Our Torah is in full force!!

[Shimshon]

This is my testemony and witness. I've seen others present theirs without interuption so I pray I am allowed to speak my heart here as well. And receive the same freedoms you all have to post your hearts and minds. If you don't agree it's o.k. I'm not posting this to start a fire. Only to give more of an understanding of my walk with God. As you all do. (did I clarify this enough?) ;)

We know that the Torah binds us to all of it's commands. If you break one, you break the Law/Torah. And are guilty of judgment. Sin runs rampant in this system, as it was meant to. The Law of sin and death. The Torah of Moshe was added to multiply transgressions. So that the covenant of grace may even more abound.

The Torah observant sect teaches that we can only observed Torah in partiality, even though we have been given the Spirit to lead us into Torah observance, we can only observe it in partiality. We here phrases like 'to the best of our ability', or 'only what applies to us here in the wilderness'. Torah observant Messianics seem to know they can not observe all of the Torah and make excuses why this is so. Exile, intermediate covenantial period, ....and the list grows daily.

We who have preached the Kingdom that Avraham, Yitzak, and Ya'akov saw, that David saw, that Yeshua preached to the Yehudim and was murdered for, we have always spoken of the promise of Avraham as the root of Messiah. Not Ya'akov, least Yishmael and a host of nations be cut off for not being 'Jewish'.

The message is that Torah is complete. Not laid in limbo to be partially observed here in exile among the nations. Kingdom Torah proclaims an observance of every jot and title. It lays nothing aside for a while, nor does it renew anything old dusting it off and making it operate per antiquity. He fills the cup to overflowing. He works for centuries filling the cup then, he drinks. No work left to do but watch him be filled with the blood from the vines. Our Jewish brothers labored all day and earned their pay, and place. The cup (Yisrael) was formed and filled. Yeshua came and filled it to overflowing, even with his own blood.

Now he takes it and pours it out upon mankind. We are ministers of this work. This is the work he is doing and the work he has prepared for us from the foundations of the earth.

Our Torah is in full force. It is fully observed, the spirit is poured out upon his children. And all walk according to his ways because all are born from above by his Spirit. Born to witness and bring this message of salvation through out the world.

Torah observant Messianic teaching says we are only operating the Torah partially. This is because they can not possibly observe it the way it was given. Because it's not possible to fill the cup any longer when it's now being poured out.

I have been constantly told by Torah observant Messianics that I am anti-semitic, told I teach the law is void, abolished, dead, .....called Christian. It is amazing how this is again being used as a derogatory term against others.

Yet, who is really acting anti-semitic? Who really is teaching that Torah is made void, or abolished. Is it not those who teach that you can now only follow part of it and be justified? To say you can not follow all of Torah but are still found righteous in God's eyes...? I do believe there is a scripture about that.

Our message is one of complete Torah observance to the covenant established by Yeshua, promised through Avraham.

Torah observant theology is one of partial observance to Torah. You can only observe parts of it as made accessible through the Spirit. It's own adherents state this. So in essence the Spirit leads you into partial observance of Torah commands.

The message Yeshua gave of the Kingdom is that it is upon us, it is here. And the instructions (Torah) he spoke regarding the Kingdom were to be followed to every jot and title. Least we call Yeshua a liar. Kingdom Torah is New Covenant Torah. It is what Yeshua revealed to Jew and Gentile alike, through the Law and the Prophets and by every Word he spoke. A way to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon our souls. Made new, from old. Given a new way to worship God, as promised from the beginning. In union with God through the Spirit. Able to walk out his will and love to the glory of only Yeshua who gives us this gift. The ability to walk in the new creation he formed. In one day a nation was born....again. One new man, the Yisrael of God. Both physical Jews of Ya'akov and physical goyim from the nations. Both born by the Spirit given them. A completed cup being poured out for all creation to drink.

[Wags]

Kingdom Torah, New Covenant Torah? All walk in his ways????

[StormSeeker]

:scratch:

[madmango]

All walk in His ways? Now why would we want to do that?
I perfer to keep my old wineskin.
Thank you.

[Ahavah]

Great Post Shimshon!

[Wags]

Great Post Shimshon!
So nice to see the wife still agrees with what her husband posts.

[Ahavah]

;) How many husbands can say that?;)

[Sephania]

I don't know if one wife disagrees and the other agrees, don't they cancel each other out? :scratch:

[Shimshon]

Kingdom Torah, New Covenant Torah? All walk in his ways????
Glad you asked....

