Is Martin Luther King Jr. A Saint?

[AJB4]

...or do you have to be Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholic to be considered a Saint? I'm sure you all know who Martin Luther King Jr. is. Great man. A true saint in my opinion. I reckon he's in heaven for sure.:) He had such a great faith in God, it seemed.

[eoe]

The heterodox are never officially declared to be saints. While I have incredible respect for MLK - I would not go writing an akathist for him.....

[Orthocat]

He was a great man, in many ways.

But then some would also say that about Elvis.

What line would you draw?

[AJB4]

Elvis was no Christian :) But MLK was a Christian, Elvis was just....famous.

What must one do to become a Saint anyway? What have some people done who are saints to make them more worthy of 'Saint-Hood' than MLK?

[Jacob4707]

Elvis. Ah, yes. Elvis.

And Duane Allman.

Yes, there is a reason that "being great" isn't sufficient to qualify one for sainthood. :)

To be a saint in the Orthodox Church, it helps to be Orthodox. It helps to have practiced ascetism and spiritual disciplines, and to have left a life or legacy that encouraged others to do the same. It helps to have striven for theosis, and for events after one's death to have substantiated that such was achieved in some measure - e.g., incorrupt body, miracles attributed to one's relics or to prayers to such a person, etc. It helps to have pointed others to Christ first and foremost. If one dies untimely, it helps to have done so for having borne witness to the resurrection and the Gospel and the faith delivered once for all to the saints. Since saints are living embodiments of the Gospel and by their lives are windows to heaven and arrows pointing to Christ, it helps to have lived a life that causes people to be drawn to Christ by the example one set.

I'm sure there are technical definitions, too. These are just my random thoughts as I randomly thought of them.

[AJB4]

Elvis. Ah, yes. Elvis.

And Duane Allman.

Yes, there is a reason that "being great" isn't sufficient to qualify one for sainthood. :)


OK thanks.

[Orthocat]

Elvis was no Christian :) But MLK was a Christian, Elvis was just....famous.

What must one do to become a Saint anyway? What have some people done who are saints to make them more worthy of 'Saint-Hood' than MLK?

Ah, he was. At least he claimed to be. And made many religious southern gospel records...

but anyway...



Duane Allman!! yes....but if I have to hear the full version of "Layla" one more time....oy!!!

[Jacob4707]

Ah, he was. At least he claimed to be. And made many religious southern gospel records...

but anyway...



Duane Allman!! yes....but if I have to hear the full version of "Layla" one more time....oy!!!

I've listened to "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" from the At Fillmore East album probably 500-1,000 times in the last 30 years. :) I'll take a pass on "Layla," too.

[AJB4]

Ah, he was. At least he claimed to be. And made many religious southern gospel records...

but anyway...



Duane Allman!! yes....but if I have to hear the full version of "Layla" one more time....oy!!!
One thing's for certain though - Elvis most certainly didn't die a Christian. When he died, he was a drug-addicted mess.

[Orthocat]

I've listened to "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" from the At Fillmore East album probably 500-1,000 times in the last 30 years. :) I'll take a pass on "Layla," too.


My motherinlaw is an old school hippie. Last Christmas I had that album cover mounted/framed for her. I kinda coveted it myself! :blush:

(She has about 20-30 framed late 60's/early 70's albums on her walls)

[Orthocat]

One thing's for certain though - Elvis most certainly didn't die a Christian. When he died, he was a drug-addicted mess.


Ah, but how do we know he did not ask forgiveness as he died? We cannot judge his heart at that time, right?

But this is beside your point -

There are certain requirements to be met before becoming a saint. For example:
Has anyone received a miracle from MLK?
(Yes, he did shape civil rights to go in the right direction - a miracle in itself - but beyond that...)

He preached more of a social/political gospel from what I have read, and gleaned much from Ghandi (not a Christian). He wasn't so much about bringing souls to Christ I don't think.

But I do understand why you ask.

[eoe]

AJB4 - If you really want to know what makes a Saint a Saint then I give you Saint John the Wonderworker. (http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/lifeidx.htm)You can read about a real Saint that lived in the same timeframe as MLK.

[AJB4]

Ah, but how do we know he did not ask forgiveness as he died? We cannot judge his heart at that time, right?

But this is beside your point -

There are certain requirements to be met before becoming a saint. For example:
Has anyone received a miracle from MLK?
(Yes, he did shape civil rights to go in the right direction - a miracle in itself - but beyond that...)

He preached more of a social/political gospel from what I have read, and gleaned much from Ghandi (not a Christian). He wasn't so much about bringing souls to Christ I don't think.

But I do understand why you ask.
Cool. Thank you.

[Orthocat]

AJB4 - If you really want to know what makes a Saint a Saint then I give you Saint John the Wonderworker. (http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/lifeidx.htm)You can read about a real Saint that lived in the same timeframe as MLK.


I love this saint!!

As someone that keeps taking in children from all over the place...

[michaeldimmickjr]

One thing's for certain though - Elvis most certainly didn't die a Christian. When he died, he was a drug-addicted mess.

that is for God alone to decide...

please forgive me,
michael

[icxn]

Elvis was no Christian :) But MLK was a Christian, Elvis was just....famous.

What must one do to become a Saint anyway? What have some people done who are saints to make them more worthy of 'Saint-Hood' than MLK?
Things like this. (http://sgpm.goarch.org/Monastery/index.php?p=21)

[gtsecc]

He cheated on his wife.

[ufonium2]

He cheated on his wife.

And plagiarized big chunks of his doctoral dissertation and later his speeches. This isn't hearsay; there were official inquiries and, had he not already been dead, they probably would have taken his doctorate. This is not to say he didn't do great things for civil rights, but people set him up as a sacred cow whose flaws cannot be discussed, and that bugs me.

As for Elvis, do you know how much money he gave away? Have you been to Graceland? There are several walls there covered in canceled checks he wrote to organizations and individuals who needed money. Giving away cars was the tip of the iceberg for Elvis; his friends worried that he was going to give so much that he would die broke. And I don't understand who we are to judge that Elvis's drug use was a worse sin than any other, or that it excluded him from being Christian.

[JasonV]

Only Jesus was perfect. Perhaps a nice reminder is needed here.

[Jacob4707]

When the world no longer believes in saints, it creates its own.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Roman Catholic saints are not recognized by the Orthodox Church, unless they are pre-schism and then they actually are Orthodox. Only saints glorified by the Orthodox Church are saints.

[MariaRegina]

Kind of related ...

I heard there was a request by the Lutherans to canonize Martin Luther, the Reformer, and that they wanted the Catholic Church to do the honors. Anyone hear anything about this?

[Matrona]

Kind of related ...

I heard there was a request by the Lutherans to canonize Martin Luther, the Reformer, and that they wanted the Catholic Church to do the honors. Anyone hear anything about this?

That sounds like an April Fool's joke.

[MariaRegina]

More like wishful thinking.

The Lutherans would like him proclaimed a saint.

[gzt]

It would be highly inappropriate for us to claim him as a saint of the Orthodox Church. I mean, you would object if you found out the Mormons practiced baptism for the dead for your great grandfather. It's not appropriate to appropriate a dead man who never practiced your faith in life as one of the faithful.

[buzuxi02]

LOLOLOL, While Martin Luther King was a great civil rights leader but he was not Orthodox.

In fact if it was true, that the lutherans wanted the RC to canonize him, he would still fail the saint test. Rome requires an examination of ones life using pros and cons of why he should be canonized. Unfortunately it is an undeniable fact that Martin Luther King practised adultery. So nope no sainthood for him

[Sothron]

I think its wrong for anyone to proclaim as absolute fact Elvis did not die as a Christian. Only God knows for certain. AFAIK Elvis was a Christian, made many Gospel records and donated millions to various charities. I'm not saying that alone puts him in heaven mind you but just because he died like he did does not mean anything.

And for the record MLK Jr is most definitley not a saint. A great man to be sure with some very earthly flaws but he is not a saint.

[Jacob4707]

And for the record MLK Jr is most definitley not a saint. A great man to be sure with some very earthly flaws but he is not a saint.

Try telling that to some of the people in this country. ;)

Oh, by the way: Happy Martin Luther King, Jr., day next Monday! ^_^

[Sothron]

Any holiday we can get off from work makes me well-disposed to the person we are honoring.

[Kristos]

It's not our place to say who is NOT a saint. We don't know. There are of course people who are declared saints by the Church. This is different than saying that certain people are not saints. Is MLK a saint in God's eyes - I don't know. Has MLK been recognized by any Orthodox chruch as a saint - no, and he wouldn't even be considered a candidate because we was not in Communion with any Orthodox church.

[MikeMcK]

The heterodox are never officially declared to be saints. While I have incredible respect for MLK - I would not go writing an akathist for him.....

Who do you consider to be "heterodox"?

[Kristos]

Don't be offended by the term. It's taken in a wrong way most of the time and probably shouldn't be used. Basicly, this just means that one is a Christian who is not in full communion with the Orthodox church. It doesn't mean heretic. It's not a condemnation.

[gtsecc]

Heretic

Don't be offended by this term either. In reality, no one posting on these forums is a heretic, because no one here is important enough. You basically have to be a Bishop to be a heretic. Then the other Bishops tell you to quit teaching X. If you then continue teaching X, then you are a Heretic.

[Jacob4707]

Don't be offended by the term. It's taken in a wrong way most of the time and probably shouldn't be used. Basicly, this just means that one is a Christian who is not in full communion with the Orthodox church. It doesn't mean heretic. It's not a condemnation.

"Orthodoxy" is defined as "right worship" and/or "right belief" (depending on how you translate the "dox" part).

heteros simply means "other" in Greek. Hence, "heterodox" would mean someone whose worship and/or belief is other than orthodox. And for Eastern Orthodox Christians, that means anything other than Eastern Orthodox. E.g., Jews call non-Jews "Gentiles." It's not a derogatory term, just a statement that a person is not a Jew.

[orthodoxy]

Elvis was no Christian :) But MLK was a Christian, Elvis was just....famous.

What must one do to become a Saint anyway? What have some people done who are saints to make them more worthy of 'Saint-Hood' than MLK?

http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/prolog.htm

go to this site and click to any month with any date....

An example of one of the saints of orthodoxy...


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Archbishop of Myra in Lycia

This glorious saint, celebrated even today throughout the entire world, was the only son of his eminent and wealthy parents, Theophanes and Nona, citizens of the city of Patara in Lycia. Since he was the only son bestowed on them by God, the parents returned the gift to God by dedicating their son to Him. St. Nicholas learned of the spiritual life from his uncle Nicholas, Bishop of Patara, and was tonsured a monk in the Monastery of New Zion founded by his uncle. Following the death of his parents, Nicholas distributed all his inherited goods to the poor, not keeping anything for himself. As a priest in Patara, he was known for his charity, even though he carefully concealed his charitable works, fulfilling the words of the Lord: Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth (Matthew 6:3). When he gave himself over to solitude and silence, thinking to live that way until his death, a voice from on high came to him: ``Nicholas, for your ascetic labor, work among the people, if thou desirest to be crowned by Me.'' Immediately after that, by God's wondrous providence, he was chosen archbishop of the city of Myra in Lycia. Merciful, wise and fearless, Nicholas was a true shepherd to his flock. During the persecution of Christians under Diocletian and Maximian, he was cast into prison, but even there he instructed the people in the Law of God. He was present at the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea [325] and, out of great zeal for the truth, struck the heretic Arius with his hand. For this act he was removed from the Council and from his archiepiscopal duties, until the Lord Christ Himself and the Most-holy Theotokos appeared to several of the chief hierarchs and revealed their approval of Nicholas. A defender of God's truth, this wonderful saint was ever bold as a defender of justice among the people. On two occasions, he saved three men from an undeserved sentence of death. Merciful, truthful, and a lover of justice, he walked among the people as an angel of God. Even during his lifetime, the people considered him a saint and invoked his aid in difficulties and in distress. He appeared both in dreams and in person to those who called upon him, and he helped them easily and speedily, whether close at hand or far away. A light shone from his face as it did from the face of Moses, and he, by his presence alone, brought comfort, peace and good will among men. In old age he became ill for a short time and entered into the rest of the Lord, after a life full of labor and very fruitful toil, to rejoice eternally in the Kingdom of Heaven, continuing to help the faithful on earth by his miracles and to glorify his God. He entered into rest on December 6, 343.



certinly a valid saint would never admit being a saint due to the depths of humility any saint possess...

Martin Luther King said some profound words on a sunny day in the past. True words, yes...saintly? perhaps.... He was a man of conviction and courage....sainthood of Martin Luther King? Naw....

you be the judge after reading a few stories of some of the true saints encountered by sinful man...

kyril

[JasonV]

LOLOLOL, While Martin Luther King was a great civil rights leader but he was not Orthodox.

In fact if it was true, that the lutherans wanted the RC to canonize him, he would still fail the saint test. Rome requires an examination of ones life using pros and cons of why he should be canonized. Unfortunately it is an undeniable fact that Martin Luther King practised adultery. So nope no sainthood for him

If you can make Constantine a Saint, I think you could make Martin Luther King Jr. a Saint.

[Sothron]

If you can make Constantine a Saint, I think you could make Martin Luther King Jr. a Saint.

Absolutely. If he was also the Emperor of Rome and Byzantium and built countless churches and stopped official persecution of Christians by the world's largest empire then he gets in the club.

[Orthocat]

Absolutely. If he was also the Emperor of Rome and Byzantium and built countless churches and stopped official persecution of Christians by the world's largest empire then he gets in the club.

:cool: :thumbsup:

[JasonV]

Absolutely. If he was also the Emperor of Rome and Byzantium and built countless churches and stopped official persecution of Christians by the world's largest empire then he gets in the club.

MLK built up countless churches and stopped the persecution of black Christians by white Christians.

MLK was not an Emperor, but at least he was not a pagan. :thumbsup:

[MariaRegina]

Why haven't the Old Catholics canonized Martin Luther King, Jr.?

Could it be that he doesn't fall within their jurisdiction?
Might not the Baptists become very upset since they don't seem to believe in canonizing a person?


Oh, BTW: the term canonizing can mean two things in the Orthodox Church

(1) acknowledging that a person's life was good and that they are in heaven.

(2) acknowledging that a person has violated a Church Canon and is therefore not allowed to receive any of the Holy Mysteries (holy sacraments) of the Church = excommunication.

[Kristos]

JasonV, You're right. MLK did many great things. Maybe if he had been an Orthdox Christian, he would be considered for the distinction of Saint (a Saint of the Orthdox Church). Maybe if the Baptist church had such a distinction, it might be bestowed upon him. Maybe it already has been in heaven.

[Kristos]

Aria, I don't think that's entirely accurate.

[MariaRegina]

Aria, I don't think that's entirely accurate.
What part are you disputing?

My priest told me that we have to be very careful when using the term "canonizing".

[Sothron]

MLK built up countless churches and stopped the persecution of black Christians by white Christians.

MLK was not an Emperor, but at least he was not a pagan. :thumbsup:

And neither was Constantine. Constantine was in communion with the Orthodox church and IIRC presided over two Ecumencial Councils. What communion did MLK have with the Orthodox Church?

To me its like asking why John and Charles Wesley aren't officially canonized for the work they did with the Methodist Church. Both are great Godly men who did His work, why not reward them?

I imagine God will have amply rewarded them in Heaven the same he did with MLK.

[JasonV]

Why haven't the Old Catholics canonized Martin Luther King, Jr.?

Probably because the Old Catholics are more fragmented than even the Eastern Orthodox!

Wouldn't be too surprised if some one jurisdiction does it though.

And neither was Constantine. Constantine was in communion with the Orthodox church and IIRC presided over two Ecumencial Councils. What communion did MLK have with the Orthodox Church?

How can you be "in communion" when you're not a baptised man?

[Akathist]

...or do you have to be Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholic to be considered a Saint? I'm sure you all know who Martin Luther King Jr. is. Great man. A true saint in my opinion. I reckon he's in heaven for sure.:) He had such a great faith in God, it seemed.

First, one does not need to be only "Greek Orthodox" to be a Saint in the Orthodox Church. You do know there are Russian Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, etc etc. The Greeks do not represent all of our faith by any means. There are tons and tons of saints in the other parts of the world other then from Greece.

You can have a personal devotion to MLK if you wish. There is no rule against that. However, you will not find an icon for MLK written by a true Orthodox Iconographer and his name is not on our calender. There is no toperia or akathist or other prayers written about him by Orthodox. But that does not mean that you as an individual can not consider him a Saint.

___________

About Elvis. In my opinion, no human being has the right to say that any one else was or is not a Christian. That is a decision that God makes and I don't think it is wise to try to tell God what to do or what to think.

