Messianic Jew (OPEN)

[Snowy]

Can a Christian that has no Jewish heritage become a Messianic?

If so what practices would I follow and where would I start?

[Desperate4Him2]

I hope so, Snowy. To my fairly uncertain knowledge, I have no Jewish blood. Except spiritual, perhaps! :)

When I became aware of Messianic beliefs, I began praying about what I should observe in my life. Holy Spirit began with what I ate (now no pig, shrimp, crab - my special favs!). Last spring I began celebrating Erev Shabbat by lighting candles and reserving Shabbat for the things of YHVH instead of the things of D4H2. I read the parasha every week and attend a parasha study group. I'm looking for a group to worship with. It's been a process - about 1-1/2 years and I'm just now beginning to celebrate the feasts and festivals.

Is there a congregation or study group near you?

[AbiYah]

Absolutely anyone can become Messianic.

To become Jewish though; you either are born; or you convert.

The only people doing conversions are the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaisms - not Messianic Judaism.

If you already have faith in Y'shua; you need only then obey His commandments. :)

No need to change ethnicity; G-d says even those of the nations who obey His voice and commands is blessed.

"Many are called but few are the chosen"

[Snowy]

When I became aware of Messianic beliefs, I began praying about what I should observe in my life. Holy Spirit began with what I ate (now no pig, shrimp, crab - my special favs!).

The next day as Cornelius’s messengers were nearing the town, Peter went up on the flat roof to pray. It was about noon, and he was hungry. But while a meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the sky open, and something like a large sheet was let down by its four corners. In the sheet were all sorts of animals, reptiles, and birds. Then a voice said to him, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat them." “No, Lord,” Peter declared. “I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean." But the voice spoke again: “Do not call something unclean if G-d has made it clean.” Acts 10:9-15

Do not destroy the work of G-d for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. Romans 14:20

G-d says all food is clean so why do you worry about what you eat unless it causes someone else to stumble which I really don't understand how it could. If G-d said something is ok to eat then doesn't that make it ok as what happened in Acts?


Last spring I began celebrating Erev Shabbat by lighting candles and reserving Shabbat for the things of YHVH instead of the things of D4H2. I read the parasha every week and attend a parasha study group. I'm looking for a group to worship with. It's been a process - about 1-1/2 years and I'm just now beginning to celebrate the feasts and festivals.


What is D4H2?

Is there a congregation or study group near you?

I really have no clue if there is a Messianic Jew group near me.

[Snowy]

Absolutely anyone can become Messianic.

To become Jewish though; you either are born; or you convert.

The only people doing conversions are the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaisms - not Messianic Judaism.

If you already have faith in Y'shua; you need only then obey His commandments. :)

No need to change ethnicity; G-d says even those of the nations who obey His voice and commands is blessed.

"Many are called but few are the chosen"

What exactly is Messianic?

What are the customs and traditions that should be followed?

Do Messianic believe we live in the NT days?

Why do I feel so drawn (interested) to Jewish customs and beliefs?

[Desperate4Him2]

The next day as Cornelius’s messengers were nearing the town, Peter went up on the flat roof to pray. It was about noon, and he was hungry. But while a meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the sky open, and something like a large sheet was let down by its four corners. In the sheet were all sorts of animals, reptiles, and birds. Then a voice said to him, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat them." “No, Lord,” Peter declared. “I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean." But the voice spoke again: “Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean.” Acts 10:9-15

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. Romans 14:20

God says all food is clean so why do you worry about what you eat unless it causes someone else to stumble which I really don't understand how it could. If God said something is ok to eat then doesn't that make it ok as what happened in Acts?





What is D4H2?



I really have no clue if there is a Messianic Jew group near me.
D4H2 is my CF id! :D

Snowy, Peter explained his vision later as being permitted to enter gentile's homes and even eat with them which was not permitted by the rabbinical fence around Torah. Peter did not say that it had anything to do with food (well, except for eating with gentiles).

I was a long time coming to the conclusion that YHVH blesses those who keep biblically kosher. Right now, if I ate pork or shrimp or crab (which all still make my mouth water), I would be in the bathroom looking for the Immodium AD within several hours. It took a while for me to make the connection with eating a BLT, but once I knew that it was not in my best interests, the Holy Spirit hounded me until I gave it up. Currently, I eat the occasional piece of bacon but I'm guaranteed to have problems later in the day! Just my experience, Snowy. Nothing more. :)

[Desperate4Him2]

What exactly is Messianic?

What are the customs and traditions that should be followed?

Do Messianic believe we live in the NT days?

Why do I feel so drawn (interested) to Jewish customs and beliefs?
You are drawn the way the rest of us have been drawn. Haven't a clue why, but it's a sure thing that once the idea of a Jewish Jesus enters your mind, He'll not let you alone until you capitulate! :D You will be so blessed!

There are several wonderful books about Messianic beliefs from First Fruits of Zion at this site: http://ffoz.org/

[AbiYah]

What exactly is Messianic?
This will have a different answer to every person you ask. It is just the same as asking me "What defines Judaism?" or "What defines Jewish Music?"
There are so many flavors and styles; there is no one definitive. There are even Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrachi Messianics... those who are Arabs worshipping as Messianic; and people all over the world regardless of being Jewish or not that are Messianic.
The whole goal is to Obey and worship G-d out of our love of Him. But that will manifest in many ways and forms as we area all coming on the path from different backgrounds and have our own baggage that we carry.

What are the customs and traditions that should be followed?
I would start by asking you to look at our FAQ, and also trying to look at www.biblicalholidays.com (http://www.biblicalholidays.com) that is a good place to begin.

Do Messianic believe we live in the NT days?
I am not sure what you mean; but with further clarification I am sure I can answer better.

Why do I feel so drawn (interested) to Jewish customs and beliefs?
Because you believe in Y'shua and our faith was divorced from it's roots. It's time that the harvest is drawing near; and G-d is calling us steadily back to his flock and his root.

He is the shepherd, those who are his sheep hear his voice. I am sure everyone if they listen long and hard enough will hear the call.

[Snowy]

D4H2 is my CF id! :D


:doh::doh::doh:

Snowy, Peter explained his vision later as being permitted to enter gentile's homes and even eat with them which was not permitted by the rabbinical fence around Torah. Peter did not say that it had anything to do with food (well, except for eating with gentiles).

