Baptists, anti-works?

[dave90]

From what i hear Baptists do not believe in confession which is instituted by Christ in Matthew 20:23, and in James. Annointing of the sick with OIL, instutited in James. Communion instituted in 1 corinthans, and Fasting instituted in Matthew 6:16-19, by Christ himself.


Do these things not make God happy? I ask this because i heard baptists do not practice communion, anointing with the sick with oil and fasting as there sacrements? I do believe you have one which is baptism, so why ignore the rest?

[Logos1560]

I ask this because i heard baptists do not practice communion, anointing with the sick with oil and fasting as there sacrements?

You seem to have been somewhat misinformed about what Baptists believe. Baptists observe and practice two ordinances given to the church: believer's baptism and the Lord's Supper (communion). Thus, Baptists observe communion. Many Baptist churches are willing for elders/pastors to anoint the sick with oil when it is requested, but the New Testament does not teach that it is a required sacrament for the local church. Many Baptists may fast, but again the New Testament does not teach it as a required sacrament for the local church. Baptists believe in doing good works, but they do not believe that the Scriptures teach that good works are part of the requirements for salvation.

[dave90]

You seem to have been somewhat misinformed about what Baptists believe. Baptists observe and practice two ordinances given to the church: believer's baptism and the Lord's Supper (communion). Thus, Baptists observe communion. Many Baptist churches are willing for elders/pastors to anoint the sick with oil when it is requested, but the New Testament does not teach that it is a required sacrament for the local church. Many Baptists may fast, but again the New Testament does not teach it as a required sacrament for the local church. Baptists believe in doing good works, but they do not believe that the Scriptures teach that good works are part of the requirements for salvation.



this is good to hear.

but do these things make God happy right?

[arunma]

From what i hear Baptists do not believe in confession which is instituted by Christ in Matthew 20:23, and in James. Annointing of the sick with OIL, instutited in James. Communion instituted in 1 corinthans, and Fasting instituted in Matthew 6:16-19, by Christ himself.

I read St. Matthew 20:23, and I'm not sure how this applies to confession. Perhaps you could provide your reasoning. As I understand it, the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation finds a Scriptural basis here:
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. (James 5:16)
Most evangelicals certainly do believe in confessing sins to one another. Based on my (rather limited) understanding of church history, the Catholic practice of confession to a priest arose because earlier Christians who heard confessions of sin from their brothers and sisters would often use this knowledge for inappropriate purposes. As such, the presbyter of any given church took it upon himself to hear confessions of sin himself. While this practice may be useful in practice, it is a tradition of man, and not the commandment of God. Therefore we do not believe in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, at least not in the way that Roman Catholics do. But Baptists and other evangelicals certainly do confess sin to one another.

As for the annointing of the sick with oil, I have heard of churches that practice this. And I'm sure that if any Protestant Christian requested for a church elder to do this, he would happily do so. To be sure, the annointing of the sick with oil isn't very widely performed in evangelical churches anymore, and it probably ought to be.

Regarding fasting, most Baptists and other evangelicals do practice this. At my church, for example, many people corporately fast on the first Tuesday of the month. Christians also fast privately. And as has already been mentioned, Baptists most certainly practice the Sacrament of Communion (though many prefer to call it an "ordinance"; I am not one such person).


Do these things not make God happy? I ask this because i heard baptists do not practice communion, anointing with the sick with oil and fasting as there sacrements? I do believe you have one which is baptism, so why ignore the rest?

Well, all of these things are prescribed in the Bible (though not always as Catholics practice them). As such, I'm certain they do make God happy.

[daveleau]

From what i hear Baptists do not believe in confession which is instituted by Christ in Matthew 20:23, and in James. Annointing of the sick with OIL, instutited in James. Communion instituted in 1 corinthans, and Fasting instituted in Matthew 6:16-19, by Christ himself.


Do these things not make God happy? I ask this because i heard baptists do not practice communion, anointing with the sick with oil and fasting as there sacrements? I do believe you have one which is baptism, so why ignore the rest?
Hi Dave90!

Welcome to the Baptist forum. Very good questions. I hope I can help you understand the answers.

We pray over the sick, and some annoint with oil. Christ did not command the Church to do this, but instead was conducting a sign to the Hebrews of healing. Just as the man who was blind...Jesus spat into the dirt to create mud. These both- annointing with oil, and spitting on dirt- were signs to the sick that He was healing. It did nothing other than point to His work, and we should pray for Jesus to work in the lives of those who are sick to heal them, if it is His will to do so.

