Beliefs That Are Difficult To Convey

[SpiritPsalmist]

As a Charasmatic/Penticostal/Word of Faith Christian, what belief(s) do you hold to that seems to be the most difficult for you to convey to other Christians, either personally and/or on the forums, who do not believe the same way?

[AlabamaMan]

ewwwww good question, I will have to think on this and get back to you. My brain is perplexed!!

[HomeBound]

Reincarnation, and I believe some people who have had near death experiences did visit Heaven.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Reincarnation, and I believe some people who have had near death experiences did visit Heaven.

HomeBound,

You believe in reincarnation? I don't know of any Charasmatic/Penticostal/Word of Faith groups that teach reincarnation.

What do you think about Heb 9:27 "And it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"?

[SpiritPsalmist]

As a Charasmatic/Penticostal/Word of Faith Christian, what belief(s) do you hold to that seems to be the most difficult for you to convey to other Christians, either personally and/or on the forums, who do not believe the same way?

I think the most difficult subject I have tried to convey on here is healing. No matter how well I think I explain it, someone seems to get the idea that I'm telling them they are not faithful enough to Jesus. It's very frustrating.

[HomeBound]

I think the most difficult subject I have tried to convey on here is healing. No matter how well I think I explain it, someone seems to get the idea that I'm telling them they are not faithful enough to Jesus. It's very frustrating.

How is healing difficult to explain?

as for the previous post, a man dies, is judged according to the life he's lead, and based on that judgement, he either stays with God, or goes back, or goes elsewhere.

[BigToe]

I've never ever heard a Christian say they believed in reincarnation before. hmmph you learn something new every day.

I think the hardest thing for people to understand is what true trust in God is and why we should expect miracles and wonders from God. That and why God allows pain to exist.

[Andrew]

Wow, so many things Quaffer!

• that healing and prosperity are part of the redemptive work of Christ. ie the "health & wealth (derog) gospel" with been accused of preaching. *L
• how very righteous a Christian is.
• that God wants us to live long.
• that we are "little gods".
• OSAS.
• Speaking in tongues.... :)

as for the previous post, a man dies, is judged according to the life he's lead, and based on that judgement, he either stays with God, or goes back, or goes elsewhere.

That isnt reincarnation. Reincarnation means you are born again into the next life either as a higher being (if you've been good your previous life) or a lower being (if you've been naughty). eg from human to a dog if you've been mean to dogs. Or from a good human to a more holy human until you attain nirvana or something like that. :holy: :angel:

[SpiritPsalmist]

How is healing difficult to explain?

I guess I really have not had a difficult time of explaining but it's been difficult for some others to understand. People seem to get offended easily. . .not understanding that faith and/or the lack thereof has a lot to do with it. There's spiritual warfare involved a lot of the time and people tend to think you're telling them they are too weak of a christian. It took me a long time to understand it too. . .and I'm glad I kept after it.

as for the previous post, a man dies, is judged according to the life he's lead, and based on that judgement, he either stays with God, or goes back, or goes elsewhere.

Hmmmm! I was under the impression that "once" meant once. I'd like to discuss this with you further but not here. . .PM maybe?. . .would that be OK with you?

[victoryword]

Hi, I'm new to this forum but so far this looks like a nice safe place for the discussion of Charismatic and Word-Faith issues.

I really like Qaffer's question. I think I find the most difficult and frustrating doctrine to explain to people is the "Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine. Outside of the "little gods" teaching, this seems to draw the most flak from WoF critics.

I don't support all aspects of the teaching as taught in WoF circles (i.e. Jesus took on Satan's nature, Jesus was dragged to hell by demons and tortured,etc.) but I do believe Jesus experienced a seperation between Himself and the Father when He became sin for us (Matthew 27:45; 2 Cor. 5:21) and many other aspects of this teaching. I think the biggest difficulty I have is trying to convince opponents of this teaching that it was not something that orginated in Word-Faith circles (and in the writings of Kenyon). However, people often turn a blind eye to any proof that you give them.

