Fr Seraphim Rose

[kamikat]

I read God's Revelation to the Human Heart on the plane. It was wonderful! Anyone have recommendations on what I should read next? He has so many books, I don't know which to choose.

[Emmanuel-A]

His biography by Fr. Damascene Christensen.

Title "Seraphim Rose : His life and his works".

A big book, but a great read and a good introduction to all what he wrote.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Read the one about "toll houses" ... I would like to do that sometime...

[Emmanuel-A]

Read the one about "toll houses" ... I would like to do that sometime...

I personally do not have the habit to recommend books I have not read.

[Orthocat]

I love all his works. He could be very...strong about what he believed though. But that's why I totally think he was/is awesome.

I would go with "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" next. It will give you a new view of charismatic behaviors..

"The Soul After Death" is a harder book, due to the tollhouse issue and all.

[Nickolai]

I wouldn't recommend the soul after death. Much too controversial. For after death writing I would start with The Future Life According to Orthodox Teaching by Constantine Cavarnos (http://www.ctosonline.org/theological/FL.html)

A little less controversial.

[jckstraw72]

i just ordered the Soul After Death and the Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church, but haven't read either yet. I've heard the Augustine one is very good and balanced.

[ufonium2]

I would recommend "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future." "The Soul After Death" is good, regardless of the Toll House issue, if you've ever wondered about "near death" experiences.

[Orthocat]

Although I will stand and say that I agree with Fr. Rose's views in "The Soul After Death". :P

[gzt]

I think Fr Seraphim is at his best when giving advice on how to live and when criticizing modernity.

[kamikat]

Thanks! I ordered Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.

[Bushmaster78FS]

I personally do not have the habit to recommend books I have not read.

Well, tough! I do.... :P

[Bushmaster78FS]

When you read "Soul after Death" you have to realize that it is not official Orthodox teaching, I have skimmed parts of it. It is based on visions. It could be scary, for a protestant it is flat out madness, but if the Lord is with us then who is against us?

[buzuxi02]

I agree Bushmaster, Toll houses and the visions of such are not official and probably not even orthodox.

If one wants to read A great controversial book by Fr Seraphim Rose i suggest, "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". No matter on what side of the evolution debate your on, the insight using the fathers in this book on creation is astounding.

[Emmanuel-A]

I agree Bushmaster, Toll houses and the visions of such are not official and probably not even orthodox.

If one wants to read A great controversial book by Fr Seraphim Rose i suggest, "Genesis, Creation and Early Man". No matter on what side of the evolution debate your on, the insight using the fathers in this book on creation is astounding.

I would love to read it. It's sadly out of print, and I haven't found an affordable 2nd hand copy yet.

I just got a french translation of his long answer to Dr Alexander Kalomiros on the same subject, seems it's a good foretaste.

[Knowledge3]

I read God's Revelation to the Human Heart on the plane. It was wonderful! Anyone have recommendations on what I should read next? He has so many books, I don't know which to choose.

Beginning to pray by Russian Archbishop Anthony Bloom is an excellent book.

[Orthocat]

I agree Bushmaster, Toll houses and the visions of such are not official and probably not even orthodox.




Heh heh heh...


"If, in setting out for any foreign country or city we are in need of guides, then how much shall we need helpers and guides in order to pass unhindered past the elders, the powers, the governors of the air, the persecutors, the chief collectors! For this reason, the soul, flying away from the body, often ascends and descends, fears and trembles. The awareness of sins always torments us, all the more at that hour when we shall have to be conducted to those trials and that frightful judgement place." Continuing, Chrysostom gives moral instructions for a Christian way of life. As for children who have died, he places in their mouths the following words: "The holy angels peacefully separated us from our bodies, and having good guides, we went without harm past the powers of the air. The evil spirits did not find in us what they were seeking; they did not notice what they wished to put to shame; seeing an immaculate soul, they were ashamed; seeing an undefiled tongue, they were silent. We passed by and put them to shame. The net was rent, and we were delivered. Blessed is God Who did not give us as a prey to them" (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 2, "On Remembering the Dead")."


Does this mean St. John Chrysostom was not Orthodox?

wow... :)

[Emmanuel-A]

It had been a long time since we last had a toll houses debate.

Every good orthodox forum must regularly have one.

[Orthocat]

It had been a long time since we last had a toll houses debate.

Every good orthodox forum must regularly have one.

Oui, definitely. :)

I never knew it was such a hot topic until the last debate!

[Mary of Bethany]

Thanks! I ordered Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.

Good book. I'd really like to read it again.

Mary

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I keep wondering when will be the best time to spring on my priest, "So, what do you think about toll-houses?"

