Would You All Agree With This Statement?

[AJB4]

I've been born and raised in a church that doesn't accept any other member of any other church as a Christian. If I leave (which I may very well do), Orthodoxy is my first choice, but I need to know something:

I don't need another Christian religion of an exclusive nature. I've put up with it for 15 years and I'm over it. I know that anything you tell me won't represent the religion as a whole, but I must know:

That that Orthodox church freely accepts other Christians, whether they're Orthodox or not, as what they are: Christians, without bias. I also need to know that members of the Orthodox church don't spend their entire coffee hours slagging off other denominational groups for any differences in beliefs that they may have to you. I need to know that you believe that there is hope of salvation for people in other groups, without looking down upon them for differences in practise that they may have to you. If I fall into another exclusivist church, I don't think I'll be able to handle it.

[Jacob4707]

A book on the subject (i.e., the Orthodox view of the non-Orthodox) that some here apparently like:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox.pdf

However, Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon, editor of Touchstone Magazine and priest at All Soul's Orthodox Church in Chicago, does not regard this book very highly:

In the March 2000 issue of the ecumenical journal Touchstone (p. 38, "Books in Brief" section), a short review appeared by Father Patrick Reardon, a convert to Orthodoxy from Anglicanism. I have reprinted this review in order to demonstrate how dubious it is to write critical comments about a book which, by his remarks, he seems not to have read. My book does not blindly and simplistically defend the thesis he claims, nor does my book rely on spurious quotes from "eccentric fringe groups" (the unnecessary ad hominem remarks are telling). Rather, as any unbiased and honest reader will attest, it contains numerous theological, canonical and Patristic references.

The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside the Church, by Patrick Barnes, Salisbury, Massachusetts: Regina Orthodox Press, 1999 (173 pages; $19.95, paper)

Written by a newcomer to Orthodoxy within the first three years of his coming thereto, this little work shows no familiarity with the long, intricately detailed theological and canonical complexities of the Orthodox Tradition, especially in the literature of its myriad councils over many centuries. The author cites no ancient theological or canonical texts as primary sources and demonstrates familiarity with these sources in neither their original languages nor their historical contexts. The author relies, rather, on the more recent views of certain eccentric groups at the extreme fringes of Orthodoxy.

Indeed, beyond asserting that all non-Orthodox should be baptized upon their entrance into the Orthodox Church (a thesis that the Orthodox Church does not hold nor, in fact, has ever held [and which, in fact, I did not hold in my book!—PMB]), the author says rather little related to the title of the book. Instead, most of the book is spent lamenting the current friendly relations that Orthodoxy cultivates with other Christians (if, indeed, this is the case!)

In short, if someone wants to know what the Orthodox Church believes about those outside of the Orthodox Church, this is a book to be avoided.
—Patrick Henry Reardon

from: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/morris_review.aspx

[MariaRegina]

I've been born and raised in a church that doesn't accept any other member of any other church as a Christian. If I leave (which I may very well do), Orthodoxy is my first choice, but I need to know something:

I don't need another Christian religion of an exclusive nature. I've put up with it for 15 years and I'm over it. I know that anything you tell me won't represent the religion as a whole, but I must know:

That that Orthodox church freely accepts other Christians, whether they're Orthodox or not, as what they are: Christians, without bias. I also need to know that members of the Orthodox church don't spend their entire coffee hours slagging off other denominational groups for any differences in beliefs that they may have to you. I need to know that you believe that there is hope of salvation for people in other groups, without looking down upon them for differences in practise that they may have to you. If I fall into another exclusivist church, I don't think I'll be able to handle it.
I would say that the Orthodox Church would fit the bill.

We are not to judge other Christians.We shouldn't be looking at the splinter in others' eyes when we have a huge log in our own.We are only to look at our own sinfulness and beg God to forgive us and to forgive others who have offended us.
Our Father, Who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name,
Thy Kingdom come; Thy Will be done,
On earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.Finally we are not to gossip or sling mud at other Christians because that is against the law of Christ.
We are to love all as He has loved us, even unto death on the Cross.

[Breaking Babylon]

The Church is a hospital for sinners. If some members have the disease of gossip and slander, remember them in your prayers, but don't blame the Church.

I'll tell you that none of us will go as far as to say that there is no salvation outside of Orthodoxy. The Church holds the perfect roadmap to salvation, we know that if we walk the path of the Saints and persevere to the end we have the hope of salvation. We can tell you where the Church is, but not where it isn't.

There are Christians outside of Orthodoxy who are much more pious, charitable, and prayerful than I. I could use their prayers. This is far from a 'holier-than-thou' Church. Anyone here will admit to their struggles. The Church is perfect, her congregation is far from it.

