I think I felt a bad presence at a youth group..

[Josh3456]

Just thought I would share with you guys. A little over a week ago, I attended a youth group. When we were worshiping I could feel a presense (Least I think I did)
This was really the first time I actrully worshiped with my heart (I think). Anyway's I could feel someone walking around me in a cirlce. It was like a perfect circle. I thought it was god or an angel at first. But then it came by my face and it looked like it sneered or something. And then it walked away. Then after the youth group, some of the youth group people and I went to a resturant. I felt very happy, and calm.
Thats about it. Before I worshiped to god that night, I kept on thinking in my head I would finnally get rid of that demon. Anyways, I think he came back. Because I did some bad things again (nothing illegal) i'm trying to stay away from bad music right now. Key word TRYING.
Thanks for listening to my story.

Ps.. I think 2 days after this event, I lost alot of my emotions. Where it was hard to feel anger, grief and ect. Happeniess was still there. Anyone think they could answer this? I have some deep depression issues though. Might be that.

[ivory]

Just thought I would share with you guys. A little over a week ago, I attended a youth group. When we were worshiping I could feel a presense (Least I think I did)
This was really the first time I actrully worshiped with my heart (I think). Anyway's I could feel someone walking around me in a cirlce. It was like a perfect circle. I thought it was god or an angel at first. But then it came by my face and it looked like it sneered or something. And then it walked away. Then after the youth group, some of the youth group people and I went to a resturant. I felt very happy, and calm.
Thats about it. Before I worshiped to god that night, I kept on thinking in my head I would finnally get rid of that demon. Anyways, I think he came back. Because I did some bad things again (nothing illegal) i'm trying to stay away from bad music right now. Key word TRYING.
Thanks for listening to my story.

Ps.. I think 2 days after this event, I lost alot of my emotions. Where it was hard to feel anger, grief and ect. Happeniess was still there. Anyone think they could answer this? I have some deep depression issues though. Might be that.
Satan and his devils will try to do anything in their powers to stop true worship, all you do is, rebuke him and keep worshipping. (smile)

[Josh3456]

Satan and his devils will try to do anything in their powers to stop true worship, all you do is, rebuke him and keep worshipping. (smile)
Thanks, yeah, IDK if he was stoping true worship. But well its hard for me to worship alot. I mean I get angry at other christians during worship alot. I guess they are doing that, maybe:O

[gier12]

...seems like your having a hard time fully commiting to God, I know I had a similar thing happen to me as well except it was more in my stomach like a sick feeling. I couldn't give up old things that I did with my friends and at the time I felt like I was devoted, but after I kept getting this feeling and I think it was God trying to get me to realize how much farther I had to go in my faith. It could be different for you I don't know, but it seems like someone is trying to tell you something.

[Zecryphon]

"A little over a week ago, I attended a youth group."

Kewl. I used to be an adult volunteer in my former church's youth group.

"When we were worshiping I could feel a presense (Least I think I did)
This was really the first time I actrully worshiped with my heart (I think). Anyway's I could feel someone walking around me in a cirlce. It was like a perfect circle. I thought it was god or an angel at first. But then it came by my face and it looked like it sneered or something."

You actually saw it? I thought you said you felt it.

"And then it walked away. Then after the youth group, some of the youth group people and I went to a resturant. I felt very happy, and calm."

Weird, that a demon would enter a church but not a restaurant.

"Thats about it. Before I worshiped to god that night, I kept on thinking in my head I would finnally get rid of that demon. Anyways, I think he came back. Because I did some bad things again (nothing illegal) i'm trying to stay away from bad music right now."

What is "bad" music for you. Right now I'm listening to Judas Priest. Would they be bad?

"Key word TRYING."

That's certainly good, but allow the Holy Spirit to work in your life too. We have to surrender completely to God and submit fully. With His help, you will overcome whatever problem you're having.

"Ps.. I think 2 days after this event, I lost alot of my emotions. Where it was hard to feel anger, grief and ect. Happeniess was still there. Anyone think they could answer this? I have some deep depression issues though. Might be that."

It could be your depression. I would say you're experiencing what St. John of the Cross wrote about in his poem, the Dark Night of the Soul. But you said you experienced happiness. When you're going through the Dark Night, you experience nothing. You feel dead and like you are in a void. So I don't know if what you're going through is a spiritual attack of some kind or a mental disorder like depression. I have depression too, and I know how it can suck the life out of you. Are you on any anti-depressants?

[gier12]

Kewl. I used to be an adult volunteer in my former church's youth group.

...you know I don't know you and I don't try and judge, but the way you ripped his post to pieces is kinda lame. its kinda good your a former volenteer. he was trying to explain what was going on. maybe he doesn't fully understand it, things can be confusing. but you ripping up what he's got to say... yeah im sure that helped (yes that was sarcasm).

[tapero]

Just thought I would share with you guys. A little over a week ago, I attended a youth group. When we were worshiping I could feel a presense (Least I think I did)
This was really the first time I actrully worshiped with my heart (I think). Anyway's I could feel someone walking around me in a cirlce. It was like a perfect circle. I thought it was god or an angel at first. But then it came by my face and it looked like it sneered or something. And then it walked away. Then after the youth group, some of the youth group people and I went to a resturant. I felt very happy, and calm.
Thats about it. Before I worshiped to god that night, I kept on thinking in my head I would finnally get rid of that demon. Anyways, I think he came back. Because I did some bad things again (nothing illegal) i'm trying to stay away from bad music right now. Key word TRYING.
Thanks for listening to my story.

Ps.. I think 2 days after this event, I lost alot of my emotions. Where it was hard to feel anger, grief and ect. Happeniess was still there. Anyone think they could answer this? I have some deep depression issues though. Might be that.

Hi, I remember when I became a Christian, I was sitting in the pew at church and felt like there was a hanging blade over my neck. I even looked up (we were praying) to see if something was there. That's the only time I had such an experience. It's not because you are doing bad things that we are attacked.

It is written:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.


Also I have noticed when depressed that I sense things that I don't like to sense. I pray through these and ask God to take them away.

God bless you brother.

I wasn't clear if you had a specific question or not, so just replied with above. Tapero

[tapero]

...seems like your having a hard time fully commiting to God, I know I had a similar thing happen to me as well except it was more in my stomach like a sick feeling. I couldn't give up old things that I did with my friends and at the time I felt like I was devoted, but after I kept getting this feeling and I think it was God trying to get me to realize how much farther I had to go in my faith. It could be different for you I don't know, but it seems like someone is trying to tell you something.

Hi, In my previous post I put the scripture that speaks of our battle. A mature Christian can experience these same things. Why would demons trouble us if we were doing something sinful. They would be gleeful. God does not punish us, and send demons to taunt us if we sin. He corrects us gently, as a loving father would do. Nothing to be afraid of.

I don't think anything is trying to tell him something. It is the spiritual battle we are in.
God bless you, Tapero

[Nadiine]

Thanks, yeah, IDK if he was stoping true worship. But well its hard for me to worship alot. I mean I get angry at other christians during worship alot. I guess they are doing that, maybe:O

Galations 5 is imperative for a Christian to read & understand.
If your mind is focused on being angry at other Christians DURING worship, then you aren't truly worshipping God at that moment.

Worship of God is in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. Jesus also said:
Mt. 5-
23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

We have to get rid of all this baggage that is clouding up & stunting our close relationship w/ God. Then we wonder why we don't have victory in our Christian walk. :doh: (we all have some).

Galations 5:
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want

The side we FEED the most, is the side that will gain most strength.
Feed the flesh, and watch your Christian life weaken & suffer. Feed the Spirit (obeying God, seeking Him, being in close relationship, serving) and watch the Flesh die out & weaken.

Whichever side we feed is the side that gains strength.

[Josh3456]

Yeah, I guess I did not explain it well enough. But it wasn't an attack from a demon. It was just simply, a demon walking away. Like he gave up or something at that moment. It was a postive thing for me. Sorry that I have bad grammar. I'll try to correct it. I didn't know that felt a presence was different. I couldn't really see the demon. I think I could see him in a really distorted view. But I think that experience was good, because the demon just walked away. The night it happend was a special night. I think I was truely worshiping then.

[gier12]

I don't think anything is trying to tell him something. It is the spiritual battle we are in. So maybe this sick feeling I was getting could just be my own spiritual battle? I guess I never looked at it like that.

[tapero]

Yeah, I guess I did not explain it well enough. But it wasn't an attack from a demon. It was just simply, a demon walking away. Like he gave up or something at that moment. It was a postive thing for me. Sorry that I have bad grammar. I'll try to correct it. I didn't know that felt a presence was different. I couldn't really see the demon. I think I could see him in a really distorted view. But I think that experience was good, because the demon just walked away. The night it happend was a special night. I think I was truely worshiping then.

Dear Josh,
That is awesome!
Tapero

[Josh3456]

So maybe this sick feeling I was getting could just be my own spiritual battle? I guess I never looked at it like that.

Yeah! I get that feeling alot too. Just try to be more pure. When I do that, I get a watery feeling. Maybe it symbolizes getting cleaned?

