Orthodox Judiac beliefs... [Archive]

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EmbracingHim

11th January 2007, 11:51 AM

stone

11th January 2007, 12:11 PM

I think the commandment to not boil a kid in its mothers milk is a good example that some of the commandments were for that time.

How to deal with slaves, and pillageing and such are more examples of how some of it is for that time period.

They may have been written down by a man, but that man was writeing down what was being spoken to him by g-d.

HadassahSukkot

11th January 2007, 12:12 PM

Everyone I have known that are Haredi/Hassidic/Orthodox are very "into" The Tanakh - especially the Torah.

We see eye to eye on many more things than people think actually (I listen to quite a lot of teachings here and there; many being Orthodox incidentally)...

But generally taught on equal footing is the Talmud, and I have a little issue with that... ( I think it should be taught, but not on the same level as the Tanakh - it is commentary)

I have found the Reform to not have much faith at all in the Tanakh, let alone the Torah... and they almost completely dismiss the Talmud.

I find the Conservative to be somewhere between the two. . . sometimes more orthodox than not (but driving cars on shabbat); and some leaning more reform than anything.

There are several websites that can help you out (this wiki page is a simplistic approach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism ) as well as several members here on CF that are Orthodox that might be better suited to answering your question..

From the Wikipage:

Orthodox Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism) holds that both the Written and Oral Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah) were divinely revealed to Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses), and that the laws within it are binding and unchanging. Orthodox Jews generally consider the Shulkhan Arukh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulkhan_Arukh), to be the definitive codification of Jewish law, and assert a continuity between the Judaism of the Temple in Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem), pre-Enlightenment Rabbinic Judaism. and modern-day Orthodox Judaism. Most of Orthodox Judaism holds to one particular form of Jewish theology, based on Maimonides' 13 principles of Jewish faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides#The_13_principles_of_faith). Orthodox Judaism broadly (and informally) shades into two main styles, Modern Orthodox Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Orthodox_Judaism) and Haredi Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism). The philosophical distinction is generally around accommodation to modernity and weight placed on non-Jewish disciplines, though in practical terms the differences are often reflected in styles of dress and rigor in practice. According to most Orthodox Jews, Jewish people who do not keep the laws of Shabbat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat) and Yom Tov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Tov) (the holidays), Kashrut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut), and family purity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_purity) are considered non-religious. Any Jew who keeps at least those laws would be considered observant and religious.
Modern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Orthodox_Judaism) is a common traditional form of Judaism, which has a broad adherence to historic traditions, and practices, and worship and belief in traditional form.
Traditional Orthodox or Haredi Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism) is a very conservative form of Judaism. It is sometimes called Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, but this term is widely considered to be offensive. Though there are a number of Haredi Jewish groups who, like Modern Orthodoxy, accept modernization (including followers of Torah im Derech Eretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_im_Derech_Eretz) and perhaps most notably Lubavitch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubavitch) Hassidism), the modern culture is seen as a means to worship God instead of an end unto itself. Many Orthodox Jews do not look at one's professed denomination alone as the principal way of evaluating religious level; instead they view Jews by how closely their beliefs and practices accord with Orthodox ones.
Hasidic Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism) is a form of Orthodox Judaism based on the teachings of Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_ben_Eliezer) (the 'Baal Shem Tov'). Hassidic philosophy is rooted in the Kabbalah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah), and Hassidic Jews accept the Kabbalah as sacred scripture. They are distinguished both by a variety of special customs and practices including reliance on a Rebbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebbe) or supreme religious leader, and for a special dress code particular to each Hassidic group.

Conservative Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Judaism), known as Masorti Judaism outside of the United States and Canada, developed in Europe and the United States in the 1800s, as Jews reacted to the changes brought about by the Enlightenment and Jewish emancipation. It is characterized by a commitment to following traditional Jewish laws and customs, including observance of Shabbat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat) and Kashrut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut); a deliberately non-fundamentalist teaching of Jewish principles of faith; a positive attitude toward modern culture; an acceptance of both traditional rabbinic modes of study and modern scholarship and critical text study when considering Jewish religious texts.
It teaches that Jewish law was not static, but rather has always developed in response to changing conditions.
It holds that the Torah is a divine document written by prophets inspired by God, but rejects the Orthodox position that it was dictated by God to Moses. Similarly, Conservative Judaism holds that Judaism's oral law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_law) is divine and normative, but rejects some Orthodox interpretations of the oral law.
Accordingly, Conservative Judaism holds that both the Written and Oral Law may be interpreted by the Rabbinnate to reflect modern sensibilities and suit modern conditions, although great caution should be exercised in doing so.
Progressive Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Judaism) is composed of multiple movements in several countries.

