OO's and the belief of the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos

[minasoliman]

I figured this would be a continuation from:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=30621365&postcount=30

I wanted to discuss a few things that we as OO's (or even in the Coptic Church) might find in disagreement with the Immaculate Conception. It has been requested that ONLY OO's and Catholics are the ones to discuss this.

First, the OO Church believes that St. Mary was born like any other human except Christ who was the only one who was born without sin. Thus, we do not believe in her immaculate conception of St. Mary.

Second, the beliefs that center around the conception are also in question. One of which was the idea that Christ's sacrifice, although happening in time, had its effect outside of time, since this is God, who is timeless.

We believe that because God is not bound by time, God was prefectly able to, and in fact did, apply the saving grace given through Christ's sacrifice, yet still to happen in time, to Mary at the momment of her conception, in a prevenient mannerI believe it's here where I disagree. First, Christ became man. Thus, God who is uncreated became created. Does that mean that His created humanity was prevenient? Likewise, the sacrifice being something involving creation cannot be prevenient. It must happen in time. In fact, man's creation depends on time. For God to disregard time and save someone before the sacrifice could happen in time would mean that Christ's sacrifice disregarded part of man's creation, and thus even time which is a creation, is either not redeemed or was never fallen in the first place.

Man as created was fallen through the fall in all of his creation, soul, spirit, and flesh, which consists of the essences time, matter, and space. If Christ redeemed matter and space, and not time, there is still something in soul, spirit, and flesh that has not been redeemed, and therefore, makes the sacrifice of Christ incomplete.

in other words, if one uses the analogy of a mud pit, Mary was saved from falling in by being prevented, where we are saved by being pulled out. Both are equally saved, neither could be free of the mud pit without divine intervention and salvific grace through Christ's sacrifice.You and I probably then look at time differently. Salvation requires time as much as matter and space. It requires time by the creation to choose salvation and requires time because time is a creation that needs to be redeemed as well. God, the matterless, the spaceless, and the timeless, was incarnate in time, space, and matter to unite both creation and the Uncreated, for us to inherit His own properties and to experience and transcend time, space, and matter in His Divine Grace.

To us, to say that God, who is outside of time and space, cannot apply salvific grace, through the sacrifice of Christ, to Mary simply because it had not yet happened, is to limit God.To OO's, to say that God who was incarnate in time, space and matter to not redeem all these three which we are part of would limit the sacrifice, probably limiting God's work, if not God.

It is a central issue that time, just as matter and space, is included in Christ's salvific work, which is why no one before Christ can ever be saved. It would disregard the point of God's humble limitation to us for our salvation. How then can God "regard the lowly estate" as the Theotokos prayed beautifully?

God bless you and looking forward to a good discussion. :)

Mina

[thereselittleflower]

Hi mina . . . may I make sure I am clear . .. we can have an open discussion here and it will not be construed as debate?

I would welcome that indeed. :)

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[minasoliman]

I would absolutely to prefer to call this an open discussion of our ideas, and not a debate to prove the other wrong.

Thank you for reminding us.

God bless.

Mina

[thereselittleflower]

What happened? Are we no longer to discuss this in the OO forum?

This is the formal debate forum . . . .

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[thereselittleflower]

mina, do you have some sources for the OO position?

How far back do they go? What do you have that you can direct me to regarding Early Church writings of the OO on Mary? Does the OO hold to the writings of the same ECF's as the EO do? I need a frame of reference from which to discuss this with you, I am not as familiar with the OO as I am with the EO.

Thanks. :)

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[thereselittleflower]

I would like to bring some Eatern writings to bear on this discussion . . . This first, even though it is the first part that I want to focus on for this discussion, is an incredibly beautiful prayer that is in accord with everything I have learned regarding Mary as a Catholic, and is spiritually profound - I think it is worthy of our continual mediation as we share together:
MAGNIFICAT of the HOLY VIRGIN MARY,
quoted from manuscript of the monasteries by H. H. Pope Shenouda 3rd.


The Song of Mary

( And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of his maid servant, for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and Holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm, He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty. He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy, as He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever ). (Luke 1: 46-56)

. . . .

You have grace and kinship more than the Cherubim and the Seraphim. Your request is answered more and better than whole of the heavenly powers and orders. You are the sanctuary of the Son by the Holy Spirit. You are the paradise of the Lord that God made since the beginning. You are the Holy Stream through which the Water of Life has poured and "whoever drinks of the water that He shall give ... will never thirst". (John 4/13).

You are the pure bride who is filled with meekness, sweetness and wisdom, the ornamented with hope, trustworthiness and love. Your purity is perfect. You are the planted tree in the Lord's House that borne fruit to us The Beloved Son Jesus Christ. The True word, He who scarified Himself for us, in order to partake of His Flesh and His Blood, and to live forever through Him.

Therefore, I supplicate You, O' Theotokos, The Virgin, O' My Pure Lady, Mariam to lend your ears to the voice of my invocation. I miserable servant, who is unworthy to be called Your servant, for I am cruel and wicked, ashamed of my countless and evil deeds, and scornful of my impurity. My sins are too heavy to bear that I was hurt and burnt by fire of lusts. Many times I have decided to repent, but I am revealed a liar.

O' My Lady, until when do I trespass? All the while I am not ashamed of your Beloved Son, Who knows everything. Until when does He grant me a postponement?, as I do not return from my wicked ways, I have lost hope in salvation, and have not boldness to raise my dirty face to heaven or to look up on high with my eyes for they are the cause of my fall in transgression. Likewise, my ears have deceived me through listening to vanities, and my tongue have spoken with lies that have troubled me. How my mind and heart have grieved me and defeated me with perishable lusts, that made my body sick and the sin has overcome me and I have been neglected like the dead, that I found neither any healer nor a helper.

..............

Now, I come to Your Luminous Icon, O' My pure Lady, Mariam, The Virgin, O' Theotokos the first pleader for mankind, may You take interest through Your merciful eyes in me.... So, O' My Lady, may you reach out and deliver me from those pains, 'for my life is spent with grief.'( Ps. 31/10) , and 'I am weary with my groaning' (Ps. 6/6), and my soul has languished under numerous distresses and temptations. I appeal to You to help me and to save me through your mediation....I adjure you with the Holy Good Tidings, that You deserved to accept from the Archangel Gabriel who announced to You, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women!... and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" (Luke 1:38-42) and through the Holy Spirit that poured upon You, and the power of the Highest that overshadowed You, and through coming upon of the Son of God in Your pure womb, and through the love of His Father to You who looked upon the human kind from heaven, that He found none like You. ... You conceived Jesus without sowing of a man, and grew in Your womb for nine months. Then He was born by You without suffering, nor corruption, and "wrapped Him in swaddling clothes" (Luke 2/7). You bore Him on your arms, took care of Him, kissed Him with your pure mouth, nursed Him at your bosom and put him at Your knees. ...

O' Our Lady, how could not Jesus forgive us our sins- except through Your pleading for us- while He bore all such troubles, hurts, and pains in His body for us. O' Our Lady and our intercessor, all those sufferings took place while You stood weeping by His Cross. ...

( Please refer to this wonderful booklet of H. H. Pope Shenouda III, Quoted from Manuscript of the Monasteries, Published by Sons of H. H. Pope Kyrillos the 6th., PO Box 9542 Cairo.)

[thereselittleflower]

St Ephraim the Syrian - Deacon and Doctor of the Church (+ 373 ?)

Prayer to the Blessed Virgin

Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the world, hope of those who are in despair; you are the joy of the Saints; you are the peacemaker between sinners and God; you are the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of the world; you are the consolation of the world, the ransom of slaves, the comforter of the afflicted, the salvation of the universe.

We take refuge in your protection, dear Queen: 'We have no confidence but in you, most faithful Virgin.' After God you are all our hope. We bear the name of your servants; allow not the enemy to drag us to Hell. I salute you, great Mediatrix of peace between men and God, Mother of Jesus our Lord, who is the love of all men and of God, to whom be honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Amen.



December 8

No one else has like you been possessed from the first by purifying grace

o not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God that can never be lost. You have won from God a most glorious favor, a grace long-desired, a grace of great splendor, a saving grace, an unfailing grace, a grace that will last forever. Many before you have been holy, but no one has been as favored as you, no one as blessed as you, no one as perfectly sanctified as you, no one as highly praised as you. No one else has like you been possessed from the first by purifying grace, no one else has approached so close to God as you, or been enriched with such divine gifts, or endowed with such heavenly grace.

You surpass all human desire; you surpass all the gifts given by God to the whole human race, for God's dwelling within you has made you richer than all others. No one else has been able to contain God as you do; no one else has been capable of receiving God as you have; no one else has deserved to be so enlightened by God. And therefore you have not only received God, the Creator and Lord of the universe, but he has in an unheard-of way taken flesh from you; you bear him in your womb, and will later give birth to him who will redeem humankind from the Father's sentence, and confer on it eternal salvation.

Sophronius of Jerusalem

Sophronius of Jerusalem, Oratio 2, 25: PG 87/3, 3246-3248.

http://www.artsci.villanova.edu/dsteelman/tradition/days/1208.html


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The holy Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary

"It was in the way that God of old fashioned our mother, Eve, when He took the rib from Adam's already living side and guilt it up into the woman - for it was on account of this that He did not breathe on it, as with Adam, the breath of life; rather, with the part which He took from his flesh, He completed the whole body of the woman, and the first fruits of the Spirit already present in the living flesh He made into a living soul having indeed already created both as man at the same time - in just the same fashion, taking living flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary as a kind of leaven and first-fruit from the dough of our common nature - soul and body both - God the Maker and Fashioner united it with His own incomprehensible and unapproachable divinity. Rather, it was with our essence that He united essentially the whole substance [hypostasis] of His divinity, mingling unmingled the one with the Other, the human with His own, building it up into a temple consecrated to Himself. "Thus, without alteration or change, did the Creator of Adam become Himself perfect man." St. Symeon the New Theologian


http://www.martyrsandsaints.org/main/era_of_martyrdom/01st_century/holy_virgin_mary.htm





Coptic:

Common Paschal Prayers:According to the Rites and Tradition ofThe Coptic Orthodox Church(English/English Transliteration of Coptic



Closing of Prayer: Always in Coptic:“amen alleluia: zoxa patri ke eiu ke agieu epnevmati: ke neen ke a-ein ke iss toss e-oon-ass-toun eh-ounoun: amin.

Ten-osh evol engo emmoss: geh open-choice issus pi-ekhristoss: ve-etav-ashf eh pi-estavross: ek ekh-om-khem. em-ep-e-sa-ta-nass saba-ceit enn-etsha-lagg.

Souti emmon ooh nai-naan: kyrie-leison kyrie-leison kyrie-evlogy-soan amen.

Essmou err-oei: iss ti-metaonia: go-nei-evol go-em-pi-esmoo.”

English Translation:Amen alleluia, glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

We cry out saying, our Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified on the cross, trample down satan under our feet.

Save us and have mercy. Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord bless. Amen.

Give the blessing, give the blessing, we prostrate, absolve us, and give the blessing.

Priest: May Jesus Christ, our true God who through His own goodwill accepted suffering, and was crucified on the cross for our sakes, bless us with all spiritual blessings, and support us, and complete for us the Holy week of Pascha and bring forth upon us the joy of His Resurrection for many years and peaceful times. Through the never ending intercessions of the immaculate, holy virgin Lady, the Theotokos Saint Mary. And all the choirs of angels and archangels; through the prayers of the Patriarchs, the Prophets, the Apostles, the martyrs, the righteous and holy-ones, the stavrophorais (cross bearers), the ascetics, the confessors, and the anchorites; and the blessings of the holy week of our Good Savior; their holy blessing, their benediction, their power, their gift, their love, and their help rest upon us all forever. Amen.

Priest: Christ is our Lord ( “pi-ekhristouse pen-nouti”)

Congregation: Amen (“amen. Ess-eh-shoubi”)


http://www.zeitun-eg.org/paschag2.pdf



THE HOLY PASCHA

ءﺎﺴﻤﻟا ﺔﺒﻠﻃ

NIGHTTIME LITANIES


O Begotten of the Father, Who was incarnated from the Immaculate Virgin St. Mary in the fullness of time, who said unto Thy holy apostles: go and preach all nations, baptize them and teach them all things that I have commanded you. I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Be also with Thy people who cry unto Thee saying: We ask Thee, O Lord, hearken and have mercy on us.

ﻳأءارﺬﻌﻟا لﻮﺘﺒﻟا ﺮﻜﺒﻟا ﻦﻡ ﺪﺴﺠﺕ يﺬﻟا بﻵا ﻦﻡ دﻮﻟﻮﻤﻟا ﺎﻬﻦﻴﺴﻳﺪﻘﻟا ﻩﺬﻴﻡﻼﺘﻟ لﺎﻗ يﺬﻟا ، مﺎﻳﻷا ﺮﺧﺁ ﻲﻓ ﻢﻳﺮﻡ ﺔﺴﻳﺪﻘﻟاﺎﻡ ﻊﻴﻤﺝ ﻢهﻮﻤﻠﻋو ﻢهوﺪﻤﻋو ﻢﻡﻷا ﻞآ اوﺬﻤﻠﺕو اﻮﻀﻡا، ﻢﻟﺎﻌﻟاءﺎﻀﻘﻧا ﻰﻟاو مﺎﻳﻷا ﻞآ ﻢﻜﻌﻡ ﺎﻧأ اذﻮه ، ﻪﺏ ﻢﻜﺘﻴﺻوأﻟﺄﺴﻧ ، ﻦﻴﻠﺋﺎﻗ ﻚﻴﻟإ ﻦﻴﺧرﺎﺼﻟا ﻚﺒﻌﺵ ﻊﻡ ﺎﻀﻳأ ﻦآبر ﺎﻳ ﻚﺎﻨﻤﺣراو ﺎﻨﻌﻤﺱا.]ﺐﻌﺸﻟا[ﻢﺣرا بر ﺎﻳ.

http://saint-mary.net/books/holypascha/litaniesnighttime.pdf



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[minasoliman]

Dear Thereselittleflower,

I'll need some time to digest what you have give me right now. For now, I can tell you that we as a Church believe that time is a creation, as is matter and space. From this, I deduced the position I have given you, based on the position of St. Gregory of Nanzienzen, "What has to be saved must be assumed." I don't know of any other major source yet to give this position concerning time itself, but there are other sources I know where it mentions certain roles of the Holy Spirit in the Incarnation, such as "purifying" and sanctifying the womb of the Virgin, which is also another issue behind the Immaculate Conception belief that is also worth discussing.

The specific position of the role of the Holy Spirit, I can find in modern sources like Fr. Matta el Maskeen.

God bless.

Mina

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Mina . .. Both would be interesting . . it might be helpful to focus on this primarily:

there are other sources I know where it mentions certain roles of the Holy Spirit in the Incarnation, such as "purifying" and sanctifying the womb of the Virgin, which is also another issue behind the Immaculate Conception belief that is also worth discussing.




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[minasoliman]

Dear Therese,

Thank you for these beautiful prayers. These are the common titles that we give the Theotokos.

I believe that the Theotokos is immaculate, that by her flesh, God came and took, and made it one with Him, and it was by her flesh that God took and made His own that saved us.

Thus, how honorable is it that we must venerate the Virgin Theotokos St. Mary. She is pure at all times from personal sins, doing righteousness in the eyes of God. Truly, the Virgin is greater, higher, and more glorified than the Cherubim, more honorable than the Seraphim. She's the new Eve, the salvation of our Father Adam, the hope of Job, the joy of Abraham.

HH Pope Shenouda as any Coptic Orthodox Christian, gives enormous veneration and devotion to the Immaculate and Holy Virgin, the Mother of God, St. Mary. Thus, you will find the depth of prayers given as you quote praising her in titles like "the True Vine," "our Salvation," "the Mother of us all," the "Immaculate and Ever-Holy," etc.

However, we as OO's, and especially HH Pope Shenouda describe these titles as her virtues, but not her state of humanity, which is no different than any other human being in this world.

HH Pope Shenouda devoted a book about her called "The Holy Virgin Saint Mary" and you can read it here:

http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/the_holy_virgin_st_mary/index.html

In it, as I have implied earlier, HH Pope Shenouda believed that the Holy Spirit not only sanctified, but purified her womb, which means that there was something in her that needed purification:

2. The Church believes that the Holy Spirit has sanctified the depository of The Virgin during the pregnancy with Christ.
That was according to what the angel said to her "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). The sanctifying by the Holy Spirit of her depository, makes the One born of her, be conceived without the impurity of the original sin. As for The Virgin herself, her mother conceived, like all people, and so The Virgin said in her hymn: "my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47).

That is why the Church does not agree that The Virgin was
conceived without the impurity of the original sin, as our brothers the Catholics believe.

Therefore, the prayers in which you posted by HH Pope Shenouda was done in exactly the spirit of the Eastern fathers, but not in the point not including her from Original Sin.

Let us examine some of the things you have bolded:

You are the paradise of the Lord that God made since the beginning.

What is "the beginning?" Surely, HH Pope Shenouda did not mean that she was made from the very beginning in a literal sense, but in a contemplative allegorical sense. We say that the Holy Virgin is the "tabernacle and the altar" and the "Manna's pot" and the "golden censor" and the "Bush that burned." All these carried allegorically Christ, and thus where God dwells, there is Paradise. Truly, when God dwelt in Her womb, to us, She was this paradise that has been prophecied about before all ages.

You are the pure bride who is filled with meekness, sweetness and wisdom, the ornamented with hope, trustworthiness and love. Your purity is perfect.

Notice here, HH Pope Shenouda never mentioned her perfect purity in her state of humanity, but in her virtues: "meekness, sweetness, wisdom, hope, trust, love." She is the bride because she is the figure of the Church, by which we are born through the womb of baptism, just as Christ was born through her womb.

Even the basins however that were used for baptism must first be cleaned and then consecrated by the Holy Oil before used for baptizing anyone. Likewise, in the Old Testament, all the vessels made for the presence of God were to be cleaned beforehand with water and oil before the Shekinah glory be present.

For St. Ephraim the Syrian:

Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary

We are never in disagreement. She is truly Immaculate and wholly-pure, even more so now adding to her humanity. She was pure in virtue and this is why she gained favor as blessed among women by God the Father to bear His only begotten Son.

St. Sophronious:

You have won from God a most glorious favor, a grace long-desired, a grace of great splendor, a saving grace, an unfailing grace, a grace that will last forever.

We as the OO Church, especially our Alexandrian fathers have defined this "grace" as our Lord Jesus Christ and the presence of God Himself as "grace" and "favor." So yes, indeed, this grace will never fail, and will last forever. It is our saving grace, the presence of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour.

no one as perfectly sanctified as you, no one as highly praised as you. No one else has like you been possessed from the first by purifying grace, no one else has approached so close to God as you, or been enriched with such divine gifts, or endowed with such heavenly grace.

Who else in history before or after the Theotokos was purified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit? Who else gave birth to God and still remained a Virgin evermore? Who else held God in her womb?

Blessed is she among women, and blessed is the Fruit of her womb who I worship. For the grace of God has filled her within and with-out. Blessed is her purity for being sinless and yet still possessing the Original Sin. Blessed is she who said "Yes" and blessed is her humility accepting such a great responsibility for all of mankind. Blessed is her obedience to the Lord who removed the shame of Eve. Blessed is she, for she is truly and wholly immaculate and full of grace.

While St. Symeon is a Chalcedonian, the OO Church venerates him among the great saints and theologians of the Church, and he says something interesting:

It was in the way that God of old fashioned our mother, Eve, when He took the rib from Adam's already living side and guilt it up into the woman - for it was on account of this that He did not breathe on it, as with Adam, the breath of life; rather, with the part which He took from his flesh, He completed the whole body of the woman, and the first fruits of the Spirit already present in the living flesh He made into a living soul having indeed already created both as man at the same time

Indeed, St. Symeon here shows a slight difference between the humanity of Adam and the humanity of Eve, in that while Adam required the breathe of God, Eve did not. Likewise:

in just the same fashion, taking living flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary as a kind of leaven and first-fruit from the dough of our common nature - soul and body both - God the Maker and Fashioner united it with His own incomprehensible and unapproachable divinity.

That the flesh of the Virgin Mary was a "seed" to the flesh of Christ being united to His divinity, and yet in the end, it makes Christ uniting our humanity, not just the Theotokos alone, with His divinity:

Rather, it was with our essence that He united essentially the whole substance [hypostasis] of His divinity,

Our own essence that is the same as the Virgin Mary was united to His divinity. He united us to Himself so that we may inherit along with the Virgin Mary what belongs to Him. Therefore, we are not in disagreement with St. Symeon either.

God bless you. :)

Mina

[minasoliman]

What happened? Are we no longer to discuss this in the OO forum?

This is the formal debate forum . . . .

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While this is the formal debate forum, I thought it would be better to share ideas here. Even in the other thread concerning the EO/OO situation, I wouldn't like calling it a debate, but a discussion. We're not here to convert the other, but simply to learn.

Many people can misconstrue these things as a debate in private forums like VitB or OBOB. So, I thought it would be safer to conduct a discussion here.

God bless. :)

Mina

[minasoliman]

Dear Therese,

I hope I haven't offended you in any way.

God bless.

Mina

[thereselittleflower]

No, not at all . . I need to be able to focus on something like this . . it is not the same as most threads which are simply rehashing the same general topics. Those don't take a lot of focus :) I just haven't been able to focus on this to devote the time I need to to adequately respond. . . I do intend to respond to your post though. :)

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[thereselittleflower]

But I would ask how one can logically separate one's humanity from one's virtues, for it is as a human, and by virtue of being human, one possess those virtues.

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[minasoliman]

But I would ask how one can logically separate one's humanity from one's virtues, for it is as a human, and by virtue of being human, one possess those virtues.

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I don't understand the question.

I suppose that virtues are also a part of humanity. We are created to be virtuous too.

God bless.

Mina