Overcoming the false misrepresentations is the biggest obstacle. I have a hard time convincing people that the cross is important in WoF circles but that we do not limit the redemptive work to the cross alone. Scripture strongly emphasizes the importance of the RESSURECTION as well. I also have a difficult time convincing people that Faith Teachers indeed believe in the blood redemption. Anyway, I wrote nearly a whole apologetical online book on this subject which is on my webpage.

"The little gods" and certain statements such as us being "equal to God" (Copeland once taught this) can be very easily misunderstood and cause unnecessary controversy. More on that at another time.

[victoryword]

Reincarnation, and I believe some people who have had near death experiences did visit Heaven.

Homebound

I consider myself to be Charismatic and Word-Faith but you would have a difficult time convincing me of reincarnation. I find absolutely nothing in Scripture that supports such a concept. Luke 16, the story of the rich man and Lazarus and also as another poster mentioned, Hebrews 9:27 both seem to be opposed to this concept.

Could you explain your belief from Scripture?

[kp_online]

I think Homebound means that there are miracles or events where there are people that happen to die but then are "brought back to life" so to speak through God's grace/mercy/healing. The part I have a hard part of understanding is the part where he says "or goes elsewhere".
Do you mean hell?

[victoryword]

I think Homebound means that there are miracles or events where there are people that happen to die but then are "brought back to life" so to speak through God's grace/mercy/healing. The part I have a hard part of understanding is the part where he says "or goes elsewhere".
Do you mean hell?

Hhhhhhmmmm. Perhaps a better word would be RESSURECTION vice REINCARNATION. Reincarnation implies someone's body dying and their spirit inhabits another body (another human, a fish, a goat, etc.). This is a prevalent teaching among New Agers, Hindus, and I think some sects of BUddhism.

Ressurection on the other hand is simply God doing what He did for Lazarus in John 11 and in other places in Scripture. Unfortunately, I still cannot find resurrection in this life to be a Biblical promise like divine healing, forgiveness, and other guaranteed blessings that are appropriated by faith. I do believe that if the church spent more time in prayer we would see more people being raised from the dead but I just have a hard time seeing it as one of those promises we could claim as a right. But again, I believe that a praying church would see more miracles of dead being raised in this era.

On the other hand, I suppose Matthew 10:1-2 and Luke 9 could be construed as Biblical promises that guarantee the raising of the dead. What do you guys think?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

If you can't have verses in the Bible that make that feeling strong all it is is a feeling not fact

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body being many, are one body: so also thee Christ

[Andrew]

...but I do believe Jesus experienced a seperation between Himself and the Father when He became sin for us

Yes that has been taught many times by my Pastor in church too (we are non-denom charismatic).

There was only one time Jesus referred to his Father as God, and that was at the cross, when his Father turned his back on his Son. Jesus cried out "My God my God, why has though forsaken me?" This is the only time Jesus called his Father God, SO THAT YOU AND I CAN CALL HIM ABBA FATHER today!!! This is one of the divine exchanges that took place at the cross!

Also, what caused Jesus so much suffering was not so much the physical toture and abuse, but becoming sin itself, AND being separated from his Father, losing that Father-Son relationship.

There is so much that Jesus died to give us, and we are only scratching the surface! Praise God!

[SpiritPsalmist]

If you can't have verses in the Bible that make that feeling strong all it is is a feeling not fact

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body being many, are one body: so also thee Christ

What feeling are you referring to Brethren?

[afnospam]

Sad to say but it's basic Christian doctrine along these lines:
1) Christ life, death, and resurrection are fact and are the basis for the Christian faith and are necessary of redemption
2) God has conveyed a basis of conduct
3) The Bible is true, accurate, and still timely presentation of God's communication and plan for mankind offering hope, love, and warning/punishment.
We have too many departing from ancient beliefs and creeds, forming their own gospel, and deceiving many. With many who are in mainline churches, it's difficult to see agreement on the above, especially with young people. My personal observation is that 1 Cornithins 2:10 is a missing link in all of it.