[Zecryphon]

...you know I don't know you and I don't try and judge, but the way you ripped his post to pieces is kinda lame. its kinda good your a former volenteer. he was trying to explain what was going on. maybe he doesn't fully understand it, things can be confusing. but you ripping up what he's got to say... yeah im sure that helped (yes that was sarcasm).
Show me where I "ripped it up" as you say. What I did is a line by line breakdown, it's a common way to answer posts online. I answered his post the way I answer all posts. I'm direct and to the point and give my observations and opinions about what I read and that's what I've done here. I do find it interesting that a demon entered a church, but not a restaurant. Churches are sacred ground and supposedly off limits to demons. I also gave him a resource he can check out, called Dark Night of the Soul, by St. John of the Cross, to see if he is experiencing the Dark Night of the Soul. I've been through it once, and it's not something I would wish on my worst adversary. I also sympathized with him and his depression because I have it too. What have you done? You've been sarcastic, judgemental and arrogant. And to say that it's a good thing I'm not a volunteer anymore? What are you basing that on? The fact that you don't like my posting style? Good standard you've got there. You're right you don't know me and I don't know you, but I don't go around judging how other people respond to posts, you do. That's your prerogative apparently. And you seem perfectly fine in judging my response as being lame, even though you claim you do not judge, also interesting. If the way I respond to posts is "lame" to you as you so lovingly put it, put me on ignore or skip my posts. You obviously can't handle them.

[Josh3456]

Show me where I "ripped it up" as you say. What I did is a line by line breakdown, it's a common way to answer posts online. I answered his post the way I answer all posts. I'm direct and to the point and give my observations and opinions about what I read. You're right you don't know me and I don't know you, but I don't go around judging how other people respond to posts, you do. That's your perogative apparently. And you seem perfectly fine in judging my response as being lame, even though you claim you do not judge, ineteresting. If the way I respond to posts is "lame" to you as you so lovingly put it, put me on ignore or skip my posts. You obviously can't handle them.
Maybe we can just forget this whole thing :). I know i'm horrible at writing. (Yet I get good grades at school for writing papers :D, but I try harder there)

[Zecryphon]

Maybe we can just forget this whole thing :). I know i'm horrible at writing. (Yet I get good grades at school for writing papers :D, but I try harder there)
Josh, do you have a problem with what I wrote to you and how I wrote it or how I said it? I think not, because you would have said something to me if you did, either in this forum or in a private message. The person who has a problem with what I wrote might have a problem with alot of people who aren't just gushing love and good happy feelings in every single line of their posts. There are people like that, nothing wrong with being that way, but when you project your own bias for what you like to see in a post upon other people, then you have a problem. Right now she is the only one with a problem, I responded to her criticisms of me and have moved on. People like the person who responded to my posting style, aren't worth the energy it will eventually take to explain to them why they're wrong in their assessment.

[Nadiine]

Josh, do you have a problem with what I wrote to you and how I wrote it or how I said it? I think not, because you would have said something to me if you did, either in this forum or in a private message. The person who has a problem with what I wrote might have a problem with alot of people who aren't just gushing love and good happy feelings in every single line of their posts. There are people like that, nothing wrong with being that way, but when you project your own bias for what you like to see in a post upon other people, then you have a problem. Right now she is the only one with a problem, I responded to her criticisms of me and have moved on. People like the person who responded to my posting style, aren't worth the energy it will eventually take to explain to them why they're wrong in their assessment.

I've run into a similar problem with a few people at CF.
I'm not that type of person who's lovey dovey either. I mean, I love people, and I'm passionate, I'm just not all slathery on people. lol

People mistake blunt or short answers as if I'm being nasty, and I'm not. It's also hard for me to keep typing out all the little ways to gently curb & soften everything so people think I'm being fluffy - my hands get tired. lol :P

I have a direct, honest approach to reply directly & try to stay on point. More analytical.
Sometimes I blow it & get frustrated, but usually I don't.

I agree, people sometimes project their biases - so if you aren't pouring syrup on people, you're automatically mean & nasty. :sigh:

[Zecryphon]

I've run into a similar problem with a few people at CF.
I'm not that type of person who's lovey dovey either. I mean, I love people, and I'm passionate, I'm just not all slathery on people. lol

People mistake blunt or short answers as if I'm being nasty, and I'm not. It's also hard for me to keep typing out all the little ways to gently curb & soften everything so people think I'm being fluffy - my hands get tired. lol :P

I have a direct, honest approach to reply directly & try to stay on point. More analytical.
Sometimes I blow it & get frustrated, but usually I don't.

I agree, people sometimes project their biases - so if you aren't pouring syrup on people, you're automatically mean & nasty. :sigh:
Finally! Somebody who "gets" me! ;-)

[Athanasian Creed]

Just thought I would share with you guys. A little over a week ago, I attended a youth group. When we were worshiping I could feel a presense (Least I think I did)
This was really the first time I actrully worshiped with my heart (I think). Anyway's I could feel someone walking around me in a cirlce. It was like a perfect circle. I thought it was god or an angel at first. But then it came by my face and it looked like it sneered or something. And then it walked away. Then after the youth group, some of the youth group people and I went to a resturant. I felt very happy, and calm.
Thats about it. Before I worshiped to god that night, I kept on thinking in my head I would finnally get rid of that demon. Anyways, I think he came back. Because I did some bad things again (nothing illegal) i'm trying to stay away from bad music right now. Key word TRYING.
Thanks for listening to my story.

Ps.. I think 2 days after this event, I lost alot of my emotions. Where it was hard to feel anger, grief and ect. Happeniess was still there. Anyone think they could answer this? I have some deep depression issues though. Might be that.

The Word of God admonishes us to "submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you." Unfortunately, many Christians only quote the "resist the devil" part and either don't know the first part of the verse or fail to recognize that you can't do the second part (the resisting) before the first part (submitting to God)!

As far as the bad music is concerned, remember, "garbage in, garbage out." I would strongly suggest you not only read Philippians 4:8 but memorize it and make it your priority as far as not only what you listen to, but also what you allow yourself to watch, etc.

God will give you the strength to overcome your temptations - BUT you must first be submitted to Him!

Make your youth count for the cause of Christ - i was a Christian at your age and can honestly say that God used me to His glory in a mighty way because i was submitted and committed to Him above all! :thumbsup:




Ray :wave:

[linssue55]

Be careful, emotions can be very destructive to THINKING and applying the word. Emotions have their place, but we NEED to be very mature with maximum doctrine to know when emotion is good vs bad.






Emotion



1. The Word of God is the criterion of the Christian life.


2. Emotion is to be enjoyed, understood and evaluated, but this is impossible without the absolute criterion for the Christian way of life: The Word of God, Bible doctrine.


3. Emotion is not the criterion in the Christian way of life. The use of emotionalism is a substitute for ignorance of the Word of God. Use objectivity (Scriptural principles) in ascertaining the filling of the Holy Spirit. Don’t get subjective (emotional).


4. Emotion has a place in your life, emotion is the appreciator of the soul. Song of Solomon 1:7; 2 Peter 2:8; Luke 12:19.


5. When you are born-again this information is communicated into your soul. You may or may not have an emotion. Your emotion has nothing to do with the spiritual reality of your salvation. Emotionalism is soulish, human activity — unless controlled by the Holy Spirit.


6. When the human spirit sends doctrine to the emotions, the believer appreciates God. No doctrine and there is no appreciation of God.


7. Emotion is a response to something in the thought pattern, a result of what you think. When you think Bible doctrine you appreciate things on the basis of Bible doctrine.


8. Emotion (when it is not in its proper place) has an effect on the physical body, like psychosomatic illness.


9. When you refuse doctrine you create a vacuum wherein comes religion, emotionalism; and these emotions become involved and you make emotion your criterion. You then become one miserable person.


10. Some make emotion a false criteria of spirituality.


11. Everyone has emotions. Emotions are to enjoy things in life, such as people, a beautiful scene, a concert, football game, etc. But emotion has no place as a criterion, norm or standard for the Christian life. The criterion for the Christian life is the Word of God. When you have Bible doctrine you can even appreciate the details of life because they become points of doctrine.

[Doer]

I felt the same way. I came back from a 3 day retreat. When I returned to my bedroom, I felt like there was a demon sitting on my bed, and I could feel him telling me that He was gonna get me. I never felt like that before.

As soon as I walked in my room, I stopped dead in my tracks, the presence was strong.

Do they ever flee from you? I would think they would tempt you till the day you die.

[tapero]

I felt the same way. I came back from a 3 day retreat. When I returned to my bedroom, I felt like there was a demon sitting on my bed, and I could feel him telling me that He was gonna get me. I never felt like that before.

As soon as I walked in my room, I stopped dead in my tracks, the presence was strong.

Do they ever flee from you? I would think they would tempt you till the day you die.
Hi brother,
In my experience, you call on Jesus and ask Him to help you, ask him to protect you. I don't know much about the demonic, don't like to dwelve into it at all, rather dwell on Jesus, so I wouldn't think on things if you can help it, and as noted on the board it seems certain groups of peoples struggle with this a lot.

I personally believe it's because they dwell on it. That's not to say it isn't real, and doesn't happen, it's just that they are more focused on these things then they ought. God never said to dwell on evil. In my experience personally, no they will not always be around, don't dwell on them, and pray to Jesus for them to be gone. As i wrote earlier, in certain times during my mental illness I notice things that I believe is demonic and any Christian is subject to this harrassment I suppose, but I think asking Jesus to take them away, and keep praying that, I believe He does.

[pdfiddler]

Keep your focus on the Lord and His word, with all your heart and practice staying on that level and you will soon be shaking them off into the fire.

