not cut your grass or go fishing. In a lot of cases the side walks rolled up literally and almost all stores were closed. About the only businesses open were a few "down home country" restaurants. It was the good old days. Families were together. Family time was good. Good memories. People were closer. You could leave your doors unlocked, People trusted each other and don't even try to get into mischief. Everyone looked out for the other in a very large sense. All the teachers at the public school I attended as best I can remember were involved in a local church. We had prayer and Bible reading in the public school. Hall monitors, and the principle would swat that backside with a fierce looking board of education persuasion paddle. Your parents supported the schools them and the schools were decent and upright for the most part. BUT the odd thing - Smoking Was Not a Sin Then.

Why? The effects of smoking were revealed by modern medicine and that became the cause to see smoking as sinful.

Eternal Security to dancing to smoking - We were real down home Southern Baptist warts and all. Cotton pickers, farmers, factory workers, merchants, house wives (a forbidden statement today) - the good old days, no air conditioning, (some if you had the money to buy it, no microwave ovens, and in my younger days no refrigerator, and out house. Took a bath in a round metal tub and had to heat the water for warm water.
The good old days.

The time when all the town business and gossip was passed on at church socials. Those were great days. Playing and eating and free from a lot of encroachments of today’s fast paced life.

Eternal Security - It is Southern Baptist hook, line and sinker.

Dancing - on the verge of being accepted on a large scale in Southern Baptist Churches - Not vulgar dancing mind you.

My attitude and position on any activity is this:

If it distracts form learning the Bible, heart felt worship, and reverence toward God I aint for it. But on the other hand I aint against new ideas, methods, ways, forms of music.

The main thing of all things for me would be: Are all ages learning the precepts and truths of the Bible? Awanas - far more superior than GAs and RAs.

GAs and RAs were great but Awanas a 1000 times better.

Today we enter the local church and there is the occasional believer smoking but not so much as flashing it openly and kind of hiding it cupped in his hand. Have never see a lady smoke outside a church, have you?

Now had you been at my house on some Sundays following Services, you would have been treated to fried rabbit and dumplings, poke salad, different kinds of beans, collard greens, corn, corn bread, - well you get the picture. Don't forget the homegrown watermelon. They were delicious them, not so today. Some of my favorites were and still are cream corn, okra, gravy and potatoes and fried rabbit or chicken. Haven't had fried rabbit in a very long time. Dad raised rabbits and sold the pelts.

Eternal Security, Dancing, but what about "public bathing" swimming as it is called today. In some areas of the south men and women were not permitted to swim together. Today public bathing, swimming is laced with license and the acceptance of public nudity, scantly dressed men and women. Many families in all churches permit themselves and there children to dress almost naked in public.

What people wear in public today was not permitted outside the bedroom in the Good Old Days. Go figure.

Sorry, a soap box for sure, then there is Eternal Security and Dancing. What sin has replaced the smoke? You fill in the blank _________.

Eternal Security. Great Subject.

[Hisbygrace]

Our church does believe in OSAS....Based on Biblical Basis.