I was a long time coming to the conclusion that YHVH blesses those who keep biblically kosher. Right now, if I ate pork or shrimp or crab (which all still make my mouth water), I would be in the bathroom looking for the Immodium AD within several hours. It took a while for me to make the connection with eating a BLT, but once I knew that it was not in my best interests, the Holy Spirit hounded me until I gave it up. Currently, I eat the occasional piece of bacon but I'm guaranteed to have problems later in the day! Just my experience, Snowy. Nothing more. :)


OK so your saying nothing from a pig, or certain seafood. What about chickens and cows?

[Athaliamum]

Can a Christian that has no Jewish heritage become a Messianic Jew?

If so what practices would I follow and where would I start?

The others have answered the first part quite well, there are no pre-requisites to becoming messianic.

But where to start....
Baby steps. I would start by gaining a indepth knowledge of the Torah and it's precepts. It is easy to do when we know the why. It also means that you are less likely to get confused over rabbinical practices vs Torah only practices because you have the measuring stick to weigh and judge.
A really good resources to do this is this website:
http://www.maretsoftware.com/torahtips/account/login.asp
It will take you through some basic foundations, then the 613 commandments and explain their past applications, who they relate to, the spirit behind the commandment and whether it is still to be done and how you could do that. Apart from his segment and interpretation on Tellifin, I would say that he is pretty spot on.

I would also suggest possibly getting the Complete Jewish Bible or the Jewish New Testament by David Stern if you don't already have one. It changes alot of the names of people and places back to the Hebrew to help give context. eg. Law=Torah, Jesus=Yeshua, Lord=Adonai etc.

I hope that helps.:wave:

[AbiYah]

the passage here is about something other than food. The "kill and eat" is "Sacrifice and eat" - there is a big problem sacrificing things that G-d didn't ask to be sacrificed; and eating what is not food per G-d.

Healthwise and covenantwise.

The passage is about mankind and how mankind is perceived.

I think Athaliamum posted somewhere on here recently about the passage where mankind is likened to some of these animals mentioned in the "sheet" - it was very good. Maybe she will come along and link this soon. :)

[Snowy]

I am not sure what you mean; but with further clarification I am sure I can answer better.

Sorry NT means New Testament. I understand the Jews only use the NT because they don't believe in Jesus being the son of G-d because they think he still hasn't came yet. So, what I was wanting to know was do Messianic use both the OT and NT but believe that these days are the NT days and the laws of the OT have been written over so to speak by the NT?




Because you believe in Y'shua and our faith was divorced from it's roots. It's time that the harvest is drawing near; and G-d is calling us steadily back to his flock and his root.

He is the shepherd, those who are his sheep hear his voice. I am sure everyone if they listen long and hard enough will hear the call.

What do you mean faith was divorced from it's roots?

[AbiYah]

here is what is food Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14.

These are the same clean and unclean at Noah's ark... the same clean and unclean after Paul. ;)

A good book is put out by Firstfruits of Zion (www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org)) called "Holy Cow" - check it out :)

[Desperate4Him2]

:doh::doh::doh:




OK so your saying nothing from a pig, or certain seafood. What about chickens and cows?
Chicken and cows and turkey are good! There are other requirements, but that's for another day.

We should make it clear that you are saved by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus/Yeshua, not by molding your life to the Torah. But Yeshua said "if you love me, you will follow my commandments". So now it's clear to me that after I was saved (not that long ago - not yet 6 years) that Abba Father has more for me than what the Christian Church offers. Blessings abound the more I conform my mind and body to the Torah!

I'm currently using The Scriptures for my Bible translation and it makes everything so clear!

[Athaliamum]

Cow and Chicken meat are fine as long as they are killed properly, which often they are not.

They shoot a metal prong into the cow's brain to stun it so that they can cut it's throat, but many times then not this prong kills them, meaning that they blood is not drained fromt the cow. This is not only a Torah observant issue but it should be a christian issue in connection with Acts 15:29 which says we should abstain from blood, that would include eating it. Chicken is normally ok as most of the blood is drained.

Even if it was permissable to eat pig, I wouldn't knowing how they kill them - they basically boil them alive to get the skin off because it's too hard to do once they're dead.

Oh link...just be easier to post it again:

Lets just look at one reference used to explain it's context. The issue with the above verses is that they are written in English which for the most part is a very limiting language. It is best to look at the greek to gain a better understanding of the implication of the verses. In Acts 10:9-5 this is very important.

Acts 10:11
"And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners...

A vessel is a container. Throughout the NT, this word is often used as a reference for the human body as a container for the soul.

Peter says that the vessel was like a great sheet knit at the four corners. Greek for clarification:

mega (large) othonai (linen garment) deo (tied) at the four corners

This is very specific, is not just some giant sheet like a bed sheet - it's particular. The reference to the tied four corners is an important particular that is often missed in the quest to uncontextually prove that all food is ok by God to eat. The particular is this:

Numbers 15:38-39
Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue....

The Israelites created a specific garment in order to fulfill this command - a tallit, a prayer shawl worn by men that has fringes at the corners that are tied in specific ways during prayer.

vs12"Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. "

This verse has been seen before it pervious scripture which gives this one it's context.

“Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith YHVH, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know YHVH.”Hosea 2:16-20

These passages of Hosea are talking about the tribe of Ephraim who have been dispersed into the many nations of the world because of their idolitary, basically being made into gentiles. These people, gentiles, here have been called beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things.


Romans 1:19-25 re-establishes this understanding:
“Because that which may be known of Adonai is manifest in them; for Adonai hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew Adonai, they glorified him not as Adonai, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible Adonai into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore Adonai also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of Adonai into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

Thus, scripture connects these animals with people who are idolaters. Therefore Peter's vision is of idoliters dressed in a tallit (prayer shawl).

“And [Peter] saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.”
Acts 10:11-13

The word kill here is another bad english translation. The Greek word that is interpreted as kill in the King James is thusia. That word appears repeatedly translated in the Nazarean Codicil as sacrifice or offering.

Therefore a better translation would be:
"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; sacrifice, and eat.”

It is at this point that he is told to sacrifice and eat. There is only one sacrifice in the scriptures wherein an individual (who was not a priest) was allowed to both sacrifice and eat of the meat from that sacrifice. That sacrifice is called the Zevach Shelamim.

The Zevach Shelamim is also called the Peace Offering or the Fellowship Offering. It was intended to be sacrificed and eaten by the individual who offered it and by others from the believing community. It could not be shared, however, with those who were either unclean or outside of the believing community. In such a case where the Zevach Shelamim was indeed shared with banned individuals, the offering became unclean meat.
This is when Peter objects to eating food that is unclean, in this context, it is not a reversal of God's own kosher mandate.

