Question for Non-Catholics/Non-Orthodox.

[Rion]

I'm asking Catholics and Orthodox to please not post in this thread. I've heard their say on the matter, so I don't need to get it off tagant on ground covered a hundred times before.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but somethings been bugging me for a while now. I do not believe in praying to Mary or the Saints, nor do I believe that the Pope is inerrant, etc. I believe that both Catholics and Orthodox are Christians, I just don't think their Traditions are absolute, or even correct in some cases. However...

If this is true, then why did God allow these errors to perpetuate for so long? I just don't understand why He allowed this stuff to continue for about a thousand years or more. I've tried to see it from their PoV, but for me to believe certain Traditions would require that I commit intellectual suicide in regards to Scripture.

With the saints, I understand that actually praying for them to interceede with Christ came later, and that at first it was more along the way of Elisha's body when he died. I'm fine with that. But when did complete Papal Infallibility and Intercession come about? More importantly, is it just something minor or is it a fairly large error? If so, why did Christ allow it and continues to allow it? :confused:

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well, your issue seems to not be with Catholicism but rather WHY God allows error.

I wish I had the answer to that. The fastest growing religion in the world - by far - is Islam. This century could see Islam become the world's largest religion. But all religions are being drawfted by secularism, relativism, and agnosticism. Why does God "allow" this? We could theorize but I don't know the mind of God in this regard.


Two things come to my mind:

1. God tends to raise up reformers. I'm named for one of those. God does rise up those to correct. Those who embrace the error or who are empowered by it don't like this and may well "terminate" them. Ah, Jesus could say a thing or two about that.

2. One message I get from Revelation is that evil and wrong have their day. But don't triumph in the end.


The Bible warns us - repeatedly - of false prophets, false teachers, antichrists, those that would lead many astray. We are told that God has a great distain for those who say "God says" when God said no such thing! We are told to "test the spirits" to see if they are true. Jesus commended the Ephesian Christians for testing the apostolic claims of some and finding them to be FALSE. So, I do think we need to be careful, told teachers accountable, hold things up to the light of His inerrant holy written Word. BUT, be careful not to be sucked down my skepticism or individualism, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don't claim it's easy.



Good question.


Pax!


- Josiah

[Rion]

It's not that I don't realize there'll be false teachers, but more of.. why was all of the Church following these things if they aren't true? How late did a lot of this stuff get added?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It's not that I don't realize there'll be false teachers, but more of.. why was all of the Church following these things if they aren't true? How late did a lot of this stuff get added?


1. I don't know. How long was Judaism on the wrong track before it got corrected (a few times)? And since I believe the church is not a specific denomination, God's reform isn't necessarily institutional in nature.


2. Some of the things that divide us are surprisingly late. The Dogma of the Infallible Papacy (1870), the Assumption of Mary (1950). The ideas certainly predate that, but they did not reach dogma level until then. Sadly, after Pope Leo excommunicated Luther and thus split his denomination and gave birth to Protestantism, the CC has been busy widening the gap. I pray that with Vatican II in the 1960's, that 400 year old trend might have begun to stabilize. With it has come a new wind in both Cathoicism and Protestantism that I passionately embrace.


My thoughts....


Pax!


- Josiah

[Mathetes the kerux]

How long does God put up with sin? He has since Adam . . . and he hasn't sought to correct everyone's theology.

Think of Namaan and Elisha . . . Namaan gets healed from leprosy and asks for 2 mule loads of dirt to make an altar to YHWH back in his country and asks that Elisha forgive him when he bows in the temple of his kings god to help his king bow.

Now YHWH was considered by the surrounding nations as a "god" of the mountains . . . because Jerusalem was atop a hill. If you had a god who was of the plains and I had a god who was of the mountains you would want to go to battle with me on the plains because that is where your god will be the strongest and likewise my god will be weak because my god is a god of the mountains.

Deities were geographical . . . the Jews knew that YHWH was the one true God and that ALL of the world was his . . . but the surrounding nations didn't believe this. Namaan asked for dirt because he wanted the "ground" of YHWH's land to give YHWH power and authority where Namaan was . . . did Elisha correct his incorrect theology . . . NO! He said go your way.

Many times God puts up with the stench of our filth because He is kind and longsuffering . . . this is grace. Thank God for Christ! Now He puts up with my filth too! Till Christ returns!

[IamAdopted]

Well I believe it is for Gods purpose..He wants that they hear the voice calling them out of her. When Christ comes every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is lord.. We just have to joy of doing it with accpetance of Him and His word...

[Rion]

Could a mod close this thread for me?

[Macrina]

Could a mod close this thread for me?

You may have to PM one of them for that.

[Oblio]

Closed at request of OP