Apostles in the 21st Century

[MrJim]

So who are they?
Where are they?

I'd always understood that an apostle was one that has physically seen Jesus but maybe I'm not correct.

Wed night bible study is on spiritual gifts and this one is coming up shortly.

We're going to be taking a "test" for spiritual gifts, a test created by C Peter Wagner, the presiding Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles (http://www.apostlesnet.net/index.asp?action=introduction)

from the site:

Invitation Only
Membership is attained only by official invitation from the Presiding Apostle. Invitation to ICA requires nomination made and seconded by any two current, active ICA members. Nominations are then processed through the Colorado Springs ICA office, and decisions are made on a case-by-case basis as to whether official invitations will be extended. Under extenuating circumstances where two nominators are not available, an explanation as to why there is no second is weighed in the decision-making process.

An application process is required if the invitation is accepted by the individual nominee. This involves submitting a written application form as well as the payment of membership dues. The applicant is required to provide contact information for a person who knows the ministry of, and to whom the applicant is accountable. We will secure that person’s consent during the application approval process. Additionally, US members are expected to contribute US$500 per year for annual dues, and Non-US and Native American members to contribute US$250 per year for membership. If there is any doubt because of the area of ministry, the individual apostle decides whether he or she is US or Non-US/Native American status.

[vespasia]

:sigh: I will give this some thought whilst I am at work. and after I have had a chance to speed read that site link then get back to you Menno.

[brother daniel]

So who are they?
Where are they?

I'd always understood that an apostle was one that has physically seen Jesus but maybe I'm not correct.

Wed night bible study is on spiritual gifts and this one is coming up shortly.

We're going to be taking a "test" for spiritual gifts, a test created by C Peter Wagner, the presiding Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles (http://www.apostlesnet.net/index.asp?action=introduction)


This is the latest version of "the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate."

It was the top down structure of the Talmudic Pharisees and politicaly correct Roman Christianity.

Deception, deceit, apostasy are all words that describe what an “end times” Christian can expect from his church and government. Don’t look for something, obvious, bad or sinful, but appealing, good and couched in Biblical terms. It will be introduced by trusted experts, even the chief apostles! If the clergy, our illustrious leaders fall away, where does that leave the rest of us? There is a move in the church today to restore the office of apostle and prophet to today’s church.

The Second Pentecost leads to the World Church?
by Dr. Orrel Steinkamp, D. Min
C. Peter Wagner is attempting to will into existence what he calls a "New Apostolic Reformation."He tells us in a book he has edited called "The New Apostolic Churches" of the struggle he had with naming his new reformation:
"I needed a name. . . For a couple of years I experimented with 'Post-denominationalism.'. The name I have settled on for the movement is the New Apostolic Reformation." [1]
Donald Miller, a colleague of Wagner, calls this movement "The New Paradigm Churches." [2] This is advertised as a reformation greater in scale than the reformation of the 1500's.
It is suggested that this "new reformation" is something entirely new. Wagner outlines his article with sections such as "new name", "new authority structure", "new ministry focus", "new worship style", "new prayer forms" etc. The centerpiece of this New Apostolic Reformation is the launching of new apostles and prophets.
The restoration of modern day apostles and prophets is promoted in the book "The Gift of Apostle" by David Cannistraci. This book was offered to those attending a conference organized by Wagner called "Churches in the New Apostolic Paradigm." Among the list of topics and presenters for the conference was Bill Hamon. (Can we really refer to the Bill Hamon's teaching as new?) Bishop Hamon has been promoting restoration and Manifest Sons of God teaching for decades.
Can it be argued that this "New Reformation" is something that God has just recently dropped new from heaven like the baby Superman from Krypton? I suggest that there is nothing new here at all and for anyone willing to do the study they will find it a mere cutting edge version of something at least 100 years old. G. Raymond Carlson, former General Superintendent of the AOG, had this to say regarding the new apostles and prophets:
"I saw it in the New Order of the Latter Rain in the late 40's and early 50's. Before that, it made its presence felt in the early days of the century among early Pentecostals." [3]
The only thing new about this movement seems to be the new personalities who are promoting it and their creative marketing techniques.