There is a great hope of salvation outside of the Church. Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, they have a God who loves them dearly. He will have mercy on whom He will. We don't have a dictator in the sky holding us over a pot of boiling water waiting for us to squirm so he can drop us, we have a loving and merciful God who is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I guess what I'm getting at here is don't be disheartened if you hear Joe Schmoe at coffee hour one day slandering this or that person or group of persons. Joe needs prayer. Joe is a sinner, and so are we. This is the path which the Saints have walked, which the blood of the martyrs have paid for, which the gates of hell have not prevailed against -- don't let the sinfulness of those who walk it cloud your view of the horizon.

[AJB4]

The Church is a hospital for sinners. If some members have the disease of gossip and slander, remember them in your prayers, but don't blame the Church.

I'll tell you that none of us will go as far as to say that there is no salvation outside of Orthodoxy. The Church holds the perfect roadmap to salvation, we know that if we walk the path of the Saints and persevere to the end we have the hope of salvation. We can tell you where the Church is, but not where it isn't.

There are Christians outside of Orthodoxy who are much more pious, charitable, and prayerful than I. I could use their prayers. This is far from a 'holier-than-thou' Church. Anyone here will admit to their struggles. The Church is perfect, her congregation is far from it.

There is a great hope of salvation outside of the Church. Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, they have a God who loves them dearly. He will have mercy on whom He will. We don't have a dictator in the sky holding us over a pot of boiling water waiting for us to squirm so he can drop us, we have a loving and merciful God who is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I guess what I'm getting at here is don't be disheartened if you hear Joe Schmoe at coffee hour one day slandering this or that person or group of persons. Joe needs prayer. Joe is a sinner, and so are we. This is the path which the Saints have walked, which the blood of the martyrs have paid for, which the gates of hell have not prevailed against -- don't let the sinfulness of those who walk it cloud your view of the horizon.
Thanks for that.

[Breaking Babylon]

May God bless. :)

[Akathist]

I wanted to support the statements above. We can not know if someone is a Christian or not and we have no right to predict anyone's salvation (even our own.)

Does that mean that we do not sometimes show frustration about practices and ideas of our past christian churches (for us converts) or speak out and say that we do not like this or that (any one practice)? No, we are human. I could never attend the services at my former church again. I found the "worship" to be hallow and unfullfilling. Does that mean I question if everyone there is a Christian or not? Of course not! I just prefer things the Orthodox do. Do I struggle sometimes with encouraging church attendence knowing it is to a church other than the Orthodox Church? yes. Not because other churches are not Christian, but because I personally believe the Orthodox Church is better.

Keep in mind that the Church teaches that salvation of others is something we are not to judge about. That is a decison only God can make. When I say I think the Orthodox Church is better, I am not saying that participation in it is necessary for salvation. But personally, I think participation in it can be extremely helpful for salvation.

Like Blake said, I would encourage you not to judge the Orthodox Church based on the behavior of individual people. Seek first the Kingdom of God and the fullness of Truth, not a group of people you get along with. Eternity is far too important.

[buzuxi02]

In the strictest 'doctrinal' sense, Orthodoxy considers a christian as one who is baptised (usually) and believes in the faith of the nicene creed. For us, jehovahs witness are not christians since they reject the Trinity. We reject the "oneness pentecostals" as well for the same.

Sure theres christians who are not members of the Orthodox Church. We are a conservative church and hold that we are the one true church which is the Church of the Fathers, the one that holds the "fullness" of the faith, but we are not fundamentalists or cultists that say 'none exist outside us'.
We do not claim "everyone else goes to hell". Jesus is the judge at the second coming not us. Heck we even believe that if a person rejects the gospel ,it maybe our fault for not presenting it properly.

[NewToLife]

I think that Orthodoxy is exclusive to some degree in that we believe that the Orthodox faith is alone in representing the fullness of the Christian faith, balanced against this we recognise that the Holy Spirit goes where He wills and is most likely active beyond the borders of Orthodoxy.

[Oblio]

I think if you find yourself in a canonical Orthodox parish you will find that they will hold the views of the Church expressed above. Remember that in any Christian faith, you are likely to find a few who regard members of another group of what you and I would call Christians as non-Christians or at the least hell bound apostates.
As an example, In my previous church before my conversion, as part of a 'discovering your gifts' exercise, I mentioned that it might be profitable to fellowship with Catholics in the local area to find common ground. The room fell silent except for the clacking of jaws hitting the ground. You would have thought that I had suggested all night orgies and sacrifices out behind the church bus. There are also groups or sub-groups here at CF who hold some to be Christian only because the rules mandate that they do. Are EO individuals immune to this ? Certainly not, but the Church does not endorse this behaviour or attitude and in fact discourages it. (at least in my experience)

[Knowledge3]

Orthodoxy invites you to convert and come to the fullness of the truth in the Church.

