The Temple [open]

[Athaliamum]

Sort of a split from the western wall thread. I would like to pose some questions for discussion. I have more discussion questions I would ask as we go along.:thumbsup:


What is the purpose/meaning of the tabernacle/temple (past/future) to you?

What do you think are the significant differences and similarities between the Temples of the OT and the NT?

Temple destruction dates, are they important?

Do you believe the capture of the second temple and desecration by Antiochus was a shadow of things to come or the fulfillment of prophehcy itself?

Thoughts on the theory that Bar Kokhba built a temple on the temple mount after the destruction of the second temple.

[Desperate4Him2]

Oooo, so much to chew on - so little time! :D

Stream of consciousness on the Temple:

I believe that Messiah will occupy and rule from the Third Temple.

I believe that YHVH never "set foot" in the Second Temple. I don't believe that it was built on the correct spot on the Temple Mount. Don't know why I believe this and am willing to be educated by those who know. :)

I believe that the Temple was destroyed in 70AD which was 40 years after the death of Messiah in 30 AD - 40 typically is a time of testing/trial/maturing.

Not sure on the last two! :scratch: I'm looking forward to other's answers. :)

[debi b]

What does the Temple mean to me?

I am not sure there is enough time to answer that.....

One thing I am increasingly convinced of is the Temple was established by Hashem and is pleasing to Him. It is our window into His ways. It communicates His perspective and we have so much to learn. We have undervalued what Hashem values and this is a tradgedy.

The disciples did not see a conflict with following Yeshua and the Temple (something that has caused many in days after much confusion).

Acts 2:46
So continuing DAILY with one accord in the Temple....

[HaNotsri]

Do you believe the capture of the second temple and desecration by Antiochus was a shadow of things to come or the fulfillment of prophehcy itself?

I believe the "abomination of desolation" has already occurred and most of the New Testament prophecies (including Revelation) has already occurred and was fulfilled in 70AD. That would be the partial-preterist view. Where I differ from traditional reformed theologians is I believe that Israel has a glorious future and will be restored to her former glory with a Temple and their Messiah in the land God promised them.


Thoughts on the theory that Bar Kokhba built a temple on the temple mount after the destruction of the second temple.

"Theory?" He didn't get the Temple rebuilt, he only controlled Jerusalem for two and a half years. However, they did re-establish the qorbanos for a time, though I do not believe in the validity of their sacrifice (neither did G-d apparently).

[visionary]

Temple on earth is a copy of the true in heaven. I am sure that it is a poor copy but is great for illustration.

Temple is also an illustration of the step by step process the mind must go through in order to cleanse sin. Yeshua must enter and clean out the money changers first and turn the temple into a house of prayer. Then there will come a day when yom kippur will occur in the mind, and the temple will be cleansed. I believe that there is a simultaneous work with Satan as the scapegoat before the world (before the congregation) while Yeshua makes the very final atonement before His Father in the Heavenly sanctuary. When that is over, there is no more atonement for sin. I would not be surprised if Satan is in the earthly remake as "God on Earth".

[Athaliamum]

"Theory?" He didn't get the Temple rebuilt, he only controlled Jerusalem for two and a half years. However, they did re-establish the qorbanos for a time, though I do not believe in the validity of their sacrifice (neither did G-d apparently).

Yes, theory. There is enough historical material to make suggestion of such a theory, I was wondering what people might think of it.

Some examples of such evidence:

1. According to the nineteenth-century Lithuanian rabbi, Samuel Shtrashun (R'shash), who claimed his source was the Roman historian Dio Casius, Bar Kokhba rebuilt the Temple and resumed the sacrificial system.

2. Rabbi Rexnick, a published author, suggests that Hadrians actions towards the Jewish Temple would be better understood given the existence of the Bar Kokhba Temple. For example, the Midrash states, "When Hadrian enter the Holy of Holies, he showed great arrogance and blasphemed God" (Exodus Rabbah 51:5) Since the Temple had been destroyed 60 years earlier, what temple is this passage talking about?

3. This along with other sources such as Chronicum Paschale, the Byzantine historian who wrote History of the Jews wrote, "Hadrian tore down the Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem and built two public baths, a theatre, and the Temple of Jupiter." Hadrian could not have torn down a temple that didn't exisit.

4. Also there is a statement in the 4th century Fragment of a Letter to a Priest written by Roman Emporor Julian "...what have they (the Jews) to say about their own temple, which was overthrown three times and even now is not being raised up again?..."

5. Also there have been found coins in digs that bare the name of Bar Kokhba with the image of the Holy Temple inscripted on them.

So evidence enough for a theory or to at least ask questions. Thoughts...

[Athaliamum]

To answer some of my own questions in the hope to spark some discussion:

IMPO

What is the purpose/meaning of the tabernacle/temple (past/future) to you?

I do believe that the earthly Temple is a reflection of the Temple of Heaven. I believe the first earthly reflection to have been the Garden of Eden. I also believe that there will be at least one more earthly temple.