G. Raymond Carlson was right. This much publicized new paradigm can be traced to the Latter Rain movement of 40's and early 50"s.
Even though the Latter Rain of the 50's faltered and fell into disrepute with the tragic death of William Branham and the repudiation by the Assemblies of God it was kept alive by certain survivors and reintroduced in a veiled manner into the Charismatic Renewal of the 60's and 70's.
Few people have realized just how influential the Latter Rain movement was and how effectively Latter Rain concepts were introduced into the Charismatic Renewal. Ern Baxter who was instrumental in the Shepherding Movement, worked with William Branham during the 50's Latter Rain. George Warnock, who wrote the only systematic teaching from the Latter Rain (The Feast of Tabernacles), was Ern Baxter's personal secretary.
In the midst of the Charismatic Renewal I remember well the teaching of the fivefold ministry and at that time assumed it was a new revelation to the church not knowing it had been imported directly from the Latter Rain. But is the mid-century Latter-Rain the headwaters of the current River of revival? Not really. Rather than the headwaters it is a major tributary. We must travel further upstream to find the actual source. Dr. Raymond Carlson again is correct in asserting that some of the early Pentecostal pioneers of the turn of the century also were involved. Before we stop with the early Pentecostals, we must go just a little further and find the headwaters in the Holiness movement of the late 1800s.
http://www.intotruth.org/res/NewChurch.html

With love in Christ
brother daniel

[MrJim]

Thanks Brother Daniel

And I look forward to your response Vespasia...

[Tenebrae]

hope you dont mind me poking my nose in here

if you do let me know and I wont post again

I left a church that was hevily influenced by the new apostolic reformation movement, and it wasnt a positive experience. Actually it was down right hideous, there were elements of mind control, relationship control, spiritual elitism (that church was doing it right no others were)

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation
http://www.cults.co.nz/n.php under new apostolic reformation movement
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwaveteachings.html


I think initially it wasnt designed that way, ya know though the old addage power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly


........ok going to lurk back in the shadows now..........

[vespasia]

I am concerned that the ICA does not refer to any gospel verses in regards to the call of Christ

The bible also tells us that no office within the church is more important than any other and yet this does read as if they are 'set apart' but not in a set apart from the world kind of way rather it reads as if they are 'set above'.
In my honest opinion a good pastor leads from behind those sheep he is entrusted with to ensure none are struggling lamed or plain wondering.
A decent intercessor is the one sat quietly praying in humility for others at the back of the church instead of spouting from the front to hear their own voice and a decent apostle is one who longs to witness the reality and implications of Christ's resurrection to those who have not heard. It is primarily about witnessing Christ!

Apostle is as far as my reading and understanding goes an OFFICE of the church. If Christ calls an individual to serve in this way to witness for Him then he will equip them with the gifts they need. This site claims that
Membership in ICA is restricted to individuals who have been recognized by a significant segment of the church, including peer-level apostles, as having the gift and office of apostle and who have been ministering through this gift for a period of time.

There is also the exclusion of those who are classed as 'emerging' thereby denying them the mentoring that those young in Christ need. This is concerning to me.


There is a lack of detail and scriptural reference to the office of apostle and the CALL of God. Peers are mentioned but not testing the call to see if this call is from God.
Given that the enemy likes to target 'offices' you can bet this bothers the heck out of me!

I dislike church groups that demand extortionate membership fees without a full explanation of what the fees do and provide. If for example a group asks for say £350 but offers a range of books in the cost or can demonstrate this money is used to support a church in country in greater need. Fine but if such a group is merely building for itself wealth on earth the snazzy corporate office complete with the trappings of corporate business I want to cry. They have forgotten Christ simply came and did not sell out to the Roman way of PR.

As for the effects of this teaching. Ask Wizeone for she has had to live with the consequences and such 'fruits' turned out for her to be very bitter and sour. Not the sort of fruit that gladdens Christ's heart for it weighs down the 'least' of his sheep and over burdens them so they break and starve from lack of good shepherds!

This whole thing makes me want to weep for the mess that is His church.

[MrJim]

hope you dont mind me poking my nose in here

if you do let me know and I wont post again

I left a church that was hevily influenced by the new apostolic reformation movement, and it wasnt a positive experience. Actually it was down right hideous, there were elements of mind control, relationship control, spiritual elitism (that church was doing it right no others were)

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation
http://www.cults.co.nz/n.php under new apostolic reformation movement
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwaveteachings.html


I think initially it wasnt designed that way, ya know though the old addage power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly


........ok going to lurk back in the shadows now..........

You are always welcome and thank you for your input-I'm headed toward those links now:thumbsup:

[MrJim]

I am concerned that the ICA does not refer to any gospel verses in regards to the call of Christ

The bible also tells us that no office within the church is more important than any other and yet this does read as if they are 'set apart' but not in a set apart from the world kind of way rather it reads as if they are 'set above'.
In my honest opinion a good pastor leads from behind those sheep he is entrusted with to ensure none are struggling lamed or plain wondering.
A decent intercessor is the one sat quietly praying in humility for others at the back of the church instead of spouting from the front to hear their own voice and a decent apostle is one who longs to witness the reality and implications of Christ's resurrection to those who have not heard. It is primarily about witnessing Christ!

