jewish or christian??

[Chazemataz]

This is a sort of dumb question, but up til about 5 minutes ago i never knew there was such a thing as Messianic Judaism. so... I am just wondering, do yu guys consider yourselfs to be christian or jewish? and do you celebrate Christmas and Easter aswell as the ancient Jewish ceremonies? and what do u refer to your churches as? Thanks for answering my questions, as u can see this is something new to me lol. :wave:

[jgonz]

Each one of us does things a tad differently, but I'll answer your questions from my perspective...

I consider myself to be a Believer, or Messianic, or Christian with a strong Jewish leaning, or something along those lines.

I do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, as those holidays have completely pagan roots.

I do celebrate the Biblical Feasts and appointed Holy days given in Scripture. (Sabbath, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Shavuout/Pentecost, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Sukkot/Feast of Tabernacles, also Purim and Hanukkah)

The place of worship is considered a Messianic congragation.

[visionary]

Yeah... what she said.

[Wags]

What we have in common with Christianity is the belief that Yeshua is the promised messiah. What we have in common with Judaism is a love of Torah.

I celebrate the times appointed by The Most High, and do not celebrate those created by man (christmas, ester etc).

I refer to our meeting place as "the shed" but everyone else calls it Shul. (We meet in my pole barn - it is a finished and heated space complete with restroom ) . :)

[Athaliamum]

I always wonder at this question, and you are by far not the first. It implies that jewishness and christianity is mutally exclusive, that only there is only an either/or response. Without Judaism, christianity has absolutely not foundation or basis for faith. To remove Yeshua from the political, domestic and spiritual culture in which he established himself never made much sense to me. I think the answer is a little from column A and a little from column B to create the balance I believe God intended.

[Tishri1]

Thanks for asking questions like these as many people are concerned about our name and think we arent believers but we are, yes we are!:clap: I think if you look at what we observe you would see the Jewish side of us, but if you look at what (or rather who) we believe in you would definately see the Christian side...to distinguish us from other groups who also believe as we do (in Jesus) I think our customs, our Jewishness is what sets us apart from the rest, but not apart in faith,:clap: only in observance:thumbsup:

[Yovel]

What we have in common with Christianity is the belief that Yeshua is the promised messiah. What we have in common with Judaism is a love of Torah.

I celebrate the times appointed by The Most High, and do not celebrate those created by man (christmas, ester etc).

I refer to our meeting place as "the shed" but everyone else calls it Shul. (We meet in my pole barn - it is a finished and heated space complete with restroom ) . :)

I agree!

[StormSeeker]

This question comes up because of misconceptions about messiahs, Judaism, Yeshua, etc. There is no context to Yeshua. Christianity is not where its at in my view. There were no first Christians after Yeshua ressurection. The apostles were Jewish believers, and they recruited Jewish believers until Shaul (Paul) converted. It was Shaul who then reached out to Gentiles.

While the covenant pertains to "Jewish blood". Everything else as Jewishness goes is about your soul- following Yeshua and keeping Torah. In fact a Gentile is more Jewish than true blood Jews who do not keep Torah- and there are alot of them. This is where the Nefesh Yehudi comes in- the soul of praise. Avraham had this as many other great men of God did- but Avraham was a Gentile.

First- the bible is a Hebrew (Jewish) book. There is not a single Gentile/Christian writer in the entire book.

Next the Jewish people believe in many messiahs. Moshe for example is the greatest messiah they have know. They are accustomed to messiahs and to miracles. The Jewish people missed Yeshua as a messiah because he did miracles just as their previous messiahs and just like those other messiahs- he died.

The scriptures are very clear that our salvation comes through the Jews, the oracles of God were given to the Jews, the covenants is with the Jews, and that the Jews were blinded so the Gentiles will ahve a chance at being grafted into Israel.

We should not think it miraculous that any Jew would ever accept Yeshua back then, now, or in the future. It is a miracle that the Gentiles have accepted this Jewish Messiah called Yeshua. It is the messiah that is foreign to us- not to the Jews.

Shalom.

P.S. To me- the Messianic label is a misnomer. You can be Jewish and believe in Yeshua. My rabbi was born and raised in Israel- his parents went through the holocaust. His father taught my rabbi about Yeshua starting at the age of 5. There are true blood Jews that believe- but they are still Jewish and would not refer to themselves as Messianic- my rabbi doesn't like the label either. Me like him- we both prefer- the believers- ma ameniem.

[Torah]

Top of the day to you Chazemataz
Jewish or Christian??



This is a sort of dumb question, but up till about 5 minutes ago I never knew there was such a thing as Messianic Judaism. So... I am just wondering, do you guys consider yourselves to be Christian or Jewish? I believe most of us would say that we consider ourselves just “MESSIANIC.” and do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? I believe most of us would say “no” aswell as the ancient Jewish ceremonies? Only G-ds Holydays. And what do u refer to your churches as? A Messianic synagogue. Thanks for answering my questions, as u can see this is something new to me lol.
You have a bless day Chazemataz.
Shalom

[Espada]

For me, I would say both. We (my wife and myself) observe both Jewish and Christian festivals which makes December extra special. Currently we attend a church because there is no local messianic congregation.

[HadassahSukkot]

I tend to stick as usuall with believe or Messianic.

To the three israelis I met today; "Netzer"/"netzerim" is the designation I used; which they were very interested to hear more, and only one had the time to take with myself and my sister.