[Orthocat]

I keep wondering when will be the best time to spring on my priest, "So, what do you think about toll-houses?"


Make sure he doesn't have a mouthful of food or drink when you ask! :)

[Orthodox Andrew]

Greetings in the Lord!

I have read most of Blessed Seraphim Rose's works. I would have to recommend first of all reading Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works by Hieromonk Damascene. It is something that touches the heart of many of us converts, and of course even cradles.

In Christ,
Andrew

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Make sure he doesn't have a mouthful of food or drink when you ask! :)

LOL

I doubt that'll happen, because the classes are in the sanctuary after the DL. ;)

[Bushmaster78FS]

Blessed is God Who did not give us as a prey to them...

That speaks volumes... Death and the state of the soul after the death is a mystery, we can not know it exactly, but yes we "may" have an idea. Regardless, most of us wicked sinners, we have no chance to stand guard against these "powers of air", How do we put them to shame with this sinful life we live?...

[buzuxi02]

I keep wondering when will be the best time to spring on my priest, "So, what do you think about toll-houses?"


Nyssa, theres a good chance he's never heard of the toll-houses. I remember asking a ukranian priest once and he tells me, of all the years in the priesthood and the time i spent in seminary i've never heard of something called toll-houses in Orthodoxy, lololol

[buzuxi02]

Heh heh heh...


"If, in setting out for any foreign country or city we are in need of guides, then how much shall we need helpers and guides in order to pass unhindered past the elders, the powers, the governors of the air, the persecutors, the chief collectors! For this reason, the soul, flying away from the body, often ascends and descends, fears and trembles. The awareness of sins always torments us, all the more at that hour when we shall have to be conducted to those trials and that frightful judgement place." Continuing, Chrysostom gives moral instructions for a Christian way of life. As for children who have died, he places in their mouths the following words: "The holy angels peacefully separated us from our bodies, and having good guides, we went without harm past the powers of the air. The evil spirits did not find in us what they were seeking; they did not notice what they wished to put to shame; seeing an immaculate soul, they were ashamed; seeing an undefiled tongue, they were silent. We passed by and put them to shame. The net was rent, and we were delivered. Blessed is God Who did not give us as a prey to them" (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 2, "On Remembering the Dead")."


Does this mean St. John Chrysostom was not Orthodox?

wow... :)




Dear Ortho,
The passage you gave disproves the toll-houses. The angel delivered them without harm thru the air.

St John Chrysostom in his homily (2) on "Lazarus and the Rich Man" he writes:
"Having not the power to bring violence upon the soul, whether in the body or after its departure from it, but according to the words of the Lord, the beggar died and was carried away by angels. Not only the souls of the righteous but also the wicked are carried away."

St Andrew of Crete- "But do not investigate the state of the soul after its departure from the body because it is not for you orfor me to know this. For if we are unable to know the essence of the soul, how should we understand its repose".



As a cradle Orthodox christian with christian roots that go back for centuries, im sure i would of heard something about toll houses. In fact most cradle Orthodox in the old country have never heard of them. Its not mentioned in the canons, in the prayers for the dead, in the funeral service, in scripture, most "yiayias and papous' who are known to speculate on things like this, do not propose a toll house. The evidence for toll-houses is few and far between is not part of the conscience of the church. And this is for a very very good reason.

The toll house speculation usually limited to spurious tales related from a few monks perhaps a quote from here and there, was a non-issue. The toll houses is actually american! American in the sense that it was brought to the forefront and promoted by Rocor of America.

St Ignaty Brianchaninov a firm believer in the toll houses influenced St John Maximovitch who introduced it in america. Then Seraphim Rose influenced by these two saints promoted it to new heights. Because of the popularity of Fr Rose's writings here in america where a plurality of juridictions have access to them the toll houses have become "more" than just speculation. In fact it is Fr Seraphim Rose himself that has made ST. Ignaty popular here in america in which most Orthodox whether russian or not dont know much about him. Thus thru ROCOR and the popularity of Fr Seraphim, has ignited the toll house controversy with the roots of this controversy hailing from California!

[MariaRegina]

Someone mentioned California.

Yes, California.

The land of the nuts, fruits and flakes.

Anyone for spiked fruitcake?


We even have a nutty Governor who doesn't understand the basic principles of accounting or Economics 101.
Universal Health Care ... that will surely bankrupt us.

[NewToLife]

I think the excellent Father Seraphim His life and works is probably a better book than those by Father Seraphim himself ( and that isnt to criticise Father Seraphim's work at all ).

[Orthocat]

Dear Ortho,
The passage you gave disproves the toll-houses. The angel delivered them without harm thru the air.




Yes, the children.

