circumcision for gentiles

[stone]

I see one answer is that after 3 years, if the gentile wants to become a part of Israel, then they would take on all of the torah observance.

but

what about those that chose to live in their own lands, wherever they may be,

would they be required to be circumcised?

personally, it doesn't make sense to me for them to be, being that the Abrahamic covenant is for his seed and those that live in Israel.

Is this what Paul speaks of when he says that gentiles are not required to be circumcised? They were going into nations teaching about Y-shua, that were not Isreali land.

[plum]

I see one answer is that after 3 years, if the gentile wants to become a part of Israel, then they would take on all of the torah observance.

wanna explain that one? is that something you've heard about when a gentile converts to Judaism?

[stone]

wanna explain that one? is that something you've heard about when a gentile converts to Judaism?


what i quoted is a bit out of context i think, i was reading something from Hadassah in that thread that was linked to the one in gt, i hope you understand, it was something that she replied about circumcision.

I'm just trying to understand this gentiles thing and circumcision.

[plum]

I don't know what threads you're talking about so that's why it's waaay out of context for me sorry *shrug*

We've discussed it a few times before actually. One thing I've heard is that the circumcision being talked about by shaul was like a circumlocution for "Jew"... so when he says (paraphrased) "circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing", that means "Jew meaning nothing, Gentile means nothing"

[stone]

I don't know what threads you're talking about so that's why it's waaay out of context for me sorry *shrug*

We've discussed it a few times before actually. One thing I've heard is that the circumcision being talked about by shaul was like a circumlocution for "Jew"... so when he says (paraphrased) "circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing", that means "Jew meaning nothing, Gentile means nothing"


It's from that Isaiah 66 thread, i didn't want to derail that one so i started up this one.

[Shimshon]

The promise (covenant) made through Avraham was about faith.

Romans 4

9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,


Stone, what you are refering to as the Abrahamic covenant is actually the 'oath' made 430 yrs later.

This was the oath God made with Yisrael at Sinai. It was given to Yisrael to enter into the land and further consecrate them for the comming of 'The Seed' who would set them free from the law of sin and death that only brings wrath. The law was added to multiply transgressions UNTIL the comming of the Seed.



18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Galatians 3
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring (the Seed, or Messiah) should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

The oath was given through a mediator, but the promise was given by God. The Torah is said to act as a 'custodian' or 'schoolmaster' UNTIL the comming of the Seed. When the Seed came he reconciled man to God and fulfilled the oath.

Where there is no law there is no transgression. And no mediator, or custodian to 'put it in place'. God himself is mediating and couciling through the Spirit he blessed us with, as promised through Avraham and his Seed.

Circumcision is a sign, a seal, given 'BEFORE' the oath.

The physical children of Avraham are defined by the sign of circumcision. The spiritual children of promise are defined by the sign of the Spirit.


AND yet, Shaul makes this all so clear.

1 Cor 7
18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.

[Athaliamum]

My views on this subject have changed over the last few months with my studies. I was once very "Gentiles don't need to be circumcised etc" but i've changed my mind. I don't believe that circumcision is required to start on the road to Messianic Judaism but I now believe it is a pitt stop somewhere along the way.

Reasons:
1. It's a commandment of Torah.
To say that this one thing is no longer required under Torah observance is no different then someone else saying that it doesn't matter if a gentile eats non-kosher. It's hypocritical. There are not two sets of Torah - one for Jews and one for Gentiles. Just God's laws which are applicable to everyone who wishes to follow him whole-heartedly.

2. It is a requirement under Torah for a man to participate in Passover that he must be circumcised. We are then told by Yeshua to participate in passover - "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19

3. I believe this verse to have more then a literal fulfillment, but like many of the Torah commands, to have a spiritual implication that effects our eternal shabbat.

"And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the YHVH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land; but no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Exodus 12:48

We know from NT references that one must be circumcised of heart to share in Yeshua, our passover lamb, I have been pondering for a while if it goes beyound just the spiritual though.

4. Physical circumcision, according to scripture, is required in order to enter the millenial temple.

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel." Ezekiel 44:9

[HadassahSukkot]

I really was never taught differently about circumcision until I became further involved into MJ and started really reading up on it.

I'm a girl so it wasn't one of my major concerns if you know what I mean.

I know it was very important to my parents that this be done for my brother when he was a baby, and very important for my grandmother to have done on my father when he was a baby.. and that I have family members who needed things "cared for" after being older..

For me it is a no brainer (not just because I have Hebrew blood and my husband is Jewish) - that this is something not only healthy to do; but a good thing to do when you are in the faith.

The bad thing though is that some passages are talking about ritual conversion that begins with circumcision; and some are talking about circumcision alone.

in Galatians 5 Paul speaks to the fact he is still teaching and is being persecuted for people's assumptions that he is against circumcision (when he's talking about ritual conversion)....
There was another passage but I can't seem to find it right off... :doh:

If Circumcision wasn't so important, I don't believe Paul would have circumcised Timothy... ;)

Like Athaliamum, I see it is a "pit stop" for those who haven't had it done for them when small to rectify that.

If we are joined to the olive tree of Israel; we still have the same playbook as we did before.

We had no different rule in the Torah and Prophets... (we still had to be circumcised to keep the feasts and enter the temple/tabernacle) and are no different now.


I'm always open and learning though.. but thus far haven't found anything in scripture that contradicts..

[Ivy]

1 Cor 7
18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.

I'd have to agree.

[Ivy]

Thankfully, being a female, I need not consider the question very much. ;)

[Espada]

Whilst not actually needing to worry about it to much myself Paul has these words on the subject:
17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. 20 Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.1 Co 7:17[/URL] [URL="http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1"] (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1)

[Wags]

"Keeping God's commands is what counts."

Isn't circ one of God's commands? If one is a theif when God calls him is he to remain a theif? If one is a witch doctor are they to remain a witch doctor?

[Yovel]

Act 15:19-21 "Therefore my judgment is that we don't trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. For Moshe from generations of old has in every city those who preach him, being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."


It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.

James didn't want to overwhelm new believers so he just gave the instruction to "abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood," as being the first steps of following Torah.

I can see how a person just coming into Messinanic Judaism would be overwhelmed if everything had to be done at once. We as parents don't expect our children to do math and English as soon as they are born. I think the Talmidim were using great wisdom.

So, as children brought up in the faith are not required to know all there is right away, the same applies to those who are called out of the church and want to be a part of the Messianic movement.

[StormSeeker]

Circumcision is still and has been a requirement for Gentiles. Aside from what Ezekiel says about uncircumcised not entering the sanctuary. There are in fact 5 different circumcisions in the bible- all fo which are still in full force and relevant to today. There is circumcision in nature (divisions between the different creatures), circumcision of the flesh (it is a bllod covenant- brit milah), circumcision of the ears (hearing the law and applying it) circumcision of the heart (your spiritual commitments), and circumcision of the lips ( Moshe spoke of having uncircumcised lips- this is what Yeshua was refering to about what proceeds from your mouth can make you unclean- nothign to do with food).

It's late so I don't have all the scriptures to post now- if anyone needs me to show these circumcisions with scripture- let me know and I will post them up tomorrow.

The point of this is some of these circumcisions are self-evident (such as the circumcision in nature) which for me points to the validity of the flesh circumcision. God does not change.

As a side note- the WHO did a health study of the effects of circumcision on males in Africa where AIDS is rampant. What they foudn was the study showed the circumcised males where 50% less likely to acquire AIDS during unprotected sex. THey shut the study down after that.

God's Torah is still here and benefits those who keep His law.

Shalom.