I am pleased to explain what I believe when people have the time. I believe in Y'shua but am returning to my roots; my faith and my family.

It is my prayer that as someone who is shomer mitzvot that I will be able to assist in reuniting trust between the family of Israel those who may not know Y'shua with those who do.


I keep a watchful wait and prayer until I am shown what to say and what to do to assist in that avenue.
Today I have been shown many things which I think are a foretaste of the future which is bitter AND sweet. (I think the sweet far outweighs the bitter though!)

[stone]

I'm a messianic gentile, and I think you'll find in scripture that Y-shua observed passover, and served to be the lamb of g-d. You won't find scripture that commemorates anything called Easter.

[HaReb]

May I offer my thoughts? Re Easter (and Christmas) decidely not Biblical in almost every way. Although, having said that, in throwing out both we need to ensure the birth and ressurection of Y'shua are not lost. Y'shua had to be born in order to die and rise again! At the end of the day His birth was for the Jews, not the whole world - the Goyim should really celebrate Epiphany and the giving of the word (or the grafting in - Romans 11:17). It is sad that the very Nation for whom the Birth was intended is the very Nation that, on the whole, doesn't recognise it at all! See Romans 1 & 2 for the order in which God works.

[Jim47]

Thanks to my good friend and little Sister Tish I understand your beliefs just a wee bit better ;)

I hope you don't mind my asking a few questions here as I hope to learn and understand more, if my tired old noodle will allow that :scratch:

So if I may, I would like to ask some pointed questions as my noggin is pointed and I understand pointed answers better :)

I can readily see that you look to Jesus as your Savior just as I do, Praise The Lo-d (did I do that right) :)

But you also follow dietary retrictions set up under Mosaic law, if I am correct? :)

You also observe the OT holidays set under Mosaic law, kee-rect? :)

I think your beliefs of The Trinity differ then mine, but I don't know enough to ask how, can you help me out please?

I believe you also look for Jesus return when He will take all believers to be with Him into heaven, but I believe you don't believe that there is a rapture before He returns as some do ( I mean like thousands of years before)

I really hope you kind folks don't mind my questions as I am just inquisitive, I guess I'm reverting to the "terrible twos" as a two year old would ;)

I would also like to invite all of you to TCL (Lutherans) to chat with us. We will be happy to discuss anything with you, or if you prefer you can PM me.

O'k now Tish, please don't ban me, pretty please. :hug:

[Wags]

As a general rule, Messianics do follow the divine instructions (also known as Torah) given by the Holy One, blessed be He. That means we keep the dietary laws (i.e. kosher) observe the appointed times (Passover, Yom Kippor, Sukkot etc...) and remember the 7th day to keep it Holy. However, it is important to not that this is a congregational movement and not a denomination - so there isn't a governing body that puts out a "offical" statement of beliefs. All that to say the following is my belief.


What is your view of the rapture? My view of the rapture can best be summed up as "Prepare for Post-trib and pray for Pre-Trib."

What is your view of the "trinity"?The nature of the Holy One, blessed be He, is unique and incomprehensible. I believe in One God as he has revealed Himself in scripture. (Duet 6:4) I believe that Yeshua is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Eternal One in Whom all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, and who is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us, and whose glory we beheld, the glory of the uniquely begotten Son of God, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1–14; Colossians 2:9) I believe that the Spirit of God comforts, teaches, leads, indwells and empowers all whom God regenerates. (Acts 9:31; 1 John 2:27; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:7)

What is your view of Torah? I believe that Torah was given to show a redeemed people how to live a life that is pleasing to the one that redeemed them. We do not keep torah in order to merit salvation – that is not what it was designed for. We keep it because we have been redeemed.

Yeshua himself said that He did not come to abolish Torah and that those that taught and kept it would be called great in the kingdom. (Matt 5:17-20) He also said that only those that “do the will of my Father” will enter the kingdom and those that don’t he called workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-23) If you are lawless than you are without Torah. Yeshua also said “…it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void.” (Luke 16:17)

Now some have mistakenly taught that Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) taught against the Torah but he actually called it “holy, just and good”. (Romans 7:12) He also said, “I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.” (Acts 24:14) He even claimed not to have violated oral torah – traditions of the fathers. (Acts 28:17). Paul also wrote “For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God's sight.” (Romans 2:13)

For myself personally – through the power the Ruach HaKodesh (holy spirit) - I endeavor to observe Torah because that is what Yeshua did, and he is our ultimate example of how to live.

[Jim47]

Thank you much Wags. :thumbsup: That was a great explaination and helped me immensely. I'll be back to study that more and maybe ask some questions ;)

Have a great night

Oh! I do have another question. Do you folks have english bibles or do have them in another language? And If I may ask, are you predominatly Jewish anncestry or doesn't that even matter? The reason I ask is I was great friends with a Jewish Rabbi for a couple of years until he moved and I lost track of him.

Thanks again. :wave:

[visionary]

If I may speak for most of us here, we are not all jewish and do use english versions of the Bible. Some of us have the Jewish Bible in hebrew because we are studying it and learning the language.

[Tishri1]

O'k now Tish, please don't ban me, pretty please. I dont even think I've had that opertunity yet Jim...I tried a few sock puppets and even messed that up :D

this is my partner in crime everyone... we try to keep everyone in stitches in the office forums, but I think we mostly just crack ourselves up^_^:swoon:^_^:swoon:

[Jim47]

If I may speak for most of us here, we are not all jewish and do use english versions of the Bible. Some of us have the Jewish Bible in hebrew because we are studying it and learning the language.