Reform Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism), called Liberal or Progressive in many countries, originally formed in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) in response to the Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Enlightenment). (Note that in the United Kingdom, there are two distinct congregational unions, Reform and Liberal. The former is significantly more traditional than the latter, but both hold to essentially the same theoretical position.) Its defining characteristic with respect to the other movements is its rejection of the binding nature of Jewish ceremonial law as such and instead believing that individual Jews should exercise an informed autonomy about what to observe. Reform Judaism initially defined Judaism as a religion, rather than as a race or culture; rejected most of the ritual ceremonial laws of the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah) while observing moral laws; and emphasized the ethical call of the Prophets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neviim). Reform Judaism developed a prayer service in the vernacular (along with Hebrew in most cases) and emphasized personal connection to Jewish tradition over specific forms of observance. Today, many Reform congregations encourage the study of Hebrew and traditional observances.
Reconstructionist Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism) started as a stream of philosophy by Mordechai Kaplan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Kaplan), a Conservative rabbi, and later became an independent movement emphasizing reinterpreting Judaism for modern times. Like Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism does hold not that Jewish law, as such, requires observance, but unlike Reform, Reconstructionist thought emphasizes the role of the community in deciding what observances to follow.Jewish Renewal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Renewal), a recent North American movement, was begun by Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalman_Schachter-Shalomi), a Hassidic rabbi, in the 1960's. Jewish Renewal focuses on spirtuality and social justice, but does not address issues of Jewish law. Men and women participate equally in prayer.

Humanistic Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_Judaism). A small nontheistic movement that emphasizes Jewish culture and history as the sources of Jewish identity. Founded by Rabbi Sherwin Wine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwin_Wine), it is centered in North America and Israel but also has affiliated groups in Europe and Latin America.

and:

Even though all of these denominations exist in Israel, Israelis tend to classify Jewish identity in ways that are different than diaspora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora) Jewry. Most Jewish Israelis classify themselves as "secular" (hiloni), "traditional" (masorti), "religious" (dati) or Haredi. The term "secular" is more popular as a self-description among Israeli families of western (European) origin, whose Jewish identity may be a very powerful force in their lives, but who see it as largely independent of traditional religious belief and practice. This portion of the population largely ignores organized religious life, be it of the official Israeli rabbinate (Orthodox) or of the liberal movements common to diaspora Judaism (Reform, Conservative).
The term "traditional" (masorti) is most common as a self-description among Israeli families of "eastern" origin (i.e., the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa). This term, as commonly used, has nothing to do with the official Masorti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masorti) (Conservative) movement.
There is a great deal of ambiguity in the ways "secular" and "traditional" are used in Israel. They often overlap, and they cover an extremely wide range in terms of ideology and religious observance.
The term "Orthodox" (Ortodoxi) is unpopular in Israeli discourse (among both "secular" and "religious" alike). Nevertheless, the spectrum covered by "Orthodox" in the diaspora exists in Israel, again with some important variations. The "Orthodox" spectrum in Israel is a far greater percentage of the Jewish population in Israel than in the diaspora, though how much greater is hotly debated. Various ways of measuring this percentage, each with its pros and cons, include the proportion of religiously observant Knesset (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset) members, the proportion of Jewish children enrolled in religious schools, and statistical studies on "identity".
What would be called "Orthodox" in the diaspora includes what is commonly called dati (religious) or haredi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi) (ultra-Orthodox) in Israel. The former term includes what is called "Religious Zionism" or the "National Religious" community, as well as what has become known over the past decade or so as haredi-leumi (nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalist) haredi), or "Hardal," which combines a largely haredi lifestyle with nationalist ideology.
Haredi applies to a populace that can be roughly divided into three separate groups along both ethnic and ideological lines: (1) "Lithuanian" (non-hasidic) haredim of Ashkenazic origin; (2) Hasidic haredim of Ashkenazic origin; and (3) Sephardic haredim. The third group is the largest, and has been the most politically active since the early 1990s.