To put it in further context. Peter is still trying to understand his vision (which kosher-abliterating Christians think they understand straight away without much analysis) when gentiles who are God-fearers (basically in those days Torah observant Gentiles) come to the door. Context.

Later on Peter gives us the meaning of his vision.

“…Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but Adonai hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”
Acts 10:28


There is also a connection between clean and unclean animals and the order of their creation.

[Snowy]

And I have to apologize that I keep forgetting to hyphenate G-d's name. I had asked a few months ago why you all did this and am still getting used to it.

[Snowy]

Cow and Chicken meat are fine as long as they are killed properly, which often they are not.

They shoot a metal prong into the cow's brain to stun it so that they can cut it's throat, but many times then not this prong kills them, meaning that they blood is not drained fromt the cow. This is not only a Torah observant issue but it should be a christian issue in connection with Acts 15:29 which says we should abstain from blood, that would include eating it. Chicken is normally ok as most of the blood is drained.

So where would I go to get food that is kosher?

[AbiYah]

Sorry NT means New Testament. I understand the Jews only use the NT because they don't believe in Jesus being the son of G-d because they think he still hasn't came yet. So, what I was wanting to know was do Messianic use both the OT and NT but believe that these days are the NT days and the laws of the OT have been written over so to speak by the NT?


OK, We are not like the Christians who believe the New covenant replaced the Tanakh or it's observances.

There is a timeframe where the sacrifices are made of our lips, and our lives; but the time is coming where again there is a Temple and sacrifice. There was always grace and salvation; but it was not realized until the death and resurrection of the Messiah.

As our ancestors looked forwards; we look back and forward. Back to our spiritual redemption and forwards to the redemption and rejouvenation of the world.

By divorced from it's roots... I would say read up on Church History.

People decided things were "Too Jewish" and removed themselves from the context of worship and made something different.

[AbiYah]

So where would I go to get food that is kosher?
Sometimes your Walmart or a Publix store will have it; sometimes you have to order online or go to a specific store to get it.

Where I will be; I have a special store I have to go to.

[Snowy]

I read the parasha every week and attend a parasha study group. I'm looking for a group to worship with. It's been a process - about 1-1/2 years and I'm just now beginning to celebrate the feasts and festivals.

What is the parasha?

[AbiYah]

What is the parasha?
Weekly portion of the Torah divided into seven sections corresponding to each day of the week.
www.judaism.com/glossary/gloss1.asp (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.judaism.com/glossary/gloss1.asp&usg=__VWbfY1eO4ZTB-dAk5peZIR0jl48=)
A Parsha or Parshah, פרשה, meaning "Portion", is the weekly Torah portion in Hebrew. The plural is Parshiot. It is also known as the Parshat HaShavuah ("Weekly Portion") or the Sidra.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsha (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsha&usg=__hb4pGkKaN0GCioXrH1FnV5NQ0cg=)

[Snowy]

OK, We are not like the Christians who believe the New covenant replaced the Tanakh or it's observances.

There is a timeframe where the sacrifices are made of our lips, and our lives; but the time is coming where again there is a Temple and sacrifice. There was always grace and salvation; but it was not realized until the death and resurrection of the Messiah.

As our ancestors looked forwards; we look back and forward. Back to our spiritual redemption and forwards to the redemption and rejouvenation of the world.

By divorced from it's roots... I would say read up on Church History.

People decided things were "Too Jewish" and removed themselves from the context of worship and made something different.

So, you saying that Christians have forgetton the law of the OT and determined they are not worthy because we have the NT now? And in doing so we have lost part of our own heritage?

I have read the first 3 books of Moses and have to admit that it it sometimes hard to follow and alot to remember when it gets to all the temple practices and what is clean and unclean.

[Athaliamum]

Honestly it is good to go through a study of the precepts one by one or in like-groupings. That website I gave you does this.

By the way I edited my other post to contain that info that AbiYah was talking about.

[Desperate4Him2]

Sorry NT means New Testament. I understand the Jews only use the NT because they don't believe in Jesus being the son of G-d because they think he still hasn't came yet. So, what I was wanting to know was do Messianic use both the OT and NT but believe that these days are the NT days and the laws of the OT have been written over so to speak by the NT?






What do you mean faith was divorced from it's roots?
Messianics use both the OT and NT. Most study the Torah (first 5 books of OT which were written to Moses under the inspiration of YHVH). I know that I read through the scriptures somewhere between 1 and 3 times a year.

The NT writers' message has lost it's Hebrew flavor when written/translated/whichever into Greek. Greek is a completely different mindset philosophically and theologically to Hebrew which I believe is a language created by Abba. Once I began understanding the Hebrew mindset, the NT opened to me in ways I can't even describe!

BTW, I've seen and admired your posts for quite a while, Snowy. It's not much of a surprise to me that you are interested in Israel and things Jewish! :hug:

[Desperate4Him2]

So, you saying that Christians have forgetton the law of the OT and determined they are not worthy because we have the NT now? And in doing so we have lost part of our own heritage?

I have read the first 3 books of Moses and have to admit that it it sometimes hard to follow and alot to remember when it gets to all the temple practices and what is clean and unclean.
Exactly!

I happen to love Genesis/Beresheit and Exodus because it teaches all the why/wherefore we need to know. The other three books become more clear the more you read and study them. The Holy Spirit is an invaluable friend in bringing things to my attention. It's fun to say - I never saw that before and then figure out how it fits in! :)

There are many internet sites on which Messianic Rabbis and/or Jewish Rabbis teach on the reading for that week. It's been very educational! :thumbsup:

[Snowy]

Messianics use both the OT and NT. Most study the Torah (first 5 books of OT which were written to Moses under the inspiration of YHVH). I know that I read through the scriptures somewhere between 1 and 3 times a year.

The NT writers' message has lost it's Hebrew flavor when written/translated/whichever into Greek. Greek is a completely different mindset philosophically and theologically to Hebrew which I believe is a language created by Abba. Once I began understanding the Hebrew mindset, the NT opened to me in ways I can't even describe!

So I need to get a Jewish Bible written in Hebrew and do my best to learn it. BTW, I have to admit that many of the names of G-d that I have found in Hebrew I wish I could pronounce correctly.

I had been calling G-d The Most High G-d for awhile now but about a week ago I picked up Praying G-d's Word by Beth Moore and found El Elyon which means The Most High G-d in the first chapter. I had prayed for a name I have never heard before to call him by and have to admit that really made me have an experience I hadn't before.


