God's Perfect Hatred

[B®ent]

Our God is a God of Love, but also a God of Hate. Too common is the myth that God "hates the sin but loves the sinner." This is a lie! In many instances, as evident in the scriptures, God hates the individual who commits the wicked deed. Yes, it is true that our God is a God of Love, but He is also a God of Hate.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:13-15)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (Psalm 11:5)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. (Hosea 9:15)

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. (Leviticus 20:23)

:amen: Praise be to our God, for He is a Holy!

[staveoffzombies]

Ripping a few verses out of context does not make any kind of case that God "hates" anyone.

[MaidforHim]

I imagine that God, being able to see all that is in a persons heart and mind, and being able to see the beginning and end of time and all that happens in between... I would think God can see those individuals that have no good in them, no desire for good, no remorse for their wicked deeds, those that embrace evil and always will, those that their evil ways to the end of their lives without ever looking back.

I could understand how God could hate someone like that.

For example: How long would a man/woman have to go on murdering innocent children, sacrificing them to idols, worshipping satan, without ever feeling remorse, but rather doing these things with zeal... how long, how many times before those deeds are not only what they do, but who they are?

If God can see they never turn away from the sin, but always revel in it in flat out defiance of Him.... How could God not hate them?

Also, if you know your Bible, you know which texts those verses were taken from, the meaning is clear. I think God hated certain individuals for very just reasons.

[B®ent]

That is an excellent assessment, MaidforHim. :)

[MaidforHim]

That is an excellent assessment, MaidforHim. :)
Thank you Brent, this is a great topic.

I think too many new age ideas and cults base their false beliefs on the fact that God has only love. Like He has no wrath, but the Bible clearly tells us that He does. He even says He's a jealous God. Hatred, jealousy and anger might be sins in man in most cases, but I believe God has a righteous and Holy version of these emotions. In His righteousness and pure fairness and His love, I think God appropriatly feels a righteous form of these emotions towards certain evil individuals, or situations.

[staveoffzombies]

Of course God has WRATH. God has plenty of wrath. And he hates sin in all it's manifistations. But He does not hate a sinner...someone who is not saved is STILL made in God's image remember.

[desmalia]

Thank you Brent, this is a great topic.

I think too many new age ideas and cults base their false beliefs on the fact that God has only love. Like He has no wrath, but the Bible clearly tells us that He does. He even says He's a jealous God. Hatred, jealousy and anger might be sins in man in most cases, but I believe God has a righteous and Holy version of these emotions. In His righteousness and pure fairness and His love, I think God appropriatly feels a righteous form of these emotions towards certain evil individuals, or situations.
And all God's people said
:amen:

Well said! :thumbsup:

[mothcorrupteth]

You forget one very telling verse, B®ent (I like your user name, by the way ):"These six hath Jehovah hated, Yea, seven [are] abominations to His soul. Eyes high--tongues false--And hands shedding innocent blood--A heart devising thoughts of vanity--Feet hasting to run to evil--A false witness [who] doth breathe out lies--And one sending forth contentions between brethren." (Prov. 6:16-19, Young's Literal)These are all descriptions of sin--told through the body parts. Notice that it is not just the haughtiness and lying and murdering God hates; it is also the eyes and tongues and hands that express them. And it graduates up to entire persons--"a false witness" and on "one sending forth contentions." If God "hates the sin but loves the sinner," why does His wrath abide upon that which does the sin? As it is written in Matthew 18:9, "[i]f thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire." God hates sinners.

But just for the benefit of staveoffzombies, who here can corroborate this with John 3:16? "For God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting." If God hates sin, and the world is in sin, then how did He love the world?

[B®ent]

Moth,

The term 'World' in John 3:16 is translated from the Greek term 'kosmos', which does not always refer to every individual human being; but often to a great number of people. Of course, God does command a 'general love' toward unbelievers. However, some unbelievers are especially wicked (i.e. Saddam Hussein) -- I believe these are the individuals hated by God.


Stave,

But He does not hate a sinner...The verses I posted clearly demonstrate otherwise...