You do have it over me. I am not a cradle Orthodox, just a cradle sinner.
It is true...we do not know what lies in store upon our repose and our departure from this fleshly tent. Will we stay here for three days as some suggest? Will we meet our accusers when leaving? These things I do not know.
But I do know one thing. When it is my time, accidentally early or after many years, I fear and tremble at the prospect that maybe I may have to face those along the way that helped cause my stumbling here. I remember my sins, even forgiven as they are, and hope the little good I have done in thought and deed, my sometimes trembling faith, can sustain me to make it to the place and stand in front of the One that knows me.
I pray it is a rosy path there, but in the meantime I'll take the Boy Scout attitude and "Be prepared".

Forgive me.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Yes, the children.

You do have it over me. I am not a cradle Orthodox, just a cradle sinner.
It is true...we do not know what lies in store upon our repose and our departure from this fleshly tent. Will we stay here for three days as some suggest? Will we meet our accusers when leaving? These things I do not know.
But I do know one thing. When it is my time, accidentally early or after many years, I fear and tremble at the prospect that maybe I may have to face those along the way that helped cause my stumbling here. I remember my sins, even forgiven as they are, and hope the little good I have done in thought and deed, my sometimes trembling faith, can sustain me to make it to the place and stand in front of the One that knows me.
I pray it is a rosy path there, but in the meantime I'll take the Boy Scout attitude and "Be prepared".

Forgive me.

Very good post...

I read on CARM's EO forums that ROCOR and Moscow are uniting, I wonder if they are going to do something about this controversy.

[ufonium2]

As a cradle Orthodox christian with christian roots that go back for centuries....

Do you really think Christianity is embedded in your DNA? That the vast majority of us here don't have "Christian roots that go back for centuries," anyway? And the fact that your grandma isn't familiar with a theological idea is supposed to discount it? My grandma loves Jesus and likes to sing hymns, and that's about it. (And Christianity is bound to be embedded in her DNA, because she's from the "old country,", right?) There's a lot of theology she's not familiar with, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true. Unless your yia-yia is a theologian, I don't see how that is relevant at all.

[Orthocat]

Do you really think Christianity is embedded in your DNA? That the vast majority of us here don't have "Christian roots that go back for centuries," anyway? And the fact that your grandma isn't familiar with a theological idea is supposed to discount it? My grandma loves Jesus and likes to sing hymns, and that's about it. (And Christianity is bound to be embedded in her DNA, because she's from the "old country,", right?) There's a lot of theology she's not familiar with, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true. Unless your yia-yia is a theologian, I don't see how that is relevant at all.


well ya know, if you are a fan of Dan Brown, then you would believe that there are some who are descendants of Christ, therefore it could be possible to have Christianity embedded in your DNA ;)

And all the Old Testament people spoke with British accents...
:)

[Orthodox Andrew]

Greetings in the Lord!

In the Prologue of Ohrid, St. Nicholas of Zica makes it clear that toll-houses exist. In fact, in the lives of the saints, some of the saints whole stories as based around their experiences with the toll-houses.

It's hard to define exactly what a toll-house is. But to make them out to to be some kind of modern invention from some Russian saints, is not the case.

In Christ,
Andrew

[Bushmaster78FS]

How can one experience a toll-house and then come back and report about it?

Regardless, they exist or not, they don't have any effect on our faith, there is SOMEONE we can trust when or if we find ourselves headed to toll-houses to be harrassed and tried and etc... Those were saints who probably avoided the houses, but who are we to do the same thing, if it is up to us... Toll-houses could be a state of the soul after death, maybe confused, vulnerable to harrassment. Prayer and supplication should work then.

[Orthodox Andrew]

How can one experience a toll-house and then come back and report about it?


By the grace of God.

I will quote two of the stories from the lives of the saints as given to us by the Prologue of Ohrid by St. Nicholas of Zica.

2. The Venerable Theodora of Constantinople

Theodora was a nun and servant of St. Basil the New (March 26). After her death, she appeared to St. Gregory, a disciple of Basil, and described for him all twenty toll-houses through which her soul had passed until, through the prayers of St. Basil, she had entered into eternal rest. Theodora presented herself to the Lord on December 30, 940.5. THE MIRACULOUS OCCURRENCE OF TAXIOTIS

Taxiotis was a soldier from Carthage. He spent his entire life in grievous sinsbut finally repented, left the military service and lived a God-pleasing life. While he was with his wife on his estate near the city, he committed adultery with the wife of his farm worker. Afterwards, he was bitten by a snake and died immediately. Taxiotis was dead for six hours after which he arose. Then, on the fourth day, he spoke and related how and what kind of level of judgment he had passed through until he came to the level of judgment [Mitarstvo] for adultery. There, he fell into the dark abode of demons from which he was led out by an angel who attested on his behalf and was sent back in the flesh to repent for his latest sin. He repented for forty days, going from church to church, beating his head against the doors and thresholds, always crying and telling of the terrible sufferings which sinners undergo in the other world. He implored men not to sin but to repent for those sins already committed. On the fortieth day, with rejoicing, Taxiotis took up habitation into the Kingdom of the Merciful God.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Dear Ortho,
The passage you gave disproves the toll-houses. The angel delivered them without harm thru the air.