So do the orthodox Judiac faith believe that the Mosaic laws are directly from God or inspired in such a way that they are from God?

Am I wrong to indicate that they were created by men who desired to serve God, but outside of the 10 commandments...and some various others...most laws were man created? (The Mosaic law being man created has always just been my understanding, since I was young although I've never explored beyond my teachings of this by elders....

I would say it is incorrect, because G-d told EVERYTHING to Moshe and told him to write it down exactly as He said.
Everything has been transmitted exactly as said; and copied down very faithfully in each generation on every scroll.. there have been very minimal changes to the text when it is masoretic in nature; but I have found that many of the texts that are not do not have many variants (the masoretic is usually pronunciation)...

The Scriptures are G-d breathed and inspired. It matters not that a scribe wrote it down.

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti003.html#16) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

Wags

11th January 2007, 01:49 PM

It is time you expanded your horizions and do some studying for yourself because you are most assuredly wrong in your assumptions about the "old testament" laws.

The Torah was given to Moshe by the Most High. These were NOT the commands of a man but the commands of Adoani. Moshe was simply the scribe that wrote them down.

HadassahSukkot

11th January 2007, 02:06 PM

Exd 33:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd033.html#11)a) And YHVH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend...

Exodus 19 and several other passages are awesome in explaining how G-d called Moses to mediate because the Children of Israel were afraid of the voice of G-d; and how Moses wrote down everything G-d said.

Deu 4:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu004.html#2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you.

AbiYah

11th January 2007, 07:35 PM

I was talking with my Jewish doctor and it hit me that it would appear that Orthodox Jews might not believe the Mosaic law or laws of the OT were man created?

Is this correct?

He (my doctor) told me that he had trouble with all the various laws and when I told him that they were Mosaic and although allowed -- written by man. He seemed troubled by this (I also fear I insulted him without the intent to do so).

I used the scripture where the Isrealites desired a human king...but God told them that they already had a King, but allowed the Isrealites to elect a human king, since it was their desire (yet not that of God's).

So do the orthodox Judiac faith believe that the Mosaic laws are directly from God or inspired in such a way that they are from God?

Am I wrong to indicate that they were created by men who desired to serve God, but outside of the 10 commandments...and some various others...most laws were man created? (The Mosaic law being man created has always just been my understanding, since I was young although I've never explored beyond my teachings of this by elders. I was also told this by Messianic Jews that I have studied with recently too, but this orthodox Jewish doctor as stated seemed to look at me as if I had troubled his soul)...

So am I wrong?
Wow. If someone told me this, I would be offended too. :(

It is troubling. Man was entrusted to write it down faithfully and copy faithfully. . . but G-d gave the word.

Romans 3
1 Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision? 2 Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God.[a (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Romans+3&book_id=52&version1=51&tp=16&c=3#fen-NLT-27954a)]

3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful? 4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him, “You will be proved right in what you say,
and you will win your case in court.”[b (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Romans+3&book_id=52&version1=51&tp=16&c=3#fen-NLT-27956b)]

John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,[a (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=John+1&book_id=50&version1=51&tp=21&c=1#fen-NLT-26014a)]
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.[b (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=John+1&book_id=50&version1=51&tp=21&c=1#fen-NLT-26015b)]

Nessuno

12th January 2007, 08:03 AM

Man was entrusted to write it down faithfully and copy faithfully. . . but G-d gave the word.
Two thoughts about this, though i'm not going to actaully copy and paste quotes because i'm going to be a little lazy and I don't know them off the top of my head.
In Numbers or Dueteronomy, Moses was told by someone about these guys that were saying something bad. (sheesh, pls bare with me on this). He then entered into a literal conversation with G-d, telling him to seperate those from these guys tents. I can't see "conversation" and inspired by, being the same thing. I'm not even sure how "inpired by" could happen without the H-ly Sp-r-t being present yet. Well, Moses did what G-d said, then the ground swallowed them up.