I believe it is necessary in the unification of Israel because they must work together for the purpose of glorifying God in order to rebuild it. It would also take a heart-felt commitment because it will most likely start strife to do so because of the political situation with the Arabs. The importance of the Temple is not about the building itself so much, but then it never was. It's about focus on God and to this day the disporia still turn to Jerasulem to pray and those there turn to the temple mount.

I think Sholomo said it best - "But can God actually live on earth? Why, heaven itself, even the heavens of heavens, cannot contain you; so how much less this ouse I have built? Even so, Adonai my God, pay attention to our sevants's prayer and plea, listen to the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying before you today, that your eyes will be open toward this house night and day - toward the place concerning which you said, 'My name will be there' - to listen to the prayer your servant will pray toward this place. Yes, listen to the plea of your servant, and also that of your people Israel when they prayer toward this place. Hear in heaven where you live; and when you hear, forgive!"

[Desperate4Him2]

Nice thread, Athaliamum. It's stretching my intellect which is a good thing!

I had never heard about the Second and a half Temple of Bar Kokhba. It does clarify other writing. Hmmm!

But realistically, would Rome have permitted another temple to be built when they had just (50 or so years before) torn down Herod's temple? Maybe it was a tabernacle?

[Athaliamum]

But realistically, would Rome have permitted another temple to be built when they had just (50 or so years before) torn down Herod's temple? Maybe it was a tabernacle?

Possibly. I'm still pondering the evidence. There are drawings of the Temple of Jupiter that look like the structure of a jewish temple that has been converted, but it could have simply been made by non-religious Jews etc. who did what they knew. I don't think it makes a huge impact on the history of the temple mount, I don't believe it was a temple that held the pressence of God. I do think that it would be interesting if it is ture though, a proof that the Temple is only worth something if it is God's will and God's direction in its building. It is clear from the bible that the people of Israel often attributed power to the tools of God, like the Temple and the Ark of the Covenant, rather then God himself. It seems to be a very human condition as I can see this same direct correlation between some christians and the cross.

[Tishri1]

I Know a man who is working closely with the Sanhedren and the Temple Institute on the project to rebuild the Temple.....here is a Favorite verse that is full of meaningEzekiel 43:1-11 NAS Ezekiel 43:1 Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east; 2 and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when He came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate facing toward the east. 5 And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. 6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die, 8 by setting their threshold by My threshold, and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger. 9 "Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever. 10 "As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan. 11 "And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes, and do them. you may not know this but this information has been coming in pieces over the last decade or so only, before then no one knew exactly how the Temple should be built to the very cubit, but now it is all coming together and the information is coming in at an excelerated pace as well, and by the leading of the Holy Spirit as well.:clap:....ABBA is not silent on the issue of His House and He will be moving on the hearts of good men to build it when the time is ripe to do so......I am sooooooo excited I get to see it coming together from "behind the scenes" so to speak:)

PS I have heared it said... Why study about the Temple? What good is that to me now? and the answer was ...95% of the Bible is Temple related,"Temple talk" if you will.....

Sounds pretty important to me;)

[HaNotsri]

The Temple Institute believe it's incumbent to build a Miqdash to the specifications of the second Temple knowing very well that the Temple of Ezekiel's vision cannot be built by man. The very topography of Jerusalem shall change when it is erected.

[Tishri1]

The Temple Institute believe it's incumbent to build a Miqdash to the specifications of the second Temple knowing very well that the Temple of Ezekiel's vision cannot be built by man. The very topography of Jerusalem shall change when it is erected.Yes this man I know has been working with them for over Ten Years and is right in the thick of things, Him and Rabbi Richman have seen soooo many things come about that could only be ABBA's power and guidence in this project as well.....It's all compiled in a book that they are translating into Hebrew for the Sanhedren and after that maybe it will be available to the public as well.....

[Henaynei]

What is the purpose/meaning of the tabernacle/temple (past/future) to you?

past present and future - the place where G-d has chosen to set His Name - the center of His Universe

future - the fulfilment of prophesy necessary before HaShem returns; necessary for the scriptural reinstatement of the sacrifices

What do you think are the significant differences and similarities between the Temples of the OT and the NT?

with a clear understanding of what G-d intended both to be, nothing different is necessary - it was and will be as G-d ordains

Temple destruction dates, are they important?

to me they are

Do you believe the capture of the second temple and desecration by Antiochus was a shadow of things to come or the fulfillment of prophecy itself?

shadow, not fulfillment

Thoughts on the theory that Bar Kokhba built a temple on the temple mount after the destruction of the second temple.

had not previously heard of that, but even with today's engineering and technology it would take more than 2 years to rebuild the Temple

[ILE]

Hello Friends,

I have been reading some of the comments by your group, messianic judaism. Though I myself am not a member and know very little about you, but what I have read from your notes posted, is that you do have an understanding of God's Plan or rather are more accurate one than the other denominations of christianity, which are false religion in themselves.

In relation to this statement posted, I like very much talking about this topic, which not many people understand, about the temple and how it fits in with things in the future.

