No Prophets!

[pdfiddler]

It was said in the locked PAT R thread :confused: buy a certian postette that "I think we're past prophets at this point". How do you all feel about the five-fold ministry or the helping hand that God provided ( apostles,prophets, evangelists,shepherds and teachers) for raising up of the body of Christ? Do you think it's still available or do you think "we are past that point"? Has God pulled it? Is there another way for building up the saints?

[rocklife]

I agree with whatever is biblical and new testament, Jesus ways. I am still young in the faith, I have belief any christian with God's Holy Spirit can prophesy. I believe if we tell any future event that is told in the bible, we can potentially be prophesying. I do think because we are so prone to error, though, I would always test everything, even myself (which I do)

I see a normal dictionary definition defines prophet as #1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed. I believe that is still very possible. Jesus says sometimes His servants will bear witness of Him, and don't worry about what to say, it will be given when they need it. I still believe this is done today. I have read testimonies from persecuted christians, they say they have seen such things. I also feel God has spoken through me sometimes (but I always pray for wisdom and discernment too, I don't want to think something that may not be right, and continue in bible study daily)

[tturt]

Of course, five fold ministry is for today.

[linssue55]

It was said in the locked PAT R thread :confused: buy a certian postette that "I think we're past prophets at this point". How do you all feel about the five-fold ministry or the helping hand that God provided ( apostles,prophets, evangelists,shepherds and teachers) for raising up of the body of Christ? Do you think it's still available or do you think "we are past that point"? Has God pulled it? Is there another way for building up the saints?

LEARNING and APPLYING doctrine from our right pastor teaches that teaches the original languages.

[Scorcher505]

My mom has been prophessied to in the past, both were the same prophesy, and now it is starting to come true. On two separate occassions she was told she and my father would preach around the world, and now my parents are getting involved with a missions group and in Feb my dad is going to Etheopia.

[pdfiddler]

Even Saul stopped and prophesied awhile, on his way to kill David.I don't think prophesing and being a prophet are the same.Do you?(This is not directed at your post scorcher). Come on all you folks,dig deep and clean out those old cobwebs. I would like to hear more from all of you.:wave:

[JDIBe]

It was said in the locked PAT R thread :confused: buy a certian postette that "I think we're past prophets at this point". How do you all feel about the five-fold ministry or the helping hand that God provided ( apostles,prophets, evangelists,shepherds and teachers) for raising up of the body of Christ? Do you think it's still available or do you think "we are past that point"? Has God pulled it? Is there another way for building up the saints?
Do we still have Apostles? :)

[Telrunya]

The Book of Revelation says that people will see visions and dream dreams. That people will prophecy. They did in the OT, they did in the NT. No where have I read that some of the gifts will be removed. All of that, to me, adds up to the five fold ministry is for today.

JDIBe we have many Church planters today

[JDIBe]

JDIBe we have many Church planters today

Are church planters Apostles? What is the Biblical definition of an Apostle, anyway?

[Siderite]

The Book of Revelation says that people will see visions and dream dreams. That people will prophecy. They did in the OT, they did in the NT. No where have I read that some of the gifts will be removed. All of that, to me, adds up to the five fold ministry is for today.

JDIBe we have many Church planters today
What gifts are we talking about? Are we discussing the gifts that the apostles were given? If so, the bible clearly states that, although these gifts could be passed on to others by the apostles, these others who received gifts could not pass their gifts on - thus the apostles gifts would not exist in the world today.

[ivory]

It was said in the locked PAT R thread :confused: buy a certian postette that "I think we're past prophets at this point". How do you all feel about the five-fold ministry or the helping hand that God provided ( apostles,prophets, evangelists,shepherds and teachers) for raising up of the body of Christ? Do you think it's still available or do you think "we are past that point"? Has God pulled it? Is there another way for building up the saints?
The five-fold ministry is still very much alive

[Flame]

The gifts in fact in my opinion do still exist today. This thread kinda evolved though. We started with Prophets and evolved to apostles. The original prophets were more then just individuals that prophesied.
They devoted every facet of their lives to God. They existed only by his direction so much that they took no thought for provisions. God provided their every need and they expected him too. Therefore they received of God. Everything they did, was for Gods glory not theirs. The spirit of prophecy they had still exists and God would send it to us on earth. All we would need is someone with that much faith. Who would be willing to forsake all and totaly depend on God. That if the spirit told them to they would say or do whatever he bid. I pray that I become faithful enough to receive that type of gift from God.

[Telrunya]

What gifts are we talking about? Are we discussing the gifts that the apostles were given? If so, the bible clearly states that, although these gifts could be passed on to others by the apostles, these others who received gifts could not pass their gifts on - thus the apostles gifts would not exist in the world today.
Where does it say that and are you sure you have it in context?

[JDIBe]

The gifts in fact in my opinion do still exist today. This thread kinda evolved though. We started with Prophets and evolved to apostles. The original prophets were more then just individuals that prophesied.
They devoted every facet of their lives to God. They existed only by his direction so much that they took no thought for provisions. God provided their every need and they expected him too. Therefore they received of God. Everything they did, was for Gods glory not theirs. The spirit of prophecy they had still exists and God would send it to us on earth. All we would need is someone with that much faith. Who would be willing to forsake all and totaly depend on God. That if the spirit told them to they would say or do whatever he bid. I pray that I become faithful enough to receive that type of gift from God.
I think some "gifts" do exist today, but some do not exist in the same form as the first century.

I think my question was a valid one. The question was "Does the five-fold ministry still exist as in the 1st Century church?". I don't see any Apostles around (unless the definition of "Apostle" is radically different from which I am thinking...) so I would have to say, no it does not. Now if we want to discuss "5-1" that might be worth persuing, but the Lord's Church does operate under different circumstances than in the 1st Century.

I think you are right when you say prophets did more than just predict random events. Someone once said that prophets "forth-told" as much as they "fore-told". For example, OT prophets told the people how things were, and how God felt about what they were doing. And that is a (I would argue THE) major part of being a prophet.

Which brings up an interesting question: Without naming names, how often must a "Prophet of God" be right in his/her predictions to be considered a "Prophet"? Always? 99%? 90%? 75%? 50%?
I would think that if you believed that prophesy still exists in the 1st century form that would be a very important question to consider. Otherwise, how do you know this person comes from God? And an even scarier thought, "How do you know that what they are saying comes from God?"?

[JesusFreak78]

All the gifts exists today and where in the bible does it say it say the gifts has a time limit? The gifts are given from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit does not change with time.

[talitha]

Are we past prophets?

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
(1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

Has "the perfect" come?

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
(Ephesians 4:11-13)

Hmmm - doesn't sound to me like we're past prophets - or any of the five-fold gifts.

by the way, I personally know people I believe to be prophets, and at least one that I believe to be an apostle.

blessings
tal

[ranyhyn]

The Wednesday night Bible study I attend is currently on the 5-fold ministry. Very interesting indeed. And no I don't believe we're past any of the five parts. I think all of the five parts are alive in the church of today just as they would have been back in the beginning.