Apostle is as far as my reading and understanding goes an OFFICE of the church. If Christ calls an individual to serve in this way to witness for Him then he will equip them with the gifts they need. This site claims that
Membership in ICA is restricted to individuals who have been recognized by a significant segment of the church, including peer-level apostles, as having the gift and office of apostle and who have been ministering through this gift for a period of time.

There is also the exclusion of those who are classed as 'emerging' thereby denying them the mentoring that those young in Christ need. This is concerning to me.


There is a lack of detail and scriptural reference to the office of apostle and the CALL of God. Peers are mentioned but not testing the call to see if this call is from God.
Given that the enemy likes to target 'offices' you can bet this bothers the heck out of me!

I dislike church groups that demand extortionate membership fees without a full explanation of what the fees do and provide. If for example a group asks for say £350 but offers a range of books in the cost or can demonstrate this money is used to support a church in country in greater need. Fine but if such a group is merely building for itself wealth on earth the snazzy corporate office complete with the trappings of corporate business I want to cry. They have forgotten Christ simply came and did not sell out to the Roman way of PR.

As for the effects of this teaching. Ask Wizeone for she has had to live with the consequences and such 'fruits' turned out for her to be very bitter and sour. Not the sort of fruit that gladdens Christ's heart for it weighs down the 'least' of his sheep and over burdens them so they break and starve from lack of good shepherds!

This whole thing makes me want to weep for the mess that is His church.

I wish my mind worked like yours-that is an excellent example of discernment and I may just use it all in presenting my questions to the pastor...if you are ok with it. I'll spell your name right too;)

Do you suppose that they are set apart because even though the gifts are to be equal the "original" apostles were such giants that they want to be the "giants" of the church today?

[brother daniel]

You are always welcome and thank you for your input-I'm headed toward those links now:thumbsup:

This is a good study for it gives a glimpse into what is going on to deceive lukewarm Christians.

We have no need for any pastor other than Jesus.
He is our Lord, Apostle and high priest.

Follow this link.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:FD8fZLpo0DoJ:www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/Peter%2520Wagner%2520and%2520his%2520New%2520Apostolic%2520Reformation.pdf+C.+Peter+Wagner+rapture&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

With love in Christ
brother daniel

[MrJim]

This is a good study for it gives a glimpse into what is going on to deceive lukewarm Christians.

We have no need for any pastor other than Jesus.
He is our Lord, Apostle and high priest.

Follow this link.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:FD8fZLpo0DoJ:www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/Peter%2520Wagner%2520and%2520his%2520New%2520Apostolic%2520Reformation.pdf+C.+Peter+Wagner+rapture&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Thanks Brother Daniel, that's quite a site. And this Wagner business goes into directions I wasn't aware of...

[vespasia]

Menno,

There are days I wish my mind worked in vapid bubbles that others seem to inhabit but that is not the brain I was handed.*

If you plan to use this for a constructive dialogue that is fine. My name is Caitlin, I used Vespasia here as Caitlin was in use and as I have a soft spot for the Flavians who managed to halt the narcisstic descent into utter political and social madness created by Nero that led to the 'year of the four emperors.'

Now where the original apostles 'giants' in the way we understand publicity today or were their lives being written and recorded to provide a form of exhortation to encourage and disciple the early church. The way Paul writes he is exhibiting a gift of exhortation and teaching within his calling to witness Christ. He also exhibited the good fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5 especially the humility and patience. I doubt if I would have managed to be as patient with the church in Corinth for example.

I care nothing for denominations that breed intolerance and hatred, I prefer to look at each and consider 'is this person, allowing for human fraility and faliability,exhibiting a changing life that outwardly demonstrates Christ is the treasure of their heart?' It does not matter to me if that person is charismatic AoG, Roman Catholic, quiet brethren, happy clappy baptist or whatever, as long as Christ is the treasure of their heart.

My gut feeling is that those who truly are serving out there in the scriptural form of apostle ship are simply too darn busy to have a 'big corporate publicity machine' and those who truly have an apostolic calling are promoting Christ not themselves.





*And does anyone want to discuss the merits of Plutarch's characterisation and assessment of roman leaders in Fall of the Roman Republic over tea after Church...noooo they all want to talk about Eastenders, Big Brother and if I am really lucky the new SOR (Sexual Orientation Regulations):sigh:

[MrJim]

So what is your opinion about apostles today? You do think there is such a calling?

...and about those Eastenders?