Thank you. I had kind of assumed that you aren't all Jewish, but I really had no idea whether you ued Hebrew bibles or not. My Pastor (WELS Lutheran) can read and write Hebrew and Greek and a couple of other languages. He said this really comes in handy for him as the translations into English don't always use the best choice of words.
Thanks again for anwering my questions folks, much appreciated.

[Jim47]

I dont even think I've had that opertunity yet Jim...I tried a few sock puppets and even messed that up :D

this is my partner in crime everyone... we try to keep everyone in stitches in the office forums, but I think we mostly just crack ourselves up^_^:swoon:^_^:swoon:



Ahh Tish, we do make good on having fun Heh? :D

You've been a good friend and I appreciate your jovial sence of humor, it really helps to brighten the day :thumbsup:

[BereanTodd]

I believe you also look for Jesus return when He will take all believers to be with Him into heaven, but I believe you don't believe that there is a rapture before He returns as some do ( I mean like thousands of years before)



There is a range of views amongst Messianics on many topics, and eschatology is certainly one of them. Some are dispensational pretrib others are not. You can't really put your finger on one single view though and say "THIS is what Messianic eschatology is".

[visionary]

It is the attitude towards eschatology that brings MJ more in sinc. For the most part MJ are of the wait and see attitude. Wait and watch with predominate focus on what is happening in Jerusalem from which all prophectic fulfillments will center on.

[HadassahSukkot]

It is the attitude towards eschatology that brings MJ more in sinc. For the most part MJ are of the wait and see attitude. Wait and watch with predominate focus on what is happening in Jerusalem from which all prophectic fulfillments will center on.
Agreed. I know more post than pre-trib messianics; but what has brought us together the most is that we are "pray for pre, plan for post" - kind of "Pan tribulational" is the joke at my shul.... "Pan tribulational: It will all "pan out" In the end ;)"

[Wags]

Thank you much Wags. :thumbsup: That was a great explaination and helped me immensely. I'll be back to study that more and maybe ask some questions ;)

Have a great night

Oh! I do have another question. Do you folks have english bibles or do have them in another language? And If I may ask, are you predominatly Jewish anncestry or doesn't that even matter? The reason I ask is I was great friends with a Jewish Rabbi for a couple of years until he moved and I lost track of him.

Thanks again. :wave:
My household is mixed :) My husband is fairly fluent in hebrew and reads scripture in both Hebrew and English (his bible has both). I read in English, unless I'm doing an intense study.

Your pastor friend is right - sometimes translations just don't convey the full meaning of the words. That is true regardless of the origional language being translated - something usually gets lost in translation.

[HadassahSukkot]

Oh! I do have another question. Do you folks have english bibles or do have them in another language? And If I may ask, are you predominatly Jewish anncestry or doesn't that even matter?

I think you'd love what I have. LOL
I use E-sword, so that I can use many different translations as well as double check my research in the Hebrew and Greek. I'm still trying to learn Hebrew, so I have a Chumash and a Tanakh in Hebrew as well as a NT in Hebrew & KJV.

I use two German translations too. (Luther & Good News)

I also use the Peshi'tta and the Targumim (I'm limited with the Targums to the Torah at this time, I haven't found a complete Tanakh version)

As far as heritage, mine is very mixed; but I am finding on my dad's mother's side and my mom's mother's side Jewish ancestry (not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things) - and Andreas is Jewish thru & thru.

Thank you. I had kind of assumed that you aren't all Jewish, but I really had no idea whether you ued Hebrew bibles or not. My Pastor (WELS Lutheran) can read and write Hebrew and Greek and a couple of other languages. He said this really comes in handy for him as the translations into English don't always use the best choice of words.

Now that is cool :)

I agree the translations aren't always "the best choice"... but I'm still learning so I can use all the help I get. :D

[Jim47]

I want to thank you folks again for being so nice to me. Tish had her chance to ban me and missed it. I would have even helped her as I could use the practive myself (never done thet)

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my questions and dull humor and I'll look for Ya'all to come visit me. :wave: You are really a neat bunch of poeple. :hug:

[Tishri1]

Hey did you guys hear that nice invitation Jim made inviting us over for a chat;)

Lets go get 'em guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JUST KIDDEN:P


seriously though I do believe his has one of the very few Congragational Forums that welcomes healthy, banter.....
Watch out though it may be a trick:eek:......remember he needs to ban someone yet too:P^_^

[Jim47]

Hey did you guys hear that nice invitation Jim made inviting us over for a chat;)

Lets go get 'em guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JUST KIDDEN:P


seriously though I do believe his has one of the very few Congragational Forums that welcomes healthy, banter.....
Watch out though it may be a trick:eek:......remember he needs to ban someone yet too:P^_^




^_^ ^_^ You slay Me Tishrei. I can asure that I won't bad anyone. In fact rearely have t give out warnings, but we really do love visitors. If you'all want I will create a thread just for you. :hug:

Just let me know :P

[Demetrius1]

what's pagan about Christmas and Easter? The Messiah was obviously born and resurected, no? and what's so wrong about celebrating those two cornerstone events of his life? I'm not talking about the christams tree and the easter bunny.

[Wags]

what's pagan about Christmas and Easter? The Messiah was obviously born and resurected, no? and what's so wrong about celebrating those two cornerstone events of his life? I'm not talking about the christams tree and the easter bunny.


