Grace through action

[daveleau]

My dear friends,

If anyone understands the reasoning (or even Scripture behind, if it exists) the receiving of grace through some action, such as baptism, communion, etc, please post it here. I am very interested in finding out what the reason for this is, because to me, it is contrary to the core dogma of Christ's atonement. I figure I must be missing something for so many to believe such a thing.

In Him,
Dave

[dave90]

My dear friends,

If anyone understands the reasoning (or even Scripture behind, if it exists) the receiving of grace through some action, such as baptism, communion, etc, please post it here. I am very interested in finding out what the reason for this is, because to me, it is contrary to the core dogma of Christ's atonement. I figure I must be missing something for so many to believe such a thing.

In Him,
Dave


We believe it because it is in the Bible, faith is the most important thing, but works help.

[Gear853]

i was told that, it is through faith that we do good works.

[Seeker of the Truth]

My dear friends,

If anyone understands the reasoning (or even Scripture behind, if it exists) the receiving of grace through some action, such as baptism, communion, etc, please post it here. I am very interested in finding out what the reason for this is, because to me, it is contrary to the core dogma of Christ's atonement. I figure I must be missing something for so many to believe such a thing.

In Him,
Dave

Are you trying to say that some people believe that God's grace is shown through the gifts of the spirit and "special" feelings through acts such as baptism/communion?

If so, I disagree. God, I believe, doesn't give us "special" feelings, we create those feelings. Not to bash another denomination, but Pentecostals are all about "feelings".

If we're in God's will, we'll know it.

God's grace is so powerful. ?When you get a hold of that concept, it's eye opening to God's love for us.

[IisJustMe]

If anyone understands the reasoning (or even Scripture behind, if it exists) the receiving of grace through some action, such as baptism, communion, etc, please post it here.If you, by posting this question in the Baptist forum, are claiming this is a doctrine of any of the Baptist denominations, you are mistaken. If you are just trying to start an argument, shame on you.

Although there are disagreements of doctrine among the various conventions and congresses of the multiple versions of Baptists, the doctrine of grace is not among them. Grace is the unmerited favor of God, and there is no major Baptist denomination that teaches it is the result of any action by the believer. God is merciful and gracious to whom He chooses to be merciful and gracious. Nothing anyone does "earns" God's grace. Man can do nothing to "earn" anything from God, because at our best we still are not fit to even look upon Him from afar, much less be given grace or anything else by Him.

On the contrary, it is the old-line liturgical denominations that find grace a thing to be earned. Condemnation comes (in those churches' teachings, not in reality) in missing services, failing to take communion, failing to partake in the confessional, etc. Perhaps you can explain those things to me, because I truly do not understand how anyone can find those things supported Biblically.

[Hisbygrace]

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
I think a lot of people understand this verse to mean that works is as important to salvation as faith.
But I believe that Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us more about this.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It is my belief that we are saved by grace to do good works through Christ Jesus. There are many good people that will not see heaven because they believed in works instead of the cleansing power of Christ's blood. To me good works comes as a result of our belief in Christ and what He did for us. It is then through Christ that we do good works with a humble heart and not for our own motives.

[Phileoeklogos]

I don't see anything in Scripture that remotely suggests that grace is imparted by some act we perform or participate in, or that grace is somehow infused into some substance that we put in ourselves. or put ourselves into. I think the whole concept is foreign to Scripture, and it makes God appear to be witholding grace and I don't see Him as that kind of a Father, I see Him as lavishing His grace upon us because it pleases Him to do so. What I think is most strange about this concept is it ties God's grace to nice religious rites and acts, and I see God's grace poured out most abundantly when we are not nice or religious, but at our worst.....

[Seeker of the Truth]

I don't see anything in Scripture that remotely suggests that grace is imparted by some act we perform or participate in, or that grace is somehow infused into some substance that we put in ourselves. or put ourselves into. I think the whole concept is foreign to Scripture, and it makes God appear to be witholding grace and I don't see Him as that kind of a Father, I see Him as lavishing His grace upon us because it pleases Him to do so. What I think is most strange about this concept is it ties God's grace to nice religious rites and acts, and I see God's grace poured out most abundantly when we are not nice or religious, but at our worst.....
exactly!

[BigNorsk]

My dear friends,

If anyone understands the reasoning (or even Scripture behind, if it exists) the receiving of grace through some action, such as baptism, communion, etc, please post it here. I am very interested in finding out what the reason for this is, because to me, it is contrary to the core dogma of Christ's atonement. I figure I must be missing something for so many to believe such a thing.