BTW, I've seen and admired your posts for quite a while, Snowy. It's not much of a surprise to me that you are interested in Israel and things Jewish! :hug:

Don't give me any credit I just pass along what I believe G-d is telling me to share and ask. But, I do have to admit I have been trying to fight my interest in Jewish beliefs for quite some time but G-d keeps bringing me back. I think I realize now why, I have always craved something more then what I have found by Christian beliefs. I have been wanting more of a relationship then I have and have always felt as if something was missing and there was this wall there.

He even brought a Messianic woman into my life for awhile who taught me so much about being a daughter of G-d but don't see her much anymore. Now, through my church I have met a Messianic man who is very much like a brother to me in just the short time I have known him.

[Yovel]

Snowy,

You sound like a Messianic already. Did you know Rabbis teach their students by asking questions and by the students asking the Rabbi questions. This is a very effective way to learn.

Your questions are much the same as people searching for something more than what the church teaches. May the L-rd answer you in a special way.

[Wags]

Babysteps sister! :) You don't need to learn it all in a day. In Acts the council in Jerusalem tasked the gentile believers coming to faith with only 4 minimums since Moshe was preached every Shabbat. (In other words, let them learn it week by week....)

The Complete Jewish Bible is mostly english and you can research and compare it to the version you currently use here. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/) (Look for it under "modern translations")

As previously mentioned First Fruits of Zion (http://ffoz.org/) puts out some great books and I would highly recommend their book "Restoration (https://ffoz.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=186)" as a great starting place. They also put out a Messiah Magazine (http://ffoz.org/magazine/) and it is another great resource. A trial subscription includes 3 free magazines. There are also a lot of great teaching articles on this site.

Torah Resource (http://www.christianforums.com/www.torahresource.com)is another great resource. Most of the articles are in depth and scholarlly in nature. Some good info on how the church has divorced itself from its Jewish roots.

YashaNet (http://www.yashanet.com/messcon1.htm) has a pretty comprehensive listing of messianic congregations both in the US and international. They are currently reorganizing their list - so at the moment it is not available.

[Athaliamum]

I had started a thread on recommended reading, as at the moment our resource page is only internet based. I should revive it and see if we get more replies so that it can be used as a resource.

[Snowy]

Exactly!


And if that is the case then why aren't more Christians going back to their heritage?

It seems like I'm the only one who feels the way I do but then again I haven't talked to any of my Christian friends about any of this either.

I have been asking God to show me what I was missing and I really believe he was pointing here but I was ignoring him and kept asking for something more. I keep wandering back here to wander away and come back again. I have been fighting it for so long but it is getting to where I can't any longer. The more I learn about God the more I want to know. The more I experience him the more I want to. He has really got me this time and the weird thing is I'm not trying to fight him on it.

[visionary]

Now the struggle is over, hang on, for the blessings come next.

[Yovel]

Snowy, I would say a majority of Messianics here are from the church. The Ruach Ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit) has called us out of the church. It can be lonely but believe me we have all gone through the questioning of why am I the only one that sees this. Well there are plenty of here and we will help you when you ask.

Rev 18:1 After these things, I saw another angel coming down out of the sky, having great authority. The earth was illuminated with his glory.
2 He cried with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Bavel (Babylon) the great, and she has become a habitation of demons, a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird!
3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality, the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from the abundance of her luxury."
4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, that you have no participation in her sins, and that you don't receive of her plagues, IMHO the above verses is the L_RD calling out the true believers from out of the Church. The reason I say this is the church still celebrates Sunday worship and pagan holidays (Xmas and Easter).

Just don't feel alone. The L-RD is going to be calling a lot more people out of the church.

[Tishri1]

Hi Snowy, glad you are asking sooooo many questions. You do sound sooooo much like us when we were drawn by ABBA to this place in our lives. Have you done much research on the Festivals? The most facinating study I ever persued in my life! I've learned more about my relationship with ABBA and Yeshua from studying His wonderful appointed times, than anything else I have studied since becoming a Christian:clap:

Hope you are blessed by your time here:groupray:

[SpiritPsalmist]

The next day as Cornelius’s messengers were nearing the town, Peter went up on the flat roof to pray. It was about noon, and he was hungry. But while a meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the sky open, and something like a large sheet was let down by its four corners. In the sheet were all sorts of animals, reptiles, and birds. Then a voice said to him, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat them." “No, Lord,” Peter declared. “I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean." But the voice spoke again: “Do not call something unclean if G-d has made it clean.” Acts 10:9-15

Do not destroy the work of G-d for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. Romans 14:20

G-d says all food is clean so why do you worry about what you eat unless it causes someone else to stumble which I really don't understand how it could. If G-d said something is ok to eat then doesn't that make it ok as what happened in Acts?





What is D4H2?



I really have no clue if there is a Messianic Jew group near me.
It is my opinion that when God said "this is unclean" that He was saying "this is not food". God pointed out what was considered food and what was not. He did not point to a pig and say "that's food but I don't want you to eat it". He said, "that's unclean, therefore it's not food" If it's not food, it's not food. No matter what is done to it in this day and age. Peter was only doing what God had said. I don't see that Peter was being corrected on his eating habits but on his attitude toward the Gentile. "THEY" were not unclean. That does not change however what God Himself said was not food (but man has chosen to eat anyway) and what was.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Also, I'd like to add, (I don't know if anyone already has or not) but you should follow YOUR convictions. It will not work if you are only trying to follow what you believe are the rules of the Messianic. While God did basically say "this is not food" you have been eating it for a long time and probably enjoy it. However, if God has urged you in your heart to not eat what He did not call food then obey to the best of your ability.

[christinepro]

And if that is the case then why aren't more Christians going back to their heritage?

It seems like I'm the only one who feels the way I do but then again I haven't talked to any of my Christian friends about any of this either.

I have been asking God to show me what I was missing and I really believe he was pointing here but I was ignoring him and kept asking for something more. I keep wandering back here to wander away and come back again. I have been fighting it for so long but it is getting to where I can't any longer. The more I learn about God the more I want to know. The more I experience him the more I want to. He has really got me this time and the weird thing is I'm not trying to fight him on it.
I fought it for a long time too but yet I found myself seeking for it.

[Snowy]

I love G-d so much. I praise him for everything he has done for me. I know I'm being led down a different path then alot of the people I have in my life now.

[Snowy]

Is Kabbalah something that Messianic follow? From what I understand it is about a deeper prayer life but I have heard so many things about it ranging from it is good to it is the occult. What is your opinion on it?

[Desperate4Him2]

Kabbala is a mixed bag. Some is spooky; other is simply knowledge that is hidden or secret and not spooky at all. Madonna is into some sort of New Age mishmash of Kabbala.

Anyone else?