Thsoe were "holidays" designed by man - and are celebrated instead of the ones appointed by God.

Yeshua was the passover lamb, and he arose on the Feast of First Fruits. The timing for Easter was set to deliberately distance christians from the true roots of their faith . Wouldn't it be better for followers of Messiah to do what he did?

As for Christmas - we don't know when he was born exactly but most signs point to the fall, and quite possibly the Feast of Tabernacles. (The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.) Again it is a date set by man, and not one set by God.

There is a whole lot more on these topics, but I don't want to high jack the thread.

[Jim47]

Wags

The timing for Easter was set to deliberately distance christians from the true roots of their faith . Wouldn't it be better for followers of Messiah to do what he did?





I've heard this very same statement from many people but I really don't understand the thinking behind it. Could you please elaborate a little for me?

For example, Lutherans celebrate Easter as being the day that God raised Jesus from the dead and declared all of His followers to be free from guilt and sin and therefore redeemed as His own dear children. I'm guessing you are speaking of the pagan side of the holiday which I honestly don't know about, other then the easter bunny which is just a childish fantacy.

Many thanks :)

[visionary]

what's pagan about Christmas and Easter? The Messiah was obviously born and resurected, no? and what's so wrong about celebrating those two cornerstone events of his life? I'm not talking about the christams tree and the easter bunny.We do celebrate these and other cornerstones in His Life.... Just not the same way nor with the same understanding as you were taught.

Messiah Birth

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm

The Resurrection

http://www.mayimhayim.org/Festivals/Feast5.htm

[visionary]

I've heard this very same statement from many people but I really don't understand the thinking behind it. Could you please elaborate a little for me?

For example, Lutherans celebrate Easter as being the day that God raised Jesus from the dead and declared all of His followers to be free from guilt and sin and therefore redeemed as His own dear children. I'm guessing you are speaking of the pagan side of the holiday which I honestly don't know about, other then the easter bunny which is just a childish fantacy.

Many thanks :) Would you be interested in how the disciples saw the fulfillment of prophecy and celebrated the death and resurrection of Yeshua?

[Jim47]

We do celebrate these and other cornerstones in His Life.... Just not the same way nor with the same understanding as you were taught.

Messiah Birth

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm

The Resurrection

http://www.mayimhayim.org/Festivals/Feast5.htm



Most Christians are well aware that Dec. 25 is likely not the day of Jesus birth, but to me that doesn't matter. Its the day we have chosen to celebrate His birth and thank God for keeping His promise of a Savior.

As for your second link, I don't understand what it has to do with Jesus resurrection. :)

[Jim47]

Would you be interested in how the disciples saw the fulfillment of prophecy and celebrated the death and resurrection of Yeshua?


Of course, thats why I am here asking questions, and I really do appreciate your allowing me here. :)

[Wags]

Most Christians are not taught the significance of the Times appointed by Adonai. So they end up missing out on so much.

For example - they don't know the significance behind what Yeshua did at the "last supper". You can read an excellent article that covers this here. (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Four%20Cups.pdf)

This aritcle goes into depth about the Growing split between the Synagoge and the Church (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Last%20Fiscus%20Judaicus.pdf)in the 1st century and some of the things that led to.

[Wags]

THE ORIGIN OF EASTER SUNDAY
- by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.


The introduction of Easter-Sunday appears to have occurred after Emperor Hadrian ruthlessly crushed the Barkokeba revolt (A. D. 132-135) and rebuilt on the ruins of Jerusalem a new Roman city, Aelia Capitolina. At this time, Hadrian promulgated the most repressive legislation, prohibiting the practice of Judaism, in general, and Jewish festivals, in particular. Jews and Jewish-Christians were expelled from the city and categorically forbidden to reenter it.

The Church historian Eusebius (About A. D. 260-340) informs us that as a result of Hadrian's edict, the Jewish-Christian members and bishops of Jerusalem were replaced with Gentile Christian members and leaders: "The Church there was now composed of Gentiles, the first one to assume the government of it after the bishops of the circumcision was Marcus." This replacement suggests that a clear distinction was made at that time between Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians. Presumably, this distinction was not limited to the racial factor alone, but included also a new theological orientation, especially toward characteristic Jewish festivals such as Passover.

This hypothesis is supported by the Palestinian historian Epiphanius (ca A. D. 315-403), who in his lengthy report over the Passover controversy states: "The controversy arose after the exodus of the bishops of the circumcision [A. D. 135] and it has continued until our time." Epiphanius clearly says that the fifteen Jewish-Christian bishops who administered the Jerusalem Church until A. D. 135 had observed Passover on Nisan 14 in accordance with the so-called Apostolic Constitutions, where the following rule is given: "You shall not change the calculation of the time, but you shall celebrate it at the same time as your brethren who came out from the circumcision. With them observe the Passover."

The fact that the Passover controversy arose when Emperor Hadrian adopted new repressive measures against Jewish religious practices suggests that such measures influenced the new Gentile hierarchy to change the date of Passover from Nisan 14 to the following Sunday (Easter-Sunday) in order to show separation and differentiation from the Jews and Jewish-Christians. Elsewhere, I have argued that the same factors contributed to the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday.

Easter Sunday and Anti-Judaism. As long as Jewish Christians had influence in the church, the Biblical typology and experience of Passover were maintained by the church. But as Gentile Christians gained control of the church, the Biblical Passover themes began to wane, being replaced by pagan symbols and myths that, as we shall see, became part of the Easter celebration.