We do practice communion, although not weekly, as to not remove the significance of it from the congregants. Doing something that often makes it mundane and common in the minds of many. Communion is anything but that, and we practice it at different frequencies (different churches have different frequencies) to avoid this.

We fast as well. We do not do it as a requirement at a specific time, because doing something because it is on a calendar is not as significant as doing it when the Holy Spirit leads.

But, as for some churches being anti-works, I do have to think that we are often anti-works. We often do not teach the calling to works as much, because we are on the other side of the pendulum swing from the works-based faiths out there that believe some ritual, rite or act can have any bearing on salvation. Both anti-works and works-based faiths are wholly unScriptural. One is saved by grace imparted only by faith- not works, but are called to works that have no bearing on the completed act of salvation, which God will reward in Heaven. We strive in our church to promote good works the way Scripture does- outside of any salvific context. We do a pretty good job at it, when comparing it to other churches I have attended. We do need to, as a church, focus not only on Eph 2:8-9, which tells us that works have no bearing on salvation and that we are saved by grace received through faith alone, but also on Eph 2:10 which tells us we are called to works. These are not ritualistic works, but the helping of others, studying of the Word, and prayer. Anything we do is a work.

I hope this helps. I tend to agree that sometimes people get a negative view of works because of teachings (rightly) denouncing works-based salvation, but we as Protestants who try very hard to stick to Scripture, need to realize on all levels that works are desirous. Others need to realize that works have no bearing on salvation, and continue to do their works anyway, but without mandatory compulsion. These should work because of the joy in Christ that we have, and because Scripture tells us that we are to help those in our daily contacts with others.

In Him,
Dave

[Project 86]

I have yet to hear of a Baptist church that doesn't do communion. We differ in that we believe it represents what Jesus did for us on the cross. We don't believe it actually is his flesh or blood.

Many Baptists fast. Sometimes you don't hear about it because you're not suppose to be open about it as scripture says. Matthew 6:16-17

Anointing with oil isn't very common but still practiced on occasion in many Baptist churches.

Baptists often confess. We don't believe it has to be to the pastor though.

We believe we should do good but if we are not saved our "good works" are like filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6

[arunma]

I have yet to hear of a Baptist church that doesn't do communion.

Nor have I. I suppose that any church (Baptist or otherwise) that did not perform the sacrament/ordinance of communion wouldn't be a church at all, seeing as how Christ commanded us to do this until he returned.

[daveleau]

Yes, another good point on confession- we are to confess our sins to one another, as Scripture dictates. This is not a 'confessional' type confession, but for two reasons: accountability to stop habitual sin, humility, and testimony (of deliverance). No remittance is conferred with our confession, as our sins (present, past and future...as all sins Jesus died for were future sins, except those that lived at the time of the crucifixion) were remitted by Christ on the cross.

[JacobHall86]

Dude, strawmen everywhere.

[mlqurgw]

Just for information's sake, the difference between a sacrament and an ordinance is in a sacrament grace is imparted. Baptists believe in ordinances because they are commanded yet no grace is imparted by them. That is one of the things that separate, doctrinally, Baptists from Presbyterians. There are no sacraments in the Baptist church. We do not receive grace when we eat the bread and drink the wine as they are symbols to remind us of the work of Christ. It is the same with baptism.
As far as I can tell, Roman Catholics view many things as sacraments because they believe grace is imparted in a special way by them. Catholics hold to 7 sacraments: Baptism, the Eucharist, Matrimony, Orders, Extreme Unction, Penance, and Confirmation.
As to the fasting and anointing with oil:
Many Baptists fast but do so privately and not in order to make God happy or get something from Him. At least those who truly understand what fasting is. Anointing with oil is practiced but the nature of the oil, what it is actually supposed to be made of, is a question. It is debatable as to whether any oil will do. Also there are many questions and differences as to what anointing actually does.

[arunma]

Just for information's sake, the difference between a sacrament and an ordinance is in a sacrament grace is imparted. Baptists believe in ordinances because they are commanded yet no grace is imparted by them. That is one of the things that separate, doctrinally, Baptists from Presbyterians. There are no sacraments in the Baptist church. We do not receive grace when we eat the bread and drink the wine as they are symbols to remind us of the work of Christ. It is the same with baptism.

Yes, that is an important point. At my church, I suppose we're a bit more doctrinally loose on this issue. Many of us do believe that the sacraments (or ordinances, if you prefer) confer some sort of grace to the recipient. Indeed there are those of us who use the term "sacrament" with impunity. But traditionally, you're absolutely right that this is a fundamental difference between Baptists and Presbyterians.

I've noted that after attending a Reformed Baptist church for awhile, I've shifted a bit further to the Presbyterian side. The fact that half the college ministry staff is Presbyterian might have something to do with it...