[Tishri1]

Just a friendly reminder that this is one of those congregational areas where you must have a MJ Torah scroll to post a teaching or debating post, everyone else is welcome to post questions, fellowship and very brief personal comments and thats all....sorry bout that ....But if you have more to say and do not hold the MJ Icon please open a thread in General Theology and post a link here so we can join you over there for more in depth discussion

Thanks for your co operation everyone:wave:

Tishri1
Ecumenical Staff
MJ Moderators

[Athaliamum]

New Temple discussion questions:

Thoughts on Moshe Dayan returning the temple mount after it was captured in the six-day war to the muslims.

How does the different sects of Judaism (Hasidic, Orthodox, conservative and reform) effected the rebuilding of the temple?

Do you think Israel's previous pattern supported by the Talmud of 1)Appoint a king, 2)eradicate the descendants of Amalek, 3) build the temple; must be performed in their order?

How has pervious generations of Christian's and replacement theology effected the understanding and re-establishment of the temple mount?

[Henaynei]

Thoughts on Moshe Dayan returning the temple mount after it was captured in the six-day war to the muslims.

symptomatic of the overall self-effacing paranoid guilt that is endemic within modern non-religious Judaism

the single greatest error Israel has made before the abandonment and rejection of the "settlements"

How does the different sects of Judaism (Hasidic, Orthodox, conservative and reform) effected the rebuilding of the temple?

Hasidic - reject even the creation of Israel by any other than Messiah

Orthodox - generally support Israel and the building of the Temple - are the people behind the efforts behind the Temple Institute

Do you think Israel's previous pattern supported by the Talmud of 1)Appoint a king, 2)eradicate the descendants of Amalek, 3) build the temple; must be performed in their order?

It has never happened exactly the way G-d ordained in the past, why should it happen the way Talmud ordained now? It is very likely that these "requirements" will be quantified and re-explained to "fit today," i.e. king = president or PM, eradication = peace with or neutralization of Palestinians, etc...

How have previous generations of Christian's and replacement theology effected the understanding and re-establishment of the temple mount?

Replacement theology is still endemic in Christianity - even among those who support Israel. The lack of orthodox Christians, the historic tendency in Christianity to spiritualize and claim the promises to and prophesies about Israel and the secularization of Christian views will all have a damping effect on the strong and eventually effective efforts to rebuild the House of G-d.

[ChavaK]

How does the different sects of Judaism (Hasidic, Orthodox, conservative and reform) effected the rebuilding of the temple?

Hasidic - reject even the creation of Israel by any other than Messiah


This needs to be clarified....the Lubavitchers are
very, very supportive of Israel, while the Satmars
are against the modern state of Israel, although
they revere the land. Other Chassidic sects
fall somewhere inbetween these two beliefs...

:wave:
Chava

[Henaynei]

This needs to be clarified....the Lubavitchers are
very, very supportive of Israel, while the Satmars
are against the modern state of Israel, although
they revere the land. Other Chassidic sects
fall somewhere inbetween these two beliefs...

:wave:
Chavathank you ma'am!:thumbsup:

[visionary]

Well... that was a nice run down the rabbit's trail. I would like to bring some thoughts back to the Temple and its future before Yeshua's return.

Some speculate that it will occur before He returns and that it is part of prophecy. Which I am of this camp. If this is so, it stands to reason that thought it may be with earnest hearts that the building was built, but by convenant with evil men it is lost when completed so that the trailor of all traitors can show himself to be God and deserving to sit on the throne of God within.

Are there any other speculations?

[debi b]

Has anyone noticed that when there is no Temple there are only burnt offerings and peace offerings? It is only when the Temple is up that there are sin offerings ;)

[Tishri1]

Has anyone noticed that when there is no Temple there are only burnt offerings and peace offerings? It is only when the Temple is up that there are sin offerings ;)In fact from what I know (limited as it is) there are no temple offerings allowed outside the Temple in Jerusalem.

ON the other hand....At this time our bodies(hearts) brought into submission to Him daily, (as in the continual "Tamid"offering) are what we bring, thats pleasing to ABBA now ...Romans 12:1 NAS Romans 12:1 I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. :wave:

[debi b]

What I was referring to was Biblically. This jumps out when you look at the order of things in Ezra/Nehemiah time frame. When they started putting things in order, the put up an alter first (before they started working on the Temple). The began doing burnt offerings and peace offerings - but no chatat (translated as "sin") offerings. It is only when the Temple is in place that chatat offerings begin again.

If you take a closer look this pattern holds throughout scripture :) Kinda should make us think....

[Tishri1]

Hey folks, I just found out that Masonry discussions were against CF rule in this area...(not something we ever needed to know before I guess) so I'm gonna pull those away from this Temple series and start a thread in here

http://www.christianforums.com/t4667065&page=2

... if you still want to jump in it will be there OK? PM me if you have any questions,
Tish

[Athaliamum]

It's amazing how threads can run away when one is abscent for a week. I've missed a lot it would seem.

What are peoples thoughts on the Ark of the Covenant and it's relation to the temple? Do you think it is a prerequisite for the third temple?

[Henaynei]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think so.... or a least I think those who will build the Temple believe so...