St John Chrysostom in his homily (2) on "Lazarus and the Rich Man" he writes:
"Having not the power to bring violence upon the soul, whether in the body or after its departure from it, but according to the words of the Lord, the beggar died and was carried away by angels. Not only the souls of the righteous but also the wicked are carried away."

St Andrew of Crete- "But do not investigate the state of the soul after its departure from the body because it is not for you orfor me to know this. For if we are unable to know the essence of the soul, how should we understand its repose".



As a cradle Orthodox christian with christian roots that go back for centuries, im sure i would of heard something about toll houses. In fact most cradle Orthodox in the old country have never heard of them. Its not mentioned in the canons, in the prayers for the dead, in the funeral service, in scripture, most "yiayias and papous' who are known to speculate on things like this, do not propose a toll house. The evidence for toll-houses is few and far between is not part of the conscience of the church. And this is for a very very good reason.

The toll house speculation usually limited to spurious tales related from a few monks perhaps a quote from here and there, was a non-issue. The toll houses is actually american! American in the sense that it was brought to the forefront and promoted by Rocor of America.

St Ignaty Brianchaninov a firm believer in the toll houses influenced St John Maximovitch who introduced it in america. Then Seraphim Rose influenced by these two saints promoted it to new heights. Because of the popularity of Fr Rose's writings here in america where a plurality of juridictions have access to them the toll houses have become "more" than just speculation. In fact it is Fr Seraphim Rose himself that has made ST. Ignaty popular here in america in which most Orthodox whether russian or not dont know much about him. Thus thru ROCOR and the popularity of Fr Seraphim, has ignited the toll house controversy with the roots of this controversy hailing from California!

Thanks for posting this. Now maybe I'll understand if my priest goes, "Toll-houses??" :)

[choirfiend]

I would have to vouch for the accuracy of buzuxio's statement, if my input means anything.

[Greg the byzantine]

I would have to vouch for the accuracy of buzuxio's statement, if my input means anything.

I would too

[Bushmaster78FS]

Taxiotis was a soldier from Carthage. He spent his entire life in grievous sinsbut finally repented, left the military service and lived a God-pleasing life. While he was with his wife on his estate near the city, he committed adultery with the wife of his farm worker. Afterwards, he was bitten by a snake and died immediately. Taxiotis was dead for six hours after which he arose. Then, on the fourth day, he spoke and related how and what kind of level of judgment he had passed through until he came to the level of judgment [Mitarstvo] for adultery. There, he fell into the dark abode of demons from which he was led out by an angel who attested on his behalf and was sent back in the flesh to repent for his latest sin. He repented for forty days, going from church to church, beating his head against the doors and thresholds, always crying and telling of the terrible sufferings which sinners undergo in the other world. He implored men not to sin but to repent for those sins already committed. On the fortieth day, with rejoicing, Taxiotis took up habitation into the Kingdom of the Merciful God.

Thanks for posting, to be honest, I enjoyed reading it. One of the issues that always presented itself is my Protestant thinking, why all these sufferings while Christ already paid on the Cross...

[buzuxi02]

I never meant that Orthodoxy was wired into my dna, lol. What i meant is that i have been around Orthodox people my entire life and ive been told stories and tales and legends and visions.

For instance plenty believe that the soul stays on earth for 40 days and you can make a case for it using scripture; the jews spent 40 years in the desert before entering the promise land, Jesus remained 40 days before ascending to Heaven etc. Yet this too is not an official teaching of the church.

In this forum, we are all from differing jurisdictions, yet i would say most of us heard about the toll houses thru Fr Seraphim or ROCOR or orthodoxinfo.com (which is under an old calendarist group and/was in communion for years with ROCOR and both headquartered in California). There simply is no other jurisdictions whether schismatic or not, in america that promotes toll houses.

I'm not saying that ROCOR in america created this (it has been around and you will find it in greece as well) but thru St. John Maximovitch and moreso thru Fr Seraphim, it was brought out of obscurity and into the mainstream. And has become a semi official teaching of ROCOR.
In the book "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, the birthgiver of God" by St John Maximovitch translated by Fr Seraphim Rose, relates that before her dormition the Theotokos prayed to be delivered from the demons, "He might deliver Her Soul from the malicious spirits that meet human souls on the way to heaven and strive to seize them....."(pg 23) I would say that even those who accept the toll-houses would atleast exempt the Theotokos (simply based on tradition and the liturgical texts) from these demons.