[Hisbygrace]

You seem to have been somewhat misinformed about what Baptists believe. Baptists observe and practice two ordinances given to the church: believer's baptism and the Lord's Supper (communion). Thus, Baptists observe communion. Many Baptist churches are willing for elders/pastors to anoint the sick with oil when it is requested, but the New Testament does not teach that it is a required sacrament for the local church. Many Baptists may fast, but again the New Testament does not teach it as a required sacrament for the local church. Baptists believe in doing good works, but they do not believe that the Scriptures teach that good works are part of the requirements for salvation.

I must agree here. Also in my church we do anoint the sick with oil. This is done by the Pastor and Deacons of the church.

[Phileoeklogos]

Although the things listed by Dave are in and of themselves, " good things " when rightly understood and performed, these same things can be an affront to God when done for the purpose of receiving merit or in hopes of gettin on God's "good list ".

I know someone will shake their head and say Why?, well for one , we can do nothing to add to God, as He already possess all, and I think most everbody understands that, secondly, all the things listed are acts of worship of sorts, and all worship is due God, ie... due service.

The reason why these things can be an affront to God when they are done seeking merit or to please God, is because they show a disdain for what God has done, the believer in Christ, has received unmerited favor, Grace, all spritual blessings in the heavenlies, and is accepted in His Beloved Son in Whom, God is well pleased, we can add nothing to what He has done, and He will love us no more for doing anything, He already loves us, when we offer up something to God for merit , we say to God, what You have provided is not enough.

Yes, there are many things in Scripture that are said to be pleasing to God, God is certainly pleased when the hungry are fed, the naked clothed, the widows and orphans are cared for, but these things too are acts of worship on our part when done rightly and bring praise to God because they are done to proclaim His goodness.

Dave don't think I'm taking a stab at you because we Prots have our share of this kind of thing, I, for years tried to climb the ladder to get one step closer to heaven, working to stay saved, or get more saved, not understanding God's grace in Jesus Christ, that I could rest in the True Sabbath. Dave if you are in Christ, you are already pleasing to God and can't be more so.....

[Hisbygrace]

Although the things listed by Dave are in and of themselves, " good things " when rightly understood and performed, these same things can be an affront to God when done for the purpose of receiving merit or in hopes of gettin on God's "good list ".

I know someone will shake their head and say Why?, well for one , we can do nothing to add to God, as He already possess all, and I think most everbody understands that, secondly, all the things listed are acts of worship of sorts, and all worship is due God, ie... due service.

The reason why these things can be an affront to God when they are done seeking merit or to please God, is because they show a disdain for what God has done, the believer in Christ, has received unmerited favor, Grace, all spritual blessings in the heavenlies, and is accepted in His Beloved Son in Whom, God is well pleased, we can add nothing to what He has done, and He will love us no more for doing anything, He already loves us, when we offer up something to God for merit , we say to God, what You have provided is not enough.

Yes, there are many things in Scripture that are said to be pleasing to God, God is certainly pleased when the hungry are fed, the naked clothed, the widows and orphans are cared for, but these things too are acts of worship on our part when done rightly and bring praise to God because they are done to proclaim His goodness.

Dave don't think I'm taking a stab at you because we Prots have our share of this kind of thing, I, for years tried to climb the ladder to get one step closer to heaven, working to stay saved, or get more saved, not understanding God's grace in Jesus Christ, that I could rest in the True Sabbath. Dave if you are in Christ, you are already pleasing to God and can't be more so.....

Amen! Could not be better said. Thank you.

[IisJustMe]

From what i hear Baptists do not believe in confession which is instituted by Christ in Matthew 20:23,Really? Matthew 20:23? This verse right here?
He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
Hmmm ... interesting.
and in James.I believe James says to confess to one another, not a priest or a pastor specifically. Making it a formal "sacrament" goes beyond the intent of both Jesus and his half-brother, James. By encouraging his fellow believers to confess to one another, James was anticipating the "easy way out" of confessing to a priest and expecting things to be set aright despite the will and law of God (love Him, love others) being ignored. If you have to tell those who know you how dark your heart is, you are more likely to let in the Light instead of skulking into a confessional once a week (if that often) and listing your sins like ordering from a Chinese take-out menu. It isn't sufficient.
Annointing of the sick with oil Please note, it isn't the oil that is given the priority in James 5:14, but prayer. Elsewhere in his book, James says "The fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."
Communion instituted in 1 corinthans, and Fasting instituted in Matthew 6:16-19, by Christ himself In fact, the Lord's Supper is an ordinance of the body under the SBC's "Baptist Faith and Message" ...