[pdfiddler]

gier12 - "More in my stomach like a sick feeling" Sometimes this can be a sign that a spirit of lust is trying to hit at you. The Holy Spirit could be showing you this .It comes through our spirit first, then soul (intellect and emotions) and then physical body in that order.

Zecryphon - "You actually saw it? I thought you said you felt it.
Yes both. Sometimes if you have been really tuned in to the Lord (like in worship or mediation in His word)when one comes along, you can feel there presence and also see them with a spiritual eye or like maybe a third eye where you can't see anything straight on, but with your minds eye, and it really is there.
" Weird that a demon would enter a church but not a restaurant" You don't know who was in that restaurant. It might have been the angel of the Lord standing at the door of that restaurant. Spirits or demons have to use the same physical access(as in doorways and windows or threshold) ,despite the popular belief that they walk through walls and such. Interesting stuff! :wave:

[tapero]

[quote=pdfiddler;30719899]gier12 - "More in my stomach like a sick feeling" Sometimes this can be a sign that a spirit of lust is trying to hit at you. The Holy Spirit could be showing you this .It comes through our spirit first, then soul (intellect and emotions) and then physical body in that order.

]

Hi Gier12, I just want to assure you that demons can not enter our body.

[pdfiddler]

Friend , who said that? Ok , the demon tries to activate and make us act on the lust that is in our adamic nature. Better ?

[pdfiddler]

Eve was tempted by the snake through her spirit,then intellect (and she reasoned),then she ate the apple.

[Zecryphon]

[quote=pdfiddler;30719899]gier12 - "More in my stomach like a sick feeling" Sometimes this can be a sign that a spirit of lust is trying to hit at you. The Holy Spirit could be showing you this .It comes through our spirit first, then soul (intellect and emotions) and then physical body in that order.

]

Hi Gier12, I just want to assure you that demons can not enter our body.
Tapero said: "Hi Gier12, I just want to assure you that demons can not enter our body."

They can't? Why not? And if they can't, what does that say about the Catholic rite of Exorcism?

[tapero]

[quote=tapero;30720162]
Tapero said: "Hi Gier12, I just want to assure you that demons can not enter our body."

They can't? Why not? And if they can't, what does that say about the Catholic rite of Exorcism?

I'm sorry, I said or should have said that demons can not enter a christians body.

I can't speak to what catholics do; it would be inappopriate of me to do so as I am not Catholic and would not want to speak a denomination.

I will discuss what I wrote, but not a denominations stances or beliefs.

Thanks,
tapero

[Doer]

You have to let the demon enter your body, if your a true Christian , you would choose not to let them enter. Therefore, Christians do not get possessed.

[TamaraLynne]

When Jesus stands at the door and knocks and we invite him in..............Now our body is occupied by Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is not any room for demons.

And if we follow Jesus through the bible and see that he tells demons to go and never come back.......and we allow him to work through us...........we have the authority to tell demons to go........and they see Jesus in you and they have to go.........because they(the demons) are afraid of God.......

Remember that if you ask in the name of Jesus........:)

Jesus abides in you ....and you also are in his presense.....and you have nothing to fear.

Love
Tam

[Nadiine]

I think Christians may be able to be possessed by demons.
I've seen plenty of conversions where the person accepts the Lord, and then has their demons cast out thru a deliverance minister.
(which can take days to fully accomplish it).

They're saved, but that didn't get rid of them yet. And the bible says that if you aren't first saved when demons are cast out, that the spirit will go get more demons stronger than itself to come back to posess them again, and they'll be worse off than before.
(mt. 12:29, 43-45)

Also, do a deep study of Ezekiel 8 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze008.html#9, inside God's inner temple. The people were worshipping false gods (worshipping the sun gods and weeping for Tammuz - tammuz is a demonic god who was supposed to be Nimrod reincarnated. See Gen. 10) INSIDE God's holy temple as well as other demonic practices; incl. the drawing of demonic figures on the walls. This glorified & invited demons inside God's very own inner courts.
Demon worship BRINGS demons right into the people and the place they're worshipping.

Q. if demons can inhabit the inside of God's temple, aren't WE God's temples?
1 Cor 3:16-17
Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy which temple you are.


I'm not so positive that Christians can't be possessed - but I do believe that it takes serious occult activity in order for that to occur (which would only relay that they're probably already in deep spiritual trouble). OR, they already had the demons prior to their salvation which need casting out.

I'm sure I'll alot of flack about this, but hopefully it will lead to something positive discussion.

[tapero]

Hi Nadiine, No flack here. How are you? Just a different opinion. I looked up the verses you cited, but don't see that they are believers.

You wote:

And the bible says that if you aren't first saved when demons are cast out, that the spirit will go get more demons stronger than itself to come back to posess them again, and they'll be worse off than before.

The verses that you quoted in Mattew do not say if you aren't first saved when demons are cast out...

Is there another verse that you are thinking of?

You wrote:


inside God's inner temple. The people were worshipping false gods (worshipping the sun gods and weeping for Tammuz - tammuz is a demonic god who was supposed to be Nimrod reincarnated. See Gen. 10) INSIDE God's holy temple as well as other demonic practices; incl. the drawing of demonic figures on the walls. This glorified & invited demons inside God's very own inner courts.
Demon worship BRINGS demons right into the people and the place they're worshipping.


I didn't look up this scripture but may need to after your rpely. In what I'm reading here, the people were worhshiping false gods. So they were not believers in God. Also, because this does refer to a physical temple, the temple, you can not say this is the same as our body. I don't know where you can say that the building is symbolic of the body. Though in many instances I think it is, but I'd have to think hard on that one.

Demons can be around us, but they can not indwell us. If we believe we are indwelled by God.

Blessings,
tapero


I think Christians may be able to be possessed by demons.
I've seen plenty of conversions where the person accepts the Lord, and then has their demons cast out thru a deliverance minister.
(which can take days to fully accomplish it).

They're saved, but that didn't get rid of them yet. And the bible says that if you aren't first saved when demons are cast out, that the spirit will go get more demons stronger than itself to come back to posess them again, and they'll be worse off than before.
(mt. 12:29, 43-45)

Also, do a deep study of Ezekiel 8 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze008.html#9, inside God's inner temple. The people were worshipping false gods (worshipping the sun gods and weeping for Tammuz - tammuz is a demonic god who was supposed to be Nimrod reincarnated. See Gen. 10) INSIDE God's holy temple as well as other demonic practices; incl. the drawing of demonic figures on the walls. This glorified & invited demons inside God's very own inner courts.
Demon worship BRINGS demons right into the people and the place they're worshipping.

Q. if demons can inhabit the inside of God's temple, aren't WE God's temples?
1 Cor 3:16-17
Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy which temple you are.


I'm not so positive that Christians can't be possessed - but I do believe that it takes serious occult activity in order for that to occur (which would only relay that they're probably already in deep spiritual trouble). OR, they already had the demons prior to their salvation which need casting out.

I'm sure I'll alot of flack about this, but hopefully it will lead to something positive discussion.

[Nadiine]

Hi Nadiine, No flack here. How are you? Just a different opinion. I looked up the verses you cited, but don't see that they are believers.

You wote:



The verses that you quoted in Mattew do not say if you aren't first saved when demons are cast out...

Is there another verse that you are thinking of?

You wrote:



I didn't look up this scripture but may need to after your rpely. In what I'm reading here, the people were worhshiping false gods. So they were not believers in God. Also, because this does refer to a physical temple, the temple, you can not say this is the same as our body. I don't know where you can say that the building is symbolic of the body. Though in many instances I think it is, but I'd have to think hard on that one.

Demons can be around us, but they can not indwell us. If we believe we are indwelled by God.


K, the verses from Mt. 12 are a basic principle of demonic activity.

The scriptures from Ezek. don't tell us if they are of God or not, the point was they were BRINGING DEMONS INTO GOD'S TEMPLE by worshipping them and drawing the demonic figures on the inside of the walls.

The issue was they were inside God's holy temple and it was abomination.
We are God's temple when He dwells in us. That's the correlation I was piecing together.
:angel:

All I can say is, we are not directly told in scripture that we cannot be - so we need to be careful what we do.
EITHER WAY.

[tapero]

K, the verses from Mt. 12 are a basic principle of demonic activity.

The scriptures from Ezek. don't tell us if they are of God or not, the point was they were BRINGING DEMONS INTO GOD'S TEMPLE by worshipping them and drawing the demonic figures on the inside of the walls.

I get you. Demons can be anywhere. Doesn't have to be a church necessarily. I just wanted to add that.

The issue was they were inside God's holy temple and it was abomination.
We are God's temple when He dwells in us. That's the correlation I was piecing together.
:angel:

There is no corelation that you can drew I think to the Temple of Israel, a physcial place, and our temple.

All I can say is, we are not directly told in scripture that we cannot be - so we need to be careful what we do.
EITHER WAY.

I know that satan entered Judas. We know that Judas did not have faith, a non believer.

I personally believe that those that dwell on these things, such as certain churhes do that they will reap a problem, but I see no evidence, and I think scripture would reveal it.

We do not need to fear. I can't think of what we have to be careful of, except as I said dwelling on things of evil. Gods word says to think of things that are noble...etc.

C.S. Lewis wrote Screwtape Letters and said, he had to cut the book short, for the problems were many for thinking and writing from a demons point of view was hard. I couldnt' read the book either hardly, because I had a hard time reversing my thoughts to understand the main character. It is not good to dwell on those things.