While I don't think they appear the same in the literal sense they are certainly performing the same duties of those that would have been around in the beginning. At least that's my opinion on it all.

[JDIBe]

and at least one that I believe to be an apostle.

Ok, explain. :)

You guys are talking like this is something you take for granted that everyone knows, but I'm kind of lost here. (Maybe I'm the only one.) :confused: :confused: :confused:

[ranyhyn]

Explain in what sense? You are lost as to what exactly an apostle is?

[JDIBe]

Explain in what sense? You are lost as to what exactly an apostle is?
Yes.

[ranyhyn]

This may not be the most detailed or the most exact answer but here goes.

In the early church there were of course the original 12 apostles. Jesus gave them charge to go out and build the church.

"It is, however, generally used as designating the body of disciples to whom he intrusted the organization of his church and the dissemination of his gospel, "the twelve," as they are called ( Mat 10:1 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat010.html#1)-5 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat010.html#5); Mar 3:14 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar003.html#14); 6:7 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar006.html#7); Luk 6:13 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk006.html#13); 9:1 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk009.html#1))"

"Our Lord gave them the "keys of the kingdom," and by the gift of his Spirit fitted them to be the founders and governors of his church ( Jhn 14:16 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#16),17 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#17),26 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#26); 15:26 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#26),27 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#27); 16:7 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn016.html#7)-15 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn016.html#15)). To them, as representing his church, he gave the commission to "preach the gospel to every creature" ( Mat 28:18 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat028.html#18)-20 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat028.html#20)). After his ascension he communicated to them, according to his promise, supernatural gifts to qualify them for the discharge of their duties ( Act 2:4 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act002.html#4); 1Cr 2:16 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#16); 2:7 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#7),10 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#10),13 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#13); 2Cr 5:20 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr005.html#20); 1Cr 11:2 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr011.html#2))."

That's taken from another website as the definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary. What we learned in our Bible Study at church is that the apostles are in charge of planting the seeds to the new church. They go out and start the new church and then they are in charge of making sure that things run smoothly. They may be in charge of several churches in an area and they have the duty of coming in and correcting things if something is wrong.

First and foremost they must be able to preach the Word of God. They cannot start a church without being able to spread the Good News of the Gospel. In a nutshell they are the ones who start and plant new churches and monitor them to keep things running.

I'm sure others can give more detailed descriptions and add to what I've posted. Hope that helps.

[pdfiddler]

This is great! I want to hear more.:thumbsup:

[tturt]

ranyhyn agree with what you posted with one slight modification.

Several churches I know operate under the five fold ministry. Apostles do "oversee" churches. Usually they have regular meetings and the ministers of the churches they oversee can contact them if there are any problems. They don't tell the churches exactly how to do things. They offer advice based on God's Word, experiences, and what the Lord is telling them. Some of them are paid while others aren't. Yes, they definitely are to know God's Word. Some apostles are also prophets as well as being blessed with several of the spiritual gifts. Since apostles are listed first in the five fold ministry, they are the leadership of the church. Some apostles have churches in other countries and because of circumstances they may be ask to oversee a church that they didn't plant so this is the only modification from ranyhyn's post.

I'll wait until the thread starts addressing the prophets before posting on that b/c at this point it seems to be emphasizing apostles.

[talitha]

There is not complete agreement upon what apostles are because of abuse of their authority in the past and then a widespread bogus claim that this gift had "passed" or "ceased" along with prophecy. People gifted in this area often berate themselves for being too much in other ministers' business, at least in their thought life - but the Lord really is showing them how things would be better structured, because that is their real gifting. The man with the title of "senior pastor" at my church is IMHO really a called apostle. He is the fore-runner of a movement that is calling together other non-denominational pastors in fellowship and mutual submission, along with their churches. I also have a close friend that I think is beginning to move in the apostolic. She and her husband opened their home for a discipleship group, and people from a variety of backgrounds have been coming together. Very interesting to see what the Lord is doing there.

[JDIBe]

This may not be the most detailed or the most exact answer but here goes.

In the early church there were of course the original 12 apostles. Jesus gave them charge to go out and build the church.

"It is, however, generally used as designating the body of disciples to whom he intrusted the organization of his church and the dissemination of his gospel, "the twelve," as they are called ( Mat 10:1 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat010.html#1)-5 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat010.html#5); Mar 3:14 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar003.html#14); 6:7 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar006.html#7); Luk 6:13 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk006.html#13); 9:1 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk009.html#1))"

"Our Lord gave them the "keys of the kingdom," and by the gift of his Spirit fitted them to be the founders and governors of his church ( Jhn 14:16 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#16),17 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#17),26 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#26); 15:26 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#26),27 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#27); 16:7 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn016.html#7)-15 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn016.html#15)). To them, as representing his church, he gave the commission to "preach the gospel to every creature" ( Mat 28:18 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat028.html#18)-20 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat028.html#20)). After his ascension he communicated to them, according to his promise, supernatural gifts to qualify them for the discharge of their duties ( Act 2:4 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act002.html#4); 1Cr 2:16 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#16); 2:7 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#7),10 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#10),13 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#13); 2Cr 5:20 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr005.html#20); 1Cr 11:2 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr011.html#2))."

That's taken from another website as the definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary.


See, I'm with you up until here........


What we learned in our Bible Study at church is that the apostles are in charge of planting the seeds to the new church. They go out and start the new church and then they are in charge of making sure that things run smoothly. They may be in charge of several churches in an area and they have the duty of coming in and correcting things if something is wrong.

First and foremost they must be able to preach the Word of God. They cannot start a church without being able to spread the Good News of the Gospel. In a nutshell they are the ones who start and plant new churches and monitor them to keep things running.

I'm sure others can give more detailed descriptions and add to what I've posted. Hope that helps.

.......and you lost me. :)

We support missionaries that do essentially the same thing, but if you called them an apostle, they would look at you funny. That and I can't find any reference to "apostles" in early church history or beyond besides the original 12 (13 :) ). The closest I can find is the term "Apostolic Fathers" but that was a term coined in the 1600's to refer to the early church fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles (proper) and they didn't seem to refer to themselves or each other in that way (as far as I know).

I would be interested in knowing just what was taught in your bible study that would lead to the conclusion there is an office of "apostle" today. That is where I seem to be disconnecting here. BTW, just because I don't understand the last half of your post doesn't mean I'm not grateful for the effort. Thanks.

[ranyhyn]

They don't tell the churches exactly how to do things. They offer advice based on God's Word, experiences, and what the Lord is telling them.

You are correct in that they don't tell the churches what to do. I misspoke there and what you've said is what I meant to say. I chose the wrong words. What I meant was if they are overseeing a church and that church has gotten out of line with God's teachings they have the authority and ability to come in and correct things. They offer guidance to help correct something that is wrong.

[ranyhyn]

See, I'm with you up until here........