[HadassahSukkot]

Kabbala is a mixed bag. Some is spooky; other is simply knowledge that is hidden or secret and not spooky at all. Madonna is into some sort of New Age mishmash of Kabbala.

Anyone else?
To quote my elders and teachers....

One does not study "Kaballah" itself until they have a good grasp of Torah and their lives... your rabbis/teachers or elders will make this determination.

But, people often do not realize, from the bema/pulpit you are hearing things that are taught that are "Kaballah" (not the new age "stuff" - the writings from the Rabbinic writings and the Scriptures - primarily the Scriptures themselves).

There is a lot of misunderstanding floating around there and it takes a lot of discernment and study to know true from false.

I often learn and shelve what I do not understand to sort out later. Much of what I have been learning has been very interesting and very helpful to me; but then there are also many things I have to "shelve".

I would suggest not even touching it until you know you are on sure-footing, and let your most trusted teachers make that evaluation as well - as you would with any hermeneutical studies and linguistics studies.

G-d is my teacher foremost, and I follow His lead. If I feel at all uncomfortable with something, I say so and we don't cross that path until I am more comfortable with it.

Just like learning Torah; learning the hermeneutics and linguistics of everything can sometimes get very engrossing and we have to be careful that we don't get sucked down a wrong path or idea; or focus only on the task we are studying (thereby forgetting the entire purpose) - which has happened before.


I know not everyone would agree with me; but when does everyone actually agree on everything with everyone? ;)

Your mileage may vary, but I urge caution in everything.

[Desperate4Him2]

Well, my mileage is getting up there, but I agree with you, Antsy! Your post was what I could have wished mine was! :D

[Snowy]

So do I begin with the Torah?

[jgonz]

Yes, a good foundation is the Torah. Actually, The foundation is Torah! lol Everything else is built upon it.

I see sooo many Christians (and I used to be one of them) who are running around immersed in Only the New Testament, not understanding that they have no foundation. Constantly looking to be fed... running from one Bible study to another... always looking for more "meat" but not really understanding what that meat is...

I started reading the Torah portions 3.5 yrs ago, and I'm still amazed at how Grounded I feel (especially compared to how I felt before... 2 services a week and a ladies' Bible study still didn't make me feel "full" like reading the Torah portions does.)

[jgonz]

I wanted to add something about eating kosher... I understand completely why some Messianics eat only meats marked Kosher, however my DH & I are not led in that direction. We eat Biblically kosher (we eat only the animals G-d says are food in Leviticus), but we don't go as far as buying only kosher meat from a kosher market. The L-rd has impressed on my DH & I the importance of grass-fed beef and free-range poultry (because of the steroids, hormones, and antibiotics in mainstream meats), so I only buy meats from my health food store.

Just wanted to throw in a little difference in how some do things. ;)

[sing4777]

I wanted to add something about eating kosher... I understand completely why some Messianics eat only meats marked Kosher, however my DH & I are not led in that direction. We eat Biblically kosher (we eat only the animals G-d says are food in Leviticus), but we don't go as far as buying only kosher meat from a kosher market. The L-rd has impressed on my DH & I the importance of grass-fed beef and free-range poultry (because of the steroids, hormones, and antibiotics in mainstream meats), so I only buy meats from my health food store.

Just wanted to throw in a little difference in how some do things. ;)
We do the same in our house.
When I buy beef it is the hormone, antibiotic free meat.
I do however make sure that I soak it in Kosher salt water to get all the blood out.
I read that "somatids"(sp?) remain in the blood
and remain alive and that it contains the DNA of the
animal or person...
So of we eat bloody meat, we are technically eating the
DNA (life) that is contained in it.
It's really disgusting when you think about it.

[Snowy]

We do the same in our house.
When I buy beef it is the hormone, antibiotic free meat.
I do however make sure that I soak it in Kosher salt water to get all the blood out.
I read that "somatids"(sp?) remain in the blood
and remain alive and that it contains the DNA of the
animal or person...
So of we eat bloody meat, we are technically eating the
DNA (life) that is contained in it.
It's really disgusting when you think about it.


when you put it that way...that is sick :sick:

I read that when you cook hamburger you cook the blood into the meat which I never thought of until now. Plus all the things they put in the meat that makes us sick and we don't even know it. It makes my stomach roll to even think about it.

I can imagine going to the doctor for a checkup and being asked why I have cow DNA in my body :sick: That puts a new perspective on you are what you eat :eek:

[Snowy]

Yes, a good foundation is the Torah. Actually, The foundation is Torah! lol Everything else is built upon it.

I see sooo many Christians (and I used to be one of them) who are running around immersed in Only the New Testament, not understanding that they have no foundation. Constantly looking to be fed... running from one Bible study to another... always looking for more "meat" but not really understanding what that meat is...

I started reading the Torah portions 3.5 yrs ago, and I'm still amazed at how Grounded I feel (especially compared to how I felt before... 2 services a week and a ladies' Bible study still didn't make me feel "full" like reading the Torah portions does.)


I have read the first 3 and have to say Genesis and Exodus are fine but Leviticus is a challenge but I got through it. I haven't even started Numbers yet

[Desperate4Him2]

Numbers is fun, Snowy. It can seem dry, but remember that God included all those numbers and statistics in His book for a reason. So when you read something that bores you, try to tease out why it's so important! :thumbsup:

Do you have a Parasha schedule yet? If you do, do you have access to Messianic and Jewish midrash about the parasha - there are many which can be sent to you by email. I read them all - some I incorporate into my worldview and some I toss! :D

Edited to add: Leviticus - definitely a challenge to our PC worldview. But remember that the Israelites did not have prisons. And we know from the rest of the OT that a little yeast spoils the whole lump. :) It's worthwhile to spend time figuring out why some things are against God's law. :)

[Snowy]

Numbers is fun, Snowy. It can seem dry, but remember that God included all those numbers and statistics in His book for a reason. So when you read something that bores you, try to tease out why it's so important! :thumbsup:

Do you have a Parasha schedule yet? If you do, do you have access to Messianic and Jewish midrash about the parasha - there are many which can be sent to you by email. I read them all - some I incorporate into my worldview and some I toss! :D

Edited to add: Leviticus - definitely a challenge to our PC worldview. But remember that the Israelites did not have prisons. And we know from the rest of the OT that a little yeast spoils the whole lump. :) It's worthwhile to spend time figuring out why some things are against God's law. :)


I found one but at the moment can't print it :(

[Wags]

You can get a one year reading schedule here: http://ffoz.org/

They also have a short weekly commentary on the portions - that you can either read at their site or have emailed to you.

