Brain death and the soul

[jcj3803]

This might be an elementary question, but...

When the body dies, the soul departs to the presence of God according to the LCMS site. elca.org told me in an email that Scripture is unclear about the possibility of "soul sleep". So there's a big difference there.

But what happens at brain death? Is the soul still in the body? Or maybe a better question is, "Is that braindead body a 'person' anymore or just a mass of tissue?"

Doctrinal stances, anyone?

[LilLamb219]

Because the body is still alive, then the soul is still with it and death has not yet truly come to the individual. The soul just isn't contained within the brain and just because one part of our body isn't functioning it doesn't mean we're dead. Doctors can't even write dead on a death certificate if there is simply brain death...it has to be death over the entire body. So, brain death does not make one dead and the soul has not departed.

[ricg]

"Brain death" is not a concept I am aware exists in Scripture. What we call death is, I think, the separation of the soul from the body, which the world considers "natural" but which is actually tragically natural only in the sense that it is the result of humankind's new "natural" state under the curse of the Fall. Praise God that He has saved us from the spiritual curse of the Fall, eternal, spiritual death!

When bodily death (separation of our soul from our bodies) occurs is not made clear from the Bible. It is, in my opinion, left intentionally unclear, Lazarus, for example, having been left in the grave for four days to prove he was really dead, and Jesus in the grave for three. The fact that it is, in God's eyes, unnatural, is also reflected in the fact that John says Jesus wept at hearing of the death of Lazarus.

Soul sleep seems hard to square with the passages of Revelation 6:9-19 that talk about the martyrs asking how long until their blood is avenged.

[DaRev]

"Brain death" is not a concept I am aware exists in Scripture. What we call death is, I think, the separation of the soul from the body, which the world considers "natural" but which is actually tragically natural only in the sense that it is the result of humankind's new "natural" state under the curse of the Fall. Praise God that He has saved us from the spiritual curse of the Fall, eternal, spiritual death!

True. The word "death" means "separation." Temporal death occurs when our soul/spirit is "seperated" from our body and from this world. Now, when that occurs exactly is not known.

Soul sleep seems hard to square with the passages of Revelation 6:9-19 that talk about the martyrs asking how long until their blood is avenged.

Along with this verse:
1 Corinthians 15:51, "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed..."

This also from the LCMS FAQ site:



What Scripture teaches concerning the death of the Christian is summarized as follows by Lutheran theologian Edward Koehler in his book, "A Summary of Christian Doctrine: In the moment of death the souls of the believers enter the joy of heaven. Jesus said to the malefactor: "Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Stephen said in the hour of death: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59). Whoever dies in the Lord is blessed "from henceforth" (Rev. 14:13). Paul desires "to be with Christ," and adds that this is "far better" for him than to continue in the flesh (Phil. 1:23. 24). For this reason we pray that finally, when our last hour has come, God would grant us a blessed end, and graciously take us from this vale of tears to Himself in heaven.

[michaeljr5]

I believe that the soul still resides in the body, even if the person is brain dead. That is why I have a living will and it says "DO NOT" unplug me!

[DaRev]

I believe that the soul still resides in the body, even if the person is brain dead. That is why I have a living will and it says "DO NOT" unplug me!

But why would you want to be imprisoned in a "dead" body and put off your being with the Lord? If I was in a situation where there was no way to recover and was being artificially kept alive, I would certainly WANT to be unplugged. As St. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

[michaeljr5]

But why would you want to be imprisoned in a "dead" body and put off your being with the Lord? If I was in a situation where there was no way to recover and was being artificially kept alive, I would certainly WANT to be unplugged. As St. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."
Because I feel to allow myself to be unplugged would be suicide. I'm also a person that believes in miracles and I also believe in the ability of the human mind to repair itself. I will be with the Lord in HIS time, not mine.

[Studeclunker]

I'm kind of half way between the 'no heroic measures' and the 'hook up all the machines' crowd. Yes, I think the doctors should do all they can. Still, there's a limit to what they can do. When it comes time for a plethora of machines to help me breathe, my heart to beat, and feeding me through a tube because I've no way to feed myself then...