.......and you lost me. :)

We support missionaries that do essentially the same thing, but if you called them an apostle, they would look at you funny. That and I can't find any reference to "apostles" in early church history or beyond besides the original 12 (13 :) ). The closest I can find is the term "Apostolic Fathers" but that was a term coined in the 1600's to refer to the early church fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles (proper) and they didn't seem to refer to themselves or each other in that way (as far as I know).

I would be interested in knowing just what was taught in your bible study that would lead to the conclusion there is an office of "apostle" today. That is where I seem to be disconnecting here. BTW, just because I don't understand the last half of your post doesn't mean I'm not grateful for the effort. Thanks.

Well I did miss one of the studies for apostles. I just caught the beginning of the part on apostles. I would have to go to my pastor and see what notes he was using and get his input.

During the study I was given the impression that there are kind of differing levels so to speak of apostles. Jesus being the chief apostle since He essentially started the church. Then the next level were the original 12 that were commissioned. And now we're in like the 3rd phase/level. The missionaries being part of this along with others. He did specifically mention missionaries as being part of it. I guess there isn't a clearly defined answer as to what an apostle would be today.

[J4Jesus]

I don't think the Lord has changed His mind and I believe the 5 fold ministry is for today


Ephesians 4:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

And to answer another question on here. Yes there is a differnce in a prophet and one who prophesys. Paul said he wished all of us would prophesy, which is simply prophesy. But he also said not all are prophets: that is a person who is called to be a prophet. We all have different callings in life

[tturt]

It seems that the five fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit are being interwined in this thread. From a previous post where it was talking about the spiritual gifts not being passed on, just means that the Lord selects who is going to in the five fold ministry and who is given what gift. In other words, a father can't pass being an apostle to a biological or spiritual son.

Did we cover apostles adequately?

[Nadiine]

It seems that the five fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit are being interwined in this thread. From a previous post where it was talking about the spiritual gifts not being passed on, just means that the Lord selects who is going to in the five fold ministry and who is given what gift. In other words, a father can't pass being an apostle to a biological or spiritual son.

Did we cover apostles adequately?

That's becuz the title of the thread and the details of the post list 2 different focuses.

Prophets & the 5fold ministry...

I made the "mistake" of claiming in an earlier thread that I thought the USA was beyond the hearing of any prophets today (refusing all correction & refusal of accepting responsibility for wrongs).
And that due to refusal to repent for wrongdoing (or admit to sin) leaves God no other alternative but to send His hand of judgment on a nation that fails to heed correction.

I never said Prophets didn't exist, I said that the people REFUSE TO HEAR the prophets.
Just as Israel did in it's past, when God had to resort to Judgment to get them to turn back to Him.

Whether we have prophets or not today, I don't even think is the issue. People are more and more rebellious to truth and God's commands and living in perpetual sin & immorality without repentance or remorse for it.

You don't need a prophet to turn to GOD & repent, a prophet is a LAST RESORT before judgment falls.

[JDIBe]

It seems that the five fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit are being interwined in this thread. From a previous post where it was talking about the spiritual gifts not being passed on, just means that the Lord selects who is going to in the five fold ministry and who is given what gift. In other words, a father can't pass being an apostle to a biological or spiritual son.

Did we cover apostles adequately?

Well not for me. I'm still sketchy on...

1. Where the Scriptures state that being an apostle is a title that would be passed on?
2. How one knows one is an apostle?
3. How an apostle differs from a missionary according to the Bible?
4. Where are the apostles of the early 2nd century and beyond? If there are "levels" of apostles, doesn't it follow that you can't have a "level four" if there is no "level three"?
5. Whether or not these apostles have the authority to write or determine Scripture.

What ultimately concerns me here is taking Biblical terms and redefining them anyway you want leads to the ability to make the Bible say anything you want, not just what it says. I don't think that's such a good thing.

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)

But if i'm the only one not understanding the apostle thing, please continue on. I don't want to hold up the discussion.

BTW, gifts were passed on to others by laying on of hands by the Apostles in the 1st Century.

[talitha]

1. Where the Scriptures state that being an apostle is a title that would be passed on? What I'm not clear on is where the Scriptures state that apostles alone out of the Ephesians 4:11 gifts would NOT continue to exist. There are definitely apostles other than the original ones mentioned in the Bible - for example, Paul (Romans 11:13, et.al)! Also Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7). Where does one draw the line? The Bible does not draw a line.

2. How one knows one is an apostle? Apostles carry a certain level of authority that others do not carry. I believe that you know you're a pastor if you have sheep, and you know you're an apostle if you are able to impart ministry, understand the interworkings of a church body, and find that other ministers seek out your wisdom. It also seems to me that many signs and manifestations follow true apostles (2 Cor.12:12). Oh, and then there are the sufferings..... (see 2 Cor.11)

3. How an apostle differs from a missionary according to the Bible? An apostle can be and often is a missionary. But a regular missionary will not be in a foundation-laying position in the church-plant, and will not find himself imparting ministry. He/she probably won't have as many signs and manifestations following him. I have been involved in church-planting, but that doesn't make me an apostle; however, the man who began that work in South-Central Siberia that actually continues to this day - I believe he's an apostle. In this way (among others) an apostle is like a father. He begets something that continues to live.

4. Where are the apostles of the early 2nd century and beyond? As I said before, I know some apostles. It's not that unusual. If there are "levels" of apostles, doesn't it follow that you can't have a "level four" if there is no "level three"? I'm not sure what is meant by "levels" of apostles.

5. Whether or not these apostles have the authority to write or determine Scripture. I don't see that authority written in Scripture.

What ultimately concerns me here is taking Biblical terms and redefining them anyway you want leads to the ability to make the Bible say anything you want, not just what it says. I don't think that's such a good thing.
Agreed. I think that happened in the RC church (with all due respect).

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)
Okay, so now you're equating women with household pets and the spawn of Satan? I'm sorry, but that is nothing short of offensive! I take the qualification of an Elder "husband of one wife" to exclude polygamists and adulterers.

But if i'm the only one not understanding the apostle thing, please continue on. I don't want to hold up the discussion. I'm sure you're not. Most people in your denomination (and certain others) do not understand it.

BTW, gifts were passed on to others by laying on of hands by the Apostles in the 1st Century. I'm pretty sure this is not the only way people received spiritual gifts! It certainly isn't today! But then, you're a cessationist, right?

[Nadiine]

I don't think the Lord has changed His mind and I believe the 5 fold ministry is for today


Ephesians 4:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

And to answer another question on here. Yes there is a differnce in a prophet and one who prophesys. Paul said he wished all of us would prophesy, which is simply prophesy. But he also said not all are prophets: that is a person who is called to be a prophet. We all have different callings in life

I agree with your post, and I don't understand why anyone would claim evangelism is "gone" today? :doh:

Prophets did more in the way of warning of sin and proclaiming God's truth to a nation/people who were in rebellion & turning away from God.
Not a real popular gift in today's church is it?:swoon:

[Flame]

I think some "gifts" do exist today, but some do not exist in the same form as the first century.