[ByzantineDixie]

While the Orthodox acknowledge that there are Christians outside of the Orthodox Church...I would also suggest that there is an element of exclusivity in Orthodoxy. For example, the Orthodox would not say the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Methodists, are in "the Church". Further, to become Orthodox and then leave the Church is a very grave thing. But you should have this discussion with your priest.

I also need to know that members of the Orthodox church don't spend their entire coffee hours slagging off other denominational groups for any differences in beliefs that they may have to you.

The Orthodox Church is full of sinners (which is probably why they let me in!), as there are sinners elsewhere. No promises what the people will talk about at coffee hour. However, you will be given the tools of the Christian faith to know what to do, what to pray, and how to love even in these situations.

[eoe]

Question: "If the Orthodox faith is the only true faith, can Christians of other confessions be saved? May a person who has led a perfectly righteous life on earth be saved on the strength of his ancestry, while not being baptized as Christian?

Answer: "For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth [struggleth], but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:15-16). In the Orthodox Church we have the path of salvation indicated to us and we are given the means by which a person maybe morally purified and have a direct promise of salvation. In this sense St. Cyprian of Carthage says that "outside the Church there is no salvation." In the Church is given that of which Apostle Peter writes to Christians (and only Christians): "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 1:3-8). And what should one say of those outside the Church, who do not belong to her? Another apostle provides us with an idea: "For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth" (1 Cor. 5:12-13). God "will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" (Rom 9:18). It is necessary to mention only one thing: that to "lead a perfectly righteous life," as the questioner expressed it, means to live according to the commandments of the Beatitudes—which is beyond the power of one, outside the Orthodox Church, without the help of grace which is concealed within it.

Saint Theophan's response:
With reference to the above question, it is particularly instructive to recall the answer once given to an inquirer by the Blessed Theophan the Recluse. The blessed one replied more or less thus: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

As far as criticism - this is going to vary. Blake's answer above is good. I will add that while we are not to judge others and worry about their salvation - we are also not to become ecumenist and share in the errors of the heterodox. There is a line there.

Love God, keep your own mind in hell and do not dispair.

[michaeldimmickjr]

I've been born and raised in a church that doesn't accept any other member of any other church as a Christian. If I leave (which I may very well do), Orthodoxy is my first choice, but I need to know something:

I don't need another Christian religion of an exclusive nature. I've put up with it for 15 years and I'm over it. I know that anything you tell me won't represent the religion as a whole, but I must know:

That that Orthodox church freely accepts other Christians, whether they're Orthodox or not, as what they are: Christians, without bias. I also need to know that members of the Orthodox church don't spend their entire coffee hours slagging off other denominational groups for any differences in beliefs that they may have to you. I need to know that you believe that there is hope of salvation for people in other groups, without looking down upon them for differences in practise that they may have to you. If I fall into another exclusivist church, I don't think I'll be able to handle it.

to be honest and upfront - yes, there are some at my Church who seem to think they unless you're Orthodox your salvation is in trouble. We are not the judges here. God alone is merciful. definetly not us. I think we could safely venture to say, that in EVERY "denomination" there are people who think that their "path" is the "true" path... why else would they have chosen that way?

as far as bashing other denominations during coffee hour... that never happens, at all. my girlfriend is Roman Catholic and she goes to my Church with me and everyone treats her the same way they treat me... if not better! :D

I hope this helps.

in IC XC,
michael

[choirfiend]

my girlfriend is Roman Catholic and she goes to my Church with me and everyone treats her the same way they treat me... if not better! :D


That's because she's prettier than you;)

[michaeldimmickjr]

That's because she's prettier than you;)

can't argue with that!

[Orthocat]

hmmm...coffee hour at my church is too busy spent stuffing our faces to do much talking :)

Our conversations usually center around a church father's teaching or examining our own lives, or planning events, etc

[DonVA]

You know, AJB4, a good book for you to read is this:

A Tiny Step Away from Deepest Faith by Marjorie Corbman (http://www.explorefaith.org/books/tinystep.html)

I was able to find it at the library. It's not a long book, only about a hundred pages, and is an easy-enough read, It's written by a teenager like yourself when she was 17. She began as jewish, became a neo-wiccan, and when Christ found HER, she converted to Orthodoxy.

Others on TAW know Marjorie as a fellow TAWer, but I discovered her through her book.

[EricTheRed]

Good book

[AJB4]

Thanks guys. I reckon that denominational people will be saved (well, some of them). I think that many of them have gone WAY too off-track (like not baptising members etc.), but I think that God is merciful and on Judgement Day will welcome many humble and lowly sinners into heaven with open arms. Just my opinion.

[eoe]

Thanks guys. I reckon that denominational people will be saved (well, some of them). I think that many of them have gone WAY too off-track (like not baptising members etc.), but I think that God is merciful and on Judgement Day will welcome many humble and lowly sinners into heaven with open arms. Just my opinion.
Agreed. In some cases it might be better for the person that never knew anythin gat all than for the one that had the knowledge and failed to act on it.