Lets face it in beirut and damascus the toll houses is not something that 99% of the faithful has heard of.

[Nickolai]

I never meant that Orthodoxy was wired into my dna, lol. What i meant is that i have been around Orthodox people my entire life and ive been told stories and tales and legends and visions.

For instance plenty believe that the soul stays on earth for 40 days and you can make a case for it using scripture; the jews spent 40 years in the desert before entering the promise land, Jesus remained 40 days before ascending to Heaven etc. Yet this too is not an official teaching of the church.

In this forum, we are all from differing jurisdictions, yet i would say most of us heard about the toll houses thru Fr Seraphim or ROCOR or orthodoxinfo.com (which is under an old calendarist group and/was in communion for years with ROCOR and both headquartered in California). There simply is no other jurisdictions whether schismatic or not, in america that promotes toll houses.

I'm not saying that ROCOR in america created this (it has been around and you will find it in greece as well) but thru St. John Maximovitch and moreso thru Fr Seraphim, it was brought out of obscurity and into the mainstream. And has become a semi official teaching of ROCOR.
In the book "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, the birthgiver of God" by St John Maximovitch translated by Fr Seraphim Rose, relates that before her dormition the Theotokos prayed to be delivered from the demons, "He might deliver Her Soul from the malicious spirits that meet human souls on the way to heaven and strive to seize them....."(pg 23) I would say that even those who accept the toll-houses would atleast exempt the Theotokos (simply based on tradition and the liturgical texts) from these demons.

Lets face it in beirut and damascus the toll houses is not something that 99% of the faithful has heard of.
The belief was somewhat common in Russia for some time. Since before the Raskol in the 17th century at least:

From the longer canon to the guardian angel in the Old Orthodox Prayer Book

Ode 9, 3rd Troparion
" My whole life I have spent in great vanity, and my end draweth nigh. I beseech thee, my guardian: be my invincible champion and defender when I pass through the toll-houses of the evil world ruler."

And to your comment about Beirut and Damascus, I happen to have a student from Bethlehem, Palestine (not quite the same, but he's far from Russian) living two rooms down from me at Seminary. He is a big fan of ALL of Fr. Seraphim's works. I'll have to ask him what the Monks in the Holy land think about toll-houses when I get back to school.

Reader Nikolai

[jckstraw72]

i dont know anything about this subject, but every time it comes up in TAW it seems ppl provide plenty of quotes from Fathers and even some services that speak of the toll-houses, but ppl still say its not Orthodox or say its just a ROCOR-type thing. i have read nothing about the toll-houses, but it seems from this forum that many saints, including some of the best-known, have written about them, so i dont think we can just discount them as some new "Gnostic" theory.

[choirfiend]

Or translations speak of them....or there are interpretations of passages that people decide speak of them. Leave it to pious ponderings and let the dogmatic faith once delivered to the saints do the rest of the talking.

[jckstraw72]

sure its not dogma, but to dismiss it as not Orthodox is another thing.

[jckstraw72]

and just for my own information...what is it about the toll-house theory that would make it Gnostic?

[iannassah]

Hey there! :wave:
Try reading Romans in The New Testament! :amen:

[choirfiend]

Nah. If it's not dogma (and not even a COMMON belief--buzxio is absolutely right about that) it can be disregarded or disagreed with. That's why it's just an opinion--you can disagree with it in the name of Orthodoxy.

[choirfiend]

Hey there iannasseh,

Orthodoxy teaches that you should learn the Scriptures daily. I think she's asking about OTHER books.

[The Prokeimenon!]

I didn't realize that Fr Seraphim wrote Romans :D

Rdr Moses

[jckstraw72]

so what about the toll-houses is Gnostic. my priest explained it as the demons try to get you to despair over the sins of your life as you are ascending to Heaven....i dont see whats hard to believe about that.

[Vasileios]

Well, I am Greek as buzuxi and call the Orthodox roots card (:P), and I had heard of the toll-houses long before I even heard of the names ROCOR, Fr. Seraphim or St. John Maximovich.

I admit I first heard the english word "toll house" when I read Fr. Seraphim's biography but I had heard plenty of times the term "telonia" and the idea that demons try to taunt you and accuse you of your sins while ascending to heaven. I am pretty sure Elder Porphyrios mentions them, I know for sure Elder Paisios mentions them (the barking dogs that chase you as he said) and I am 100% sure that the demons in the air are mentioned a gazillion times in the gerontikon, stories of the desert fathers. I take these stories very literally.