Please... release me, let me go.
This world is naught but pain and woe.
My life is over, can't you see?
so... release me... my Lord has set me free.:clap:

[DaRev]

Because I feel to allow myself to be unplugged would be suicide. I'm also a person that believes in miracles and I also believe in the ability of the human mind to repair itself. I will be with the Lord in HIS time, not mine.

But is it the Lord's will for you to be artificially kept alive in the body? Or has the Lord called you home but sinful man will not let you go?

I would think that the miracle would be you continuing to live after the plug has been pulled.

There was a man in my hometown a number of years ago who was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He was told that unless they began radical treatment he wouldn't live past six months. He dreaded what his life would be like with the treatments and so decided not to be treated. He was sent home, basically to die.
After he was home for about a week or two, he got tired of just laying around waiting to die, so he went back to work. (He was the fire chief in town.)

He retired from the Fire Department... 25 YEARS LATER!!!

Had he had the treatments the doctors wanted to do, he would have most likely been dead within 2 to 5 years.
So, sometimes denying the treatment or the machines helps us realize what God's true will is.

[jcj3803]

Now *that's* powerful!

My brother died from chemotherapy, not cancer. The chemo depressed his platelet count to where he went into organ failure even after multiple transfusions.

[michaeljr5]

But is it the Lord's will for you to be artificially kept alive in the body? Or has the Lord called you home but sinful man will not let you go?

I would think that the miracle would be you continuing to live after the plug has been pulled.

There was a man in my hometown a number of years ago who was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He was told that unless they began radical treatment he wouldn't live past six months. He dreaded what his life would be like with the treatments and so decided not to be treated. He was sent home, basically to die.
After he was home for about a week or two, he got tired of just laying around waiting to die, so he went back to work. (He was the fire chief in town.)

He retired from the Fire Department... 25 YEARS LATER!!!

Had he had the treatments the doctors wanted to do, he would have most likely been dead within 2 to 5 years.
So, sometimes denying the treatment or the machines helps us realize what God's true will is.

To answer your questions. It is not for me to question the Lord's will. From what I have learned I do feel that allowing them to unplug me, means suicide. The Lord gave us all the will to live. Why would I go against his will? He doesn't want us to die. A loving Lord does not wish us harm. The Lord wants us all to live long wonderful lives and worship him.

Any ways, this is all my opinion, for what it is worth. I will not allow someone else to make the decision of weather I live or die. I don't want someone else to have that decision on their concious. I make it myself and if I was wrong, the Lord will definately let me know.

BTW, that is awesome about the fire cheif! :thumbsup:

[Studeclunker]

There was a time when I was an avid Star Trek fan. In one episode, Spock's brain is stolen to run a supercomputer. The doctor is able to continue the basic functions of Spock's body and even animate him with a remote controll later. Neat on TV gruesome in real life.

Much of what is being done to prolong the functions of the body have become almost like the furniture of a mad doctor's laboritory. No thank you. When the Lord calls, I'm more than ready to go. If he really wants me to stay, such measures won't be necessary.

[dinkime]

death comes in God's time, not mine, HOWEVER, i am one who will say "please do not hook me up to machines to be kept alive" -- the machines keeping you alive are not God -- feeding tube, ok -- oxygen mask, ok -- intibation, please not -- heart bypass machine, no way!

this is the way my mother was...why deny her going to Christ when it is a much better way to "live" than to be hooked up to machines & depressed (since it is not what she wanted) --

that is not suicide to say "do not hook me up" that is letting God do His work...

[epyon]

If the brain dies and the bodystill has a heart beat the soul will still remain in the body. Only when they both die will the soul will be release from the fresh.

[LutherNut]

If the brain dies and the bodystill has a heart beat the soul will still remain in the body. Only when they both die will the soul will be release from the fresh.

And you know this because... :scratch: