Isaiah 66:17

[Athaliamum]

Anyone else like to weigh in on the subject.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4548403-is-eating-pork-still-a-sin-according-to-isaiah-6617.html

[Sephania]

Nope, I no longer participate in acts of futility. :)

[StormSeeker]

I posted some responses to balance things out a little bit.

[StormSeeker]

I must be a thread lock magnet. Somehow I have perverted the NT based on the last post in the that thread.

[Athaliamum]

I think that was just that persons opinion, the OP saw he's remark was not in the christian spirit and asked for the thread to be closed. Oh well. I must admit there seems to be a huge increase in hostility towards the messianic as of late.

[HadassahSukkot]

Yep...
There's a lot of things going down, online & not online... a lot of hostility to anything perceived as "legalism" that isn't nessisarily legalism; but rules.

I find when the rules are those of the bible, many people aren't ready to take them all on...

Baby Steps...

[StormSeeker]

I wish that the Christian community would try a few baby steps in the direction of keeping God's rules. They profess such a love for Jesus, but aren't willing to do more than they think is asked of them in the scriptures. Suppose what they say about Paul is right (and they aren't)- but if they were- why isn't there any among them willing to do more than what Paul said we have to do? Doesn't anyone believe in being on the safe side or doing extra credit?

What I see as the problem is the spirit of rebellion. We all fight it on a daily basis- but many people lack real knowledge of Torah and they have no defense. Yeshua used to Torah to defend againt the devils temptations of rebellion. The various Christians I have dealt with- be it friends or strangers are so spiritually seared in their mind with these beliefs they have.

Tell the average Christian the truth about holy days vs holidays, works & faith, Yeshua vs Jesus, and so on. They cannot fathom how an entire religion got it wrong- that is if you are right.

They will have thoughts like how can 1 billion Christians be that far off or things like Christmas is a tradition- and my parents did it as did their parents, as did theirs etc. These thoughts will generate a very emotional response that can be visceral.

I have lost some friends because they cannot handle my beliefs- even with scripture and history backing. I haven't had any debates or conversations with Christians in a long time until coming onto this board- I have generally avoided after my first 3 or 4 years of trying to talk to Christians.

How do you talk to people who are so spiritually branded? Or better yet- how do you talk to those who like their lifestyle but use Christianity to assuage their guilt? You can't...

Take this verse-

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And this verse-

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

You have a great falling away of faith... I think there will be a huge falling away from Christianity and faith in general when people begin to realize that all of us will have to endure the times of tribulations- that the rapture is not coming.

Oh well... what can you do? It is all in God's hands. This is why the scripture says the many are called and few are chosen and that the road to salvation is a straight and narrow one.

Shalom.

[Torah]

The Same-O same-O. The Dividing wall to keep Jews out. And them self in.
It's all good!

[stone]

Did anybody ever say anything about Isiah 66?

I see that they kept dragging circumcision into the argument.

?The gentiles were never required to be circumcised right? i know if they were going to live within Israel that they would, but what about those that lived in Rome and in their own nations?

[LadyGarnetRose]

I love the "your a pharisee" line. No, I'm not a pharisee, I'm an observant Messianic.

The verse, most applicable, that has nothing to do with Peter, Paul or any of the Apostles is Yeshua's own words, there's no decernment needed with them, quite clear...

NKJV Matthew, 17-19 17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them,] he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[HadassahSukkot]

There are so many misconceptions on the thread, that four or five threads could be made of it to be honest....

For me being a Pharisee isn't bad. There were many sects of Phariseeism and not all of it is bad. Some, yes - but not all.

I'd rather be a Pharisee than Sadducee (denies angels, incarnation; heaven and hell; afterlife)..


As far as circumcision; there is the rite,; and there is the traditional conversion process done by rabbis even back in that day which entailed not only circumcision but taking all of the Torah and oral torah on at once (instead of gradually).

There was another tradition which allows righteous gentiles to associate & stick with what was lain out in Acts; but after three years they were expected to either convert formally or leave the lifestyle.

By three years one should know whether or not they want to be joined to Israel imho.

As far as keeping feasts (Passover etc) you do have to be circumcised per Torah. I don't think that was ever negated.

Just the ritual conversion.

eta: no one actually spoke on the verse except Athaliamum as far as I had read...

Even Shaul argues that he never spoke against circumcision; but the ritual conversion process.

[StormSeeker]

Did anybody ever say anything about Isiah 66?

I see that they kept dragging circumcision into the argument.

?The gentiles were never required to be circumcised right? i know if they were going to live within Israel that they would, but what about those that lived in Rome and in their own nations?

They started out with Isaiah 66- but it ended quick. Some how they think that prophecy does not apply to Gentiles.