'Messiah in you....... Find that in the 'old' testament. Our hope of glory. The fulfillment of the Torah. Yeshua came testifying the message that was given him from God. It testified about himself. Two witnesses as one. It was the message of unity with God. Union with Yeshua who is in union with the Father. He said we would keep his words, which were his Fathers words. Words given to Yeshua to speak, actions given to Yeshua to walk. Yeshua was commanded to make known the Father to those who the Father was revealing himself to. By the 'Word' given to Yeshua to speak. (by the words I 'have' spoken to you, you are pruned) The words Yeshua spoke were from the Father. They were the Word of God. He did not reiteriate the Torah of the covenant made through Moshe. He spoke only what was given to him by the Father to speak. Namely that those who believe in Him and who he is and what he has done are his sheep and hear his voice. They have believed in Yeshua and the One who sent Him. This was his purpose. To call, speak to those who the Father has given him so that He can raise them up in the Last Day. Not so they could worship in a covenant made through Moshe. But to be in union with Messiah, Christ in you, our hope of glory. He is glorified by us bearing much fruit. We can only bear fruit in union with Messiah. By the Spirit given us we are in him and he in us, and we are in God. All one. 'God gave the 'message' (new covenant Torah) to Yeshua to give to his talmidim to give to the world. It's the message of union with Messiah. He gives us eternal life by the power of the Word given him by the One who sent him into this world to give it. The Torah of Moshe patterned and told of this, it fortold of the Day when this covenant would be made with His children. Yeshua brought this Day into existance. He radified it by the blood of his body and we all eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. We become one with God through Yeshua HaMoshiach. He lives and dwells within us. And we, though we will die, as Yeshua died, we will live again and be with God. Because this is the purpose of Yeshua, to bring eternal life to all who will come. Through the indwelling of the Ruach. To drink of the Living Water that pours from his being into our hearts for the world to drink.

[Sephania]

I thought only mormons believed in two wives? :confused:

[Shimshon]

Actually I knew a member here who was also a member of my own forums. He was a poligamist. He claimed to be Torah observant too. :confused:

[Wags]

All walk in his ways???? :scratch:

ALL are certainly not walking in His ways.

[Athaliamum]

I think you missed the implication of AniMaamin post Shimshon. It was refering to there being only one bride of the Messiah - the one betrothed through the Torah. The idea that God changed convenants is akin to him switching who he is engaged to.

This is my testemony and witness. I've seen others present theirs without interuption so I pray I am allowed to speak my heart here as well. And receive the same freedoms you all have to post your hearts and minds. If you don't agree it's o.k. I'm not posting this to start a fire. Only to give more of an understanding of my walk with God. As you all do. (did I clarify this enough?)

I understand your need to make this clarification. What I don't understand is the post thereafter in relation to this. The rest of the post isn't personal which you would expect when reading someones testimony and witness, it's preaching in a "this is how it is" manner. This will most certainly is going to get people's backs up, especially as you already conceded that many people would be unlikely to agree with you. You use words such as "we", "you", "our" rather then words that would personalise it as your particular opinion such as "I", "my" or "mine".

When your not using blanket "we's" etc your are writing in a this is how it is manner, as in it is a undeniable, proven fact, when it's not - it's your opinion. This approach will result in one of three outcomes.

1. People will read you message and go "yep, that's right". They are people that already agree with you and believe exactly as you do. Preaching to the choir, so to speak.

2. People will argue with you to defend themselves from language that denotes attack because it implys that if you don't agree your wrong. The use of language belittles those who don't agree's own personal journey, their study, their prayer, their own convictions of spirit. People's spirtual journey's can be hard. No one is going to look kindly on you saying as fact that the lesson they may have learned after being battered and bruised by life is wrong by implication - they will defend it.

3. They'll ignore you. They'll read it, get their back up and walk away. Any posts you make in furture won't even be looked at.

So basically the only people that will listen to you are people that already agree. That makes the positive effectiveness of the message you are trying to convey zero. It may not neccessarily be the message itself but the delivery but people may not be able to see that because of the jungle of offence the delivery creates. You may need to work on your diplomacy if you want any of your posts to be effective positively.

In reference to this thread and others where I have seen you lament that people seem to not let you have your opinion, I would say that most people here have no problem with you having an opinion - as long as it is written as your opinion, rather then as it where a fact. Just a thought.

[Wags]

:thumbsup: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Athaliamum again.

[visionary]

If in the story of the good samaritan it was the sabbath day and the scribes and pharasees were doing their 'sabbath walk" when they came across the wounded man, the burden of loving the "neighbor" would have been to difficulty to bear while carrying the "sabbath law" on their shoulders. The good samaritan on the other hand laid down the burden of legalism to "love" his neighbor, to purchase the needs and care for the wounded man. This did not mean the good samaritan threw out the law for his own way but saw the need to live the law of love.

There is a perfect balance in love and truth and Yeshua was able to do that, and we need to learn how. Only by the Spirit and truth are we able to find the balance. IT is not old by legalism but new by spirit and truth.