[Auntie]

"The little gods" and certain statements such as us being "equal to God" (Copeland once taught this) can be very easily misunderstood and cause unnecessary controversy.




I didn't realize that Charasmatic/Penticostal/Word of Faith Christians believed this. :confused: Is there a thread somewhere that explains this belief?

[afnospam]

Gospel.com has a good overview. See http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/w00.html

+

[B4Eddie]

How is healing difficult to explain?

as for the previous post, a man dies, is judged according to the life he's lead, and based on that judgement, he either stays with God, or goes back, or goes elsewhere.

I presume you are referring to those who were resurrected by Jesus, OT prophets, and the saints who were resurrected when Jesus died. Please clarify that you don't mean reincarnation in the same sense as Hinduism!

[B4Eddie]

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

[Andrew]

I didn't realize that Charasmatic/Penticostal/Word of Faith Christians believed this. :confused: Is there a thread somewhere that explains this belief?

I have written a simple article on this. If you care to read, its here:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/littlegods.html



:D

[Auntie]

I have written a simple article on this. If you care to read, its here:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/littlegods.html



:D


Thanks Andrew; I'm studying on it.:)

[hal weeks]

To site supporter:
I find the most difficult concept to get across to others that God has more for them. They cannot accept that they are in some way lacking. They usually give me a resume`of what they already have. I find they get very defensive.

[calisa]

people, Christians included, tend to be very skeptical of prophesying (God still using ppl today to relay messages).

[MsAnne]

Back to the original question-

For me personally, it has been the whole idea of spiritual warfare.
"We wrestle not against flesh and blood..."
It is a concept that is so foreign to some people that it's hard to explain in a simple conversation. It can sound soooo... Twilight Zone... to an unbeliever or even a Christian coming from a non-charasmatic background. Although, I have found most Christians to be open to hearing more about it.

[DMC_72]

I find it a bit troublesome that people lump groups together. For example, the question in this thread revolves around "Charismatic/word-faith/Pentecostal" beliefs.

My biggest problem, as a charismatic Christian, is the stereotyping. Not all charismatics are Pentecostal. Not all Charismatics are word-faith believers.

I have several different beliefs from what some have posted here. Yet when i find myself explaining my charismatic beliefs, I am bombarded with people asking about "word-faith" or Pentecostal beliefs. Many of which I don't adhere to, thus can't explain nor defend.

Too many people assume that a charismatic has to be a certain denomination and have certain beliefs.

I feel charismatic simply describes my beliefs in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps I am off base.

I am admittedly a newly found Christian going through some awesome transformations. But I have learned alot in a short period and I stick with the facts of what I can back up with scripture.

I guess I like the safety net of that aspect. If scripture supports it, I am open to learning. If scripture turns to mythology, I have reservations. If scipture gets quoted out of context, I simply don't listen.

I don't mean to offend anybody, like I said, I am learning.

[hal weeks]

I don't mean to offend anybody, like I said, I am learning.
I think you have given an excellent thesis on the topic.
You blessed me, Hal

[SpiritPsalmist]

I find it a bit troublesome that people lump groups together. For example, the question in this thread revolves around "Charismatic/word-faith/Pentecostal" beliefs.

My biggest problem, as a charismatic Christian, is the stereotyping. Not all charismatics are Pentecostal. Not all Charismatics are word-faith believers.

I have several different beliefs from what some have posted here. Yet when i find myself explaining my charismatic beliefs, I am bombarded with people asking about "word-faith" or Pentecostal beliefs. Many of which I don't adhere to, thus can't explain nor defend.

Too many people assume that a charismatic has to be a certain denomination and have certain beliefs.

I feel charismatic simply describes my beliefs in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps I am off base.

I am admittedly a newly found Christian going through some awesome transformations. But I have learned alot in a short period and I stick with the facts of what I can back up with scripture.

I guess I like the safety net of that aspect. If scripture supports it, I am open to learning. If scripture turns to mythology, I have reservations. If scipture gets quoted out of context, I simply don't listen.