I think my question was a valid one. The question was "Does the five-fold ministry still exist as in the 1st Century church?". I don't see any Apostles around (unless the definition of "Apostle" is radically different from which I am thinking...) so I would have to say, no it does not. Now if we want to discuss "5-1" that might be worth persuing, but the Lord's Church does operate under different circumstances than in the 1st Century.

I think you are right when you say prophets did more than just predict random events. Someone once said that prophets "forth-told" as much as they "fore-told". For example, OT prophets told the people how things were, and how God felt about what they were doing. And that is a (I would argue THE) major part of being a prophet.

Which brings up an interesting question: Without naming names, how often must a "Prophet of God" be right in his/her predictions to be considered a "Prophet"? Always? 99%? 90%? 75%? 50%?
I would think that if you believed that prophesy still exists in the 1st century form that would be a very important question to consider. Otherwise, how do you know this person comes from God? And an even scarier thought, "How do you know that what they are saying comes from God?"?
The scriptures clearly state that God is the same yesterday, today, & forever. I would offer out that neither God nor his gifts have changed. The world however has changed thereby the way Gods gifts are used have conformed to the worlds changes. Example: Prophets used to minister to nations and not individuals. Todaqy if someone stood and said i have a message from God to the United States, He (or she) would be comitted, scrutinyzed, and in general torn apart in the press. Therefore prophets now operate on a different scale such as to individuals and chuches. As for how you know if they are real, another gift is mentioned in the Bible. That gift being desrnment. As for how many times being right5, IF a prophet is a true prophet, and can keep his own opinions from getting in the way, he won't be wrong.

[Nadiine]

The scriptures clearly state that God is the same yesterday, today, & forever. I would offer out that neither God nor his gifts have changed. The world however has changed thereby the way Gods gifts are used have conformed to the worlds changes. Example: Prophets used to minister to nations and not individuals. Todaqy if someone stood and said i have a message from God to the United States, He (or she) would be comitted, scrutinyzed, and in general torn apart in the press. Therefore prophets now operate on a different scale such as to individuals and chuches. As for how you know if they are real, another gift is mentioned in the Bible. That gift being desrnment. As for how many times being right5, IF a prophet is a true prophet, and can keep his own opinions from getting in the way, he won't be wrong.

I agree with w/ most of your post.

I agree God doesn't change, nor do His gifts, but His methods change and so did His covenants.

And I agree that Prophets are mostly to entire nations. Do we know of any prophets who warn the USA? I know John Hagee has spoken of these types of things (but he's laughed at).
I don't believe prophecy is "foretelling' anymore becuz God has already given us His FULL revelation.
The mysteries are already revealed.
I'm always leary of 'fortellers' & to date, I know of none who have been 100% correct in their prophecies.

Prophets mainly exhort people to obey and seek the Lord imo. (and they were never popular).

[Flame]

I agree with w/ most of your post.

I agree God doesn't change, nor do His gifts, but His methods change and so did His covenants.

And I agree that Prophets are mostly to entire nations. Do we know of any prophets who warn the USA? I know John Hagee has spoken of these types of things (but he's laughed at).
I don't believe prophecy is "foretelling' anymore becuz God has already given us His FULL revelation.
The mysteries are already revealed.
I'm always leary of 'fortellers' & to date, I know of none who have been 100% correct in their prophecies.

Prophets mainly exhort people to obey and seek the Lord imo. (and they were never popular).
I guess what i was trying to say didn't get fully across. I apologize for not being clear enough. But we are saying the same things. You example of John is a good one. But i'm sure you have noticed the Government isn't listening. God is not a point of consideration for Government anymore and IF i politicion proclaims his belief until recently it hurt him. The bad part is, I can see the same thing having happened in Soddum and Gomarha. (Forgove spelling)

[JDIBe]

What ultimately concerns me here is taking Biblical terms and redefining them anyway you want leads to the ability to make the Bible say anything you want, not just what it says. I don't think that's such a good thing.
Agreed. I think that happened in the RC church (with all due respect).


No offense taken, but please elaborate.


For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)
Okay, so now you're equating women with household pets and the spawn of Satan? I'm sorry, but that is nothing short of offensive! I take the qualification of an Elder "husband of one wife" to exclude polygamists and adulterers.


I don't know why you are offended. I did not mention women at all in this statement and certainly not equating them with household pets. I still stand by my original statement about cats though....;) ;) :)


BTW, gifts were passed on to others by laying on of hands by the Apostles in the 1st Century. I'm pretty sure this is not the only way people received spiritual gifts! It certainly isn't today! But then, you're a cessationist, right?

Yes, I believe certain gifts are without meaning today as we have the full revelation of the Gospel. There is quite a bit in the Scriptures to support that view and historical evidence backs that up very clearly.

After some quick searching on the forum I found there is a thread in the Anabaptist forum dealing with Apostles. (Not started or contributed to by me in any way.) Is the information in this thread accurate as to the beginning of the Apostolic Movement? The concept seems to be a rather modern movement.

[Flame]

No offense taken, but please elaborate.



I don't know why you are offended. I did not mention women at all in this statement and certainly not equating them with household pets. I still stand by my original statement about cats though....;) ;) :)



Yes, I believe certain gifts are without meaning today as we have the full revelation of the Gospel. There is quite a bit in the Scriptures to support that view and historical evidence backs that up very clearly.

After some quick searching on the forum I found there is a thread in the Anabaptist forum dealing with Apostles. (Not started or contributed to by me in any way.) Is the information in this thread accurate as to the beginning of the Apostolic Movement? The concept seems to be a rather modern movement.
who has full revelation and understanding? In my belief, no one. and even if full revelation is true there are no uses for the gifts anymore??

[TamaraLynne]

I was told by God in a dream that I was an apostle.

I'm not extremely intelligent and I don't know all there is to know. I do know that I am formed by God. I am who I am because of him. Sometimes I keep thinking I need to become more intelligent .......that I need to know more and more in order for God to use me. Like a clay pot trying to form itself................how silly of me.

God has formed us and does use us just the way we are. I probably will never be someone important in the worlds eyes................and the role God has planned for me might be small to some..................

when foundations are laid...........you can't have pieces missing. And some who have been called to be apostles will see how some parts of the truth are not being taught..................

Like I said...................I feel pretty small........and I don't know exactly how God is going to use me.........but I will take it one day at a time as I keep my eyes on Jesus.

Love
Tam

[JDIBe]

who has full revelation and understanding? In my belief, no one. and even if full revelation is true there are no uses for the gifts anymore??

Each of us may not have full understanding of it, but the Word of God is complete and perfect. That is the source we go to.

There are plenty of uses for some gifts, (teaching, etc.) and I agree they still are in use today. However, miraculous gifts seemed to have one purpose: to verify that what the speaker said came from God. ("....for the Jews require a sign...")

Think about it.

If someone spoke something, how would you verify it? Well, you would look for a sign and check to see if it lined up with the Scriptures. But if it lined up with the Scriptures, why would you need a sign?
And even worse, what would happen if there was a sign and IT DIDN'T line up with Scripture? Who do you believe then? If you say Scripture, then you're right back where you started.