You can get a 3 year schedule here: http://www.torahresource.com/
They also have commentary on the weekly portion on the site.

[sing4777]

when you put it that way...that is sick :sick:

I read that when you cook hamburger you cook the blood into the meat which I never thought of until now. Plus all the things they put in the meat that makes us sick and we don't even know it. It makes my stomach roll to even think about it.

I can imagine going to the doctor for a checkup and being asked why I have cow DNA in my body :sick: That puts a new perspective on you are what you eat :eek:
LOL
I know... When I first found that out - I was pretty
wigged out just at the thought. The good thing is that
before we went Kosher I didn't like pink or bloody meat
anyway.

[Snowy]

I finally got my printer to work the other day so I was able to print out the parasha

[HadassahSukkot]

Cool. Holler if you need any help, or feel free to start a thread asking questions and I'm sure we'll all do our best to answer your questions.

:)

[Snowy]

I do like Numbers have only read a few chapters and can't understand why people say it is hard to read

[HadassahSukkot]

I love Numbers too.

Most people find it hard because of all the names, dates, items and quantities.


But when you look at it as a point to look up names and better understand the story being presented, why it's happening etc... it gets really cool ;)

My problem is that I get over-excited and people freak out that I'm excited about reading Numbers. LOL

[Snowy]

I love Numbers too.

Most people find it hard because of all the names, dates, items and quantities.


But when you look at it as a point to look up names and better understand the story being presented, why it's happening etc... it gets really cool ;)

My problem is that I get over-excited and people freak out that I'm excited about reading Numbers. LOL

Genesis, Exodus, & Numbers aren't hard but Leviticus was a challenge for me. I haven't got to Deut. yet.

[HadassahSukkot]

Have you heard of the "WALK" series (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=226200&netp_id=340265&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)?

I haven't a copy of them, but when I first started studying in a Messianic light, the elders at my congregation were using this series to help along question/answer sessions.

I wouldn't mind having them honestly. :)

I've found a lot of different parsha commentaries within the messianic community since, and try to take time out from time to time and check them out to see what kind of perspectives people have, and what they were able to draw out and study that I might have missed.

I get an emailed ones and have been just saving them for now, I think I'll get more use out of them when I know that fellowship is more scarce (when I move).

[shoshanarose]

Snowy,
To encourage you on your journey; I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you...My husband's grandmother is Jewish but he was not raised Jewish. I gave him the book called the Genesis Diet by Dr. Gordon Tessler (a Jewish believer in Yeshua) and it helped to explain why I ate kosher and why I kept Hashems commandments (for LIFE) for us...
It opened his eyes to the biblical and scriptural truths of the kosher laws in Leviticus. He has now been eating scriptural kosher for over 8 years (our marriage) and we do not intend to 'revert'...He is a godly man and loves Yeshua with all his heart...that is where it all starts. We also keep Shabbat not out of religion but a sincere desire to love Hashem with all that we have...to follow His commandments; not for salvation...that was purchased by Yeshua but for pleasing Hashem through our obedience. (It is better than sacrifice)

The most important thing is to desire to live your life to please Hashem (God) and to love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and to love Your neighbor as yourself...When you desire this, He increasingly shows you HOW you can please him...(that is where the Torah comes in...instruction for LIFE) Many Christians have had their faiths "opened"...(I have heard from a 180 degree to a 360 degree turn when they realized that Yeshua was Jewish!) Messiah Yeshua is in the OT-Torah and Tanakh also as well as the NT; Brit Chadesha)...He is the living Torah!!

(((Wags))) I love FFOZ...met Boaz Michael and even sang for a FFOZ convention of theirs in our area years ago. What a blessing. Their teaching is awesome.

Better than meat is some good Hummus (or falafel...)with pita bread and homemade tabbouleh...my favorites.

Blessings and Shalom on your journey...If you seek, you shall find...

[Snowy]

I was reading Numbers today and came across something in my Bible called The Book of the Wars of the Lord while reading Numbers 21:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers%2021:14;&version=51;) so I did a search on it and found this The Book of the Wars of the Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Wars_of_the_Lord)

I did find other books that are referenced in the Bible


In Joshua 10:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2010:13&version=51) and 2 Samuel 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%201:18;&version=51;) The Book of Jasher or also called The Book of the Upright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_haYashar_%28Biblical_references%29) is mentioned.

[HadassahSukkot]

I've read a copy of Yasher/Jasher before - very interesting stuff.

I have heard of this one via the scriptures, but I am unsure if this is something we will find more info on here in our lives or it will wait until Y'shua returns...

[Tishri1]

Cool. Holler if you need any help, or feel free to start a thread asking questions and I'm sure we'll all do our best to answer your questions.

:)oh yes!!!! what a great idea... Snowy please do:hug:

[Snowy]

oh yes!!!! what a great idea... Snowy please do:hug:


I have been :)

[Snowy]

Have you heard of the "WALK" series (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=226200&netp_id=340265&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)?

I haven't a copy of them, but when I first started studying in a Messianic light, the elders at my congregation were using this series to help along question/answer sessions.

I wouldn't mind having them honestly. :)

I've found a lot of different parsha commentaries within the messianic community since, and try to take time out from time to time and check them out to see what kind of perspectives people have, and what they were able to draw out and study that I might have missed.

I get an emailed ones and have been just saving them for now, I think I'll get more use out of them when I know that fellowship is more scarce (when I move).


very interesting when I get some of these bills behind me I will get them.

[Snowy]

Anybody have any links about the Festivals they could give me?

[Snowy]

Oh, I finished reading Numbers the other day...have yet to start Deut.

I loved Numbers! I think I'm going to re-read Leviticus before I go on to Deut.

[plum]

Anybody have any links about the Festivals they could give me?
really helpful link FILLED with info:
http://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/holidays.html

[plum]

Oh, I finished reading Numbers the other day...have yet to start Deut.

I loved Numbers! I think I'm going to re-read Leviticus before I go on to Deut.
:clap: good for you! I bet reading Lev and Deut back to back will cement lots of info into your mind since much of it is said twice. But it's really important, so don't skip out on those parts! :D

[BereanTodd]

Anybody have any links about the Festivals they could give me?

Follow this link, and watch both parts of the video at the top, "The Miracle of Passover". It is one of the best videos I've ever seen, and what started me down the path towards MJ beliefs.