My second thought is more a question regarding the Mitzvot. There is a rule about writing a Torah for himself (Duet. 31:19), and in the next chapter it says the song to be written. Duet.32:1-33 Hopefully, I only have to write 1-33 because I write very slowly, typing not so bad, but it doesn't say Type. Since everyone here is probably J or MJ, you most likely did this as a child. What did you have to write ?
BTW: laziness would not be an issue for me regarding this (though it really does seem to be regarding to just 1-33 of Duet 32, which is most likely where I would start because it's definately a strong piece that would definately be worth having fresh in the mind.

AbiYah

12th January 2007, 10:27 AM

Deuteronomy 31:19 says Now therefore write ye [Moses is instructed to write it] this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

This is an end times prophesy. But not everyone is to write it. Just Moses and the scribes copying.

As for the Ruach not being there; He was. He ever is. It isn't always evident in the language we are reading a translation in, but the Ruach Was and Is there.

Also remember that Joshua was there, and Joshua was a scribe (and warrior). Joshua wrote down what Moses didn't. So if Moses is busy talking with G-d and Joshua is "at the door"... Joshua writes it down; unless it is something that G-d instructs Moses to write.

The first tablets of the 10 Words was written with G-d's hand. Moses destroyed them due to his upset at seeing the sin in the Camp whilst he was up at the Mtn of G-d...

The Second tablets were hewn and written by Moses... but does that change the message from the first? No.

The prophets were given dreams, visions and words by G-d and His Ruach; and they went and said them at the tabernacle or the temple (whichever was in place in their time) and it was recorded by the scribes.

Does this make it any less reliable or G-d given? No. :doh:

Desperate4Him2

12th January 2007, 10:04 PM

Sadly, many Christians do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, though written by men. :cry:

Nessuno

13th January 2007, 06:51 AM

Also remember that Joshua was there, and Joshua was a scribe (and warrior). Joshua wrote down what Moses didn't. So if Moses is busy talking with G-d and Joshua is "at the door"... Joshua writes it down; unless it is something that G-d instructs Moses to write.

That's excactly what I was trying to show :) Moses was having a conversation with G-d and it was being recorded. So any question about being "the literal word of G-d" is completely gone.
It's like a stenographer in a courtroom, can't get any better.

The second part ya got me a bit confused on and had really only added it to dialouge due to the topic and I had been studying the Mitvot from an Orthodox Jewish site. www jewfaq org lists the 613 and it was the first place that I found all of em so was working from the list.
Number 16 That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19)
So my question was whether it meant "the whole thing" or just the song? So I'm still confused on this one. I was really beginning to like idea, especially if I could find Hebrew text of it. (if anyone has a link to that, it would GREATLY be appreciate, regardless of whether it's required or not) Could also use it as an extra bonus of learning Hebrew. Providing it was just the song... whole Torah would be a bit much.

Thirdly, and I would like to thank you about this one. The Sp-r-t of G-d, I guess is the H-ly Sp-r-t, when I had always thought of "Sp of G" as the Father part of the Trinity, and "HS" as what Jesus talks about in John 16:7.
John 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Very ironic that a lazy post figuring one would get the understanding of what I was trying to say, would come out wrong and end up costing more time in explanation. Shortcuts are often longer.

Since I was also looking at "Judaism for the beginner" type things, Lashon Ha-Ra was the first lesson. This lesson makes alot of sense now.

Wags

13th January 2007, 12:59 PM

The Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit/God's Spirit) has always been. The difference is that in the former days it rested upon an individual (Usually one in a leadership or prophetic role.)

So what changed after Yeshua? Well on the Shavout (pentacost) after his resurection the spirit indwelt all believers. Because all are tasked with speading the good news.

EmbracingHim

13th January 2007, 11:06 PM

Thank you all for your responses. Reps to all who have responded.

I guess I should have spoken directly about the conversation held...'divorce' and the multiple reasons given to divorce in Mosaic law.

Of course there is direct text that G-d instructed Moses in various ways as well as others (for example the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple). I have no mistake in these areas...