Please don't take what I say as I don't believe the Holy Spirit is INCAPABLE of working this way today. I'm only saying, in my experience and reading through the history of the Church, He appears to work in a "quieter" way through individuals today. God is the same today as yesterday, but HOW He works with His people has changed throughout the ages. (no sabbath, sabbath, no sabbath again, levitical priests, no levitical priests, animal sacrifices, no animal sacrifices, no tongues, tongues)

I have a friend who left our church to start his own. He claims to speak to the H.S. directly and prophesy. I asked him once, "Have you ever gotten a revelation that was NOT from God?" He told me yes. Making the assumption that what he says is true for a second, that scares me.

Particularly when some "Prophet" has a history of missing quite often with vague predictions. (seems like most prophesies in the Bible were very specific) Kind of makes me wonder if it was just personal opinion getting in the way or something much worse...

[Flame]

Each of us may not have full understanding of it, but the Word of God is complete and perfect. That is the source we go to.

There are plenty of uses for some gifts, (teaching, etc.) and I agree they still are in use today. However, miraculous gifts seemed to have one purpose: to verify that what the speaker said came from God. ("....for the Jews require a sign...")

Think about it.

If someone spoke something, how would you verify it? Well, you would look for a sign and check to see if it lined up with the Scriptures. But if it lined up with the Scriptures, why would you need a sign?
And even worse, what would happen if there was a sign and IT DIDN'T line up with Scripture? Who do you believe then? If you say Scripture, then you're right back where you started.

Please don't take what I say as I don't believe the Holy Spirit is INCAPABLE of working this way today. I'm only saying, in my experience and reading through the history of the Church, He appears to work in a "quieter" way through individuals today. God is the same today as yesterday, but HOW He works with His people has changed throughout the ages. (no sabbath, sabbath, no sabbath again, levitical priests, no levitical priests, animal sacrifices, no animal sacrifices, no tongues, tongues)

I have a friend who left our church to start his own. He claims to speak to the H.S. directly and prophesy. I asked him once, "Have you ever gotten a revelation that was NOT from God?" He told me yes. Making the assumption that what he says is true for a second, that scares me.

Particularly when some "Prophet" has a history of missing quite often with vague predictions. (seems like most prophesies in the Bible were very specific) Kind of makes me wonder if it was just personal opinion getting in the way or something much worse...
Ok, then lets go through the five one at a time. You tell if you think it is still in play or not and why. This could be fun and i belive would be good. It is my belief they are all still in play today and i believe i can give examples of each. I think we both already agree on teaching obviously we know that one still exists. While i agree on a major level, prophecy has rather become fortelling which as you say we already through the word know what will happen, I believe it exists on a smaller scale, more individual then national.

[Nadiine]

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)


Hey, you must be a prophet! have you met my cats or something? :P

I've already been on a thread similar to this & frankly I don't see anyone on either side coming up with convincing enough arguments to entirely prove their position well enough to sway me either way.

I see evangelism, teaching & preaching alive & well today... I'd be more interested in just the prophet & apostleship positions in this thread than trying to say ALL of them are entirely removed.

How about some clearcut definitions of what a prophet & apostle is & does after Christ's full revelation is given?

[JDIBe]

Ok, then lets go through the five one at a time. You tell if you think it is still in play or not and why. This could be fun and i belive would be good. It is my belief they are all still in play today and i believe i can give examples of each. I think we both already agree on teaching obviously we know that one still exists. While i agree on a major level, prophecy has rather become fortelling which as you say we already through the word know what will happen, I believe it exists on a smaller scale, more individual then national.

Ok. Sounds good to me. I've got to tell you my current beliefs seem to line up pretty well with Nadiine's above, though.

Pick one, any one and let's get started...:)

[Flame]

Ok. Sounds good to me. I've got to tell you my current beliefs seem to line up pretty well with Nadiine's above, though.

Pick one, any one and let's get started...:)
The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."

The

[Flame]

Ok. Sounds good to me. I've got to tell you my current beliefs seem to line up pretty well with Nadiine's above, though.

Pick one, any one and let's get started...:)
The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."

The easiest way to proceed would be to spell out which ones you think on longer exist.

[JDIBe]

Well, I would have to say at this point...

I definately don't believe Apostles exist and...
The gift of prophesy still exists, but not in the overt, miraculous way it did in the 1st century.

Evangelists, pastors, and teachers definately are with us today and have been continuously from the 1st Century to today.

So I guess that's a 3.5 out of 5.

[TamaraLynne]

Hmmmmm............I saw Jesus as operating in all the offices. And with Jesus living in us then I would say that we as indivduals through faith would be operating in all the offices to some degree. But we are given an office that we operate the strongest in..........because that is how God made us. And then we all come together as a body(church) and join together the parts.......eyes,ears,hands,feet,etc..........and when we all work together..........we all grow as individuals(saints)

But I could be wrong......I have never heard anyone talk of this.........just my thoughts as I read about the offices.

[tturt]

Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[tturt]

posted: "He claims to speak to the H.S. directly and prophesy."

The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us - some are better at listening than others. Private worship time is an excellent time to give our undivided attention to the Lord and listen to what He has to say.

[Nadiine]

Hmmmmm............I saw Jesus as operating in all the offices. And with Jesus living in us then I would say that we as indivduals through faith would be operating in all the offices to some degree. But we are given an office that we operate the strongest in..........because that is how God made us. And then we all come together as a body(church) and join together the parts.......eyes,ears,hands,feet,etc..........and when we all work together..........we all grow as individuals(saints)

But I could be wrong......I have never heard anyone talk of this.........just my thoughts as I read about the offices.

I'd like to be able to go along with this line of thought, but if it were valid, we'd also be doing the same miracles Jesus did... etc.

The verse also says He gave some to be apostles,..... not all. But I think we should be focusing on what we KNOW we are : Ambassadors of Christ. Our daily witness for Him is important. Are we operating in that knowledge?
We all want LOFTY positions in God's army, but what are we doing with the simpler positions we already have? Are we worthy of bearing His Holy name? [I](to whom much is given, much is required)

But all of us having different positions/gifts fits perfectly with the body parts; how we're all one body with MANY different parts that all work together in our different gifts.
We aren't all apostles, or all healers, or teachers etc.
:angel:

[JDIBe]

Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Wouldn't this apply to Elders (Overseers, Pastors, Bishops) whose qualifications are mentioned in I Ti 3:1-7 and Tit 1:5-9?

Acts 20:17-28

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time,
19 serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews;
20 how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house,
21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 save that the Holy Spirit testifieth unto me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But I hold not my life of any account as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God.
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

[pdfiddler]

I'll chime in. "FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF SERVICE,TO THE BUILDING UP OF THE BODY OF CHRIST;UNTIL WE ALL ATTAIN TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH,AND OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD,TO A MATURE MAN,TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE,WHICH BELONGS TO THE FULNESS OF CHRIST. I thought I would spell this out since most of you seem to be missing this part. Are the saints fully equipped ? Is the work of service finished? Is the body of Christ built up? Have we all attained to the unity? Do we all have the faith? Do we all have knowledge of the son of God?( some here seem to claim they do ,by there posts anyway) Are we all mature? Do we all have the stature, Do we all have the fullness of Christ?(again, a few here seem to be claiming they do,unless I read it wrong) What say you?