Oh, and I first heard of the controversy behind these things in Fr. Seraphim's book as well. Didn't know people doubted them.

As for yiayias, I spent time in a village at a funeral learning about the psalms that it is a risky business reading them over the dead. Because then you have to hear the entire book read to you when you are about to die or your soul will not leave the body. Honestly, yiayias are an EXCELLENT source and example of piety that we woulddo well to immitate, excellent source to look for praxis (excellent carriers of traditions-mostly that is, when a bug gets in the system, it stays in the system) but not so excellent when it comes to theology. IMO.

I am curious about one thing. Those who do not agree with the "toll-houses", what is it exactly that they especially dislike, what is it that really stands out as not true?



And choirfriend, with respect, I've seen the quotes of the fathers in Greek and to me there is no doubt what they are saying. But I do welcome an other opinion on what the evil spirits in the air can be. To me it seems very straightforward. It's not like St. John Chrysostom was ever really difficult to interpret. He is one of *the* interpreters in the Church and he speaks very accurately imo, leaving no confusion or doubt as to what he means.

I don't know about specific 20 toll houses or how the visuals of the whole thing are and I don't think that's the point anyway.

[Orthocat]

so what about the toll-houses is Gnostic. my priest explained it as the demons try to get you to despair over the sins of your life as you are ascending to Heaven....i dont see whats hard to believe about that.


yeah, I'm with you.

We do live in a society where people don't want to hear of their "sins", and maybe being confronted with them upon passing is just too much to bear. Perhaps it is too much "fire and brimstone" for our present culture and mindset.

[Orthodox Andrew]

yeah, I'm with you.

We do live in a society where people don't want to hear of their "sins", and maybe being confronted with them upon passing is just too much to bear. Perhaps it is too much "fire and brimstone" for our present culture and mindset.

"No matter how absurd the idea of the toll houses may seem to our ‘wise men’, they will not escape passing through them." – St. Theophan the Recluse

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I asked my priest about this yesterday. He says that it's a pious opinion, allowed as long as it doesn't contradict Scripture, but not necessary for salvation. The work of Christ in redemption is what's important.

[buzuxi02]

Well, I am Greek as buzuxi and call the Orthodox roots card (:P), and I had heard of the toll-houses long before I even heard of the names ROCOR, Fr. Seraphim or St. John Maximovich.

I admit I first heard the english word "toll house" when I read Fr. Seraphim's biography but I had heard plenty of times the term "telonia" and the idea that demons try to taunt you and accuse you of your sins while ascending to heaven. I am pretty sure Elder Porphyrios mentions them, I know for sure Elder Paisios mentions them (the barking dogs that chase you as he said) and I am 100% sure that the demons in the air are mentioned a gazillion times in the gerontikon, stories of the desert fathers. I take these stories very literally

Oh, and I first heard of the controversy behind these things in Fr. Seraphim's book as well. Didn't know people doubted them.

As for yiayias, I spent time in a village at a funeral learning about the psalms that it is a risky business reading them over the dead. Because then you have to hear the entire book read to you when you are about to die or your soul will not leave the body. Honestly, yiayias are an EXCELLENT source and example of piety that we woulddo well to immitate, excellent source to look for praxis (excellent carriers of traditions-mostly that is, when a bug gets in the system, it stays in the system) but not so excellent when it comes to theology. IMO.

I am curious about one thing. Those who do not agree with the "toll-houses", what is it exactly that they especially dislike, what is it that really stands out as not true?



And choirfriend, with respect, I've seen the quotes of the fathers in Greek and to me there is no doubt what they are saying. But I do welcome an other opinion on what the evil spirits in the air can be. To me it seems very straightforward. It's not like St. John Chrysostom was ever really difficult to interpret. He is one of *the* interpreters in the Church and he speaks very accurately imo, leaving no confusion or doubt as to what he means.

I don't know about specific 20 toll houses or how the visuals of the whole thing are and I don't think that's the point anyway.


Dear Vasileios,

I cannot accept the toll-houses. 'Usually' the teaching on this, is that both the repentant and the unrepentant will pass thru them. The evidence from the liturgical texts are scarce, almost non- existant except for a phrase or a word in a few prayers which can be seen to support it, ( but they can be intepreted in other ways as well.)

In the Canon for the Service of the Dying (ode 4) we chant: '' I turn my eyes toward the bright angels and cry out aloud; give me alittle more time, but no one hears me, because death cannot be postponed."


The angels escort our souls is not disputed and i do not dispute that demons reside in the air, but theres no evidence to suggest that the wicked are escorted by demons. St John Chrysostom believes both the holy and the wicked souls are escorted by the angels of God.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus is indeed escorted by an angel but nothing is said of the rich man.