[staveoffzombies]

kosmos:

the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

[B®ent]

the inhabitants of the earth, men,

Bingo! 'Kosmos' sometimes refers to a great number of men (and women), and not necessarily each and every human being in the whole world. This depends on the context of the passage. In the case of John 3:16, I would argue that Jesus is speaking of God's love toward the Elect people.

The same principle applies to the word 'all'. Did the Christians in Acts 2:45 divide their possessions to every human being in the entire world?

Acts 2:45

Doubtful. ;)

Did John baptize every human being in Jerusalem?
Including the Pharisees?

Mark 1:5

Point-proven.

- Brent

[staveoffzombies]

"And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

This is talking about those who had need, it's obviously not talking about EVERYONE in the world.

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Again, this is obviously not talking about everyone.

I fail to see how this proves a point in relation to John 3:16. John 3:16 says nothing about any "elect" it says the world. Unless the translation itself is in error?

[B®ent]

This is talking about those who had need, it's obviously not talking about EVERYONE in the world.

I know. That was my point!
In some cases, 'all' is not all-inclusive.

I fail to see how this proves a point in relation to John 3:16. John 3:16 says nothing about any "elect" it says the world.

The context, I believe, is "whosoever believeth in him..."

Unless the translation itself is in error?

Not a chance.

If you wish to discuss this further, please begin a new thread in another forum.

[staveoffzombies]

The context, I believe, is "whosoever believeth in him..."

Yes, but the "world" part of that comes BEFORE the "whosoever believeth."

But I'll stop here as you don't wish for this to turn into a long drawn out debate. No hard feelings. :)

[jlujan69]

God's hatred, like His wrath, is perfectly moral, so it's possible that the hatred He feels for certain individuals is not the same as the hatred we feel for our fellow man. Also, consider that Jesus said that whoever doesn't hate father and mother isn't worthy of Him. Obviously, Jesus isn't advocating the same kind of hatred that makes us murderers at heart.

[mothcorrupteth]

Moth,

The term 'World' in John 3:16 is translated from the Greek term 'kosmos', which does not always refer to every individual human being; but often to a great number of people.Indeed. I heard a U.K. minister one time who explain that "loved," being in the Aorist tense in the Greek, was an action. This didn't make any sense to me, as consideration of the Aorist adds nothing to the sense of the verse except to reflect that this "love" is temporally boundless, which is a no brainer.

[RealityCheck]

Hate is evil. Therefore, if you say God hates, then God is evil.

[mothcorrupteth]

Hate is evil. Therefore, if you say God hates, then God is evil.Premise Minor: God is absolutely good.
Check of Proof: Psalm 118:1,29 - Matthew 19:17 - Luke 18:19 - John 10:32 - Romans 11:22 - 3. John 1:11
Put another way: All things of God are good.


Premise Major: God does hate.
Check of Proof: Leviticus 20:23 - Psalm 5:5 - Psalm 11:5 - Prov. 6:16-19 - Hosea 9:15 - Romans 9:13-15
Put another way: Some things of God are hateful.


Simple syllogism: Some hate (God's, at least) must be good.
Conclusion: Thus, the premise "Hate is evil" cannot be absolutely true.

[RealityCheck]

Your minor premise is flawed, as the Bible clearly states that God is not only the source of good, but also of evil:

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jeremiah 49: 37 - For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

Exodus 32:14 - And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jonah 3:10 - And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

[mothcorrupteth]

Then excuse me: I ought have said, "All things of God's nature are good," and, "Some things of God's nature are hateful." The last verses you call forth refer to acts, namely of pronouncing judgment and creating distress, and use the term "evil" not in the sense of wickedness, perversion, etc. (moral evils), but in the sense of, "Bad things were in store for them because they were disobedient little cretins yet again." The notions that "God is evil" and "evils come from God" are as completely separate premises as are the grammatical categories into which "evil" falls in either.

Besides which, you just shot yourself in the foot if you fail to make this distinction because you formerly ridiculed the notion that God hates on the grounds that it would render God evil.