[Nadiine]

I'll chime in. "FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF SERVICE,TO THE BUILDING UP OF THE BODY OF CHRIST;UNTIL WE ALL ATTAIN TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH,AND OFTHE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD,TO A MATURE MAN,TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE,WHICH BELONGS TO THE FULNESS OF CHRIST. I thought I would spell this out sinse most of you seem to be missing this part. Are the saints fully equiped ? Is the work of service finished? Is the body of Christ built up? Have we all attained to the unity? Do we all have the faith? Do we all have knowledge of the son of God?( some here seem to claim they do ,by there posts anyway) Are we all mature? Do we all have the stature, Do we all have the fullness of Christ?(again, a few here seem to be claiming they do,unless I read it wrong) What say you?

Why do I feel like I'm being egged on to debate this?

To me, debate should be a natural flow by those in it; not cold prompting to STEER ME in a desired direction.
It feels baited or like I'm a circus animal jumping thru a hoop or something.
:tutu: :doh:

I think I'll unsubscribe.

[TamaraLynne]

I would say no..........we are not yet fully equipped........I know I struggle. But as I struggle I am still filled with joy because God is with me. I hunger for all of us to move into the offices God has appointed for us.......

I know some churches operate more fully in the offices...........but I have noticed where I am from the pastor seems to try to do it all. But I encounter walls from everyone it seems.

Sorry.......................just what I have been feeling.

Love
Tam

[TamaraLynne]

I haven't been doing my part either

[pdfiddler]

Nadiine- Again,you're not the center of this thread. I'm talking to all who will listen here. Chill!:)

[Nadiine]

Nadiine- Again,you're not the center of this thread. I'm talking to all who will listen here. Chill!:)

I am chilled Pd, I didn't imply or claim that I was the center of this thread, nor would I want to be.
I stated my opinion on it like you have.
thank u

[pdfiddler]

More than a position or a man,they are all attributes of the fulness of Christ himself,not titles. A man in any givin day or week could minister as a apostle to some there or a prophet to others here. Maybe a shepherd to that one there. An avangelist to a group over there somewhere and to teach here to another group of people,all in the same week. Someone else may only have a calling in one or two of these attributes(or gifts). He does say He doesn't give it all to any one man (or woman). Yes, I do believe a woman can have any one of these ministries except apostle.The office of a apostle is a fathering ministry.

[tturt]

I Posted: Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

JDIBe: yes, agree this verse applies to everyone in the five fold ministry. I posted it without elaborating because some people would say I’m changing the scripture. Some people want to see the word (in this case overseer) right there in the scripture otherwise they don’t think it’s accurate.

Pdfiddler: didn’t realize that “equipping saints” needed to be stated - this is the movement that God is extending to the church currently b/c this is one way the church prepares for the revival.

[JDIBe]

[F Posted: Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:[/FONT]

[F 20:28[/FONT][F Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]

[F yes, agree this verse applies to everyone in the five fold ministry. I posted it without elaborating because some people would say I’m changing the scripture. Some people want to see the word (in this case overseer) right there in the scripture otherwise they don’t think it’s accurate.[/FONT]


tturt,

I don't think you're trying to change the Scripture and I appreciate you (all of you actually) taking the time to use it to prove your point. The version I am quoting (ASV) uses the word "bishop" which is synonomous with "elder" and "overseer" but not imo, Apostle. Notice the context, especially verse 17...

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church. (your version disciples...)

Who is Paul speaking to here? They are not the Apostles, they are not at Ephesus. v28 is directed to these same people in v17, who are the Elders of the churches around Ephesus. So if anything, you could make the case that v28 applies to Elders, but not Apostles.

From what I'm seeing, there were the 12 Apostles (actually 14 now that I think about it) and then nothing is ever mentioned about them again until the mid 1990's. How am I supposed to believe this is not a man-made "office" with a Biblical name when it is only 10 years old? Do you see my problem?

[tturt]

I haven't studied church history but looking at the apostles' responsibilities:
1. preach the gospel (Rom. 15:20),
2. plant churches (1Co 3:10),
3. prayed, fasted, and selected church officials (Acts 14:21-23),
4. clarified foundation (Gal 1:7),
5. promoted unity (Eph. 4:1-16), &
6. signs and wonders (2 Cor. 12:12).

Isn't this what the top church officials do today - no matter what their "title?"

[JDIBe]

I haven't studied church history but looking at the apostles' responsibilities:
1. preach the gospel (Rom. 15:20),
2. plant churches (1Co 3:10),
3. prayed, fasted, and selected church officials (Acts 14:21-23),
4. clarified foundation (Gal 1:7),
5. promoted unity (Eph. 4:1-16), &
6. signs and wonders (2 Cor. 12:12).

Isn't this what the top church officials do today - no matter what their "title?"



But to that list you also have to add the qualification found in Acts 1:15-22....

15 And in these days Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren, and said (and there was a multitude of persons gathered together, about a hundred and twenty),
16 Brethren, it was needful that the Scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spake before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered among us, and received his portion in this ministry.
18 (Now this man obtained a field with the reward of his iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it became known to all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch that in their language that field was called Akeldama, that is, The field of blood.)
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be made desolate, And let no man dwell therein: and, His office let another take.
21 Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us,
22 beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection.

....and I Cor 9:1

1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?

Apparently, one of the requirements was you had to be an eye-witness to Jesus and His Minstry. I don't think there are any left alive that fulfill this qualification.

So although the men you describe would be doing great and valuable things, I don't think you could call them Apostles.

[tturt]

Paul in Romans 1:1 declared that he was an apostle yet he did not see Jesus when he was in human form.

Also, from all the items listed as responsibilities, there is nothing to indicate that those were to stop when the original apostles died so therefore, there has to be church leadership regardless of the title. So based on those scriptures the office isn't man-made.

This has been discussed since the very beginning so I'm sure it will be discussed til the end of time.

Whenever someone is ready, let's discuss prophets and prophecy.

[JDIBe]

[F Antiqua]Paul in Romans 1:1 declared that he was an apostle yet he did not see Jesus when he was in human form.[/FONT]

[F Antiqua]Also, from all the items listed as responsibilities, there is nothing to indicate that those were to stop when the original apostles died so therefore, there has to be church leadership regardless of the title. So based on those scriptures the office isn't man-made.[/FONT]

[F Antiqua]This has been discussed since the very beginning so I'm sure it will be discussed til the end of time. [/FONT]

[F Antiqua] Whenever someone is ready, let's discuss prophets and prophecy.[/FONT]
But he did see Him and was chosen specifically by Him.

I Cor 9:1

1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?