[Brucea]

Hebrews 1:Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

Matthew 17:17:1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves;
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"

Matthew 17:1-5 is not just a cute story. There is absolute truth. There was Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. The one who remained was Jesus! The Father spoke from heaven! This is my beloved Son! HEAR HIM! Don't look to the law(Moses), and don't look for another mouth piece like a prophet(Elijah). It is all found in Jesus!
John 1:17 the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Apostles as church planters I accept! Ephesians 4:11 Many call them missionaries today. Apostle as mediators between God and man is against scriptures!

1 Timothy 5:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Oh that the body of Christ would turn their eyes back to Jesus the author and perfecter of faith.

No man should have dominion over another man's faith!

2 Corithians 1:24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.

Men and pride do not go hand in hand with true church leadership!

Matthew 23:6 "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
7 "greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

I would look for a leader not looking for a title!
God Bless

Bruce A

[oliveplants]

Nice discussion starter, Menno! I haven't read all the posts yet, but will.

Just my off-the-cuff:
Apostle is supposed to mean "sent one" - Paul was the apostle of Jesus Christ because he was sent by Him to preach. I think in the simplest terms an apostle is someone who is sent out by his church, like we usually call missionary.

From the VERY little I know about people who refer to themselves as 'apostles' or 'apostolic', there seems to be an implication of authority (some may say unquestionable authority). Some of these people or groups claim authority has been passed down in an unbroken chain from the original apostles/disciples (but as there are several churches that claim this distinction, I usually pay it little mind).

My family and I visited a church last year that talked a lot about 'moving into the apostolic.' From what we could gather this meant an increase in the gift of prophcey, prosperity, and preoccupation with the physical trappings of the church building (leaders wore matching clothes, chairs had to be arranged right, etc). We didn't have much use for it, and didn't visit again.

Now I'm going to read the more well thought out responses that have already been given. :)

[vespasia]

So what is your opinion about apostles today? You do think there is such a calling?

Hmm...not something I have given thought to. Give me time to consider first and then I shall get back to you.

[brother daniel]

So what is your opinion about apostles today? You do think there is such a calling?

...and about those Eastenders?

I have met a few notable persons that were introduced as Apostle, but none manifested the power of an Apostle. They could not heal or cast out spirits at close range.

Like wise I have seen some prophesy with accuracy at times but I have not seen any that could qualify as prophets.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

[vespasia]

So what is your opinion about apostles today? You do think there is such a calling?

I guess there are two types. There are those who abuse the word 'apostle' as a means to gain power and control over other people. This group has failed to comprehend that Christ was first and foremost a servant leader. He is a king with a servants heart.
Such people are unworthy of being called 'apostle'.


Now the bible does state this;
1 Corinthians 12 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

And Ephesians 4 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

The message does appear to be one of teamwork, of pulling together the differing callings and gifts to fulfil them given by God for the conviction of sinners, for the building up of His church and for HIS glory. To be honest those I know who do have what I consider to be an 'apostolic' call upon their lives do not go around boasting that they are apostles. They call themselves 'disciples', those who follow Christ.
There is such a person in the church attend. They make no great noises they are the one quietly praying at the back of the church for ALL the church. They quietly exhort and teach and yes this person for many years took the gospel of Christ into a dangerous and darkened country even after the main mission groups pulled out. They have healed, in one instance this person even bought back a mother and baby who everyone else had assumed to be dead in childbirth with a mix of heartfelt prayer and medical knowledge. Both mother and baby would have been touch and go with the best of medical care. They have quietly set the spiritual captives free they have taken the gospel of peace and the witness of their life has been reflected in the lives changed for the better. This person was sent out as a missionary in Christ's name and even now this person still longs to let the gospel be known.

How many of today's self proclaimed apostles show such a compassionate loving humble servants heart focussed totally on Christ rather than themselves?
Those who do are truly HIS apostles.

[brother daniel]

So does anyone here know any apostles?
with love in Christ
brother daniel

[Athanasian Creed]

So what is your opinion about apostles today? You do think there is such a calling?....

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Having seen Jesus Christ was indeed a qualification for the office of an Apostle.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

"Signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" done by the Apostle's were evidence that they were Divinely commissioned. They were the ones entrusted to write the majority of the NT. They were the ones who laid the foundation of the Christian Church. IOW, they were unique individuals with a unique office for a unique period in the history of Christianity. The end of the Apostolic age came when the Apostle John died.

1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? ... (or can all be?) NO - only a few had this office bestowed upon them, and that directly by Christ personally! :D



Ray :)


P.S. I once attended a church where the pastor claimed he was an apostle...empty words. Needless to say, i didn't stay long! :eek:

[Jesusmyfriend]

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[Jesusmyfriend]

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