[Wags]

Leviticus 23: Yeshua in the Jewish Holidays (http://www.shema.com/commentaries/Leviticus/Leviticus_23.php)

The Four Cups (Passover) (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Four%20Cups.pdf)

First Fruits of Zion (http://ffoz.org)has a number of articles on the feasts - you do have to sign up to access them. Once you are signed in look under "resources" > "articles"

[Snowy]

I needed to read this

Is there a difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity?
In one sense, Messianic Judaism and Christianity are the same thing. There is only one faith. Messianic Jews and Christians share the same core beliefs. Let’s define Christianity as faith in the God of Israel and the Messiah whom He sent to save Jews and Gentiles. It is made up of peoples from different cultures who have organized themselves into different denominations. Christianity is made up of Jewish Believers and Gentile Believers. Messianic Judaism is the same faith but it is expressed within the Jewish heritage. Both Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians are part of Messianic Judaism.

If Messianic Judaism was strictly Jewish at first, how did Gentiles come into the faith?
It was always God's will for the Gentile nations to share in His salvation (Isaiah 42:6, 49:6). God told Abraham that through him all the nations of the Earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3). The Lord set apart the Jewish people to bring the knowledge of God, the Word of God, and the Savior to the rest of the world. At first the early Messianic Jews did not understand that this was God's will and they proclaimed the Good News only to other Jewish people. Ironically, the big controversy in the first century was not whether Jews could believe in Yeshua (naturally they could), but whether Gentiles could come into the faith without having to “become Jewish”! When Messianic Jews finally understood that salvation was also intended for the Gentiles, they began to share the Good News with non-Jews as well as with Jews. As a result, many Gentiles began to come into the faith.

http://www.shema.com/messianic_judaism.php

[plum]

Follow this link, and watch both parts of the video at the top, "The Miracle of Passover". It is one of the best videos I've ever seen, and what started me down the path towards MJ beliefs.
no link?

[Snowy]

no link?


that was what I was thinking ;) ^_^

[BereanTodd]

Oops! I'm so sorry, here you go ... again the first video down, it's viewable free online, in 2 parts, called "The Miracle of Passover"

http://www.worshipradio.com/home/ZolaVideo.html

[Snowy]

I have to admit even now part of me is trying to fight growing closer to G-d. But, I can ignore it any longer. I have talked with Je-us about this several times. And, everytime I feel a pulling here and it just gets stronger.

I know I have alot to still learn and unlearn and I know it will take time. But, I believe I am ready to finally take a step of faith towards this direction. So, if you are ready for me to join you then please do so.

I do want so much more then just using what I have learned through church. I want a more intimate relationship with the Saviour. The more I have researched on the Messianic faith the more I feel drawn to it. I truly believe this is where I am meant to be.

I am going to do my best to change my eating habits though I know it will be hard because I do love sausage :D Please pray for me as I walk a different path then what I have known. Please pray that my family will accept my new beliefs without too much trouble. If a mod would like to change my faith icon for the last time please do so to Messianic. Thank you!

[Snowy]

I have to be honest in saying I don't have the discipline I should have. I think part of it is not being raised up in a Christian home. And trying to live right with God is so much harder now that I'm an adult and don't have that background. But, I am seeking Him and I am trying. I have times I fail but everyone does. I need to stop being so hard on myself for doing something wrong and remember that I am not perfect and need to stop trying to be.

[christianmomof3]

I have to be honest in saying I don't have the discipline I should have. I think part of it is not being raised up in a Christian home. And trying to live right with God is so much harder now that I'm an adult and don't have that background. But, I am seeking Him and I am trying. I have times I fail but everyone does. I need to stop being so hard on myself for doing something wrong and remember that I am not perfect and need to stop trying to be.
:hug: We all fail all of the time. The wonderful thing is that Christ is the great I Am.
Everything that we are not, He Is.
Everything that we cannot do, He Can.
And He lives within us.
So, we simply need to turn to our spirit and touch Him and live Him and give ourselves to Him.
He is transforming us into His image day by day, but spiritual growth is a slow process just like physical growth is.
It would be very strange if a baby were to leap out of the womb full grown and walking and talking wouldn't it?
Well, spiritually, we begin as babies, and we must pursue Christ, read the Bible, pray and fellowship with other Christians and He will grow in us and transform us into His image.
But, not all at once, but rather at a normal healthy growth rate.
The more we eat a healthy diet of Christ by reading His word, praying and fellowshipping with other Christians, the stronger we will be and the better our growth rate will be.
But, we cannot cause the growth, only the Lord does that.

[silversurfer7]

Can a Christian that has no Jewish heritage become a Messianic?

If so what practices would I follow and where would I start?
YES YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY THE CHURCH RIGHT NOW HAS LOST ITS JEWISH HERITAGE THE AMAZING THING TO ME IS THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPURES WERE WRITTEN FOR THE MOST PART BY JEWISH MEN THERE IS A RICH HERITAGE THAT YOU CAN EXPERIENCE IN WORSHIP PRAISE STUDY FIRST GO ON THE INTERNET LOOK UP REF FOR JEWISH HOLIDAYS JUST REad about all the holidays first then if you want i will you some other stuff we are messianic pastors in idyllwild ca i would love to give you all that you need to get started we are here to help you the next festival is purim march 3rd just go on any search engine purim this will give you what it is ok shalom pastor jeff

[Snowy]

I'm finally reading Deuteronomy. I found this Bible (The One Year Chronological Bible, NLT by Tyndale House Publishers) and I love it! It has daily scripture readings in the order they are supposed to have happened.

[Tishri1]

welcome to our forum silversurfer:wave:

[Snowy]

I found a complete Bible on audio cd and have been listening to it while at work. I am learning how to pronounce alot of the names in the Bible I usually skipped over because it was gibberish to me. I haven't had a physical Bible infront of me while I am listening yet but am going to try this one of these days.

[Dvorah27]

Absolutely anyone can become Messianic.

To become Jewish though; you either are born; or you convert.

The only people doing conversions are the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaisms - not Messianic Judaism.

If you already have faith in Y'shua; you need only then obey His commandments. :)

No need to change ethnicity; G-d says even those of the nations who obey His voice and commands is blessed.

"Many are called but few are the chosen"

Conversion is a man-made thing, certainly something somebody can do if they WANT to, but Biblically you are a Jew as soon as you believe in Yeshua as your Messiah. It doesn't matter if you are of pure pagan stock, you are a Jew or Jewess if you believe in the God of Israel.

[visionary]

True biblical jewishness is the character that develops from studying the Word of God, studying and living by the Laws of God, and believing in Yeshua fulfilled the spring type feasts and will return in the fulfillment of the fall feasts.