[RealityCheck]

Then excuse me: I ought have said, "All things of God's nature are good," and, "Some things of God's nature are hateful." The last verses you call forth refer to acts, namely of pronouncing judgment and creating distress, and use the term "evil" not in the sense of wickedness, perversion, etc. (moral evils), but in the sense of, "Bad things were in store for them because they were disobedient little cretins yet again." The notions that "God is evil" and "evils come from God" are as completely separate premises as are the grammatical categories into which "evil" falls in either.

Besides which, you just shot yourself in the foot if you fail to make this distinction because you formerly ridiculed the notion that God hates on the grounds that it would render God evil.


That would assume that I accept the premise that every word of the Bible speaks the truth - which I do not.

In any case, you've gotten into a semantic dance, trying to somehow say that even though evil comes from God, God is not evil. Well, then what's the ultimate source of evil?

[mothcorrupteth]

That would assume that I accept the premise that every word of the Bible speaks the truth - which I do not.No, it would assume that you have an internal consistency to your position--which you do not.

In any case, you've gotten into a semantic dance, trying to somehow say that even though evil comes from God, God is not evil. Well, then what's the ultimate source of evil?
No semantic dance--only a rudimentary understanding of the English and Hebrew languages. I explained it pretty clearly in my last post, but since you don't seem to comprehend it, then I'll not cast my pearls again.

[AJB4]

I suggest you pay close attention:

Romans 8:39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:39;&version=9;):
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 5:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=44&version=9&context=verse):
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

1 John 4:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&verse=8&version=9&context=verse):
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

By these three verses we notice a few things:

1) NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God, so...that means that God hates nobody, and can't hate anybody, otherwise he'd be a liar.

2) God told us to love our enemies no matter what they do to us. Don't you think that God would practise what he taught, and love everybody no matter what they did to him?

3) God IS love. Where there is love, there is God. Some people erroneously think that God and love are two different things. This is wrong. God IS love. Love IS God.

4) If God could hate someone, then this would make him fallible, something we know he's not.

Anybody that is part of a church that teaches that God hates is a church that needs to be avoided at all costs. Don't just walk away, RUN away. DANGEOUS CULT ALERT.

[mothcorrupteth]

1) NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God, so...that means that God hates nobody, and can't hate anybody, otherwise he'd be a liar.SIN separates us from the Love of God (John 9:31, Romans 3:23, 1. John 3:8). Romans 8:39 is merely repeating to the Roman church the idea that "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29), which would require that "they" be in His hand in the first place. It also requires that they be sheep, but it can't be that everyone is a sheep or else the shepherd would have no goats to set on the left hand (Matthew 25:33).

2) God told us to love our enemies no matter what they do to us. Don't you think that God would practise what he taught, and love everybody no matter what they did to him?But notice how he unpacks that commandment. "[b]less them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." He isn't saying have sentimental yuck for your enemies; he's saying do good to them. Rather than judge or do evil to his enemies, this is indeed what Jesus did in his earthly life (John 12:47) [although he did call them a "brood of vipers" (Matthew 23:33)], but when he returns, the good times end and the barbeque starts (John 5:22, Revelations 11:18).

3) God IS love. Where there is love, there is God. Some people erroneously think that God and love are two different things. This is wrong. God IS love. Love IS God.An "x IS y" statement, unlike an "x = y" is not reversible. God's nature is love, but not everything we call "love" is God. Moreover, if God is loving, then we would expect to find that he is also just, because justice is loving. It is for the good of mankind and for His kingdom.

4) If God could hate someone, then this would make him fallible, something we know he's not.This is only true if you are operating under the premise that all hate must be morally evil.

Anybody that is part of a church that teaches that God hates is a church that needs to be avoided at all costs. Don't just walk away, RUN away. DANGEOUS CULT ALERT.Not a fan of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," then, are we? If God is just and God despises iniquity, then a hate for its workers is exactly what we'd expect to find.

[RealityCheck]

Anyone who believes that what God hates is what you hate, is guilty of making God in their own image.

[mothcorrupteth]

I ask you to think about who is cherry-picking her image of God when it is you who have claimed, "That would assume that I accept the premise that every word of the Bible speaks the truth - which I do not." Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Where have I said that God hates what I hate? I have been telling you (as others here already have) where it can be found in Scripture what God hates, and if you have a friendship with what God hates, if you pitch your tent even unto the gates of Sodom, then your soul is in danger. Do not go to what God hates, but flee from it and don't look back. "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance..." So let's get something straight. You don't have a problem with the messenger, because I have not even mentioned what I hate. You have a problem with the Message--"The world cannot hate you, but me [Jesus] it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." Do not play with the lake of fire.