We are in a spiritual battle, and Ephesians gives us what to do, but it doesn't say to dwell on things either. It tells to put on the armor of God etc.

Just more of my thoughts.

I appreciate you writing back.

blessings,
tapero

[TamaraLynne]

I would have to agree with Nadine to a point.

The only reason I say to a point is because I'm not sure if I have been shown all there is to know on this subject.

Not everyone who calls themselves Christian have invited Jesus in.................it is because they didn't know this simple step. But they are still little children and they have a place in heaven. They are full of faith and they do call upon the name of Jesus and Jesus is there for them still............They just need to be fed and they need to grow.Jesus said these little children(beleivers) are for him and not against him.

I agree with Nadine about how demons are not cast out first out of these new beleivers...........I haven't seen in any church I have gone to cast out demons....

I did however have the pastor annoint my head with oil and ask for anything that would hinder my walk with Jesus be cast away................then at night when I also prayed that things be cast away that could hinder my walk with Jesus...........I felt things leaving my body. I did not know they were there..............

But you know..........................I'm still learning and listening.

I'm wondering why in all my years I have never seen demons cast away from anyone. And we need to be very careful about who demons are cast out of.........because they need to know about inviting Jesus in..........they need to know that Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit also fills us. And allowing Jesus to work through us forgiving others and being forgiven..............

But most of all for us to keep our eyes on Jesus everyday.......loving him and allowing him to love us. this is a part of repentance........because when we TURN to Jesus we turn our back on sin..........we don't want any part of sin in us.....because we want to please Jesus and the desire to know him is intensified and we just want him to consume us with him........we die to the flesh and are alive in the spirit.

[Zecryphon]

I know that satan entered Judas. We know that Judas did not have faith, a non believer.

I personally believe that those that dwell on these things, such as certain churhes do that they will reap a problem, but I see no evidence, and I think scripture would reveal it.

We do not need to fear. I can't think of what we have to be careful of, except as I said dwelling on things of evil. Gods word says to think of things that are noble...etc.

C.S. Lewis wrote Screwtape Letters and said, he had to cut the book short, for the problems were many for thinking and writing from a demons point of view was hard. I couldnt' read the book either hardly, because I had a hard time reversing my thoughts to understand the main character. It is not good to dwell on those things.

We are in a spiritual battle, and Ephesians gives us what to do, but it doesn't say to dwell on things either. It tells to put on the armor of God etc.

Just more of my thoughts.

I appreciate you writing back.

blessings,
tapero
"I know that satan entered Judas. We know that Judas did not have faith, a non believer."

How do we know that Judas did not have faith or was not a believer? Judas had some major concerns about Jesus as the Christ because of Jesus' lack of action concerning Israel's oppressors. One of the main reasons that Jews still do not accept Christ as their prophesied messiah is that Jesus did not overthrow Israel's oppressors. He was killed by them. I think Judas saw that Jesus was not going to be the military conqueror they were waiting for and questioned who Jesus really was. When he did this is when Satan was allowed to enter his body and make him do what he did.

However somebody needed to betray Jesus, that was part of the messianic prophecies. If not Judas, it would have been somebody else. Judas was probably the easiest to possess because of his doubts about Jesus. But Peter betrayed Jesus as well, by denying he even knew him three times. Which action is worse in your opinion? I know Peter repented when he realized he had fulfilled Jesus' own words, but I'm talking about the two actions as they are side by side. Which is worse ?Judas handing Jesus over to the authorities or Peter denying Jesus? The Bible is prety clear on what happens to those who deny Jesus or are ashamed of Him and His testimony.

Also, I don't think any of Jesus' followers truly believed Him to the be the messiah or that He would be raised from the dead three days later. If they did truly believe that, why were they so surprised to find that the tomb was empty? Had Jesus not risen from the dead, they would have most likely fallen away and gone back to Judaism as their chosen faith.

[tapero]

I would have to agree with Nadine to a point.

The only reason I say to a point is because I'm not sure if I have been shown all there is to know on this subject.


Not everyone who calls themselves Christian have invited Jesus in.................it is because they didn't know this simple step. But they are still little children and they have a place in heaven. They are full of faith and they do call upon the name of Jesus and Jesus is there for them still............They just need to be fed and they need to grow.Jesus said these little children(beleivers) are for him and not against him.


Hi, I appreciate your points. This one above that you made is not scriptural however. One is either a believer or He is not. We do go through the process of coming to God, but we either are born again or we are not.


I agree with Nadine about how demons are not cast out first out of these new beleivers...........I haven't seen in any church I have gone to cast out demons....


There was no scripture referenced for this. What I am saying is, demons do not need to be cast out of believers.

She wrote this:

They're saved, but that didn't get rid of them yet. And the bible says that if you aren't first saved when demons are cast out, that the spirit will go get more demons stronger than itself to come back to posess them again, and they'll be worse off than before.
(mt. 12:29, 43-45)

The bible does not say this that I've highlighted in blue. The only correct part is that they will come back and they'll be worse off than before. It is not in Matthew as shown.

Here is a portion of what the bible does say:

When an evil[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23533f)] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."




I did however have the pastor annoint my head with oil and ask for anything that would hinder my walk with Jesus be cast away................then at night when I also prayed that things be cast away that could hinder my walk with Jesus...........I felt things leaving my body. I did not know they were there..............

But you know..........................I'm still learning and listening.

I'm wondering why in all my years I have never seen demons cast away from anyone. And we need to be very careful about who demons are cast out of.........because they need to know about inviting Jesus in..........they need to know that Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit also fills us. And allowing Jesus to work through us forgiving others and being forgiven..............

But most of all for us to keep our eyes on Jesus everyday.......loving him and allowing him to love us. this is a part of repentance........because when we TURN to Jesus we turn our back on sin..........we don't want any part of sin in us.....because we want to please Jesus and the desire to know him is intensified and we just want him to consume us with him........we die to the flesh and are alive in the spirit.


This is awesome and I appreciate what you wrote.

In Christ,
Tapero

[Zecryphon]

TamaraLynne wrote: "Not everyone who calls themselves Christian have invited Jesus in.................it is because they didn't know this simple step."

Of course not everybody who calls themselves a Christian has "invited Jesus into their heart", and the reason for that is, because it's not Biblical. Ask Jesus into your heart? Which Bible verse is that? We are saved by repentence and faith in Jesus Christ. That's it. Plain and simple. This whole asking Jesus into your heart thing has only been around for the last 30 years or so. Churches used this line to get people to convert to Christianity when they were soft-selling the gospel.

They made it a "personal" relationship. They sold Jesus, not as your savior or redeemer, but as somebody who was just waiting for you to ask Him into your life, so He could be your best friend and give you everything you want. The problem with this type of message is that it punifies the gospel of Jesus and never addresses the main reason of why we ALL need a savior and what we are being saved from. We need a savior because we have fallen short of God's standard of perfection, we have sinned and we need Jesus to save us from that sin by repenting of our sins, turning from those sins and putting our faith and trust in Him. We are being saved from God's wrath which we have incurred by sinning against Him.

[Nadiine]

"I know that satan entered Judas. We know that Judas did not have faith, a non believer."

How do we know that Judas did not have faith or was not a believer? Judas had some major concerns about Jesus as the Christ because of Jesus' lack of action concerning Israel's oppressors. One of the main reasons that Jews still do not accept Christ as their prophesied messiah is that Jesus did not overthrow Israel's oppressors. He was killed by them. I think Judas saw that Jesus was not going to be the military conqueror they were waiting for and questioned who Jesus really was. When he did this is when Satan was allowed to enter his body and make him do what he did.

However somebody needed to betray Jesus, that was part of the messianic prophecies. If not Judas, it would have been somebody else. Judas was probably the easiest to possess because of his doubts about Jesus. But Peter betrayed Jesus as well, by denying he even knew him three times. Which action is worse in your opinion? I know Peter repented when he realized he had fulfilled Jesus' own words, but I'm talking about the two actions as they are side by side. Which is worse ?Judas handing Jesus over to the authorities or Peter denying Jesus? The Bible is prety clear on what happens to those who deny Jesus or are ashamed of Him and His testimony.

Also, I don't think any of Jesus' followers truly believed Him to the be the messiah or that He would be raised from the dead three days later. If they did truly believe that, why were they so surprised to find that the tomb was empty? Had Jesus not risen from the dead, they would have most likely fallen away and gone back to Judaism as their chosen faith.
This issue actually goes to the old heavily debated issue "OSAS".
IF we can lose salvation, then its very possible Judas was saved, but fell.

WHEN the fall occurs & when satan can enter is anyone's personal guess.
If you believe you can't lose your salvation, then you can say Judas never truly believed.
All we do know is, he was condemned ultimately by God.

& again, we can't use Ezek. or even the Jews who fell into idolatry to say NONE of them were actually believers in God.
The bible doesn't TELL US who was or wasn't. Just that they were doing this IN His temple.
We can't make the assessments either way.
BELIEVERS DO SIN & FALL. It's not entirely impossible that they fell into idolatry.

And I've heard self proclaimed Christians claiming that they have no problem reading horoscopes, etc. occult practice.

[tapero]

"I know that satan entered Judas. We know that Judas did not have faith, a non believer."




How do we know that Judas did not have faith or was not a believer? Judas had some major concerns about Jesus as the Christ because of Jesus' lack of action concerning Israel's oppressors. One of the main reasons that Jews still do not accept Christ as their prophesied messiah is that Jesus did not overthrow Israel's oppressors. He was killed by them. I think Judas saw that Jesus was not going to be the military conqueror they were waiting for and questioned who Jesus really was. When he did this is when Satan was allowed to enter his body and make him do what he did.


Good point. I guess it's up to each believer to understand whether Judas was a believer in God or not. Israel has Gods very presence and knew God existed, yet did not place their faith in Him.

However somebody needed to betray Jesus, that was part of the messianic prophecies. If not Judas, it would have been somebody else. Judas was probably the easiest to possess because of his doubts about Jesus. But Peter betrayed Jesus as well, by denying he even knew him three times. Which action is worse in your opinion? I know Peter repented when he realized he had fulfilled Jesus' own words, but I'm talking about the two actions as they are side by side. Which is worse ?Judas handing Jesus over to the authorities or Peter denying Jesus? The Bible is prety clear on what happens to those who deny Jesus or are ashamed of Him and His testimony.

We all go through times of doubt and shame in regards to Jesus. We also suffer from unbelief. There is nothing wrong with that; it is part of growing in Christ. As we are challenged and learn more about God we question things. Jesus said if we had the faith the size of a mustard seed we could move mountains. We have very little faith. Our faith grows as we grow in Christ hopefully. Not all will continue to grow; they will stop reading etc. but they are not lost. They're just not moving forward.

Also, I don't think any of Jesus' followers truly believed Him to the be the messiah or that He would be raised from the dead three days later. If they did truly believe that, why were they so surprised to find that the tomb was empty? Had Jesus not risen from the dead, they would have most likely fallen away and gone back to Judaism as their chosen faith.

I don't think they understood at first. They didn't understand His teaching that He was going away, and they all hid when re was crucified. They came to understand and began preaching the gospel.

Blessings,
Tapero

[tapero]

TamaraLynne wrote: "Not everyone who calls themselves Christian have invited Jesus in.................it is because they didn't know this simple step."

[QUOTE]
Of course not everybody who calls themselves a Christian has "invited Jesus into their heart", and the reason for that is, because it's not Biblical. Ask Jesus into your heart? Which Bible verse is that? We are saved by repentence and faith in Jesus Christ. That's it. Plain and simple. This whole asking Jesus into your heart thing has only been around for the last 30 years or so. Churches used this line to get people to convert to Christianity when they were soft-selling the gospel.


When I came to Christ, I committed my life to Him, and said I would die for Him, I was born again that day. I later confessed sin and turned from some of it, not all, because we never turn from all. Belief comes first.

Well, I shouldn't say that, because not all come in the same way. We all come different ways to Christ.

We need to accept the gift of God. There is nothing wrong with asking Jesus into our heart.


They made it a "personal" relationship. They sold Jesus, not as your savior or redeemer, but as somebody who was just waiting for you to ask Him into your life, so He could be your best friend and give you everything you want. The problem with this type of message is that it punifies the gospel of Jesus and never addresses the main reason of why we ALL need a savior and what we are being saved from. We need a savior because we have fallen short of God's standard of perfection, we have sinned and we need Jesus to save us from that sin by repenting of our sins, turning from those sins and putting our faith and trust in Him. We are being saved from God's wrath which we have incurred by sinning against Him.

I agree with what you wrote for the most part. Also, note that while we turn from sins, as we give them over to God, we will always in our life struggle with sin, and hold dearly on to some sins possibly for a long time.

It is written:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Our salvation is sure.

[TamaraLynne]

When I asked Jesus into my heart as alittle girl...........I thought this meant I loved him............I didn't know about Jesus abiding in us. I understood about the Holy Spirit in us but I didn't understand that Jesus was there. When I was praying for all evil to be far far from my family........I was wondering where to cast the demons that might be around my family............and then the Holy Spirit showed me Jesus inside me. Then I understood that it wasn't me that was able to cast away demons but Jesus in me. Jesus knew where the demons went and I didn't have to worry any more as to where to send them.


I was alittle scared at first............because I didn't know that Jesus could be in us.But the bible talks of this everywhere..............even the part in the bible where the people said to Jesus..."when did we see you hungry?" "when did we see you in prison?".............

I don't understand fully...........I don't. But I do know that God is in us.............

many people understand about demons entering into someone............why can they not understand about inviting Jesus in so that he can work in us and through us?

?

Love
Tam

[Zecryphon]

[quote=Zecryphon;30749599]TamaraLynne wrote: "Not everyone who calls themselves Christian have invited Jesus in.................it is because they didn't know this simple step."



When I came to Christ, I committed my life to Him, and said I would die for Him, I was born again that day. I later confessed sin and turned from some of it, not all, because we never turn from all. Belief comes first.

Well, I shouldn't say that, because not all come in the same way. We all come different ways to Christ.

We need to accept the gift of God. There is nothing wrong with asking Jesus into our heart.



I agree with what you wrote for the most part. Also, note that while we turn from sins, as we give them over to God, we will always in our life struggle with sin, and hold dearly on to some sins possibly for a long time.

It is written:



Our salvation is sure.
"There is nothing wrong with asking Jesus into our heart."

Except that it has no scriptural support. I'm going through the gospels again looknig for the passage where Jesus said "ask me into your heart". I haven't found it and I never found it before when I went through the gospels. The problem with this teaching of "asking Jesus into your heart" is that it suggests that Jesus' work on the cross is incomplete. It suggests that Jesus did all He could do, by dying, but the process is not complete until we allow Him to enter us or we ask Him to come into our lives. The Bible is clear, we are to call on His name to be saved. But calling on His name and asking Him into our hearts are two vastly different things, even though they sound the same on the surface. I hate to nitpick and I"m not picking on you, please don't think I am, but this whole docrtine is really a pet peeve of mine with the modern church of today.

[tapero]

[quote=tapero;30749890]
"There is nothing wrong with asking Jesus into our heart."

Except that it has no scriptural support. I'm going through the gospels again looknig for the passage where Jesus said "ask me into your heart". I haven't found it and I never found it before when I went through the gospels. The problem with this teaching of "asking Jesus into your heart" is that it suggests that Jesus' work on the cross is incomplete. It suggests that Jesus did all He could do, by dying, but the process is not complete until we allow Him to enter us or we ask Him to come into our lives. The Bible is clear, we are to call on His name to be saved. But calling on His name and asking Him into our hearts are two vastly different things, even though they sound the same on the surface. I hate to nitpick and I"m not picking on you, please don't think I am, but this whole docrtine is really a pet peeve of mine with the modern church of today.

Hi, I appreciate your post and understand your not picking on me. I know how somethings can be irritating. You said..but the process is not complete until we allow Him to enter us or we ask Him to come into our lives. I think that's the same as asking Him into our heart. I know that isn't in scripture, but many come to faith in different ways. We all have varying degrees of understanding. A child may easily and readily understand inviting Jesus into His heart.

When we believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit indwells us.

Jesus I don't think worries about the 'letter of the law' in regards to how we say things to become a believer. The bible says call no man father, yet we do. I don't but others do, and they are believers. I heard a pastor say he was going to retrain his children to stop praying to Jesus since the bible says to pray to the Father. I was sickened. God doesn't care about these things.

I didn't come to Christ by repenting of my sins as John says. I came thru comitting my life to Christ, and saying that I would die for Him. I asked Him into my life. That's it. Then the Holy Spirit worked in me to turn from sin, not all sin but some sin. As I said we will always sin. We have so much sin in our lives and God reveals it to us through the Spirit. We are aware of certain sins, and we hold on to some sins.

I'm just trying to say, that we all come differently. It doesn't really matter how one comes to Christ. In one place it says Once you believed... Another place says call on His name to be saved...

I found a lot of verses last night about this for the non christian religion forum, and saw different scripture regarding the same thing, but all using different words.

Many call on God, or Jesus, and are not believers. So just calling on His name, doesn't necessarily bring people to Christ.

Think about how you came to Christ, and recognize that others come differently. I would guess that it would be good to understand that others don't need or have the same experience we have. Paul was brought by Jesus in a dramatic way. That happens to many in a dramatic way. Mine was dramatic, an unfolding hearing the gospel preached at a funeral. It was very dramatic for some reason. I think the Holy Spirit was present in the funeral home and made it dramatic to me, for it was merely two pastors speaking the gospel to a handful of people. Some people are raised in Christian homes, and are saved very young, or at teenage or thereabouts gain a better understanding of why they believe what they believe. Nothing dramatic. They simply asked Christ into their heart.

We all come in different ways, and God knows our heart.

We all have differing walks and are at different places in our walk with God. Many Christians think that others should walk as they do, but God works in each man differently. The rich man that had always kept the commands so he said, was a good man, but he couldn't part with something so dear to him to follow Christ.

We aren't asked to part with much to follow Christ in America. What I mean is many aren't like that rich man often. He couldn't let go of something for some reason, but God didn't ask so much of me to know Him. Though we may lose friends, and family will consider us a black sheep that is minor. Some are drug addicts and have dramatic conversions, and are freed from drugs, but others come to Christ and are not freed of drugs. They will not let it go, we hang on to certain sins.

It's the inward sins that I wish that Christians would understand more about. Envy, coveteousness etc. We all struggle with these sins. We give them to God, and then take it back again.

I'm sorry I got way off topic. hehe..