I personally believe that Elvis has eternal life and that there is hope for his ultimate salvation.

[The Virginian]

Elvis was no Christian :) But MLK was a Christian, Elvis was just....famous.

What must one do to become a Saint anyway? What have some people done who are saints to make them more worthy of 'Saint-Hood' than MLK?

Actually there are those who will tell you that Elvis indeed was a Christian.
Both the Catholic and Orthodox Church require that verifiable miracles be performed either directly by, or through the relics, of the one in consideration for sainthood. The main difference is in in the number of miracles required, which consequently means a longer amount of time. There has to this very day , not been one verifiable miracle attributed to Rev. King (the equality of civil rights is a political concern, not a spiritual manifestation of divine power).

a sinful and unworthy servant

[choirfiend]

I do not believe the Orthodox Church has any such specific "requirements," especially concerning relics. That is a false statement. Becoming a saint in the Orthodox Church is not meeting a list of requirements.

Sainthood in the Orthodox Church is by large a laity movement, driven by the personal relationship the person may have had, the events of their life, and SOMETIMES miraculous events surrounding the person's actual body. The people who KNEW the saint come to the clergy, and after a long time (around 100 as a good number) the person may be canonized. It may be the person lead a life of quiet sainthood. It may be that they were a martyr or passion bearer. And it may be that they did miraculous things in their lifetime.

[Jacob4707]

...or do you have to be Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholic to be considered a Saint? I'm sure you all know who Martin Luther King Jr. is. Great man. A true saint in my opinion. I reckon he's in heaven for sure.:) He had such a great faith in God, it seemed.

Here you go:

("Icons" of Martin Luther King, Jr., and Mohandas Gandhi - removed by me out of respect for real icons, now that you've had a chance to view them.)

From: http://www.trinitystores.com/

And then, of course, you can attend this church:

http://www.coltranechurch.org/index.htm

(old Website: http://www.saintjohncoltrane.com/)

[Akathist]

Keep in mind that those are not Orthodox Icons. The church mentioned in the link is not an Orthodox church in communion with any other Orthodox Church either from what I can tell. They appear to have invented their own Liturgy and encourage dancing during services from the worship page even.

I am sure they are seeking the Lord in thier own way, but I don't want anyone confused that this is really Orthodox (as in Eastern Orthodox).

[buzuxi02]

Actually there are those who will tell you that Elvis indeed was a Christian.
Both the Catholic and Orthodox Church require that verifiable miracles be performed either directly by, or through the relics, of the one in consideration for sainthood. The main difference is in in the number of miracles required, which consequently means a longer amount of time. There has to this very day , not been one verifiable miracle attributed to Rev. King (the equality of civil rights is a political concern, not a spiritual manifestation of divine power).

a sinful and unworthy servant




Actually the Orthodox Church does not require miracles or relics of any kind to glorify someone a saint.
Like a previous thread said its a lay movement. The laity of the local community who knew the saint, may already recognize him as such.
If he lived a holy life, and those still alive who look up to him are blessed by his life & this bears good fruit, and his reputation spreads because of these good fruits, that particular juridiction can glorify (canonize) him.

Another words the church doesnt make him a saint it just acknowledges the fact to the rest of the world.

[OnTheWay]

...or do you have to be Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholic to be considered a Saint? I'm sure you all know who Martin Luther King Jr. is. Great man. A true saint in my opinion. I reckon he's in heaven for sure.:) He had such a great faith in God, it seemed.

1.The Church will not declare anyone a saint that was not a member of the visible Church.

2.While I don't pass judgement on anyone, if you were to familiarize yourself with the details of Michael King's life, well let's just so it's bad enough that a federal judge sealed his FBI record until 2027.

[Ioan cel Nou]

Probably because the Old Catholics are more fragmented than even the Eastern Orthodox!

Wouldn't be too surprised if some one jurisdiction does it though.



How can you be "in communion" when you're not a baptised man?
Constantine was a long time catechumen (late baptisms being a common practice at the time, not that I'd try to defend such a practice), had long wanted to be baptised in the Jordan and was eventually baptised before his death. And, had he died a catechumen, he would have been afforded a Christian burial as Orthodox catechumens are today - it's considered baptism by desire. In what way could you possibly say that he wasn't in communion? After all, nobody's in communion for all of their life and I don't recall any Church having some minimum requirement for length of time alive after baptism to be considered eligible for sainthood. In fact, both we and the RCs have saints that were never baptised at all. Surely you must have a better argument than this for why you seem to believe Constantine isn't a saint.

I would add, though, that people here have been probably a little too black and white on the issue of being in communion with the Church to be eligible for being considered a saint. Besides those who weren't baptised (martyrs and the like) who can be said to be baptised by blood or desire, there is also at least one saint, St. Isaac the Syrian, who was not in communion with the Orthodox Church (he was a Nestorian, in the sense of being a member of the Assyrian Church of the East - there's nothing obviously Nestorian in his theology) and it wouldn't surprise me to find that we have some saints who were actually OO either, though I don't know of any. They certainly recognise some of our saints.

That doesn't mean, though, that I could ever imagine us glorifying Martin Luther King as a saint. He may well be one, but glorification is about more than just acknowledging that someone is in heaven and MLK, as a baptist, was certainly way beyond the pale so far as beliefs are concerned.

James

[Michael the Iconographer]

Here you go:

http://www.trinitystores.com/.php/catalog.php4?image=70

http://www.trinitystores.com/.php/catalog.php4?image=44

From: http://www.trinitystores.com/

And then, of course, you can attend this church:

http://www.coltranechurch.org/index.htm

(old Website: http://www.saintjohncoltrane.com/)
Please do not reference the heteropractical work of Robert Lentz and company. His paintings make me cringe.

[Kristos]

Please do not reference the heteropractical work of Robert Lentz and company. His paintings make me cringe.
Wow - that is spooky and a little scary.

[Sacrum Silentium]

Agreed. Something about those paintings are kind of unnerving. Nothing I'd ever have in my home.

[Sothron]

I think the paintings would come alive in the dead of the night and go hunting for some Orthodox meat. :P

[Michael the Iconographer]

Wow - that is spooky and a little scary.
He is not Orthodox, and has no business desacrating iconography the way he has done with his paintings.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Agreed. Something about those paintings are kind of unnerving. Nothing I'd ever have in my home.
What is un nerving is they are not Orthodox, but pretend to be iconography, which they clearly are not.

[Kristos]

Wolf in sheep's clothing...

[Matrona]

Keep in mind that those are not Orthodox Icons. The church mentioned in the link is not an Orthodox church in communion with any other Orthodox Church either from what I can tell. They appear to have invented their own Liturgy and encourage dancing during services from the worship page even.

I am sure they are seeking the Lord in thier own way, but I don't want anyone confused that this is really Orthodox (as in Eastern Orthodox).

I think Kath was being facetious.

Or at least I hope he was... I'd hate to think he would have thought that we would venerate John Coltrane. :help:

[Michael the Iconographer]

Keep in mind that those are not Orthodox Icons. The church mentioned in the link is not an Orthodox church in communion with any other Orthodox Church either from what I can tell. They appear to have invented their own Liturgy and encourage dancing during services from the worship page even.

I am sure they are seeking the Lord in thier own way, but I don't want anyone confused that this is really Orthodox (as in Eastern Orthodox).
They are not Orthodox, but their work mocks iconography.

[Jacob4707]

I think Kath was being facetious.

Or at least I hope he was... I'd hate to think he would have thought that we would venerate John Coltrane. :help:

Facetious? Absolutely. In spades.

[Jacob4707]

Please do not reference the heteropractical work of Robert Lentz and company. His paintings make me cringe.

I removed the images from my post, now that people have had a chance to see them; you can go ahead and edit your post to remove them, also.

[Matrona]

Facetious? Absolutely. In spades.

Well, at least somebody here understood what you meant. :hug: ;)

[JasonV]

They are not Orthodox, but their work mocks iconography.

Because they're not Orthodox or what?

[OnTheWay]

Heretic

Don't be offended by this term either. In reality, no one posting on these forums is a heretic, because no one here is important enough. You basically have to be a Bishop to be a heretic. Then the other Bishops tell you to quit teaching X. If you then continue teaching X, then you are a Heretic.

That's actually not true. Anyone can be a heretic, and a lot of people are heretics. Anyone that ascribes to heresy is a heretic. What you are referring to is being officially pronounced a heretic by the Church. Obvioulsy every rank and file member of heretical groups has not be officially declared a heretic.