I agree there has to be church leadership. That is what Elders and Deacons are for. Qualifications for those are clearly laid out in the NT. No such list for the continuation of apostles. As for your statement that this has been discussed from the very beginning, this is what I have been looking for. It HASN'T been discussed from the very beginning. That's one of my difficulties with this. Don't you think it would have? The thread on the Anabaptist forum seems to indicate it originated in the mid 1990's (or at the earliest, 1940's). Anybody, give me something (anything) that shows me any sort of succession of Apostles in early church history or beyond I could look at. Anything.

But I don't wish to hold the discussion up. Feel free to PM me anything else relevant to my concerns.

[noholdsbarred]

My mom has been prophessied to in the past, both were the same prophesy, and now it is starting to come true. On two separate occassions she was told she and my father would preach around the world, and now my parents are getting involved with a missions group and in Feb my dad is going to Etheopia.

lol i like your avatar!

The Five Fold Ministry lives in the true believer in Christ. These particular disciples/believers will teach the true doctrines of the Living God to all persons, for it will be Christ himself who speaks.

Thank you for your question.

nhb

[Flame]

Well, I would have to say at this point...

I definately don't believe Apostles exist and...
The gift of prophesy still exists, but not in the overt, miraculous way it did in the 1st century.

Evangelists, pastors, and teachers definately are with us today and have been continuously from the 1st Century to today.

So I guess that's a 3.5 out of 5.
O.K., as to Apostles, I think they still exist. Granted, they can not travel with Jesus as the 12 did. But, i do know people who are in my opinion Apotles. They follow and live by his every word. I consider myself to be a follower of Christ. I however am no where near these individuals. The other thing to consider is this. We see things in our own line of vision. What we see around us and in the news. Most of what we see and hear takes place in our own country. We MUST consider, the Scriptures are all encompassing. Meaning the lessons and stories contained within came from varying countries and locations and compiled in a registry of events if you will. How do we know in fact what is going on in remote areas of the Earth? Example: There is a small country in Africa, the name slips my mind right now however, A man claiming to be a profit of God in the late 80's, prophisied to the King that IF the King and his people would give their hearts to God, God would end the drought in this country. The King agreed, and decreed that this was now a nation of and under God. The drought ended. Surrounding countries are to this day still in drought. I would say that a true prophet was on earth in the 80's!

[JDIBe]

O.K., as to Apostles, I think they still exist. Granted, they can not travel with Jesus as the 12 did. But, i do know people who are in my opinion Apotles. They follow and live by his every word. I consider myself to be a follower of Christ. I however am no where near these individuals. The other thing to consider is this. We see things in our own line of vision. What we see around us and in the news. Most of what we see and hear takes place in our own country. We MUST consider, the Scriptures are all encompassing. Meaning the lessons and stories contained within came from varying countries and locations and compiled in a registry of events if you will. How do we know in fact what is going on in remote areas of the Earth? Example: There is a small country in Africa, the name slips my mind right now however, A man claiming to be a profit of God in the late 80's, prophisied to the King that IF the King and his people would give their hearts to God, God would end the drought in this country. The King agreed, and decreed that this was now a nation of and under God. The drought ended. Surrounding countries are to this day still in drought. I would say that a true prophet was on earth in the 80's!

I know some people like you describe. They are wonderful people, but that doesn't make them Apostles. Apostle is not an honorary title. It is a description of people in the past. So far I still haven't got a clear list of qualifications as to what makes an Apostle an Apostle or any historical evidence of them. I know there are people out there that we are all in awe of. To give them the honor we wish to bestow we might call them an Apostle because it is the highest honor we can think of. But that doesn't make them an Apostle. It just makes them really good people. They aren't any less great without the title.

[tturt]

When Matthias was selected to be the 13th apostle, this indicates that apostles were to continue. He was a discipline then became an apostle. This indicates that apostles were the church leadership. Act 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Why do that if apostles weren't suppose to continue after the original ones died?

When the church became the Catholic church -

This isn't meant to be a dissertion on the Catholic church nor is this meant as a slam against any group of believers.

After reviewing Roman Catholic history and what various popes did while they were in office wasn't Christ-like:
1. In relationship to Wycliffe, “ The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!” http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-wycliffe.html (http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-wycliffe.html)
2. John Huss: “One of his pamphlets stated, “…that no pope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope) or bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop) had the right to take up the sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword) in the name of the Church; he should pray for his enemies and bless those that curse him; man obtains forgiveness of sins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin) by real repentance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance), not through money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money).”
3. The custom had arisen, at celebrations of the Lord's Supper, of distributing the consecrated bread to all Christians in good standing who desired to receive it, but restricting the chalice to the celebrant alone. Huss denounced this restriction as contrary to Holy Scripture and to the ancient tradition of the Church.
4. He also held that Church officials ought to exercise spiritual powers only, and not be earthly governors.
5. Matters came to a head when one claimant (later declared unfit) proclaimed a sale of indulgences to raise money for a war against his rivals. Huss was horrified at the idea of selling spiritual benefits to finance a war between two claimants to the title "Servant of the Servants of God," and said so. http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/7.html (http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/7.html)

I can see why the title "apostle" was dropped.

Additionally, why hold apostles and prophets in suspect and then accept teachers, pastors and evangelists? The basic responsibilities haven't changed. Plenty of teachers, pastors, and evangelists have made mistakes as well AS have we ALL.

Also, whether church leadership is called "apostle" or not, whether the five fold ministry has been observed through the centuries or not, does not relieve us of the responsibility today.

[tturt]

These are the Apostles' responsibilities – may be more but at least these:
1. preach the gospel such as Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
2. plant churches such as 1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
3. prayed, fasted, and selected church officials such as Act 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
4. clarified foundation such as Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
5. promoted unity such as Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
6. signs and wonders 2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

[JDIBe]

When Matthias was selected to be the 13th apostle, this indicates that apostles were to continue. He was a discipline then became an apostle. This indicates that apostles were the church leadership. Act 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Why do that if apostles weren't suppose to continue after the original ones died?


I believe the answer can be found in the underlined portion of the passage I posted in post #64, Acts 1:15-22

1. To fulfill the prophesy of David in the book of Psalms.
2. To join in being an eye-witness of the resurrection of Jesus.

Two questions naturally arise from reading the passage:

1. Are there any other Apostles that David was refering to when he said, "Let his habitation be made desolate, And let no man dwell therein: and, His office let another take."?
2. Are there any candidates today that you can think of that walked the earth with and are an eye-witness to the resurrection of Jesus?

If you can honestly answer "yes" to both of these questions, then ok, I'm with you. Otherwise, I don't think you can make a case for apostolic succession from this passage.



[F New Roman]Additionally, w[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]hy hold apostles and prophets in suspect and then accept teachers, pastors and evangelists? The basic responsibilities haven't changed. Plenty of teachers, pastors, and evangelists have made mistakes as well AS have we ALL.

Also, whether church leadership is called "apostle" or not, whether the five fold ministry has been observed through the centuries or not, does not relieve us of the responsibility today.