I don't mean to offend anybody, like I said, I am learning.

Thanks for your thoughts DMC_72. Welcome to the forum and welcome to the Family :hug:

One of the reasons this particular forum was started was because when some of us tried to share with other people we would immediately be bombarded by those who dissagreed with what they had labeled as Charasmatic/WOF/Penticostal teachings.

I do not consider myself WOF, yet, through my own studying and communing with God I have appariantly some of the same thinking as the WOF. I personally, found it nearly impossible to have a good, adult conversation on the subjects without being called a false teacher/prophet, etc.

We should never accept a teaching because that's what another person we trust in tells us. As you said, we should always bring it along side the word of God and then after weighing all the scripture come to a conclusion.

I attend a church that is on the "wild side". They are too wild to be considered Charasmatic, but they don't have the "legalisim" that a lot of the Penticostals are known for and while they also have WOF ideas too, they don't fully embrace that either. Like you, I don't really fit any of those labels. . .and we should'nt.

Jesus has made each of us unique and He is molding each of us into His image. If we look deep enough we will see something of Jesus in each person we come in contact with. . . even those who don't yet serve Him. . .they are just not in Redeemed mode yet. :)

I believe context is important, however, it also needs to be mixed with other scriputures that deal with the same issue. Get all the scriptures together and then decide what God is saying. There has been many a time when I find myself discussing a subject with God and His Word. I say to God, "well it says here" and then He answers, "and it says there". We go back and forth till' it seemes like "suddenly" (I like suddenlys") that understanding come's and the understanding I receive emcompasses all of the scriptures. . .not just one or two.

[SnuP]

I think the hardest thing for people to understand is what true trust in God is and why we should expect miracles and wonders from God. That and why God allows pain to exist.

God doesn't allow pain to exist. He allows freewill to exist.

The hardest thing for me to express it the depth of what I am refering to when I say 'relationship'. Most christians would argue that they have a good relationship with God, even though they are really bearly acquantances, they have never heard God speak to them, and the last intimate moment that they had was salvation (with the exceptance of those power moments of emotion were they think that something happening in nature is God, the birds singing or the trees swaying).:help:

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

people, Christians included, tend to be very skeptical of prophesying (God still using ppl today to relay messages).


have you ever read luke 16:16

[Andrew]

people, Christians included, tend to be very skeptical of prophesying (God still using ppl today to relay messages).

He certainly does, AMEN!

[hobart schmedly]

As a Charasmatic/Penticostal/Word of Faith Christian, what belief(s) do you hold to that seems to be the most difficult for you to convey to other Christians, either personally and/or on the forums, who do not believe the same way?

The most difficult thing to convey is that God is Good and His mercy endures forever.
The definitions of good, mercy, and forever seem to get twisted by theology.
Good is what is obviously good. Sickness, death, and poverty are not good. What is good for us is good for God. He is good. He does not use evil methods to accomplish good ends. His concept of what is good is far and above better than any definition that we could give it.... not worse.
God is merciful. His mercy overreaches justice. Mercy is what caused Jesus to die for us. Mercy is over and above mere justice. Justice demands that we be saved from all the evil things that Jesus suffered for. Mercy goes above and beyond mere justice. Yet some still insist that we suffer the same things. We are more than saved. We are more than delivered. Mercy adds to the 100% salvation that justice provided in the cross. Mercy overwhelms the believer with more than enough. Yet I am baffled by the insistance that God has not saved us from sickness, poverty, and sin. We are saved to the uttermost. All things have been given to us. All things are ours. Yet some insist on doing without, and attributing their lack to some manifestion of God's will. Oh that the people of God would see their saviour and praise Him for the savlation that He has provided! There are no holes! No cracks to fall through!
The goodness and Mercy of God reach into the realm of forever. There is no room for anything other than goodness an mercy. One single instant of badness or unmercifulness would destroy the concept of "forever".

[didaskalos]

people, Christians included, tend to be very skeptical of prophesying (God still using ppl today to relay messages).