In their book, Passover: Before Messiah and After,Donna and Mal Broadhurst rightly observe that "Gentile Christians usually came from a background devoid of Scriptural knowledge. They did not have a natural appreciation for, allegiance to, or comprehension of the Scriptures, especially the Law and Prophets which they misunderstood, overlooked, or actually discarded in the early church struggle to break free from erroneous legalizers. They found it easy to disregard Passover and other major institutions of the Mosaic Covenant."

The problem with Gentile Christians was not only their lack of familiarity with Scripture, but also their excessive fascination with their Greek philosophical speculations, which conditioned their understanding of Biblical truths. While Jewish Christians often erred in the direction of legalism, Gentile Christians often erred in the direction of philosophical speculations which sundered Christianity from its historical roots.

The detachment of Gentile Christians from their Jewish roots was influenced by the repressive policies adopted by Roman emperors against the Jewish people and religion as well as by the defamatory campaign waged by Jews against the Christians. These factors encouraged Gentile Christians to develop a "Christian" theology of contempt toward the Jews as a people and toward Judaism as a religion. A whole body of Against the Jews literature was produced by leading Fathers who defamed the Jews as a people and emptied their religious beliefs and practices of any historical value. Two major casualties of the anti-Jews campaign were Sabbath and Passover. The Sabbath was changed to Sunday and Passover was transferred to Easter-Sunday.

Scholars usually recognize the anti-Judaic motivation for the repudiation of the Jewish reckoning of Passover and adoption of Easter-Sunday instead. Joachim Jeremias attributes such a development to "the inclination to break away from Judaism."34 In a similar vein, J. B. Lightfoot explains that Rome and Alexandria adopted Easter-Sunday to avoid "even the semblance of Judaism."

Nothing in Common with the Jews. Perhaps the most explicit and forceful expression of anti-Judaism for the repudiation of the traditional Passover dating is found in the letter that Emperor Constantine formulated at the Council of Nicea in A. D. 325. In desiring to establish a religion completely free from any Jewish influence, the emperor wrote regarding Passover: "It appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. . . . Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd: for we have received from our Savior a different way. . . . Strive and pray continually that the purity of your soul may not seem in anything to be sullied by fellowship with the custom of these most wicked men. . . . All should unite in desiring that which sound reason appears to demand, avoiding all participation in the perjured conduct of the Jews."

The Council of Nicea (A. D. 325) put an end to the controversy over the date of Passover by decreeing that it should be celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring. To ensure that Easter-Sunday would never be celebrated at the same time as the Jewish Passover, the council decreed that if the 14th of Nisan fell on a Sunday, then Easter was to be celebrated on the following Sunday.

Nicea represents the culmination of the Passover controversy initiated two centuries earlier and motivated by strong anti-Judaic feelings. Unfortunately, the controversy was "settled" at Nicea, not Biblically but politically. It was settled by suppressing the traditional observance of Passover and by adopting instead Easter Sunday as championed by the church of Rome.

"As far as Christian Passover is concerned," write Donna and Mal Broadhurst, "the beginning of the Dark Ages can be set at 325 A. D. with the Council of Nicea. Along with turning their back on Jews, the Gentiles turned their back on the Jewish Scripture. They disallowed Jewish input to their faith, life-style, and worship. They became persecutors of the Jews. In place of the Exodus Passover story to inspire a sense of justice and freedom for all men, the Gentile church had the words and example of power-hungry leaders who taught oppression. It took a major reformation centuries later to begin to undo the horror and destruction the church brought on the world when the Gentiles at Nicea formally adopted the policy of having 'nothing in common with the Jews.'"

Easter Sunday and Pagan Symbolism. The change from the primitive observance of Passover to that of Easter-Sunday was not only a change of dates from Nisan 14 to the following Sunday, but also a change of meaning and experience. The primitive Christian Passover followed in many ways the Jewish Passover. Both celebrated the drama of redemption, though the focus of the Christian Passover was not the deliverance of God's people from Egyptian bondage, but their deliverance from the bondage of sin through the sacrifice of the true Paschal Lamb.

The waning influence of Jewish Christians and the growing influence of Gentile Christians led not only to the adoption of a new date, Easter-Sunday, in order to have "nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd," but also to the acceptance of pagan speculations and fertility myths, which are foreign to the Biblical meaning of Passover.

In his scholarly book The Bible and Liturgy,the renowned Jesuit scholar Jean Daniélou examines in chapter 17 the meaning of "Easter" in the thought of the Fathers (a term used to refer to church leaders of the first five centuries). What is conspicuous in his survey is the attempt of Gentile church leaders to explain the meaning of Easter on the basis of philosophical speculations about cosmic mythologies, rather than on the basis of the Biblical Passover story.
One could wish that the Fathers would have used their rational skills to help Christians understand and accept more fully the drama of redemption typified by the substitutionary sacrifice of the paschal lamb. Unfortunately, they failed to do so because their understanding of redemption was conditioned by their philosophical (gnostic) thinking, which viewed salvation more as metaphysical deification through special knowledge than a moral transformation through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

In the mysterious cosmic speculations of the Fathers, we find, as Jean Daniélou himself acknowledges, "the incorporation into the Christian mystery of a whole solar mythology. The conflict of light with darkness is expressed by the myth of Ormuzd and Ahriman, of Apollo and Poseidon. But Christ is the sun of the new creation. He rose at the time of the Incarnation: His name is Orient, the Dawn in the East, He attacked the power of darkness, and, on the day of His Resurrection, He completely scattered the darkness of death and of sin. So Christianity disengages the cosmic symbols from the pagan myths . . . and incorporates them as figures of the mysteries of truth. This line of thought shows that we are in the fourth century, at the time of the decline of paganism, when Christianity began to cloth itself in its garments."