I'll stop my rant now. This wasn't directed at you. I guess we all have our pet peeves. I guess the thing is to make sure it's worth the battle though is what I'm trying to get across.

There was a time when suddenly it was being taught in churches that one isn't saved unless Jesus is Lord and Savior in your life. People thought they weren't saved because of this junk. I suppose it didn't hurt, because they probably examined themselves more, but I'm sure many were turned away from Christ by this teaching.

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

That's it. That's all it take is belief.

Now then there will be these:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I believe these are the televangelists and pastors and those decieved by them. These people believed they were doing the right thing, but Jesus never knew them.

The will of God is that we love our neighbor as ourselves, and Love the Lord God with all our heart.

We don't love God with all our heart. We love him in part as we grow in Christ. Our love grows for him. It also depends on our bringing up how we view God, and some people were abused and don't understand love.

We just are people who are saved by grace.

Again, i'm sorry and i'll stop here. God bless.

[pdfiddler]

This thread turned in to another good'in.:thumbsup:

[Zecryphon]

I don't have alot of time right now so I'm just going to address this part of your response:

"Jesus I don't think worries about the 'letter of the law' in regards to how we say things to become a believer."

He may not worry about that, but it is of vital importance to the new convert. 90% of people who come to faith by asking Jesus into their heart end up as false converts. They don't have that fully committed relationship and submission to Christ that they should have and are back to their old ways within three months. To learn more about this, you can read Hell's Best Kept Secret by Ray Comfort. Salvation comes through repenting of your sin and putting your faith and trust in Jesus. I'm a conservative Christian and I believe this is the only way to salvation, with every fiber of my being. Other Christians will of course disagree with me on this, and that's fine. :wave:

[Nadiine]

I don't have alot of time right now so I'm just going to address this part of your response:

"Jesus I don't think worries about the 'letter of the law' in regards to how we say things to become a believer."

He may not worry about that, but it is of vital importance to the new convert. 90% of people who come to faith by asking Jesus into their heart end up as false converts. They don't have that fully committed relationship and submission to Christ that they should have and are back to their old ways within three months. To learn more about this, you can read Way of the Master by Ray Comfort. Salvation comes through repenting of your sin and putting your faith and trust in Jesus. I'm a conservative Christian and I believe this is the only way to salvation, with every fiber of my being. Other Christians will of course disagree with me on this, and that's fine. :wave:

Well, you're in good company, as I read the bible it's very conservative too. ;)

I agree 100% that people aren't led to the Lord correctly - it's majorly changed in the last 10 years. We're catering to this PC (politically correct) society, and it's failing.
I saw the stats on this show about how many fell away after making a profession of faith.
The main problem was that the people were oblivious to sin issues. It's like being told that God is a genie up there that ONLY wants to bless you & make your life happy-happy.
When the happiness & prosperity that they expect doesn't come, they bail out.

Dismantling the gospel will only produce trouble, and we see it today. Not only do they fall away, they become bitter or apathetic towards religion imo.
sad.

[Zecryphon]

Well, you're in good company, as I read the bible it's very conservative too. ;)

I agree 100% that people aren't led to the Lord correctly - it's majorly changed in the last 10 years. We're catering to this PC (politically correct) society, and it's failing.
I saw the stats on this show about how many fell away after making a profession of faith.
The main problem was that the people were oblivious to sin issues. It's like being told that God is a genie up there that ONLY wants to bless you & make your life happy-happy.
When the happiness & prosperity that they expect doesn't come, they bail out.

Dismantling the gospel will only produce trouble, and we see it today. Not only do they fall away, they become bitter or apathetic towards religion imo.
sad.
Absolutely.

[Zecryphon]

"Hi, I appreciate your post and understand your not picking on me."

Whew! Thanks.

"You said..but the process is not complete until we allow Him to enter us or we ask Him to come into our lives."

You're close, but your still missing what I'm saying. I said that by somebody asking Jesus into their hearts, they are suggesting that Jesus' work on the cross is not complete until we allow Him into our lives to complete the work that was started on the cross but not finished. It's like Jesus needs us, instead of us needing Him. It aslo portrays Jesus as a liar. He said in John 19:28-30 NIV:

[(28) Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Sripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." (29) A Jar of wine and vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. (30) When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.]

Jesus said "it is finished" and I take that literally. He had done everything He needed to do. We don't need to do anything to allow His work on the cross to be complete. The Holy Spirit is the one that convicts people of their sin in their heart and let's people know that they need to call on the name of Jesus to be saved. We simply tell them the truth of scriptures. Any saving that gets done is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of us and not of the person being convicted of sin and made righteous.

"I think that's the same as asking Him into our heart. I know that isn't in scripture, but many come to faith in different ways."

It's true that people come to faith in Christ in different ways, but I take a statement like that to mean, we have different circumstances that bring us to faith. But there is only one way to be saved, repentence and faith in Jesus Christ. That's it. It's not as complicated as we like to make it. LOL

"We all have varying degrees of understanding. A child may easily and readily understand inviting Jesus into His heart."

A child might understand that, but the child needs to understand why they need Jesus in the first place. Children are capable of understanding what a sin is. They know that lying is a sin and that cheating is a sin and that stealing is a sin. So why do we punify the gospel for children? Because we as adults think they don't get it? That's pretty conceited of us. If you want to use the "ask Jesus into your heart" doctrine with kids, fine, I disagree, but it's your call to make.

What I object to is using this teaching with adults. Adults can fully understand what the law of God is, what a sin is, how they have fallen short of God's standard of perfection and are sinners. But the problem with presenting the gospel to adults in this way, is that adults act like children when they hear it. They throw a tantrum in their hearts and say "nuh uh", and immediately point the finger of accusation at others saying, in typical little kid fashion, "well they didi it too! Why are you picking on me?" All I'm saying is that there should be one way in which people come to faith if they are to have a right understanding of where they are in realtion to God and why they need a savior.

People who use the "ask Jesus into your heart" method are playing on emotions, instead of using the law to convict. The purpose of the Law is to show a person their need for a savior, not as a means of salvation. I think alot of people think that if they follow the Ten Commandments they will get into heaven. Not true. The only way into heaven is through Jesus and the only way to come to Jesus is through repentence and faith.

"When we believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit indwells us."


Yes, but it is of vital importance that people understand why they're coming to Christ and what they are being saved from. I can't stress this enough, because people just aren't hearing this in their churches, and the Bible is so crystal clear on this.


"The bible says call no man father, yet we do. I don't but others do, and they are believers."

What do you call the man who's married to your mother or raised you as a child?

"I heard a pastor say he was going to retrain his children to stop praying to Jesus since the bible says to pray to the Father. I was sickened. God doesn't care about these things."

He obviously has some issues with the Trinity. I hope his kids set him straight. LOL

"I didn't come to Christ by repenting of my sins as John says. I came thru comitting my life to Christ, and saying that I would die for Him. I asked Him into my life. That's it. Then the Holy Spirit worked in me to turn from sin, not all sin but some sin. As I said we will always sin. We have so much sin in our lives and God reveals it to us through the Spirit. We are aware of certain sins, and we hold on to some sins."

So tell me why you put your faith in Jesus Christ. What did you need a savior for? What were you being saved from? If you don't understand that you're a sinner and need saving and why you need saving, you will not have a right relationship with God. Because your relationship with Him is not based upon repentence and faith for the forgiveness of sin. Luke 13:1-5 deals with the importance of repentence for the believer.

"I'm just trying to say, that we all come differently. It doesn't really matter how one comes to Christ. In one place it says Once you believed... Another place says call on His name to be saved..."

And in Luke 13:1-5 NIV it says:

[(1) Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. (2) Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? (3) I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. (4) Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? (5) I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.] (emphasis mine)

"I found a lot of verses last night about this for the non christian religion forum, and saw different scripture regarding the same thing, but all using different words.

Many call on God, or Jesus, and are not believers. So just calling on His name, doesn't necessarily bring people to Christ."

No it doesn't, you're absolutely 100% correct about that. Repentence and faith are the keys.

"Think about how you came to Christ,"

Which time? If you go to my blog at: http://zecryphon.blogspot.com, you will read about my status as a former false convert. The first time I came to Christ I didn't fully understand the sin issue, because after I got "saved" I continued right on in my sinful behavior. I didn't truly repent of my sin. I was convinced that the Bible was true and that Jesus was the son of God, but that was it. I was told I needed Him to save me from my sin, but I wasn't told why. I was attending an Evangelical Free church at the time, I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But I didn't fully understand my problem in relation to God. Basically the Bible was proved to me to be true, but what was not proven to me was my need for a savior. It was probably a lack of understanding on my part. LOL

"and recognize that others come differently. I would guess that it would be good to understand that others don't need or have the same experience we have. Paul was brought by Jesus in a dramatic way. That happens to many in a dramatic way. Mine was dramatic, an unfolding hearing the gospel preached at a funeral. It was very dramatic for some reason. I think the Holy Spirit was present in the funeral home and made it dramatic to me, for it was merely two pastors speaking the gospel to a handful of people. Some people are raised in Christian homes, and are saved very young, or at teenage or thereabouts gain a better understanding of why they believe what they believe. Nothing dramatic. They simply asked Christ into their heart."