Keep your mind in hell, love God and dispair not.

[AJB4]

Agreed. In some cases it might be better for the person that never knew anythin gat all than for the one that had the knowledge and failed to act on it.

Keep your mind in hell, love God and dispair not.
Shouldn't I keep my mind in heaven, rather than hell LOL? :wink: I'd rather not think about hell too much...

[Breaking Babylon]

The Fathers said "Remember your death, and you'll never sin." It'd hard to approach monastic thinking with a Western mindset, I understand. Is it really any different from "Live every day as though it's your last?"

Remember hell and death and stay vigilant and sober.

There was a king who had a wicked son. Having no hope that he would change for the better, the father condemned the son to death. He gave him a month to prepare.

The month went by, and the father summoned the son. To his surprise he saw that the young man was noticeably changed: his face was thin and drawn, and his whole body looked as if it had suffered.

"How is it that such a transformation has come over you, my son?" the father asked.

"My father and my lord," replied the son, "how could I not change when each passing day brought me closer to death?"

"Good, my son," remarked the king. "Since you have evidently come to your senses, I shall pardon you. However, you must maintain this vigilant disposition of soul for the rest of your life."

"Father," replied the son, "that's impossible. How can I withstand the countless seductions and temptations?"

Then the king ordered that a vessel be brought, full of oil, and he told his son: "Take this vessel and carry it along all the streets of the city. Following you will be two soldiers with sharp swords. If you spill so much as a single drop they will cut off your head."

The son obeyed. With light, careful steps, he walked along all the streets, the soldiers accompanying him, and he did not spill a drop.

When he returned to the castle, the father asked, "My son, what did you see as you were walking through the city?"

"I saw nothing."

"What do you mean, 'nothing'?" said the king.

"Today is a holiday; you must have seen the booths with all kinds of trinkets, many carriages, people, animals ..."

"I didn't notice any of that," said the son. "All my attention was focused on the oil in the vessel. I was afraid to spill a drop and thereby lose my life."

"Quite right, my son," said the king. "Keep this lesson in mind for the rest of you life. Be as vigilant over your soul as you were today over the oil in the vessel. Turn your thoughts away from what will soon pass away, and keep them focused on what is eternal. You will be followed not by armed soldiers but by death to which we are brought closer by every day. Be very careful to guard your soul from all ruinous temptations."

The son obeyed his father, and lived happily.

-- Watchfulness: Keeping Your Focus by Saint John of Shanghai and San Fransisco. :crosseo:

[The Virginian]

I've been born and raised in a church that doesn't accept any other member of any other church as a Christian. If I leave (which I may very well do), Orthodoxy is my first choice, but I need to know something:

I don't need another Christian religion of an exclusive nature. I've put up with it for 15 years and I'm over it. I know that anything you tell me won't represent the religion as a whole, but I must know:

That that Orthodox church freely accepts other Christians, whether they're Orthodox or not, as what they are: Christians, without bias. I also need to know that members of the Orthodox church don't spend their entire coffee hours slagging off other denominational groups for any differences in beliefs that they may have to you. I need to know that you believe that there is hope of salvation for people in other groups, without looking down upon them for differences in practise that they may have to you. If I fall into another exclusivist church, I don't think I'll be able to handle it.

I personally came to Orthodoxy from a thoroughly Protestant background, Charismatic Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Southern Baptist (still Charismatic, although the church wasn't), United Methodist, and finally I was chrismated Pentecost Sunday, of 1998. I was baptized as a Charismatic in a river in England; again, I was baptized as a Southern Baptist to submit to the authority of the Pastor and Church (although I didn't think that my baptism in the English river was invalid). I was received into Orthodoxy without having to be baptized again, submitting only a certificate of my baptism from the Southern Baptist church.

The "coffee hour" is spent mostly munching on sweets (if there are any), and talking about what's going on in the lives of those you're talking with! In those few parishes (3) were I've been blessed to attend Divine Liturgy, I've always been received (although you'd be hard pressed to find many Black Eastern Orthodox, who are not in the Coptic jurisdiction)

One can be well received by any congregation; or, summarily rejected. A lot of which depends upon the attitude the attendee to the services has when walking in the door! Then again, the people of the parish may indeed be religious snobs. If however perchance God should lead you to a parish where the people are "standoffish"; don't walk out never to return, God has you there for a reason!

a sinful and unworthy servant

[ByzantineDixie]

If however perchance God should lead you to a parish where the people are "standoffish"; don't walk out never to return, God has you there for a reason!



Oh, you are a sharpie, the Virginian! This is so incredibly true. Which is why we need to be EXTREMELY careful (prayerful!) with regard to "church shopping"--even if they are Orthodox Churches.