Eastre: Anglo-Saxon Spring Goddess. The process which led Christianity to clothe itself in the garments of paganism began when Gentile Christians gained control of the Church, and it continued during the Middle Ages when hordes of Barbarians entered the Church with their superstitious beliefs.

Passover was renamed "Easter," which derives from Eostre, Eastur, Ostara, Ostar, terms used by the Norsemen (ancient Scandinavians) to refer to the season of the rising sun. According to Bede (ca. A. D. 673-735), the "Father of English History," the word "Easter" is derived from Eastre, an Anglo-Saxon spring goddess to whom sacrifices were offered at the vernal equinox (March 21). "This pagan festival probably gave way to the Christian celebration of the resurrection."
Donna and Mal Broadhurst point out, "It is probable that Eostra/Ostara is the Anglo-Saxon version of Ishtar, the Sumerian goddess of love and war who in Canaan evolved into a moon goddess and wife of Baal. According to Sumerian lore, Ishtar was the wife of the Summerian god, Tammuz. Both are spoken of in the Bible–Tammuz in Ezekiel 8:14 and Ishtar, called Ashtoreth and Queen of Heaven, in Judges 2:13, Judges 10:6, Jeremiah 44:17, and elsewhere.

"When Tammuz died, Ishtar followed him to the underworld, leaving the earth deprived of its fertility. She and Tammuz were rescued from death when the Queen of the Dead allowed a heavenly messenger to sprinkle them with the water of life. This allowed them to return to the light of the sun for six months of each year. For the other six they had to return to the land of death.

"The worship of Ishtar as a nature goddess had spread throughout the ancient world. In Phoenicia and Syria her name had become Astarte. Her husband earlier called Baal, and known as Tammuz farther east, became Adon and Adonai in Phoenicia and Syria. In Greece, Ishtar and Tammuz became Aphrodide and Adonis; in Asia Minor they became Cybele and Attis. Diana of the Ephesians (Acts 19:27) probably traces to Ishtar."

What makes these cults the forerunners of Easter is the fact that most of them had their annual festival at the vernal equinox, the Easter season, during which they celebrated the cycle of death and resurrection. In his book Easter: Its Story and Meaning, Alan W. Watts discusses the relationship of these pagan cults to Easter and notes that "their universal theme–the drama of death and resurrection–makes them the forerunners of the Christian Easter and thus the first 'Easter services.' As we go on to describe the Christian observance of Easter we shall see how many of its customs and ceremonies resemble these former rites."

[Wags]

Lent from Pagan Cults. One example of the former rites is the fast of Lent, which begins forty days before Easter. This practice most likely derives from the fast practiced among various ancients cults. A Lent of forty days was observed by the worshippers of the Babylonian Ishtar and by the worshippers of the great Egyptian mediatorial god Adonis or Osiris. The rape of the goddess Proserpine also was commemorated among the Romans by forty nights of wailing. Among the pagans, this Lent period seems to have been an indispensable preliminary to the great annual (usually spring) festivals commemorating the death and resurrection of their gods.

Lent, with the preceding revelries of carnival, was entirely unknown in the earliest Christian Passover celebration. Christians fasted, as we have noted, the night of Passover until dawn, when they broke their fast with the Lord's Supper, which commemorated Jesus' expiatory suffering and death. The extension of the fast to forty days was apparently borrowed from pagan spring festivals.

Easter Bunny and Eggs. Pagan influence can also be seen in the replacement of the Passover symbolism of the lamb with that of the Easter hare. The Easter hare was once a bird which the goddess Eostre changed into a four-footed creature. The hare, or rabbit, became a symbol of fertility, presumably because rabbits are notably prolific. The hare laid eggs which became the symbol of the abundant new life of spring. Thus, the Easter egg is the production not of some mystical bird but of a rabbit or hare.

The origin of the Easter egg is traced back to the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Babylon, Phoenicia, and Greece, where the universe is said to have been born from a mighty world egg. "The ancient peoples of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, and China exchanged eggs at their spring fertility festivals. In Babylonia, eggs were presented to the goddess of fertility, Astarte (Eostre)."

Hyginus, the Egyptian historian who was the curator of the Palatine library in Rome at the time of Augustus, wrote: "An egg of wondrous size is said to have fallen from heaven into the river Euphrates. The fishes rolled it to the bank, where the doves having settled upon it, and hatched it, out came Venus, who afterwards was called the Syrian Goddess [that is, Astarte]." The egg became one of the chief symbols of Venus or Astarte. In Cyprus, one of the chief centers of the worship of Venus, an egg of a wondrous size was represented on a grand scale before her Temple.

Christians adopted eggs for their Easter celebration because the egg was a popular pagan symbol of death and life. It was a symbol of death because the shell is like a tomb that imprisons the life-germ inside. It was a symbol of life insofar as it contains the source of a new creature.