The areas that I was taught otherwise was through Kings and Judges...when man sought his own governance against God's clear words...'you already have a King.'

In this way man introduced laws as they do today for 'governance.'

I apologize for not being clearer about my Jewish doctor's and my discussion.

Thank you all for your input. It is well apprecriated and received. I will offer apology to my doctor as well if I stated anything of a wrong nature, although our discussion was not concentrated on the scriptures where G-d directly spoke and gave specific directions to man.

Allow me also to apologize if my words were not understood. I studied with a Messianic Jewish synagogue when dating a man who was a Messianic Jew. He was a teacher (Hebrew and Greek) at the Synagogue he attended and he had taught me this. His teachings matched that of earlier teachings.

Thank you. :)

Selah,
EH

Desperate4Him2

13th January 2007, 11:44 PM

After re-reading your OP, EH, perhaps you are thinking of the "fence" that the rabbis after the Babylonian captivity put around Torah so that the Hebrews could no longer offend God by sinning against his law. Thing was that the "fence" was more of a burden than any of the actual 613 laws were. Checking the actual law, a man could divorce his wife because of some "uncleanness" on her part - not particularly defined but probably sexual, maybe ritual. The Rabbis undoubtedly added a bunch of layers to what would have been fairly clear to the Hebrews of the Exodus!

This is what many Orthodox Jews refer to when they speak of the law. Torah plus, not Torah alone.

Does this make sense? :wave:

EmbracingHim

14th January 2007, 12:17 AM

Yes this does make sense and is what I have heard. There were many rituals created through cultural means (the cleansing baptism when a woman menstrated, etc.) as well as cultural norms (such as pre-arranged marriages) that were often held as law although not direct commandments from G-d. (Well I am not certain about the cleansing baptism--it might have been a direct commandment...I'd have to re-check on this). But indeed, the scriptures discuss a man and woman leaving thier parents upon marriage and becoming one flesh...the causes for divorce under Mosiac law became 'many' and I have not noted the 'many' being directly from G-d in scripture. This is the 'plus' that I thought even orthodox Jews acknowledged.

A truly beautiful culture in all regards though (minus the too many causes of divorce in the OT, that the NT does away with) (I embrace the ways of previous generations as much was created in love for G-d and their children (pre-arranged marriages is still practiced by some orthodox Jews and I wish my parents would have participated in this. :D ...our parents are often wiser than us for the many years they have lived beyond our own).

Thank you again for your input, Sis. :hug:

After re-reading your OP, EH, perhaps you are thinking of the "fence" that the rabbis after the Babylonian captivity put around Torah so that the Hebrews could no longer offend God by sinning against his law. Thing was that the "fence" was more of a burden than any of the actual 613 laws were. Checking the actual law, a man could divorce his wife because of some "uncleanness" on her part - not particularly defined but probably sexual, maybe ritual. The Rabbis undoubtedly added a bunch of layers to what would have been fairly clear to the Hebrews of the Exodus!

This is what many Orthodox Jews refer to when they speak of the law. Torah plus, not Torah alone.

Does this make sense? :wave:

Wags

14th January 2007, 01:29 AM

EmbracingHim

14th January 2007, 01:50 AM

Divorce was permitted under Mosaic law - for a particular reason. In scripture there were no additons to that. But in Oral Torah there were additions. Orthodox up hold Oral Torah to be just as important (and sometimes more so) then Torah.

Yeshua stated that divorce was never in Gods plan, but that He allowed it. Yeshua then swept away the man made traditions and brought back the org intent of the law of divorce. He did not change it from when it was given by God.

Oh and yes the mikvah (baptism) at the end of a woman's cycle or after childbirth is commanded by God. Over time there are certain rituals that have come to be associated with it, but the org command definately came from the Most High.

Thank you. I have not heard of the phrase the oral Torah, but apprecriate this as it holds more clarity from my perspective in attempting to understand the increased laws of the OT. :). Indeed, the scriptures state all is allowed, but not all is beneficial...we see this as the state of our world today. I truly wish human kings and governance as it is in the presence were not built as it were, but hind sight is exactly that.

Hugs and thanks. :)