In Him,
Dave

Dave,

If I may, there are really at least 3 groups of thought on this.

You get for instance the stance that you complain of, I would call that the Roman Catholic stance. They would teach that there is grace through the doing of an act such as say the Mass, or baptism or whatever. It's not pure pelagianism but there is the idea that one works his way towards salvation.

They would agree with Baptists that those things are works, they would disagree on whether our works can warrant grace.

There is a third school of thought typified in those Protestants who still accept Baptism and Communion as Sacraments. That is that these are not our works, but the work of God so we do not receive grace because we do them, we receive grace because God does them.

Now it seems to a lot of people that the reception of grace through means is somewhat strange. But how does one receive grace? Does one just walk around and suddenly zap it just comes flying out of nowhere and enters a person? I don't think you would believe that, though many do now a days. But you have to come up with the understanding of where does one receive grace, something that it seems to me, a lot of Baptists never discuss or teach.

The understanding among Lutherans would be that the basic source through which we receive grace is the Word of God. Here is an example in scripture where we see it in action.

Rom 10:14 NET.
(14) How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them ?
See the basic thing is that the people are enabled to believe through the Word of God. They hear, and they believe. This is an example of God working through means, in this case the missionary is sent and he proclaims the Word of God.

Once you realize that God does work through his Word, then it becomes less difficult to understand baptism and Communion. Both are cases where there is earthly elements used, but the efficacy comes from the Word of God. You can read an explanation of this in Luther's Small Catechism (http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html#baptism) I will quote just a couple of things.


What is Baptism?--Answer.
Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God's command and connected with God's Word.


How can water do such great things?--Answer.
It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.


That's a couple of the quotes but you can see that it isn't the water, or even the ceremony, but God's Word that is the means of God's grace in baptism.

Here is part of his explanation on Communion.


The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.
After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.
What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?
That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.
How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?
It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.


Note again that it is God's Word that is the effective means of God's grace. And that grace is received through believing, through faith. Communion is really a presentation of the Gospel, that Jesus gave his body and blood for you and partaking is to believe that he did so.

So to summarize, God works through means, his primary mean is his Word, his Word is active wherever it may be, whether, it is read in the Bible, heard through preaching, or combined with water in baptism or the bread and wine in Communion. It does not bestow grace through our actions, but through the actions of God, which is received through faith.

So, you can see, that if an unbeliever partakes of Communion, he doesn't receive grace because he has no faith, even if he reads the Bible he does not receive saving grace because he has no faith, but when the Holy Spirit works through God's Word to bring the person to faith, then he receives grace. He hears, and through that, he believes.

I hope you catch the distinction, it is not that we receive grace through our actions, it is that God chooses to work through means.

You are correct that teaching a works salvation is against the atonement, but a lot of times, people take the teachings on this of the Catholic church and think that the Lutherans and Presbyterians and such agree with the Catholics which is very much not the case. Remember, Luther taught that we are saved by grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone for the glory of God alone, and his teachings on baptism and Communion are consistent with that. If you insert the Catholic teachings, they of course are not, and that seems to be the source of a lot of misunderstanding.

Hope that helps.
Marv

[rkymtnjesusfreak]

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
I think a lot of people understand this verse to mean that works is as important to salvation as faith.
But I believe that Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us more about this.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It is my belief that we are saved by grace to do good works through Christ Jesus. There are many good people that will not see heaven because they believed in works instead of the cleansing power of Christ's blood. To me good works comes as a result of our belief in Christ and what He did for us. It is then through Christ that we do good works with a humble heart and not for our own motives.

What a great post!:thumbsup:

[daveleau]

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
I think a lot of people understand this verse to mean that works is as important to salvation as faith.
But I believe that Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us more about this.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It is my belief that we are saved by grace to do good works through Christ Jesus. There are many good people that will not see heaven because they believed in works instead of the cleansing power of Christ's blood. To me good works comes as a result of our belief in Christ and what He did for us. It is then through Christ that we do good works with a humble heart and not for our own motives.


This is my understanding as well.

[daveleau]

Dave,

If I may, there are really at least 3 groups of thought on this.

You get for instance the stance that you complain of, I would call that the Roman Catholic stance. They would teach that there is grace through the doing of an act such as say the Mass, or baptism or whatever. It's not pure pelagianism but there is the idea that one works his way towards salvation.

They would agree with Baptists that those things are works, they would disagree on whether our works can warrant grace.

There is a third school of thought typified in those Protestants who still accept Baptism and Communion as Sacraments. That is that these are not our works, but the work of God so we do not receive grace because we do them, we receive grace because God does them.