[RealityCheck]

"The world cannot hate you, but me [Jesus] it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil."


And how is that possible? How can the works of the world be evil, and hated by God, if, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

[mothcorrupteth]

We've been over that already earlier in the thread.

[No Swansong]

CF rule 1.4 states;

1.4 Congregational Areas

You may post in any of the Congregational Forums if you agree with the contents of the Nicene Creed and the Trinitarian nature of God, but you may not argue or debate with members of particular denominations and groups in their congregational areas unless you are a member of that particular denomination or group.



The definition of Fundamentalism that has been adopted by this forum is;

Fundamentalist: (Defined by the World Congress of Fundamentalists in 1976)

A born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who
Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;
Believes whatever the Bible says is so;
Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";
Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
The doctrine of the Trinity
The incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, ascension into Heaven, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
The new birth through regeneration of the Holy Spirit
The resurrection of saints to life eternal
The resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death
The fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ;
Practices fidelity to that faith, and endeavors to preach it to every creature;
Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth; and
Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.
Therefore, Fundamentalism is a militant orthodoxy with a soulwinning zeal. While Fundamentalists may differ on certain interpretations of Scripture, we join in unity of heart and common purpose for the defense of the Faith and the preaching of the Gospel, without compromise or division.



It has been suggested that some taking part in this debate are not Fundamentalists. I would ask that those who do not meet the definition of Fundamentalist that we utilize here refrain from debate. Of course we welcome fellowship posts and questions.

[Ceridwen]

God operates retribution as a response to moral evil.

This retribution is a retribution of evil rather than good; God's punishment in hell is not intended to correct non-Christians. Thus, God punishes them out of hatred of them rather than love of them.

God hates non-Christians.

[B®ent]

Anyone who believes that what God hates is what you hate, is guilty of making God in their own image.

Well, the Bible says God does hate some people. That's enough for me. :)

[AJB4]

"The world cannot hate you, but me [Jesus] it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil."

That verse is saying that the world hates Jesus, rather than the other way around.

[mothcorrupteth]

That verse is saying that the world hates Jesus, rather than the other way around.Yes. I was using the verse to illustrate my point that RealityCheck didn't, in fact, have a quarrel with me; she had a quarrel with the Word.

[kobuk]

Logic tells me that when we ascribe any attribute to our Creator, we have to keep in mind that we don't create the rules. I can't sit here and define who our Creator is apart from the Scriptures.

In the Scriptures there are some things we learn about that our Creator does hate. But it's His hatred as defined by Himself. Something that goes totally against Him in a profane way, like abortion does, i've no doubt He hates. The most barbaric, vile and disgusting things.

But i think we have to make sure we don't force our thoughts into the definition of His thoughts. His hatred is something we can't completely define. It goes just far to deep for any mortal man to understand. We will begin to discover the depths of His love and other distinguishing characteristics later in Heaven.

These thoughts are a continuation of the logical open discussion i started with.

[Iosias]

Too common is the myth that God "hates the sin but loves the sinner." This is a lie!


:amen:

[doctrellor]

> Well, the Bible says God does hate some people. That's enough > for me. :)

I don't have my Strongs concordance here with me to check my scriptures.

So you have the verses handy, I just wanna make sure that no scripture bending is taking place

[B®ent]

> Well, the Bible says God does hate some people. That's enough > for me. :)

I don't have my Strongs concordance here with me to check my scriptures.

So you have the verses handy, I just wanna make sure that no scripture bending is taking place

Did you read the first post? :scratch:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

[...]

[B®ent]

All straight from the Bible...

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:13-15)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (Psalm 11:5)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. (Hosea 9:15)

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. (Leviticus 20:23)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

[]

[doctrellor]

Did you read the first post? :scratch:
nope, I didn't actually..:(

I'll look at it so I can what the thread was about...

[Silent Enigma]

This discussion is helping verify certain things for me. Thank you.