Read "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn?

[FallingWaters]

I just started attending a Sunday night discipleship class where we are studying the book "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn.

I am terrified of being taught heresy.

I know I can trust the teacher of the class since she is the godliest woman I know,
and she is as excellent a teacher as Kay Arthur.
However, I don't know if she has read the whole book yet.

I am only up to the first chapter, and I can say it's already doing great violence to my paradigm!

Is there anyone here who has read the whole book and have any comments about its accuracy or theological soundness?

[Sword-In-Hand]

I'm surprised people would teach a class based on the book, because Alcorn himself says this is all speculation, which isn't wrong to do.

I mean we all have our own picture of what heaven will be like. I don't think that's heresy.

[lucypevensie]

I have this book and have read 3/4 of it. I don't like to read some kinds of books too fast. I think there are some good things in that book to think about. It's true, there is a lot of speculation in there, but it's not necessarily anti-Biblical. Somewhere toward the front Alcorn even encourages the reader to point out to him any errors a reader might find, which I think is a refreshing attitude from a writer.

One thing about the book is that it has gotten me more excited about my eternity than I have ever been before. It's not that the Bible isn't enough, it's that I haven't heard nearly enough sermons and discussions on the topic! Hadn't thought about what the Bible says nearly enough.

[PrincetonGuy]

Reading “Christian” books written by popular, seductive “Christian” writers having a sub-standard education and posing for photos holding up honorary degrees can be dangerous to one’s spiritual health, especially when their books present theological notions that are based upon an exceptionally poor understanding the New Testament and consequently are notions which contradict both the Bible and the historical interpretation of it. Mr. Alcorn’s view of heaven is not only non-biblical—it paints a very false picture of it where at first there will be great suffering and only later the freedom from it, making a pitiful mockery of the glory of heaven and the creator of it.

[aReformedPatriot]

I tend to leave books like this alone and think of the authors as weirdos.

[lucypevensie]

Mr. Alcorn’s view of heaven is not only non-biblical—it paints a very false picture of it where at first there will be great suffering and only later the freedom from it, making a pitiful mockery of the glory of heaven and the creator of it.

I am just wondering what you mean by this (the part I bolded, I mean). I don't understand.

[PrincetonGuy]

I am just wondering what you mean by this (the part I bolded, I mean). I don't understand.

I have time to post only one example. Isa. 65:16-17 reads,

Isa. 65:16. "Because he who is blessed in the earth Will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight!
Isa. 65:17. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. (NASB, 1995)

Mr. Alcorn disagrees and writes,

However, this verse should be viewed in context. It's linked to the previous verse, in which God says, "For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes." This doesn't suggest literal lack of memory, as if the omniscient God couldn't recall the past. Rather, it's like God's comment to Jeremiah: "I...will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34). It means that God chooses not to bring up our past sins or hold them against us. In eternity, past sins and sorrows won't preoccupy God or us. We'll be capable of choosing not to recall or dwell on anything that would diminish Heaven's joy....We learned that the martyrs now in the intermediate Heaven remember what happened on Earth, including that they endured great suffering (Revelation 6:9-11). Jesus promised that in Heaven, those who endured bad things on Earth would be comforted for them (Luke 16:25). The comfort implies memory of what happened. If we had no memory of the bad things, why would we need comfort? How would we feel it?

Our minds will be clearer in Heaven, not foggier. Memory is basic to personality. The law of continuity requires that we will remember our past lives. Heaven cleanses our slate of sin and error, but it doesn't erase our memory of it." (pp. 331-332)

Many men and women do not get saved until after many years of the most horrific experiences. Randy Alcorn, contrary to direct statements from the Bible, believes that these memories will remain with us, and he bases his contrary-to-the-Bible beliefs on the philosophies of men, in this case what he calls “the law of continuity,” a philosophical concept diametrically opposed to the Christian teaching of the new birth in Christ, redemption from both sin and the power of sin, and a new heaven and a new earth. According to Mr. Alcorn, we will enter into heaven sobbing and God will eventually wipe away our tears until they come back again due to our not being freed from the past. He teaches elsewhere that in heaven we will be able to discipline ourselves not to dwell on unpleasant memories. How pathetic!