Innumerable European folk customs are found in connection with Easter eggs. Eggs were elaborately painted with symbols, often Roman crosses and swastikas. Egg hunting in gardens was a favorite Easter game for children. In my country, Italy, eggs are blessed by the priest on Easter-Sunday with holy water when he goes from home to home. The "blessed" Easter eggs are then sold on the market with the promise of miraculous power, very much as sacrificial meat was sold on the market of ancient Rome (1 Cor 8:1-6). With the advent of the industrial era, Easter eggs were transformed into chocolate and sugar, wrapped in tin foil, or even trimmed with real gold and jewels, as was the custom among the wealthy in czarist Russia.
"Eggs laid on Good Friday are credited with miraculous powers. There is the belief that if such an egg is kept for a hundred years its yolk will turn into a diamond, or that if it is cooked on Easter Sunday it will work as a powerful amulet against sudden death or as a charm for fruitful trees and crops."

Reformers and Easter. The above survey of some of the pagan practices and superstitions associated with Easter helps us understand why the Reformers were generally opposed to the observance of Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas. "Calvin considered the annual church feast of Easter so paganized that at one point he did not observe it." Though Calvin tolerated the observance of Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas, he viewed their institution as a susperstition, because God alone can institute a festival. Luther shared the same view. In his Treatise on Good Works, he wrote: "And would to God that in Christendom there were no holy days except Sunday." Martin Bucer also opposed the many holy days because they often had pagan origin and appeared to be consecrated to the devil rather than to the Lord.

The Reformers viewed the multitude of saints' days and Marian feasts instituted by the Catholic Church as indicative of the apostasy into which the church had fallen. To rid the church of all the pagan superstitions which had become part of the popular piety, the Reformers did away with most of the annual holy days, retaining only Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas. Even these were tolerated rather than promoted.

The position of Luther was based not only on his reaction against the superstitious observance of the host of holy days established by the Catholic Church, but also on his radical distinction between the Old and New Testaments. In the Large Catechism (1529), Luther explains that the holy days are "altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, and places, and now have been made free through Christ."
Luther chose to retain Sunday, not as a Biblical institution but as a convenient day "ordained by the church for the sake of the imperfect laity and the working class," who need "at least one day in the week . . . to rest and . . . to attend divine service." It is regrettable that in his efforts to cleanse the church from pagan superstitions and legalistic tendencies, Luther rejected even those Old Testament institutions which can help believers understand and experience the very "righteousness by faith" which he passionately taught.

Calvin rejected Luther's radical distinction between the Old and New Testaments, emphasizing instead the basic unity between the two. For Calvin, as Winton Solberg explains, "the scheme of redemption unfolds in one unbroken sequence throughout the two Testaments. One covenant unites the people of God; it varies only in the mode of administration, not in substance. The Christian Church rather than the Jewish Nation is the society adopted by the Lord, and both were federally connected with him by the same law and doctrine. Using the same exegetical method as that of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Calvin Christianized the Old and Judaized the New Testament in order to make them appear as one unified covenant."

Calvin attached great spiritual importance to Passover, which he saw as a monument of the Israelites' deliverance from Egypt as well as a symbol of the Christian deliverance from sin. He believed that though Passover was abolished as a ceremony, it should still be observed spiritually in order to be reminded constantly of the incomparable power and mercy of God.

The Puritans and Easter. The moderate attitude of the Reformers became radicalized by the Puritans, who swept away all religious holy days except Sunday. In England, the Puritan Parliament struck Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost from their calendar. In America also, the Puritans did not celebrate these feasts, which they regarded as part of the apostate church they had left behind in the old world. J. P. Walsh notes: "The Puritans rested on the Sabbath in order to keep it holy; they worked on December 25 in order to strip it of its sanctity."

The Puritans were familiar with the Exodus story, which they often quoted and applied to their own political situation. Like the Israelites, they believed they had been delivered by God's hand from the oppression of the established church. They found the meaning of Passover in their sufferings and deliverance. They rejected the paganized Easter but made no effort to restore the Biblical observance of Passover. Their influence was so strong that hardly anyone in colonial America celebrated Easter or Christmas. The exceptions were places such as Louisiana and Maryland which had been settled by Catholics.
The situation changed as new waves of Catholic immigrants brought to America their Easter customs, which were soon adopted by the American people. Mardi Gras, a carnival period climaxing on Shrove Tuesday before Lent, became popular in certain cities. The Easter parade, Easter bonnets, chocolate eggs, Easter baskets, and cute Easter bunnies, have all become part of the American Easter tradition. Still, some American churches with a strong Biblical commitment do not participate in the Easter customs with origins from pagan fertility cults.

Conclusion. The earliest Passover documents clearly show that Christians observed Passover as their annual commemoration of the suffering and death of Christ. They engaged in prayer, singing, reading of Scripture, and exhortations until dawn, when they broke their fast by partaking of the Lord's Supper and an agape meal.

As Gentile Christians gained control of the church, they adopted and promoted Easter Sunday instead of the traditional Passover date. The change was influenced by the repressive policies adopted by Roman emperors against the Jewish people and religion, as well as by the defamatory campaign waged by Jews against Christians. As a result, the Biblical Passover themes were gradually replaced by pagan symbols and myths, which became part of the Easter celebration. In time, Easter became associated with numerous pagan practices and superstitions which are foreign to the redemptive meaning and experience of the Biblical Passover.