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#vii

... as is baptism, but we do not elevate it to something that saves. Only Christ saves, and only when we make a true confession of faith in His saving act of death on the cross -- a confession adequate for God to accept and extend that salvation -- do we come to realize eternal life in Christ.

Don't get me wrong. None of your practices as listed here are bad. In fact, they are all very, very good. But they should not be made a matter of salvation. They are not. Like all good works, they are the evidence of salvation, which is what James was speaking of in James 2:14.

Paul wrote of vertical faith, that which comes down to us from God. James wrote of horizontal faith, i.e., putting that faith into action to make a difference in this world and lead others to Christ.

[TwinCrier]

this is good to hear.

but do these things make God happy right?Absolutely! :thumbsup:
Matthew 6:3-5 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[jsimms615]

From what i hear Baptists do not believe in confession which is instituted by Christ in Matthew 20:23, and in James. Annointing of the sick with OIL, instutited in James. Communion instituted in 1 corinthans, and Fasting instituted in Matthew 6:16-19, by Christ himself.


Do these things not make God happy? I ask this because i heard baptists do not practice communion, anointing with the sick with oil and fasting as there sacrements? I do believe you have one which is baptism, so why ignore the rest?
I know of Baptist churches that practice all of those things, but we don't call them sacraments. We limit sacraments generally to baptism and the Lord's Supper.
I don't fast because I am diabetic, but some Baptist do that also.

[Jessica01]

If Baptists are anti-work then I have been trying way too hard to follow Christ's teachings and doing too much in the area of charity!!

[dave90]

Really? Matthew 20:23? This verse right here?
He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
Hmmm ... interesting.




Sorry I meant John 20:23

[DeaconDean]

Sorry I meant John 20:23

You mean this:

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." -Jn. 20:23

That was an authority given only to the disciples of that time.

Theologian John Gill wrote this commentary:


John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit…
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see (Mark 16:16 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mr+16:16)) (Luke 24:47 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+24:47)) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=joh&chapter=20&verse=23

The gospel must be preached first. Then those who repent, confess, and believe, they were allowed to announce whether or not their sins were forgiven or retained. The book of Acts tells us over and over that the message was preached first. Beginning at Pentecost.

Matthew Henry says:

"Now this follows upon their receiving the Holy Ghost; for, if they had not had an extraordinary spirit of discerning, they had not been fit to be entrusted with such an authority; for, in the strictest sense, this is a special commission to the apostles themselves and the first preachers of the gospel, who could distinguish who were in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity, and who were not. Yet it must be understood as a general charter to the church and her ministers, not securing an infallibility of judgment to any man or company of men in the world, but encouraging the faithful stewards of the mysteries of God to stand to the gospel they were sent to preach, for that God himself will stand to it. The apostles, in preaching remission, must begin at Jerusalem, though she had lately brought upon herself the guilt of Christ’s blood: "Yet you may declare their sins remitted upon gospel terms.’’ And Peter did so, Acts 2:38; 3:19. Christ, being risen for our justification, sends his gospel heralds to proclaim the jubilee begun, the act of indemnity now passed; and by this rule men shall be judged, ch. 12:48; Rom. 2:16; Jam. 2:12. God will never alter this rule of judgment, nor vary from it; those whom the gospel acquits shall be acquitted, and those whom the gospel condemns shall be condemned, which puts immense honour upon the ministry, and should put immense courage into ministers. Two ways the apostles and ministers of Christ remit and retain sin, and both as having authority:—[1.] By sound doctrine. They are commissioned to tell the world that salvation is to be had upon gospel terms, and no other, and they shall find God will say Amen to it; so shall their doom be. [2.] By a strict discipline, applying the general rule of the gospel to particular persons. "Whom you admit into communion with you, according to the rules of the gospel, God will admit into communion with himself; and whom you cast out of communion as impenitent, and obstinate in scandalous and infectious sins, shall be bound over to the righteous judgment of God.’’