[OnTheWay]

If you can make Constantine a Saint, I think you could make Martin Luther King Jr. a Saint.


1.St. Constantine was a member of the Church.
2.St. Constantine legalized Christianity and built countless Churches.

The issues is mainly membership in the Church, pointing out that Michael King used donation money to pay for hookers is secondary.

[JasonV]

The issues is mainly membership in the Church, pointing out that Michael King used donation money to pay for hookers is secondary.

So Constantine assasinating his political foes was more Saintly than sex with prostitutes?

Side by side, Martin Luther King was a better man than Constantine.

[OnTheWay]

MLK built up countless churches and stopped the persecution of black Christians by white Christians.

MLK was not an Emperor, but at least he was not a pagan. :thumbsup:

The problem is Michael King did neither of those things. He may have built a few protestant churches that taught heretical doctrines, however the congress of the US enacted civil rights legistlation. Michael King was powerless to do anything on his own, unlike St. Constantine that legalized Christianity all by himself. You call call St. Constantine a pagan if you like, but there's a FBI file so bad a judge ordered sealed until 2027 that would atest to the fact Michael King probably wasn't much of a Christian either.

[gtsecc]

That's actually not true. Anyone can be a heretic, and a lot of people are heretics. Anyone that ascribes to heresy is a heretic. What you are referring to is being officially pronounced a heretic by the Church. Obvioulsy every rank and file member of heretical groups has not be officially declared a heretic.
Not according to Dogmatics professors at St. Vlads'.
According to them, the level of teaching authority of the person is essential before they could be considered a heretic. Now, this argument is starting to get really really picky, but since St. Vlad's thinks it is important distinction to make, I pointed it out.

[JasonV]

The problem is Michael King did neither of those things. He may have built a few protestant churches that taught heretical doctrines, however the congress of the US enacted civil rights legistlation.

Right. So the new MLK memorial in Washington D.C. is being erected with Federal dollars because he was just a minor Protestant minister whose influence was insignificant?

http://www.mlkmemorial.org/

Michael King was powerless to do anything on his own, unlike St. Constantine that legalized Christianity all by himself. You call call St. Constantine a pagan if you like, but there's a FBI file so bad a judge ordered sealed until 2027 that would atest to the fact Michael King probably wasn't much of a Christian either.

Right. He was also a Communist, a pervert, and a tyrant, right? Which Aryan Nations website did you gather this information from again?

[Jacob4707]

The problem is Michael King did neither of those things. He may have built a few protestant churches that taught heretical doctrines, however the congress of the US enacted civil rights legistlation. Michael King was powerless to do anything on his own, unlike St. Constantine that legalized Christianity all by himself. You call call St. Constantine a pagan if you like, but there's a FBI file so bad a judge ordered sealed until 2027 that would atest to the fact Michael King probably wasn't much of a Christian either.

Who's "Michael" King?

[Sothron]

So Constantine assasinating his political foes was more Saintly than sex with prostitutes?

Side by side, Martin Luther King was a better man than Constantine.

Your constant attacks against St. Constantine are getting a bit too much. You are not Orthodox so quite frankly why should you care who the Orthodox consider saints or not? This would be like my invading the Anabaptist forum and demanding they accept Father Peter Smith as a saint because he is a goodly man.

You also were shown to be incorrect abuot Constantine's "paganism" and the fact he was baptized. If you research the Church back then you willl discover it was common practice back then to wait as long as you could in your life to be officially baptized before you died.

[JasonV]

Your constant attacks against St. Constantine are getting a bit too much. You are not Orthodox so quite frankly why should you care who the Orthodox consider saints or not?

Im not trying to abuse St. Constantine. Im using him as an example of a "bad" man who in hindsight was found to be a Saint.

You also were shown to be incorrect abuot Constantine's "paganism" and the fact he was baptized. If you research the Church back then you willl discover it was common practice back then to wait as long as you could in your life to be officially baptized before you died.

He was a Pagan when he was "building Churches" and "promotioting Christianity". I know it was a common practice, since it was considered impossible to be forgiven after Baptism.

But I also think it was a political ploy to keep the Pagan masses happy. I'll drop the subject and ask for the Board's forgiveness on this.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Not according to Dogmatics professors at St. Vlads'.
According to them, the level of teaching authority of the person is essential before they could be considered a heretic. Now, this argument is starting to get really really picky, but since St. Vlad's thinks it is important distinction to make, I pointed it out.