[visionary]

Most Christians are well aware that Dec. 25 is likely not the day of Jesus birth, but to me that doesn't matter. Its the day we have chosen to celebrate His birth and thank God for keeping His promise of a Savior.
The Lord said His Ways are not your ways... We are to learn His ways... then it will matter to you just as it matters to Him.
As for your second link, I don't understand what it has to do with Jesus resurrection. :) First fruits comes in the spring the day after the first weekly Sabbath after the Passover. (Leviticus 23.9-14). The day after the first weekly Sabbath following Passover is also known as the Wave Sheaf. Yeshua was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits. This particular year, the Passover was on Thursday and Yeshua was in the grave for the three days and three nights just as He said He would be.

Matthew 12:4 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.It was a spring harvest festival for the people of the land. The deadness of winter is past and the earth is once again putting forth new leaves and blooming. Since this was the beginning of the barley season, the Jews were expected to bring some sheaves of the green barley to the Temple as an offering and in anticipation of a bountiful harvest that fall. Since Yeshua raises people instead of plants, His offering of first fruits to the Father was comprised of resurrected saints as seen in

Matthew 17:52-53.The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Yeshua' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. This offering was the fulfillment of the festival, they were the first fruits of the bountiful harvest to come.

Rev. 1:5 And from Yeshua Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Is He the first begotten of physical death?

Acts 26:22-23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.and that which was syumbolic in the wave sheaf/first fruits became reality in Yesha1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in (same word as by the spirit) the flesh, but quickened by the SpiritWhat a glorious awakening, to know that there is life after death and it is found in the resurrection.
Eph. 2:4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Yeshua:

[HaReb]

Thank you folk for answering the Easter/Christmas question which was probably addressed to my earlier post. Yochanan, of course speaks of a special Shabbat which must have been, by definition, between Sunday and Thursday, thereby showing man-made Easter as being a bit wrong, as is Christmas, as already explained quite adequately by others.

[Tishri1]

Imagine that ABBA had a special time set apart to meet with his Children and to set in motion events in history like markers in time....why would we need to look for or invent a different day when He had the days chosen already?..All the events concerning Yeshua's first and second coming were hand picked by ABBA and set as markers in History..... and He has performed all His prophetic acts to date on those markers , even Yeshua's Birth.....why not celebrate those days? In fact the more you study those days, the more meaningful Yeshuas first and second comings are.....Of course my favorite is the one that happens on the first of Tishri (Jim;))

[HaReb]

Yes, Tishri1, what G_d has set out, whether it be the boundaries of Eretz Y'isra'el or the days on which Y'shua HaMashiach was to be born, to die and rise again, have been engraved in the history of the world and carved into the very bedrock of this earth. No matter what man may say or do, or what wars he may start, man cannot erase what G_d has caused to be done, though Hasatan tries hard: see 'Isaiah' 10:12ff.

I wish He had been born on Tevet 21!

Blessings.

[Jim47]

Imagine that ABBA had a special time set apart to meet with his Children and to set in motion events in history like markers in time....why would we need to look for or invent a different day when He had the days chosen already?..All the events concerning Yeshua's first and second coming were hand picked by ABBA and set as markers in History..... and He has performed all His prophetic acts to date on those markers , even Yeshua's Birth.....why not celebrate those days? In fact the more you study those days, the more meaningful Yeshuas first and second comings are.....Of course my favorite is the one that happens on the first of Tishri (Jim;))



My brain is in slow motion today :sleep: as I was up most of the night, so tell me Tishri just what are you saying above???? To my knowledge no one has ever figured out the exact day of Jesus birth, am I wrong?

I need to wait a few days before I resume study on your name, but its pretty cool what I've found so far. :)

[HaReb]

Hi Jim47,
I'm not sure anyone is saying that we know the exact dates but we can certainly do much better than 25th December and Easter! Everyone knows Christmas was not at Christmas! It was, more likely, Sept. / October.

Just as Christmas was for the Jews - and not the whole world - see Sha'ul in Romans 1 & 2 - first to the Jews, then to the gentiles... The Goyim get their 'Christmas' at Epiphany when the men arrived a Y'shua's mummy's and daddy's house to give him gifts and he receives them.

We know Y'shua didn't die on a Friday because Yochanan tells us so. He refers to a special sabbath - NOT Friday or Saturday, therefore.

So let's get real and tell the world we've got it wrong and make a decent attempt to get it right according to the best we can work out from Scripture. Why keep covering up the lies? The dates we settle on may not be the exact dates but a least they will be much nearer than the purely arbitary dates we now have.

If you want to live a known lie, that's fine, but tell me why you would want to?

Blessings

[Tishri1]

we can logically get Sukkot for his birth, and the first night of Sukkot too as they were just arriving in Town and would not have arrived late since they were a devote couple....I'll go look for a link to explain it.....it's pretty clear when you do the math:wave:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm (http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/sukkoth.htm)

part of a thread
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=27297614&postcount=24

[joppajava]

Everybody knows that Jesus was not born on December 25th this was/is actually "the feast of Sol Invictus" unconquered sun, a pagan holiday that is also the birthday of many pagan god's.
My husband and I have done a great study on the birth of Jesus (it's based on Zechariahs order of priests and following the timeline from there) If this study is correct it would place Messiah's birth during the Feast of Tabernacles which makes alot of sence since it's about God dwelling with His people also it's about the same time of the year that most scholars will agree that he was actually born. We have been so convinced that God has established His holy days for so many reasons that we could never go back to celebrating the traditional christian holidays.