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=joh&chapter=20#Joh20_23

Jamison, Fasset, and Brown say:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, &c.--In any literal and authoritative sense this power was never exercised by one of the apostles, and plainly was never understood by themselves as possessed by them or conveyed to The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense--as the authorized interpreters of His word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=joh&chapter=20#Joh20_23


Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Whosesoever sins ye forgive (an tinwn aphte taß amartiaß). "If the sins of any ye forgive" (aphte, second aorist active subjunctive with an in the sense of ean), a condition of the third class. Precisely so with "retain" (krathte, present active subjunctive of kratew). They are forgiven (apewntai). Perfect passive indicative of apihmi, Doric perfect for apeintai. Are retained (kekrathntai). Perfect passive indicative of kratew. The power to forgive sin belongs only to God, but Jesus claimed to have this power and right (Mark 2:5-7 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=Mr+2:5-7)). What he commits to the disciples and to us is the power and privilege of giving assurance of the forgiveness of sins by God by correctly announcing the terms of forgiveness. There is no proof that he actually transferred to the apostles or their successors the power in and of themselves to forgive sins. In Matthew 16:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=Mt+16:19); Matthew 18:18 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=Mt+18:18) we have a similar use of the rabbinical metaphor of binding and loosing by proclaiming and teaching. Jesus put into the hands of Peter and of all believers the keys of the Kingdom which we should use to open the door for those who wish to enter. This glorious promise applies to all believers who will tell the story of Christ's love for men.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=joh&chapter=20&verse=23

So as Baptists, we tend to interpret this verse different than the Catholic church.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

And does not even your own Clement of Rome teach:

"Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, "Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven." All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them...We see, then, how all righteous men have been adorned with good works, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength. " -1 Clement 32:1-8; 33:5,16-17

And here also:

"Let us therefore, with all haste, put an end to this [state of things]; and let us fall down before the Lord, and beseech Him with tears, that He would mercifully be reconciled to us, and restore us to our former seemly and holy practice of brotherly love. For [such conduct] is the gate of righteousness, which is set open for the attainment of life, as it is written, "Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go in by them, and will praise the Lord: this is the gate of the Lord: the righteous shall enter in by it." Although, therefore, many gates have been set open, yet this gate of righteousness is that gate in Christ by which blessed are all they that have entered in and have directed their way in holiness and righteousness, doing all things without disorder. Let a man be faithful: let him be powerful in the utterance of knowledge; let him be wise in judging of words; let him be pure in all his deeds; yet the more he seems to be superior to others , the more humble-minded ought he to be, and to seek the common good of all, and not merely his own advantage. Let him who has love in Christ keep the commandments of Christ. Who can describe the bond of the love of God? What man is able to tell the excellence of its beauty, as it ought to be told? The height to which love exalts is unspeakable. Love unites us to God. Love covers a multitude of sins. Love bears all things, is long-suffering in all things. There is nothing base, nothing arrogant in love. Love admits of no schisms: love gives rise to no seditions: love does all things in harmony. [B][I]By love have all the elect of God been made perfect; without love nothing is well-pleasing to God. In love has the Lord taken us to Himself. On account of the Love he bore us, Jesus Christ our Lord gave His blood for us by the will of God; His flesh for our flesh, and His soul for our souls." -1 Clement 48-49

And one last one:

"May God, who sees all things, and who is the Ruler of all spirits and the Lord of all flesh -- who chose our Lord Jesus Christ and us through Him to be a peculiar people -- grant to every soul that calls upon His glorious and holy Name, faith, fear, peace, patience, long-suffering, self-control, purity, and sobriety, to the well-pleasing of His Name, through our High Priest and Protector, Jesus Christ, by whom be to Him glory, and majesty, and power, and honour, both now and for evermore. Amen." -1 Clement 58

Words of wisdom are spoken here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[IisJustMe]

Sorry I meant John 20:23First, how can we trust that you have carefully considered your viewpoint if you are so careless about posting a verse address?

Second, Jesus did not impart the power of forgiveness to the disciples here, not in the same sense that He forgives. That power is not in any man, as only the shed blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the price for man's (collectively) sin, and only an acceptable confession (i.e., true and heartfelt) of one's acceptance of that truth provides true forgiveness. Although you may argue that it is the same Greek word as Christ uses for His ability to forgive sins (aphiemi) the fact remains you cannot put this text in disagreement with the rest of Scriptures, which clearly and consistently teach that no man can forgive sins in an eternal sense, only in the sense of the wrong done to him, and him alone. Even then, that forgiveness is only temporal in effect as far as the one doing the wrong is concerned. It has no eternal effect, for only Christ can forgive that sin to heavenly effect.

In John chapter 20, Christ charged the apostles to declare the forgiveness of sin through Jesus and Him alone. That power did not abide in the apostles as a power to give judgment, but as a power to declare the character of those whom God would accept or reject in the day of judgment. In doing so, Jesus is commanding them to preach Him for forgiveness of sin, defining the method by which those who express that previously mentioned true and heartfelt confession may be recognized and distinguished from a pretender to salvation. According to what the apostles have declared -- which was commanded them by Jesus in the verse you have cited, and which is nothing less than what He declares in Scripture throughout the Bible -- shall every case be decided in the day of judgment.