If it makes someone comfortable to ask Jesus into their heart, they can certainly do so, as long as they have a sound understanding of what it is they have done, why they need a savior and what it is they are being saved from. But that's not what the doctrine of 'asking Jesus into your heart' accomplishes. It punifies the gospel and makes Christ into a friend who wants to be good to you, instead of presenting Him in the proper Biblical light.

"We all come in different ways, and God knows our heart."

I believe we come for different reasons, but we all come to Christ the same way to be saved, repentence and faith in Jesus Christ. Do I sound like a broken record yet? LOL

"We all have differing walks and are at different places in our walk with God. Many Christians think that others should walk as they do, but God works in each man differently. The rich man that had always kept the commands so he said, was a good man, but he couldn't part with something so dear to him to follow Christ."

This is all true, people do think others should be walking as they are walking. But to be saved... well you know what I'm going to say by now don't you? LOL

"We aren't asked to part with much to follow Christ in America."

Of course we're not, because Jesus is not presented in the correct light to Christians. He's presented as a friend who just wants to bless your socks off for no other reason than you're a good person. Where is that in the Biblical text?

"What I mean is many aren't like that rich man often. He couldn't let go of something for some reason, but God didn't ask so much of me to know Him."

The rich man loved his money more than he loved God. Jesus knew the rich man's heart and that's why He asked the rich man to give up the thing He loved most and then come follow Jesus. The rich man went away saddened because he had been convicted in his heart of his sin. He said he had kept the law and that made him a good person. That's not the purpose of the law. The rich man didn't even have a right understanding of the purpose of the law. The purpose of the law is to show us our need for a savior. Not to allow us to bypass our savior by offering another way into heaven.

"Though we may lose friends, and family will consider us a black sheep that is minor. Some are drug addicts and have dramatic conversions, and are freed from drugs, but others come to Christ and are not freed of drugs. They will not let it go, we hang on to certain sins."

That's because of our dual nature of saint and sinner. God does not hold our sin against us anymore when we are in Christ, but that does not mean that we get to continue in our sin after we accept Jesus. People that do that habitually, are considered carnal Christians. I believe these are the people that will be told by Christ "Depart from me, I never knew ye".

"It's the inward sins that I wish that Christians would understand more about. Envy, coveteousness etc. We all struggle with these sins. We give them to God, and then take it back again."

It's a submission problem. We all have it, and the ones who say they don't are just lying to themselves and others.

"I'm sorry I got way off topic. hehe.."

No. You're bringing up great points and showing the weak spots of Christians. We all struggle with these things and since we do that is proof all the more that we need to rely 100% on Jesus as our rock to help us become more faithful followers and people that are pleasing to God with our deeds and words.

"I'll stop my rant now. This wasn't directed at you. I guess we all have our pet peeves. I guess the thing is to make sure it's worth the battle though is what I'm trying to get across."

Presenting a Biblically sound doctrine of salvation is of the utmost importance because I don't want to see Jesus turn anybody away. So I will continue to spread the true gospel as presented in the Bible of repentence and faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin. There is no other way to come to Christ.

[MaidforHim]

Do you think what you experienced could be a vision, a warning of sorts?

I think there are 2 other ways to look at what you experienced that you might not have thought about, I don't know.

1) Satan trying to distract you from your worship and perhaps discourage you.
Or
2) Pherhaps a warning of sorts. Sometimes I think we get prophetic warnings to tell us &/or prepare us for temptation or spiritual warfare.

If this should happen again I suggest you approach the youth leader and ask them to pray for you right then and there.

Also, if this happens again at some other time/place I would suggest you pray to God, in Jesus Name, for Him to protect, strengthen, prepare, and guide your steps.

When we do fall sometimes we leave a gap for Satan to see, a door he'll try to tempt or harrass you through. He may snear at your worship in hopes of distracting you or discourageing you...BUT, greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. Keep asking God for his protection, strength and guidance.

You can say "The Lord Jesus Christ rebuke you" and ask for God's protection and cleansing power for your life anytime you feel even remotely tempted, harrassed or approached by evil. God is not willing that any should perish, He will be with you if/when and everytime you ask him to be.

[Josh3456]

Do you think what you experienced could be a vision, a warning of sorts?

I think there are 2 other ways to look at what you experienced that you might not have thought about, I don't know.

1) Satan trying to distract you from your worship and perhaps discourage you.
Or
2) Pherhaps a warning of sorts. Sometimes I think we get prophetic warnings to tell us &/or prepare us for temptation or spiritual warfare.

If this should happen again I suggest you approach the youth leader and ask them to pray for you right then and there.

Also, if this happens again at some other time/place I would suggest you pray to God, in Jesus Name, for Him to protect, strengthen, prepare, and guide your steps.

When we do fall sometimes we leave a gap for Satan to see, a door he'll try to tempt or harrass you through. He may snear at your worship in hopes of distracting you or discourageing you...BUT, greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. Keep asking God for his protection, strength and guidance.

You can say "The Lord Jesus Christ rebuke you" and ask for God's protection and cleansing power for your life anytime you feel even remotely tempted, harrassed or approached by evil. God is not willing that any should perish, He will be with you if/when and everytime you ask him to be.
I'm alright, but I got another encounter. I could feel that on the demons shackled my right hand. But not the left. Like I have to change my ways. I was thinking of a bad rock song :(

[Zecryphon]

I'm alright, but I got another encounter. I could feel that on the demons shackled my right hand. But not the left. Like I have to change my ways. I was thinking of a bad rock song :(
Which rock song were you thinking of?

[Josh3456]

Which rock song were you thinking of?
IDK what its called. But music does affect me, I am almost 100% sure of that.

[MaidforHim]

OK, if music does effect you how about finding some good alternatives?

My son plays contemporary Christian rock, he's a musician and if you can tell me what types of secular bands/sounds you used to enjoy I bet I can find you a Christian band with a similar style, but with a Godly message and source.

What genres - styles do you enjoy?

[Scorcher505]

I know what evil spirits feel like when they are around you. I have been followed by one for about 100 feet or so before. I scared it off by praying. I know what it feels like and it is very scary.

Satan and his demons are not afraid of you, they are afraid of the Holy Spirit and of God and his angels, and they work through you, which does scare him. Next time you feel that, tell whatever it is that you do not belong to him, you belong to God, and he has no power over you. Ask for protection and God will give it, and you will scare that thing off fast.

[Scorcher505]

BTW: DEMON HUNTER ROCKS

They are amazing. Christian rock is good music too, sounds as good as "bad" music. "Bad" music is not going to make you bad for listening to it. You are not made evil by what you take into your body but by what comes out of it.

[Nadiine]

BTW: DEMON HUNTER ROCKS

They are amazing. Christian rock is good music too, sounds as good as "bad" music. "Bad" music is not going to make you bad for listening to it. You are not made evil by what you take into your body but by what comes out of it.
I grew up on hard rock/metal/punk... if you like it, you can't help what you like.

But even tho it might not 'make you bad' as a person, that doesnt' mean it's good for your spirit to listen to the lyrics that glorify all kinds of sins or suicide and mock God etc.
I won't be a hypocrite to say I don't ever listen to it anymore - sometimes I flip the radio station & a tune's on that I love & I"ll listen to it.
I'm just alot more careful with it than I used to be.

I've always wished they'de put Christian lyrics to the tunes I loved & turn it into a good song. lol
Imagine a NIN song with Christian lyrics! ;) :thumbsup:

Somebody made a joke about Christian rock & how lame it actually was (on the scale of what real rock is) - i wish I could find that post. I could relate to what they said.

Anyways, that's my 2cents... :wave:

[tonysma]

Just thought I would share with you guys. A little over a week ago, I attended a youth group. When we were worshiping I could feel a presense (Least I think I did)
This was really the first time I actrully worshiped with my heart (I think). Anyway's I could feel someone walking around me in a cirlce. It was like a perfect circle. I thought it was god or an angel at first. But then it came by my face and it looked like it sneered or something. And then it walked away. Then after the youth group, some of the youth group people and I went to a resturant. I felt very happy, and calm.
Thats about it. Before I worshiped to god that night, I kept on thinking in my head I would finnally get rid of that demon. Anyways, I think he came back. Because I did some bad things again (nothing illegal) i'm trying to stay away from bad music right now. Key word TRYING.
Thanks for listening to my story.

Ps.. I think 2 days after this event, I lost alot of my emotions. Where it was hard to feel anger, grief and ect. Happeniess was still there. Anyone think they could answer this? I have some deep depression issues though. Might be that.

I remember when I first got saved...years and years of being a terrible person...All this removed and cleansed...we all have our little demons we had to get rid of... I was thankful for God when I was first saved..I always heard people saying they loved him...that wasn't exactly the case for me..thankful but not really love... It took me several years to come to the conclusion that I did love God...And I am truly thankful for him loving me and having mercy upon me...

[Josh3456]

I kinda want to stay away from any type of rock.

[Scorcher505]

To whoever said christian rock is lame: Listen to the following bands and then try and say that again:

Demon Hunter
Project 86
Pillar
Red
POD
Skillet

...just to name a few

[tapero]

I kinda want to stay away from any type of rock.
Dear Josh,
That makes a lot of sense to me.

When I became a Christian certain things that I did in the past, were not okay according to my conscience after I became a Christian. Those things I stayed away from and still do, but have been ok on other things.

I think you are wise.

Blessings
Tapero

[tapero]

Hi Zecryphon,

I haven't forgotten about this, just haven't gotten to it yet. Blessings, tapero

"Hi, I appreciate your post and understand your not picking on me."