[christinepro]

I believe that people are seeking the Torah because G-d put it in peoples hearts. We do not need to recruit peopel to the Torah. We just need to kindle the flame in peoples hearts!!

[Shimshon]

All walk in his ways???? :scratch:

ALL are certainly not walking in His ways.

All 'his' people are walking in his ways. If they were not, they would not be his people. It does not imply ALL people living and breathing will be walking in his ways. Only that those who hear his voice listen to it and follow him where ever it leads. We love him so much we lay down our lives as a living sacrifice to his glory. We know our Torah. IT is written on our hearts. Full and completely where it was ment to be. The Spirit living inside of man. A mystery to some, but beauty beyond imagination to others.

[AbiYah]

All 'his' people are walking in his ways. If they were not, they would not be his people. It does not imply ALL people living and breathing will be walking in his ways. Only that those who hear his voice listen to it and follow him where ever it leads. We love him so much we lay down our lives as a living sacrifice to his glory. We know our Torah. IT is written on our hearts. Full and completely where it was ment to be. The Spirit living inside of man. A mystery to some, but beauty beyond imagination to others.
OK I am maybe, a little confused.

Please humour me.

Are you saying people not obeying what you have presented as Torah; are not "His" (G-d's/Y'shua's)?

[visionary]

Coming down on the side of legalism instead for the spirit of love and truth is truly difficult. I do not believe that living in the spirit of truth and love can not be done without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is why people have such a hard time reconciling with the law.. they see it as restricting rather than a principle upon which truth and love can be shown to our fellow man. The complete shunning anything using the term "law" is just a reflection of this difficulty with reconciliation. Some of these restrictions they see are restrictions from sin which they wish to continue to indulge in. Other restrictions are "fences" which Paul worked hard to tear down in order to follow the spirit in truth and in action.

We need to all admit that we are all in Jacob's place struggling in the night wrestling with God. Until we receive the blessings, we will not realize the harmony of living in the spirit and truth. Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. We need to hear His Voice and Obey more often. Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Cuts down on the wrestling.

[Sephania]

OK I am maybe, a little confused.

Please humour me.

Are you saying people not obeying what you have presented as Torah; are not "His" (G-d's/Y'shua's)?
I'm sad to say this, but it sounds like something I heard as a kid from taunting other children

'I got something you ain't got'

:( Made me cry then, makes me cry now:cry:

[Ahavah]

I think you misunderstood what Shimshon was saying.
Please Read:

John 10:1-18 1 "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3 The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them. 7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

[Torah]

I think you missed the implication of AniMaamin post Shimshon. It was refering to there being only one bride of the Messiah - the one betrothed through the Torah. The idea that God changed convenants is akin to him switching who he is engaged to.



I understand your need to make this clarification. What I don't understand is the post thereafter in relation to this. The rest of the post isn't personal which you would expect when reading someones testimony and witness, it's preaching in a "this is how it is" manner. This will most certainly is going to get people's backs up, especially as you already conceded that many people would be unlikely to agree with you. You use words such as "we", "you", "our" rather then words that would personalise it as your particular opinion such as "I", "my" or "mine".

When your not using blanket "we's" etc your are writing in a this is how it is manner, as in it is a undeniable, proven fact, when it's not - it's your opinion. This approach will result in one of three outcomes.

1. People will read you message and go "yep, that's right". They are people that already agree with you and believe exactly as you do. Preaching to the choir, so to speak.

2. People will argue with you to defend themselves from language that denotes attack because it implys that if you don't agree your wrong. The use of language belittles those who don't agree's own personal journey, their study, their prayer, their own convictions of spirit. People's spirtual journey's can be hard. No one is going to look kindly on you saying as fact that the lesson they may have learned after being battered and bruised by life is wrong by implication - they will defend it.

3. They'll ignore you. They'll read it, get their back up and walk away. Any posts you make in furture won't even be looked at.

So basically the only people that will listen to you are people that already agree. That makes the positive effectiveness of the message you are trying to convey zero. It may not neccessarily be the message itself but the delivery but people may not be able to see that because of the jungle of offence the delivery creates. You may need to work on your diplomacy if you want any of your posts to be effective positively.

In reference to this thread and others where I have seen you lament that people seem to not let you have your opinion, I would say that most people here have no problem with you having an opinion - as long as it is written as your opinion, rather then as it where a fact. Just a thought.
I choose #3. They'll ignore you. They'll read it, get their back up and walk away. Any posts you make in furture won't even be looked at.

Good post sis.

[talmidim]

Shalom,

Here is what I see and hear. A brother in Messiah pours out his heart and explains his beliefs as best he can. The response that he has been offered has nothing to do with a scriptural rebuttal or agreement, has it? It has been personally confrontational, harshly judgemental and shameful. Is this the best you can do? To criticize the way he organized his thoughts?