[Sephania]

Conversion is a man-made thing, certainly something somebody can do if they WANT to, but Biblically you are a Jew as soon as you believe in Yeshua as your Messiah. It doesn't matter if you are of pure pagan stock, you are a Jew or Jewess if you believe in the God of Israel. Not so my dear, pray tell what does it make a Jew when one believes that Yeshua is his promised Messiah? :)

[Dvorah27]

Not so my dear, pray tell what does it make a Jew when one believes that Yeshua is his promised Messiah? :)


No need to be snide, what I was saying that whether or not you are born a Jew you are considered according to God's word to be a Jew once you believe. So, if you come from pure pagan stock you are still a Jew if you believe in Yeshua as your Messiah, you are grafted in.

[Snowy]

No need to be snide, what I was saying that whether or not you are born a Jew you are considered according to God's word to be a Jew once you believe. So, if you come from pure pagan stock you are still a Jew if you believe in Yeshua as your Messiah, you are grafted in.


:thumbsup:

[SpiritPsalmist]

No need to be snide, what I was saying that whether or not you are born a Jew you are considered according to God's word to be a Jew once you believe. So, if you come from pure pagan stock you are still a Jew if you believe in Yeshua as your Messiah, you are grafted in.

:scratch: It sounds lke you're saying our nationality changes when we become a believer.

[Dvorah27]

:scratch: It sounds lke you're saying our nationality changes when we become a believer.

I've talked about this before on other parts of this forum, but Messianics pretty much already know this, so I'll post a link that explains it in so much detail that there can be no misunderstanding. (basically all he says, though, is summed up in exactly what I said.)

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1999/1072_Who_is_a_True_Jew_Part_2/

[Snowy]

I've talked about this before on other parts of this forum, but Messianics pretty much already know this, so I'll post a link that explains it in so much detail that there can be no misunderstanding. (basically all he says, though, is summed up in exactly what I said.)

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1999/1072_Who_is_a_True_Jew_Part_2/


John Piper is one of my favorite's

[SpiritPsalmist]

I've talked about this before on other parts of this forum, but Messianics pretty much already know this, so I'll post a link that explains it in so much detail that there can be no misunderstanding. (basically all he says, though, is summed up in exactly what I said.)

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1999/1072_Who_is_a_True_Jew_Part_2/
I would like the thoughts of some of the other Messianic members on this article please....Shimshon, Henaynei, Charles, Tishri, P_G, Torah, mpossoff, ..... If you've already given your thoughts elsewhere a link to it would work. If you want to PM me that would be fine too.

Thanks :)

[Dvorah27]

Snowy, I love your Avatar.

[Tishri1]

I would like the thoughts of some of the other Messianic members on this article please....Shimshon, Henaynei, Charles, Tishri, P_G, Torah, mpossoff, ..... If you've already given your thoughts elsewhere a link to it would work. If you want to PM me that would be fine too.

Thanks :)
can I plead the fifth;)

It was a nice article and my desire is that we would all be one in Messiah, however ABBA and Yeshua want us to be:wave:

[SpiritPsalmist]

Having an opinion is not bad. I believe I understand what scripture means when it says "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." I'm not sure that I agree with the article though. I think a lot of stretching is being done.

However, I like to get differing opinions. Especially from those that I'm use to reading and trust. I know even among you there are differing opinions but if possible I would like to know what are your opinions.

If you don't want to answer that is fine. I don't want arguing. The article just does not seem quite right to me. But maybe it's just me. :) Sometimes it takes me longer than some.

[mpossoff]

I would like the thoughts of some of the other Messianic members on this article please....Shimshon, Henaynei, Charles, Tishri, P_G, Torah, mpossoff, ..... If you've already given your thoughts elsewhere a link to it would work. If you want to PM me that would be fine too.

Thanks :)

First to get the context Paul is talking to Jews only here. I believe he's not even talking or referring that Gentiles can become Jews or 'spiritual' Jews. And I don't think he's saying that believers become 'spiritual' Jews. And that God doesn't distinguish between Jew or Gentile in any way.

Since he was talking to Jews and not gentiles I believe it's apparent that Paul is not even referring to ethnicity.

Being a Jew outwardly means nothing to God. In Deut He commands being born again, circumcison of your heart.

Deuteronomy 10:16 -- "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiffnecked no longer."

Deuteronomy 30:6 -- "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

Marc

[SpiritPsalmist]

Thank you Marc :)

[NHisHands]

This whole post has been extremely helpful to me. I stayed up into the early morning hours to read all this and look up each of the links given. Even though this post isn't directed at me, I thank you all for all the helpful advice and links.

[Sephania]

B"H
No need to be snide, what I was saying that whether or not you are born a Jew you are considered according to God's word to be a Jew once you believe. So, if you come from pure pagan stock you are still a Jew if you believe in Yeshua as your Messiah, you are grafted in. It was an honest question, nothing snide about it. :) If you don't know how to answer that, it's fine. I have to say I don't follow your line of reasoning. It is a Jewish thing to believe in our Messiah, but as a gentile I don't know how believing in the Jewish Messiah makes you one.

[Kalanit]

As A gentile, I do not believe I become a Jew when I believe in Y'shua. I'm still a Gentile. I become spiritual offspring of Avraham, because, like him, I come into the Kingdom through Faith. That Faith happens to be revealed through the Jewish people. I'm still a Gentile though. I'm adopted, I'm grafted in... I come from 'the Nations" and I join my faith to the Faith of the Jewish people.

Now, out of all the ethnic Jews - the physical Nation of Israel - some are Jews inwardly (in faith) and outwardly (ethnicity.) Others are Jews outwardly (ethnicity) but NOT inwardly. Take Howard Stern. He may have the nose and curly hair... but that dude is far from being 'Kosher' in the sight of G-d! He is a Jew outwardly - but a Pagan inwardly. It doesn't matter if he makes his kids go through Bar/ Bat Mitzvah... or if he circs on the 8th day... he is a Pagan in his heart.

His ethnicity will not get him a free ticket into the Kingdom.

[Sephania]

lol, not all of us have the nose or curly hair kalanit, just as some have found Messiah and others have not ............yet. :)

[Kalanit]

:D haha ... um, well, I don't think Howard Stern ever will... but G-d can do miracles.

[visionary]

When I first really got into studying for myself, that verse struck my gentile heart.... I was given a heart felt desire to know what and how to be a "spiritual jew", Not one outwardly but the true circumcision of the heart. Since my spiritual journey has brought me this far, I have experienced a sense of contentment when it comes to the "spiritual jew" question. MJ is probably the closest I have been to the realisation in my life what what the living example of "spiritual jews" is.