If one is a baptised christian regardless of his piety, Theres a guardian angel assigned to him. If the angel does his job, i dont see how demons can get a hold of you.

If you are pious; the gospel teaches in John 14.2-4, That in heaven theres many mansions, prepared for the saints Jesus goes on to state, " I will come again to recieve you to myself that where i am there you maybe also".... No lapse time for demons to terrorize you.

To the repentant thief Jesus said, " Today, you will be with me in paradise" this echos the above verses.

Toll houses also contradicts Scripture in other ways. An aspect of the toll-houses is fear, yet scripture implys that the demons will fear the saints, not the other way around, and that theres nothing to fear but God himself :

Luke 10.16- "......Do not rejoice in this, that spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven"

Jesus says "Fear not he who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, fear he who can kill both Body and Soul in Gehenna."

Psalm 23.4 "....Though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death , I will fear no evil. For you are with me."

Now if the toll houses are meant to be experienced only by the wicked, this could be plausible.

And it has nothing to do with watching the movie "Ghost" with Demi Moore and Patrich Swayze.

For me the stories of the monastics are more allegory than reality, that perhaps thru these visions one who is unrepentant will come to repentance. The stories associated with toll houses are easy to grasp.

With that said I believe the best "pro" example for toll houses is the icon of the "Ladder of Divine Ascent". The icon clearly shows demons pulling down those climbing it, but those are the wicked souls only. Genesis 28.12 makes mention of this ladder with mention of holy angels only, descending and ascending upon it.

For me the holy icon is a vivid (as are the gerontas stories) way of portraying the teaching of Jesus: "Strive to enter thru the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able." (Luke 13.24 & Matt 7.13-14).

With the Church Fathers we can go both ways, some believed them others rejected them outright. This will be the last i write on this, but i too would like to read the thoughts of others.

[repentant]

The controversy behind them is that the anti tollhousers have a wrong interpretation of what they mean. From what I read, they say that demons judge us..that is not the case. They just accuse us, and try to keep us from ascending.

Angel's guide us throught this, and are in our defense. Just like the angel who escorted St. Anthony the Great was in his defense when the demon tried to accuse him.

The toll house teaching is well documented throughout the history of the Church.

[Dust and Ashes]

I thought the Ladder of Divine Ascent icon was a representation of people living their lives, striving to climb the ladder, rather than a representation of people ascending to heaven after death.

[choirfiend]

It is.

[Bushmaster78FS]

I am curious about one thing. Those who do not agree with the "toll-houses", what is it exactly that they especially dislike, what is it that really stands out as not true?


Like repentant said, first time I heard of these and researched a little, I was afraid that I was going to be judged by these evil demons and taken away, I thought I was on my own right after death, and I thought it was a picture like the movie "Ghost" buzuxi02 mentioned.

I am more confident in this issue and my eyes are on Christ who saves me. I despair enough of the sins I committed already, and that is the harrassment these demons are causing. Toll-house argument says that they will continue this harrassment as you move upward.

[MariaRegina]

Morbid fear is not of God.

The trouble is that those new in Orthodox upon learning of the tollhouses (not the cookies), can and do panic.

Some of our catechumens stopped the catechumenate and left Orthodoxy because the tollhouse teachings seem so unbiblical and created so much fear in them.


Since the tollhouse theological opinion is not dogma, it should no be stressed.

We should rightfully only teach two things:
Repentance - true sorrow for all sins and a sincere desire to cease all sin, and
Love of God and Love of one's neighbor

[Padraig]

It seems to me that the trouble with the toll-house theory is that it treats the righteous and the impious equally. It seems unreasonable to me that given the witness of Scripture, and the lived experience of the early Church as expressed in the liturgical texts, and writings of the Apostolic Fathers, to believe the toll-houses are a reality - at least as it concerns Christians. It is hard for me to believe that the martyrs, who were/are subjected to so much torture for the cause of Christ, will then have to face the demon-accusers of the toll-houses. This doesn't seem to fit with what we profess about Christ.

I think, as I've said before, that the lack of support for such a belief in Scripture, and our liturgical texts, makes it clear that the toll-house theory is just that, a theory. In every service of the Church, we pray for a Christian ending to our life, painless, unashamed, peaceful, and for a good defense before the fearful judgment seat of Christ (Archbishop Dmitri's translation). If the toll-house theory was as prevalent as some would suggest, it would've found its way into our liturgical texts. For example, the above litany might be phrased thus: a Christian ending to our lives, painless, unashamed, peaceful, and for grace to lead us through the aerial toll-houses, etc.