Whew! Thanks.

"You said..but the process is not complete until we allow Him to enter us or we ask Him to come into our lives."

You're close, but your still missing what I'm saying. I said that by somebody asking Jesus into their hearts, they are suggesting that Jesus' work on the cross is not complete until we allow Him into our lives to complete the work that was started on the cross but not finished. It's like Jesus needs us, instead of us needing Him. It aslo portrays Jesus as a liar. He said in John 19:28-30 NIV:

[(28) Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Sripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." (29) A Jar of wine and vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. (30) When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.]

Jesus said "it is finished" and I take that literally. He had done everything He needed to do. We don't need to do anything to allow His work on the cross to be complete. The Holy Spirit is the one that convicts people of their sin in their heart and let's people know that they need to call on the name of Jesus to be saved. We simply tell them the truth of scriptures. Any saving that gets done is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of us and not of the person being convicted of sin and made righteous.

"I think that's the same as asking Him into our heart. I know that isn't in scripture, but many come to faith in different ways."

It's true that people come to faith in Christ in different ways, but I take a statement like that to mean, we have different circumstances that bring us to faith. But there is only one way to be saved, repentence and faith in Jesus Christ. That's it. It's not as complicated as we like to make it. LOL

"We all have varying degrees of understanding. A child may easily and readily understand inviting Jesus into His heart."

A child might understand that, but the child needs to understand why they need Jesus in the first place. Children are capable of understanding what a sin is. They know that lying is a sin and that cheating is a sin and that stealing is a sin. So why do we punify the gospel for children? Because we as adults think they don't get it? That's pretty conceited of us. If you want to use the "ask Jesus into your heart" doctrine with kids, fine, I disagree, but it's your call to make.

What I object to is using this teaching with adults. Adults can fully understand what the law of God is, what a sin is, how they have fallen short of God's standard of perfection and are sinners. But the problem with presenting the gospel to adults in this way, is that adults act like children when they hear it. They throw a tantrum in their hearts and say "nuh uh", and immediately point the finger of accusation at others saying, in typical little kid fashion, "well they didi it too! Why are you picking on me?" All I'm saying is that there should be one way in which people come to faith if they are to have a right understanding of where they are in realtion to God and why they need a savior.

People who use the "ask Jesus into your heart" method are playing on emotions, instead of using the law to convict. The purpose of the Law is to show a person their need for a savior, not as a means of salvation. I think alot of people think that if they follow the Ten Commandments they will get into heaven. Not true. The only way into heaven is through Jesus and the only way to come to Jesus is through repentence and faith.

"When we believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit indwells us."


Yes, but it is of vital importance that people understand why they're coming to Christ and what they are being saved from. I can't stress this enough, because people just aren't hearing this in their churches, and the Bible is so crystal clear on this.


"The bible says call no man father, yet we do. I don't but others do, and they are believers."

What do you call the man who's married to your mother or raised you as a child?

"I heard a pastor say he was going to retrain his children to stop praying to Jesus since the bible says to pray to the Father. I was sickened. God doesn't care about these things."

He obviously has some issues with the Trinity. I hope his kids set him straight. LOL

"I didn't come to Christ by repenting of my sins as John says. I came thru comitting my life to Christ, and saying that I would die for Him. I asked Him into my life. That's it. Then the Holy Spirit worked in me to turn from sin, not all sin but some sin. As I said we will always sin. We have so much sin in our lives and God reveals it to us through the Spirit. We are aware of certain sins, and we hold on to some sins."

So tell me why you put your faith in Jesus Christ. What did you need a savior for? What were you being saved from? If you don't understand that you're a sinner and need saving and why you need saving, you will not have a right relationship with God. Because your relationship with Him is not based upon repentence and faith for the forgiveness of sin. Luke 13:1-5 deals with the importance of repentence for the believer.

"I'm just trying to say, that we all come differently. It doesn't really matter how one comes to Christ. In one place it says Once you believed... Another place says call on His name to be saved..."

And in Luke 13:1-5 NIV it says:

[(1) Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. (2) Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? (3) I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. (4) Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? (5) I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.] (emphasis mine)

"I found a lot of verses last night about this for the non christian religion forum, and saw different scripture regarding the same thing, but all using different words.

Many call on God, or Jesus, and are not believers. So just calling on His name, doesn't necessarily bring people to Christ."

No it doesn't, you're absolutely 100% correct about that. Repentence and faith are the keys.

"Think about how you came to Christ,"

Which time? If you go to my blog at: http://zecryphon.blogspot.com, you will read about my status as a former false convert. The first time I came to Christ I didn't fully understand the sin issue, because after I got "saved" I continued right on in my sinful behavior. I didn't truly repent of my sin. I was convinced that the Bible was true and that Jesus was the son of God, but that was it. I was told I needed Him to save me from my sin, but I wasn't told why. I was attending an Evangelical Free church at the time, I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But I didn't fully understand my problem in relation to God. Basically the Bible was proved to me to be true, but what was not proven to me was my need for a savior. It was probably a lack of understanding on my part. LOL

"and recognize that others come differently. I would guess that it would be good to understand that others don't need or have the same experience we have. Paul was brought by Jesus in a dramatic way. That happens to many in a dramatic way. Mine was dramatic, an unfolding hearing the gospel preached at a funeral. It was very dramatic for some reason. I think the Holy Spirit was present in the funeral home and made it dramatic to me, for it was merely two pastors speaking the gospel to a handful of people. Some people are raised in Christian homes, and are saved very young, or at teenage or thereabouts gain a better understanding of why they believe what they believe. Nothing dramatic. They simply asked Christ into their heart."

If it makes someone comfortable to ask Jesus into their heart, they can certainly do so, as long as they have a sound understanding of what it is they have done, why they need a savior and what it is they are being saved from. But that's not what the doctrine of 'asking Jesus into your heart' accomplishes. It punifies the gospel and makes Christ into a friend who wants to be good to you, instead of presenting Him in the proper Biblical light.

"We all come in different ways, and God knows our heart."

I believe we come for different reasons, but we all come to Christ the same way to be saved, repentence and faith in Jesus Christ. Do I sound like a broken record yet? LOL

"We all have differing walks and are at different places in our walk with God. Many Christians think that others should walk as they do, but God works in each man differently. The rich man that had always kept the commands so he said, was a good man, but he couldn't part with something so dear to him to follow Christ."

This is all true, people do think others should be walking as they are walking. But to be saved... well you know what I'm going to say by now don't you? LOL

"We aren't asked to part with much to follow Christ in America."

Of course we're not, because Jesus is not presented in the correct light to Christians. He's presented as a friend who just wants to bless your socks off for no other reason than you're a good person. Where is that in the Biblical text?

"What I mean is many aren't like that rich man often. He couldn't let go of something for some reason, but God didn't ask so much of me to know Him."

The rich man loved his money more than he loved God. Jesus knew the rich man's heart and that's why He asked the rich man to give up the thing He loved most and then come follow Jesus. The rich man went away saddened because he had been convicted in his heart of his sin. He said he had kept the law and that made him a good person. That's not the purpose of the law. The rich man didn't even have a right understanding of the purpose of the law. The purpose of the law is to show us our need for a savior. Not to allow us to bypass our savior by offering another way into heaven.

"Though we may lose friends, and family will consider us a black sheep that is minor. Some are drug addicts and have dramatic conversions, and are freed from drugs, but others come to Christ and are not freed of drugs. They will not let it go, we hang on to certain sins."

That's because of our dual nature of saint and sinner. God does not hold our sin against us anymore when we are in Christ, but that does not mean that we get to continue in our sin after we accept Jesus. People that do that habitually, are considered carnal Christians. I believe these are the people that will be told by Christ "Depart from me, I never knew ye".

"It's the inward sins that I wish that Christians would understand more about. Envy, coveteousness etc. We all struggle with these sins. We give them to God, and then take it back again."

It's a submission problem. We all have it, and the ones who say they don't are just lying to themselves and others.

"I'm sorry I got way off topic. hehe.."

No. You're bringing up great points and showing the weak spots of Christians. We all struggle with these things and since we do that is proof all the more that we need to rely 100% on Jesus as our rock to help us become more faithful followers and people that are pleasing to God with our deeds and words.

"I'll stop my rant now. This wasn't directed at you. I guess we all have our pet peeves. I guess the thing is to make sure it's worth the battle though is what I'm trying to get across."

Presenting a Biblically sound doctrine of salvation is of the utmost importance because I don't want to see Jesus turn anybody away. So I will continue to spread the true gospel as presented in the Bible of repentence and faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin. There is no other way to come to Christ.

[Zecryphon]

Hi Zecryphon,

I haven't forgotten about this, just haven't gotten to it yet. Blessings, tapero
That's kewl. Take your time. :wave:

[Zecryphon]

IDK what its called. But music does affect me, I am almost 100% sure of that.
Do you at least know who sings the song?

[MaidforHim]

To whoever said christian rock is lame: Listen to the following bands and then try and say that again:

Demon Hunter
Project 86
Pillar
Red
POD
Skillet

...just to name a few

Amen :thumbsup:

And
Kutless
Hyper Static Union
Switchfoot
Relient K
Stellar Kart
Falling Up
Disciple
Paul Wright
Hawk Nelson
Family Force 5
Toby Mac
:clap:
You can find all these on myspace and listen to their songs there. Some are on dittytalk too.