I think this is mainly due to a lack of knowledge concerning what NT prophesying is and what it is intending for. Everyone should prophesy. Everyone can. Not the spiritual gift, but prophesying from the spirit of Christ in us. This is given to comfort, edify, and exhort. Not predict, command, or comdemn.
It is the misuse of prophesying that has turned people off to it. We all have heard prophesying that commanded people to do things or comdemned them for one thing or another. This is not what NT prophesying is for. Go to:
http://www.bereanonline.com
for lessons on how to prophesy comfort, edification, and exhortation to your brothers.

[SpiritPsalmist]

It's about time you showed up Mr didaskalos http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/upsidedown2.gif

[didaskalos]

It's about time you showed up Mr didaskalos http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/upsidedown2.gif

Didy hangs his head in shame... :sorry:

[SpiritPsalmist]

http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/icon_super.gif Get that head back up. . .it's good to see you.

Group hug for didy http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/icon_grouphug.gif

[wldbill]

Most difficult for me. Trying to explain old covenant/new covenant! Questions along the line of "why is your God such a vicious murder..OT battles was something I studied much on, and no matter how I answer I still get a so why is God a killer:(

[SpiritPsalmist]

Most difficult for me. Trying to explain old covenant/new covenant! Questions along the line of "why is your God such a vicious murder..OT battles was something I studied much on, and no matter how I answer I still get a so why is God a killer:(
Ya, that's a tough one too.

[didaskalos]

Most difficult for me. Trying to explain old covenant/new covenant! Questions along the line of "why is your God such a vicious murder..OT battles was something I studied much on, and no matter how I answer I still get a so why is God a killer:(It is not so difficult when you remember that the OT is just types and shadows of the real. The real is Jesus. You do not see Jesus doing those sorts of things. Jesus is the exact image of the Father... If you want to see the Father, what His will is, and what He is really like: Look at Jesus!

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

[Follower of Christ too]

It is not so difficult when you remember that the OT is just types and shadows of the real. The real is Jesus. You do not see Jesus doing those sorts of things. Jesus is the exact image of the Father... If you want to see the Father, what His will is, and what He is really like: Look at Jesus!

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. This is exactly what I try to convey. I even mentioned the types and shadows. When I attempt to tell them about the love of Jesus I get "So are there two Gods one mean and one nice(something along those lines). Sometimes I feel like getting off that thread but then a question is asked that is so clear to me and I answer. I just can't help it! It is so important for people to understand we serve a God of love.

[hal]

Over a period of twenty-five years of teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit, I have had the most difficulty conveying the concept of spiritual growth. For me to suggest that God has more for them is inferred to say that they have less. They become defensive and give me a litany of all the things they are doing. I have learned not to try to teach to a closed mind.

[Mark W]

The God of the old testament is the same as Christ. (Of course, this has already been pointed out.) What most people ignore in the OT (besides the types and shadows) is the time frame. God is very, very patient with people. For instance, according to Jude, Enoch was a prophet. God told him that the flood was coming and he named his son Methusela, which means "when he dies, it will come". God saw to it that Methusela lived longer than any man would live. He waited almost a 1000 years to bring judgement. Name me one man that would wait so long to bring judgement to violent people!

As for the people in Canaan, God told Abraham "your offspring will be slaves in Egypt for 400 years because the iniquity of the canaanites has not yet reached it's full measure".


He let his children suffer for 400 years waiting on the amorites to repent. If you read closely, God provided a way out for those that did repent (i.e. Rahab). Even whole tribes were spared because of the way they treated Israel.


God was very patient with the world but all the world chooses to see is how God finally deals with them. They are willingly ignorant of the grace and mercy of our God. Is it any wonder that when his wrath falls, it falls hard! For their sin is a sin against mercy. A sin against a Father that forsook his son for their sakes. Yet, they after 400 years, or 1000 years refuse to acknowledge his sacrifice for them and in righteous judgement, God removes them from the earth. All the while stating

"God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked".


Blessings,

Mark