[FallingWaters]

I have time to post only one example. Isa. 65:16-17 reads,

Isa. 65:16. "Because he who is blessed in the earth Will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight!
Isa. 65:17. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. (NASB, 1995)

Mr. Alcorn disagrees and writes,

However, this verse should be viewed in context. It's linked to the previous verse, in which God says, "For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes." This doesn't suggest literal lack of memory, as if the omniscient God couldn't recall the past. Rather, it's like God's comment to Jeremiah: "I...will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34). It means that God chooses not to bring up our past sins or hold them against us. In eternity, past sins and sorrows won't preoccupy God or us. We'll be capable of choosing not to recall or dwell on anything that would diminish Heaven's joy....We learned that the martyrs now in the intermediate Heaven remember what happened on Earth, including that they endured great suffering (Revelation 6:9-11). Jesus promised that in Heaven, those who endured bad things on Earth would be comforted for them (Luke 16:25). The comfort implies memory of what happened. If we had no memory of the bad things, why would we need comfort? How would we feel it?

Our minds will be clearer in Heaven, not foggier. Memory is basic to personality. The law of continuity requires that we will remember our past lives. Heaven cleanses our slate of sin and error, but it doesn't erase our memory of it." (pp. 331-332)

Many men and women do not get saved until after many years of the most horrific experiences. Randy Alcorn, contrary to direct statements from the Bible, believes that these memories will remain with us, and he bases his contrary-to-the-Bible beliefs on the philosophies of men, in this case what he calls “the law of continuity,” a philosophical concept diametrically opposed to the Christian teaching of the new birth in Christ, redemption from both sin and the power of sin, and a new heaven and a new earth. According to Mr. Alcorn, we will enter into heaven sobbing and God will eventually wipe away our tears until they come back again due to our not being freed from the past. He teaches elsewhere that in heaven we will be able to discipline ourselves not to dwell on unpleasant memories. How pathetic!Thank you.
I will definitely proceed carefully.
The second edition is in print now, and he has made some changes from the first edition, based on reader feedback.
It's possible that this could be one of those issues, but I'll watch out for it.

So are you saying we won't be able to remember our lives on earth at all?

[FallingWaters]

Personally, the more I read, the more depressed I'm getting.
I've wanted to go to heaven my whole life, and now I'm dreading it.
If it's going to be just like earth, I can't imagine enjoying it.
Working, eating, sleeping... for all eternity.
I'm getting exhausted just thinking about it.

[PrincetonGuy]

So are you saying we won't be able to remember our lives on earth at all?


No, I am not saying that at all! But whatever we do remember will be to the glory of God rather than the devil.

The Bible, compared to Randy Alcorn, tells us very little about heaven, and I don’t believe that God intended for us to figure out exactly what it will be like. However, the Apostle Paul wrote,

2 Cor. 12:2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
4. was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. (NASB, 1995)

And having seen and heard what he did, he later wrote,

Phil. 1:21. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24. yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (NASB, 1995)

Instead of trying to figure out what heaven will be like, I believe that God would have us to place our faith in Him without reservation and live our lives, not for ourselves, but for Him.

Matt. 10:39. "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Matt. 16:25. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Luke 9:24. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Luke 17:33. "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

John 12:25. "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

(NASB, 1995)

[FallingWaters]

No, I am not saying that at all! But whatever we do remember will be to the glory of God rather than the devil.

The Bible, compared to Randy Alcorn, tells us very little about heaven, and I don’t believe that God intended for us to figure out exactly what it will be like. However, the Apostle Paul wrote,

2 Cor. 12:2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
4. was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. (NASB, 1995)

And having seen and heard what he did, he later wrote,

Phil. 1:21. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24. yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (NASB, 1995)

Instead of trying to figure out what heaven will be like, I believe that God would have us to place our faith in Him without reservation and live our lives, not for ourselves, but for Him.