Now it seems to a lot of people that the reception of grace through means is somewhat strange. But how does one receive grace? Does one just walk around and suddenly zap it just comes flying out of nowhere and enters a person? I don't think you would believe that, though many do now a days. But you have to come up with the understanding of where does one receive grace, something that it seems to me, a lot of Baptists never discuss or teach.

The understanding among Lutherans would be that the basic source through which we receive grace is the Word of God. Here is an example in scripture where we see it in action.

Rom 10:14 NET.
(14) How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them ?
See the basic thing is that the people are enabled to believe through the Word of God. They hear, and they believe. This is an example of God working through means, in this case the missionary is sent and he proclaims the Word of God.

Once you realize that God does work through his Word, then it becomes less difficult to understand baptism and Communion. Both are cases where there is earthly elements used, but the efficacy comes from the Word of God. You can read an explanation of this in Luther's Small Catechism (http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html#baptism) I will quote just a couple of things.




That's a couple of the quotes but you can see that it isn't the water, or even the ceremony, but God's Word that is the means of God's grace in baptism.

Here is part of his explanation on Communion.



Note again that it is God's Word that is the effective means of God's grace. And that grace is received through believing, through faith. Communion is really a presentation of the Gospel, that Jesus gave his body and blood for you and partaking is to believe that he did so.

So to summarize, God works through means, his primary mean is his Word, his Word is active wherever it may be, whether, it is read in the Bible, heard through preaching, or combined with water in baptism or the bread and wine in Communion. It does not bestow grace through our actions, but through the actions of God, which is received through faith.

So, you can see, that if an unbeliever partakes of Communion, he doesn't receive grace because he has no faith, even if he reads the Bible he does not receive saving grace because he has no faith, but when the Holy Spirit works through God's Word to bring the person to faith, then he receives grace. He hears, and through that, he believes.

I hope you catch the distinction, it is not that we receive grace through our actions, it is that God chooses to work through means.

You are correct that teaching a works salvation is against the atonement, but a lot of times, people take the teachings on this of the Catholic church and think that the Lutherans and Presbyterians and such agree with the Catholics which is very much not the case. Remember, Luther taught that we are saved by grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone for the glory of God alone, and his teachings on baptism and Communion are consistent with that. If you insert the Catholic teachings, they of course are not, and that seems to be the source of a lot of misunderstanding.

Hope that helps.
Marv


This is kind of what I was looking for. I knew there had to be more to it than the simple two stances that I was seeing. Thank you very much.

[PrincetonGuy]

My dear friends,

If anyone understands the reasoning (or even Scripture behind, if it exists) the receiving of grace through some action, such as baptism, communion, etc, please post it here. I am very interested in finding out what the reason for this is, because to me, it is contrary to the core dogma of Christ's atonement. I figure I must be missing something for so many to believe such a thing.

In Him,
Dave

Grace is the dynamic of God by which He saves us, and that grace was believed by the Ante-Nicene Church to be imparted through the sacrament of water baptism. And, of course, this is still the view, with some slight modifications, of all the mainline Christian denominations and affiliations, and the view of many Baptist individuals. This view is largely based upon a very literal interpretation of 1 Pet. 3:18-22:

18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19. in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. (NASB, 1995)

Notice especially the words, “baptism now saves you.” Why do most Baptists believe that every Petrine scholar who is not a Baptist misunderstands this passage?

The view that the grace of God is imparted through water baptism is also supported by Romans 5:12-19,

12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (NASB, 1995)

Even prior to the giving of the Law, people died even though sin is not imputed when there is no law, proving that they had sinned—and the only sin that those before the giving of the Law could have committed was that they sinned in Adam. All of mankind, including all infants, sinned in Adam. Because infants are incapable of faith in Christ, the grace of God must be imparted to them in order for them to be saved, and that grace is imparted to them, it is believed by all of the historic denominations, both Catholic and Protestant, through water baptism. In order to have a peace of mind, Baptists who deny that the grace of God is imparted through water baptism have invented a doctrine which they commonly call “the age of accountability,” a doctrine that is entirely foreign to both the Bible and the Church for 1,600 years.

The view that the grace of God is imparted through water baptism is also supported by the historical interpretation of John 3:5,

5. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Is the grace of God imparted through other sacraments? The Bible does not explicitly answer that question. Is the grace of God imparted through good works? Yes, James, the brother of our Lord, wrote that it is when those good works are not merely the works of Law (which as Paul wrote can save no one), but the works that are inseparable from a true faith in God.

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.