Since when does one professor at a Seminary speak for the entire Orthodox Church in the way the Pope speaks for the Roman Catholic Church? IIRC there is no one in Orthodoxy that has an imprimatur on what he teaches. BOTH sides are correct on this matter. First, to be branded a heretic, most of the times one is a theologian, bishop or priest who is causing widespread controversy with his/her teaching (yes, there are female theologians). However, in a more general case, people who believe heretical things are heretics. Very few things in Orthodoxy are cut and dry, black and white.

[Orthocat]

wow...are we really comparing St Constantine to MLK???

ok...who's next?

St Maximos the Confessor vs JFK?

St Clement vs Michael Moore?

Wait...I have it. St. Cindy Sheehan...


oy...this is not a good thread.

[Sacrum Silentium]

Lord have mercy.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Lord have mercy.
Exactly.

[ufonium2]

Who's "Michael" King?

That was MLK's given name. He started going by Martin Luther, as did his father, later in life. But he never actually changed his name.

[Jacob4707]

That was MLK's given name. He started going by Martin Luther, as did his father, later in life. But he never actually changed his name.

I did not know that. Interesting.

From Wikipedia:

"According to his father, the attending physician mistakenly entered "Michael" on Martin Jr.'s birth certificate.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther_king#_note-0)"

From http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/mlking.asp

1) To this day, questions over the names of both Martin Luther King, Jr. and his father — what names they were given by their parents, http://www.burstnet.com/cgi-bin/ads/sk1874c.cgi/ns/v=1.0J/sz=120x600A%7C160x600A/ (http://www.burstnet.com/ads/sk1874c-map.cgi/ns/v=1.0J/sz=120x600A%7C160x600A/) what names appeared on their birth records, when (if ever) they changed their names — are a subject of murkiness. According to an account Martin Luther King, Sr. gave to a New York Post reporter in 1957, he had always intended his son's name to be Martin Luther, and the appearance of the name 'Michael' in his son's birth records was a mistake due to confusion over his own name: I had been known as Michael Luther King or "Mike" up until I was 22 . . . when one day my father, James Albert King, told me: 'You aren't named Mike or Michael either. Your name is Martin Luther King. Your mother just called you Mike for short.' I was elated to know that I had really been named for the great leader of the Protestant Reformation, but there was no way of knowing if papa had made a mistake after all. Neither of my parents could read or write and they kept no record of Negro births in our backwoods county . . . I gladly accepted Martin Luther King as my real name and when M.L. was born, I proudly named him Martin Luther King, Jr. But it was not until 1934, when I was seeking my first passport . . . that I found out that Dr. Johnson, who delivered M.L., had listed him in the city records as Michael Luther King, Jr., because he thought that was my real name.
No http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/graphics/mlking.jpg records documenting a formal name change for either King yet have been uncovered, so in a strict legal sense one might say that Martin Luther King, Jr.'s name officially remained "Michael" until his death — however, what constitutes a "legal name" can be quite fluid. My own mother, born in the same era as Martin Luther King, Jr., was raised by people other than her birth parents from an early age and did not know her real first and middle names. (Indeed, she did not learn which names were actually listed on her birth record until I obtained a copy of the document for her when she was in her mid-50s.) Nonetheless, the first and middle names she adopted in place of the unknown real ones were listed on every government-issued record pertaining to her created during her adult lifetime (e.g., marriage license, driver's license, Social Security card, children's birth certificates) and were therefore her "legal" names every bit as much (if not moreso) than the ones that appeared on her birth record.

In any case, whether Martin Luther King, Sr. gave a true account of the issue in 1957 (i.e., that both he and his son were officially named 'Martin' by their fathers but called 'Michael' through confusion or mistake) or simply decided in his adulthood that he preferred he and his son be known as 'Martin' instead of 'Michael,' the change was not an affectation on the part of Martin Luther King, Jr. — it was something decided for him by his father while he was still very young.

[MariaRegina]

Parents are told to obtain a copy of their children's birth certificate as soon as possible because errors are quite common.

[MariaRegina]

What is the survey ad doing in the middle of this thread?

I thought that site supporters could opt out of ads?

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=30647084&postcount=81