You call yourselves brothers and sisters? How do you think the Master would have responded to him? I'll tell you. He would have shown a lot more love and understanding. He would have not only quoted scripture - He would have offered encouragement. Where are the fruits of the Spirit? Where?

The hardness of the responses I have read here remind me of every, "we are better than you" denomination I have ever walked away from. Where is the love Yeshua showed us? Number three indeed! Aren't you glad that He didn't turn His back and walk away?

I am going to shut off my computer now and pray for you all.

[Wags]

Thanks Tal - can always use prayer.

But honestly, many of us have tried replying to Shimshon with scripture (this isn't the first time he has posted his beliefs) - only to be told rather bluntly we are absolutely wrong.

[Athaliamum]

Shalom,

Here is what I see and hear. A brother in Messiah pours out his heart and explains his beliefs as best he can. The response that he has been offered has nothing to do with a scriptural rebuttal or agreement, has it? It has been personally confrontational, harshly judgemental and shameful. Is this the best you can do? To criticize the way he organized his thoughts?


Are you talking about what I posted talmidim? I don't believe what I posted in particular was harshly judgemental and confrontational, it certainly wasn't intended that way but as a loving piece of advice. I'm sure that those who responded directly to my post are not trying to be mean or judgemental either (I hope).

I actually thought I did a pretty good job of saying something that might bring attention to his how shimshon creates (unintended) offense, in the most loving manner possible. I'm sure shimshon wants his posts to create disscussion not debate. I'm sure He wants people to read them and think about them, not dismiss them within the first two sentences. I'm sure he wants people to read them with an open mind and not loaded with bias because they have been offended.

The way to achieve this is to write his posts as personal opinion and not as if he has the facts and all others are in error. The way they are written is as he is the preacher and we are the congregation and we are to submit to his teaching.:preach: This is not the way to win friends and influence people because it approaches the situation as non-equals - that is going to cause offense it doesn't matter what the message is!

It's not about having a different opinion. Wags and I have in some areas polar opposite ideas on what is allowed on a shabbat, we have been able to discuss this and disagree without causing offense because we talk about it in personal terms not is a "this is how it is, if you don't agree, you're wrong" manner.

I want to be able to read shimshon's posts and discuss them with him without getting :mad: and without getting :preach: to.
I understand Shimshon to be zealot with a heart for God, I also can see in his posts his frustration. Saying something as a personal opinion does not diminish the truth of the subject, but it does allow doors to open, or remain opened that if the other approach was taken would be slammed in your face.

Words have the power of life and death, they also have the power to cause offense or to bring unity. Discernment is needed by each individual on how their words effect others. We want unity and I don't want to see any spirit of offense between the Messianic members of CF.

[Ahavah]

Shalom,

Here is what I see and hear. A brother in Messiah pours out his heart and explains his beliefs as best he can. The response that he has been offered has nothing to do with a scriptural rebuttal or agreement, has it? It has been personally confrontational, harshly judgemental and shameful. Is this the best you can do? To criticize the way he organized his thoughts?

You call yourselves brothers and sisters? How do you think the Master would have responded to him? I'll tell you. He would have shown a lot more love and understanding. He would have not only quoted scripture - He would have offered encouragement. Where are the fruits of the Spirit? Where?

The hardness of the responses I have read here remind me of every, "we are better than you" denomination I have ever walked away from. Where is the love Yeshua showed us? Number three indeed! Aren't you glad that He didn't turn His back and walk away?

I am going to shut off my computer now and pray for you all.

Great Post Gramps!!! Thanks! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Victrixa]

Thank you Talmidim. Such wise words...

The harshness on this forum can be so depressive... :( I'm about to leave...

[insaneinthebrain]

Shalom,

Here is what I see and hear. A brother in Messiah pours out his heart and explains his beliefs as best he can. The response that he has been offered has nothing to do with a scriptural rebuttal or agreement, has it? It has been personally confrontational, harshly judgemental and shameful. Is this the best you can do? To criticize the way he organized his thoughts?

You call yourselves brothers and sisters? How do you think the Master would have responded to him? I'll tell you. He would have shown a lot more love and understanding. He would have not only quoted scripture - He would have offered encouragement. Where are the fruits of the Spirit? Where?

The hardness of the responses I have read here remind me of every, "we are better than you" denomination I have ever walked away from. Where is the love Yeshua showed us? Number three indeed! Aren't you glad that He didn't turn His back and walk away?

I am going to shut off my computer now and pray for you all.
Can I ask how this is any better than the posts you're condemning?

[Sephania]

This seems to be a touchy subject and has been discussed on many, many threads and I realize some are getting weary of it, but let's please all be respectful, not quick to judge one another, and discuss this in the fashion of Psalms 133:1 shall we Mishpocha? Please? after all it is Shabbat :pray:
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/items/shabbat2.gif Shabbat Shalom Alecheim