Matt. 10:39. "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Matt. 16:25. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Luke 9:24. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Luke 17:33. "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

John 12:25. "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

(NASB, 1995)I agree with you.

I am dreading this book more and more.
Even though I love my teacher, I don't think I can keep reading the book.
I have always been more of a Mary than a Martha.
I skimmed the part of Alcorn's book you referenced yesterday.
It covered whether we're going to sleep in heaven.
From what I've read so far, his imaginings- it seems to me- would be a lot more pleasing to a Martha than a Mary.
Additionally, I think it would be pleasing to those whose affections are so firmly rooted in earthly life,
they don't ever want to leave it.

While some people may think it would be boring to be in an eternal worship service worshiping God 27/7,
I don't have that problem.

I thought Heaven was supposed to be a land of REST.
I have frequently imagined myself sitting at Jesus' feet, just being with Him.
Alcorn's Heaven sounds tiresome to me.

[Sword-In-Hand]

I thought Heaven was supposed to be a land of REST.
I have frequently imagined myself sitting at Jesus' feet, just being with Him.
Alcorn's Heaven sounds tiresome to me.

If the book is causing depression, stop reading it. I'm sure your teacher would understand.

I'm not defending Alcorn, but there are alot of Christians who believe we will have "jobs" in heaven. Not like we work here persay, but doing things that are pleasing to God. Like for instance I'm a writer, and I think it would be awesome to write for God's pleasure for eternity. I'd totally be the kid and say "Look at what I wrote Dad.":)
There's a difference between work and labor, and I think in heaven the labor will be finished.

I'm not one of those who believe all we are going to do is set around God's throne and sing "Amazing Grace" to Him. But when I think about it, as long as I get to spend eternity in the presence of Jesus, I don't really care what we have to do.

But again, I would stop reading the book if I were you. We can tell through Paul's writings that he longed for heaven more than anything, so it should never be a place we dread.

[lucypevensie]

I have time to post only one example. Isa. 65:16-17 reads,

Isa. 65:16. "Because he who is blessed in the earth Will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight!
Isa. 65:17. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. (NASB, 1995)

Mr. Alcorn disagrees and writes,

However, this verse should be viewed in context. It's linked to the previous verse, in which God says, "For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes." This doesn't suggest literal lack of memory, as if the omniscient God couldn't recall the past. Rather, it's like God's comment to Jeremiah: "I...will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34). It means that God chooses not to bring up our past sins or hold them against us. In eternity, past sins and sorrows won't preoccupy God or us. We'll be capable of choosing not to recall or dwell on anything that would diminish Heaven's joy....We learned that the martyrs now in the intermediate Heaven remember what happened on Earth, including that they endured great suffering (Revelation 6:9-11). Jesus promised that in Heaven, those who endured bad things on Earth would be comforted for them (Luke 16:25). The comfort implies memory of what happened. If we had no memory of the bad things, why would we need comfort? How would we feel it?

Our minds will be clearer in Heaven, not foggier. Memory is basic to personality. The law of continuity requires that we will remember our past lives. Heaven cleanses our slate of sin and error, but it doesn't erase our memory of it." (pp. 331-332)

Many men and women do not get saved until after many years of the most horrific experiences. Randy Alcorn, contrary to direct statements from the Bible, believes that these memories will remain with us, and he bases his contrary-to-the-Bible beliefs on the philosophies of men, in this case what he calls “the law of continuity,” a philosophical concept diametrically opposed to the Christian teaching of the new birth in Christ, redemption from both sin and the power of sin, and a new heaven and a new earth. According to Mr. Alcorn, we will enter into heaven sobbing and God will eventually wipe away our tears until they come back again due to our not being freed from the past. He teaches elsewhere that in heaven we will be able to discipline ourselves not to dwell on unpleasant memories. How pathetic!
hmm, OK. Thanks for your opinion.

[JPPT1974]

Maybe our "jobs" in heaven is
To look and care for those that we
Have left behind and that we will hopefully
One day see them in heaven.