As for the circumcision thing- they must not have read this verse-

Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Because this verse mentions both physical and spiritual/mental circumcision- that sanctuary isn't just the physical temple- it is also related to salvation.

Oh I forgot- we don't live in the OT days anymore....

[stone]

I'm starting to get that alot from folks, that we are not under the old testament any more.

Sometimes i'm just completely lost and i just don't understand why the lord has put me on this path. I can't go back now, now that i know the truth. :sigh:

[Athaliamum]

I'm not surprised that I was the only one to talk on the actual verse. Isaiah is pretty damming -

"Those who consecrate and purify themselves
in order to enter the gardens,
then follow the one who was already there,
eating pig meat, reptiles and mice,
will all be destroyed together."

It actually does sound like modern christiandom does it not? Praying for the cleansing righteousness of Yeshua but then following the evil desires of their own hearts.

What I don't get is how they try to negate the words of Isaiah - one of the greatest prophets, who in fact gave a large majority of the Messiah prophecies by which all that believe in Yeshua claim as proof of him being Messiah. Is not a prophet of God meant to have 100% accuracy? How can anyone who says they believe Yeshua is Messiah say that Isaiah got all those prophecies right but is wrong on all other counts? By negating his last words, they negate all of them, leaving them with no foundation of a God or a Messiah!

[StormSeeker]

I'm not surprised that I was the only one to talk on the actual verse. Isaiah is pretty damming -

"Those who consecrate and purify themselves
in order to enter the gardens,
then follow the one who was already there,
eating pig meat, reptiles and mice,
will all be destroyed together."

It actually does sound like modern christiandom does it not? Praying for the cleansing righteousness of Yeshua but then following the evil desires of their own hearts.

What I don't get is how they try to negate the words of Isaiah - one of the greatest prophets, who in fact gave a large majority of the Messiah prophecies by which all that believe in Yeshua claim as proof of him being Messiah. Is not a prophet of God meant to have 100% accuracy? How can anyone who says they believe Yeshua is Messiah say that Isaiah got all those prophecies right but is wrong on all other counts? By negating his last words, they negate all of them, leaving them with no foundation of a God or a Messiah!

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Torah]

I wish that the Christian community would try a few baby steps in the direction of keeping God's rules. They profess such a love for Jesus, but aren't willing to do more than they think is asked of them in the scriptures. Suppose what they say about Paul is right (and they aren't)- but if they were- why isn't there any among them willing to do more than what Paul said we have to do? Doesn't anyone believe in being on the safe side or doing extra credit?

What I see as the problem is the spirit of rebellion. We all fight it on a daily basis- but many people lack real knowledge of Torah and they have no defense. Yeshua used to Torah to defend againt the devils temptations of rebellion. The various Christians I have dealt with- be it friends or strangers are so spiritually seared in their mind with these beliefs they have.

Tell the average Christian the truth about holy days vs holidays, works & faith, Yeshua vs Jesus, and so on. They cannot fathom how an entire religion got it wrong- that is if you are right.

They will have thoughts like how can 1 billion Christians be that far off or things like Christmas is a tradition- and my parents did it as did their parents, as did theirs etc. These thoughts will generate a very emotional response that can be visceral.

I have lost some friends because they cannot handle my beliefs- even with scripture and history backing. I haven't had any debates or conversations with Christians in a long time until coming onto this board- I have generally avoided after my first 3 or 4 years of trying to talk to Christians.

How do you talk to people who are so spiritually branded? Or better yet- how do you talk to those who like their lifestyle but use Christianity to assuage their guilt? You can't...

Take this verse-

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And this verse-

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

You have a great falling away of faith... I think there will be a huge falling away from Christianity and faith in general when people begin to realize that all of us will have to endure the times of tribulations- that the rapture is not coming.

Oh well... what can you do? It is all in God's hands. This is why the scripture says the many are called and few are chosen and that the road to salvation is a straight and narrow one.

Shalom.
I agree 100%, It gets so frustrating at times. They see only what they want to see or what they have been taught to see. 2 Tim 3:4

[praiseyhvh]

I love the "your a pharisee" line. No, I'm not a pharisee, I'm an observant Messianic.

I have heard that line before, too, how I am a pharisee or legalistic.

[HadassahSukkot]

I've often wondered if someone were to answer "why actually, yes I am; thank you! :)" what would happen...

But I think that's the dark side (they have cookies!) talking....

I'm sorry it's so late and my sense of humor/sarcasm is just taking over all over... ;)

[LadyGarnetRose]

I've often wondered if someone were to answer "why actually, yes I am; thank you! :)" what would happen...

But I think that's the dark side (they have cookies!) talking....

I'm sorry it's so late and my sense of humor/sarcasm is just taking over all over... ;)
I've actually done it in the past just to end the conversation. And it did just end the conversation. That person still hasn't talked to me to this day.