BTW, to your list of qualifications/ responsibilities of Apostles, you might add specifically "casting out demons" and "miraculously healing the sick"

Matt 10:1-4

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Why hold Apostles and Prophets in suspect? There are some that would argue miraculous signs are not needed anymore now that we have the Perfect Word of God. There will always be a need for teachers, evangelists, and overseers in the church. I feel all of the responsibilities, except (and some would say including...) the miraculous gifts given to the Apostles and early Christians, can be carried on by the other three.

I guess what really worries me about the whole apostle thing, the thing that really jumps out at me off your qualification list is nos. 3&4...

3. prayed, fasted, and selected church officials (Acts 14:21-23),
4. clarified foundation (Gal 1:7),

It seems to me from looking at the thread on the Anabaptist forum and study on my own, that there is the distinct possibility that there are some who are trying to elevate themselves to a higher position than they ought to have in the Church. By creating this new office, they now claim the authority to "select church officials", and "clarify foundation" (translation: say things equal in authority to Scripture) instead of being subject to them.

Where I perceive the road ends that you have begun to travel is here...

1. "apostles" will claim authority equal to the original ones.
2. What they say is infallible and equal in authority to Scripture. (I would submit this is already beginning among some in the Pentecostal Movement)

As long as what the "apostles" say is in accordance with the Word of God, then I don't really have a problem and I'm not worried about you. HOWEVER, I am concerned there will come a day when an "apostle" will tell you to do something in direct violation of the Scriptures. What will you do then? This is a question you need to consider now before you go any further.

Perhaps none of this will happen. Please don't take this as disparaging your beliefs. Rather take it as a genuine concern for your spiritual well-being. If it comes across any other way, please know it is because of my poor choice of words in expressing myself rather than what is in my heart.

[tturt]

I don't take your input as disparing at all. If an apostle says something that opposes scripture, then they've made a mistake. Is it a different interpretation of scripture than the norm? Sometimes I think our negative experiences cause us to question other things.

Posted: "of that walked the earth with and are an eye-witness to the resurrection of Jesus" Then Paul would not have been an apostle as he stated in Romans 1:1.

posted: "the miraculous gifts given to the Apostles and early Christians, can be carried on by the other three." That's not the order established in God's Word.

The apostles I know do deliverance and pray for healing.

In other discusses, I've ask - What if the Lord audibly spoke and said to you that was His plan for your life?

Of course, you don't have to respond. It is a question I ask myself. Could I faithfully waited 25 years for a baby like Sarah and Abraham was expected to do? Could I have allowed myself to be thrown into a fire like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? etc.

In fact, spending time this weekend researching this, I'm more convinced than ever that apostles and prophets are for today.

[Flame]

I believe the answer can be found in the underlined portion of the passage I posted in post #64, Acts 1:15-22

1. To fulfill the prophesy of David in the book of Psalms.
2. To join in being an eye-witness of the resurrection of Jesus.

Two questions naturally arise from reading the passage:

1. Are there any other Apostles that David was refering to when he said, "Let his habitation be made desolate, And let no man dwell therein: and, His office let another take."?
2. Are there any candidates today that you can think of that walked the earth with and are an eye-witness to the resurrection of Jesus?

If you can honestly answer "yes" to both of these questions, then ok, I'm with you. Otherwise, I don't think you can make a case for apostolic succession from this passage.





BTW, to your list of qualifications/ responsibilities of Apostles, you might add specifically "casting out demons" and "miraculously healing the sick"

Matt 10:1-4

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Why hold Apostles and Prophets in suspect? There are some that would argue miraculous signs are not needed anymore now that we have the Perfect Word of God. There will always be a need for teachers, evangelists, and overseers in the church. I feel all of the responsibilities, except (and some would say including...) the miraculous gifts given to the Apostles and early Christians, can be carried on by the other three.

I guess what really worries me about the whole apostle thing, the thing that really jumps out at me off your qualification list is nos. 3&4...

3. prayed, fasted, and selected church officials (Acts 14:21-23),
4. clarified foundation (Gal 1:7),

It seems to me from looking at the thread on the Anabaptist forum and study on my own, that there is the distinct possibility that there are some who are trying to elevate themselves to a higher position than they ought to have in the Church. By creating this new office, they now claim the authority to "select church officials", and "clarify foundation" (translation: say things equal in authority to Scripture) instead of being subject to them.

Where I perceive the road ends that you have begun to travel is here...

1. "apostles" will claim authority equal to the original ones.
2. What they say is infallible and equal in authority to Scripture. (I would submit this is already beginning among some in the Pentecostal Movement)

As long as what the "apostles" say is in accordance with the Word of God, then I don't really have a problem and I'm not worried about you. HOWEVER, I am concerned there will come a day when an "apostle" will tell you to do something in direct violation of the Scriptures. What will you do then? This is a question you need to consider now before you go any further.

Perhaps none of this will happen. Please don't take this as disparaging your beliefs. Rather take it as a genuine concern for your spiritual well-being. If it comes across any other way, please know it is because of my poor choice of words in expressing myself rather than what is in my heart.
HOWEVER, I am concerned there will come a day when an "apostle" will tell you to do something in direct violation of the Scriptures.

That would be a false Prophet.

[JDIBe]

HOWEVER, I am concerned there will come a day when an "apostle" will tell you to do something in direct violation of the Scriptures.

That would be a false Prophet.

Then if your source of guidance is the Scriptures, why would you need an apostle? Why not go directly to the Scriptures?
:)

It seems to me an Apostle is today redundant, and if subordinate to the Scriptures, not necessary. Back in the 1st century, that was not the case.

[tturt]

posted: "Then if your source of guidance is the Scriptures, why would you need an apostle? Why not go directly to the Scriptures?"

The same could said regarding pastors, teachers and evangelists.

JDIBe, sorry you had such a negative experience with an apostle.

[ChangedHeart]

Well... the biblical viewpoint is this... the gifts of the spirit including the office and ministry of a prophet is still in action for the church today...

The last I checked, the period of the church is still here... so therefore the Holy Ghost is still moving the same today as in the days of the apostles.

All Christians may prophesy... to prophesy is to exhort and edify... whoever does that prophesies. There are still messages to be given to the church... therefore we need prophets who will step up into that ministry or who will let the Holy Ghost lead them to give a message, even if it is only one time.

I am called as a prophet to speak when the Lord tells me, and to be silent when the Lord tells me. That doesn't mean I'm assuming the office of a prophet in the church, but I am willing to say what needs to be said.

But like every gift, some are given to some and some are given to others... and some may have more than one, some may have only one.

[jratter]

We do not have any prophets in the church today because we do not need any. We have the complete scripture.

[Telrunya]

Then if your source of guidance is the Scriptures, why would you need an apostle? Why not go directly to the Scriptures?
:)

It seems to me an Apostle is today redundant, and if subordinate to the Scriptures, not necessary. Back in the 1st century, that was not the case.
How did we get the NT? The teachings in it were checked against the OT. The Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for checking what he said against scripture. The arguement that we dont need Apostles because we have scripture doesn't hold up to scripture.