[FallingWaters]

Maybe our "jobs" in heaven is
To look and care for those that we
Have left behind and that we will hopefully
One day see them in heaven.The book refers to the ultimate Heaven, after the end of the world.
There won't be any more people on earth.
All will have passed into eternity.

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

I was at a local Christian bookstore and they had a pamphlet that had the highlights from this book. It took bits from each chapter. I picked it up.

I personally did not like what I read. It was definitely speculation!

I am surprised your church is having a class on it. I guess it could be an interesting conversation starter as long as it is not presented as Biblical "fact".

I would never recommend it to someone new to Bible study. I think it would only confuse them.

[FallingWaters]

I was at a local Christian bookstore and they had a pamphlet that had the highlights from this book. It took bits from each chapter. I picked it up.

I personally did not like what I read. It was definitely speculation!

I am surprised your church is having a class on it. I guess it could be an interesting conversation starter as long as it is not presented as Biblical "fact".

I would never recommend it to someone new to Bible study. I think it would only confuse them.Hmmm.
Thank you for that input.

My Bible teacher is an excellent woman.
One of the best, most theologically sound teachers I have ever heard.
And certainly the godliest woman I have ever known personally.
I'm sure she will point out the differences between fiction and fact.

I should call her today and tell her about my misgivings.
I would quit the class entirely if it wasn't for her.
Sitting at her feet just gleaning the crumbs of her personal relationship with God and with the Word makes any class she teaches so worth it.

I will have to talk with her.
Perhaps she hasn't had a chance to read the whole thing.
The HYPE on the book seems quite convincing.
Perhaps it was highly recommended to her by someone she trusts.
Perhaps even she herself is having misgivings.

[Hisbygrace]

Personally, the more I read, the more depressed I'm getting.
I've wanted to go to heaven my whole life, and now I'm dreading it.
If it's going to be just like earth, I can't imagine enjoying it.
Working, eating, sleeping... for all eternity.
I'm getting exhausted just thinking about it.


But all those things will be exciting and a joy to do in heaven, because we will be doing the Father's will. I can't imagine a heaven where we will just sit and play harps all day. I am reading the book now, but I know that it is the speculations of Mr. Alcorn.

[FallingWaters]

I have been a student of the Bible for over 20 years.
In all that time, I have noticed precious little information concerning Heaven.

One of the things that I have noticed is that there are some passages that could be taken several different ways depending on your eschatology, like Rev 20:4-6.

Some passages could be referring to the 1000 year reign of Christ, and yet be taken as referring to Heaven.
Also some people think God's ultimate goal is to restore Eden to its original state.
I think Heaven is just as confusing a subject as the End Times and Millennium and I don't think it's an easy thing to discover.

My favorite theologian, Adam Clarke lived in the early 1800's, and I just recently read that in his day, the "Millennium" was thought to be 365,000 years!

Rev. 20:4-6
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (ESV)

Adam Clarke Commentary
"The last-quoted passage brings into view the doctrine of the Millennium, when Jesus, after having formed the new heavens and the new earth, shall reign here gloriously among his ancients 365,000 years; for the thousand years referred to above are certainly prophetical years, in which, it is well known, each day stands for a year.
Others, of no mean note, are of opinion that the regeneration means the conversion of men by the preaching of the Gospel - that sitting on twelve thrones signifies the state of eminent dignity to which the apostles should be raised - and that judging the twelve tribes of Israel, means no more than exercising authority in the Church, and dispensing laws to the people of God. But I confess I do not see the propriety of this application of the terms, as the following verse seems to fix the meaning mentioned above."

I think it's possible that Alcorn, believing himself to be describing Heaven, is in actuality describing the Millennium.

[FallingWaters]

But all those things will be exciting and a joy to do in heaven, because we will be doing the Father's will. I can't imagine a heaven where we will just sit and play harps all day. I am reading the book now, but I know that it is the speculations of Mr. Alcorn.Thank you.
You are right. Heaven will most certainly be a place of pleasure, no matter what we are doing.
But I don't like his speculations, and I don't want to put them in my head.
I am very visually oriented.
Once an image gets put in my mind, I have a hard time overcoming it.