As a theological opinion, I'm not in love with it. I wouldn't go so far as to call it heretical or any such. But it is not, nor has it ever been, a consensus teaching of the Church, and to present it as such, seems to me to be a bit on the dangerous side considering again the way that the righteous and impious are treated.

In peace,
Dn Kevin

[ThePilgrim]

The belief was somewhat common in Russia for some time. Since before the Raskol in the 17th century at least:

From the longer canon to the guardian angel in the Old Orthodox Prayer Book

Ode 9, 3rd Troparion
" My whole life I have spent in great vanity, and my end draweth nigh. I beseech thee, my guardian: be my invincible champion and defender when I pass through the toll-houses of the evil world ruler."

And to your comment about Beirut and Damascus, I happen to have a student from Bethlehem, Palestine (not quite the same, but he's far from Russian) living two rooms down from me at Seminary. He is a big fan of ALL of Fr. Seraphim's works. I'll have to ask him what the Monks in the Holy land think about toll-houses when I get back to school.

Reader Nikolai
Iyad! Awesome guy! Tell him I say hello.

[repentant]

It seems to me that the trouble with the toll-house theory is that it treats the righteous and the impious equally. It seems unreasonable to me that given the witness of Scripture, and the lived experience of the early Church as expressed in the liturgical texts, and writings of the Apostolic Fathers, to believe the toll-houses are a reality - at least as it concerns Christians. It is hard for me to believe that the martyrs, who were/are subjected to so much torture for the cause of Christ, will then have to face the demon-accusers of the toll-houses. This doesn't seem to fit with what we profess about Christ.

I think, as I've said before, that the lack of support for such a belief in Scripture, and our liturgical texts, makes it clear that the toll-house theory is just that, a theory. In every service of the Church, we pray for a Christian ending to our life, painless, unashamed, peaceful, and for a good defense before the fearful judgment seat of Christ (Archbishop Dmitri's translation). If the toll-house theory was as prevalent as some would suggest, it would've found its way into our liturgical texts. For example, the above litany might be phrased thus: a Christian ending to our lives, painless, unashamed, peaceful, and for grace to lead us through the aerial toll-houses, etc.

As a theological opinion, I'm not in love with it. I wouldn't go so far as to call it heretical or any such. But it is not, nor has it ever been, a consensus teaching of the Church, and to present it as such, seems to me to be a bit on the dangerous side considering again the way that the righteous and impious are treated.

In peace,
Dn Kevin

Well it is taught that the Pious, Martyr's, Saints, and those who lived piously in life,etc. will pass right by them. If you read the Life of St. Anthony the Great, when St. Athanasios mentions them, it kind of says this. He says the demons had nothing to accuse him of.

Apsotlic Father's did write about them. And the reason they are not in Liturgical texts, is because as some have already said, it is not Dogma.

[Nickolai]

Iyad! Awesome guy! Tell him I say hello.

I told him, He says hello back.

And I asked him about what the view of the monks in the Holy land is on Toll houses. He said that they pretty much agree with what Fr. Seraphim taught. He also told me that they teach the belief at Balamand. So that's pretty interesting.

Reader Nikolai

[repentant]

I told him, He says hello back.

And I asked him about what the view of the monks in the Holy land is on Toll houses. He said that they pretty much agree with what Fr. Seraphim taught. He also told me that they teach the belief at Balamand. So that's pretty interesting.

Reader Nikolai

I would pretty much bet that most of the Monks in the motherlands agree with them. I know Athos Monks do, and most of them probably never even heard of Fr. Seraphim Rose.

[theoforos]

From the longer canon to the guardian angel in the Old Orthodox Prayer Book

Ode 9, 3rd Troparion
" My whole life I have spent in great vanity, and my end draweth nigh. I beseech thee, my guardian: be my invincible champion and defender when I pass through the toll-houses of the evil world ruler."


That's what it says also in the canon to the guardian angel in the book of prayer canons published by the Orthodox church of Finland. It always feels kind of confusing to pray that part of the canon. On one hand, it is said that the toll houses is just a "pious opinion" you are not obliged to believe, but on the other hand you are supposed to use it in your prayers... :confused:

Some time ago found the following quote which I translated into English for another purpose. I believe I took it from the Filokalia... If the toll houses are to be understood in the way that is described in the quote, I don't think it is such a frightening thought after all.


St. John of Karpathos

“When the soul departs from the body, the enemy will attack it, fiercely reviling it, accusing it of its sins in a harsh and frightening manner. But a soul that loves God and believes in Him will not be frightened by the attacks and the threats of the enemies, even if it has often been wounded by sin, but it is strong in the Lord. The joy will give it wings, and it will get courage from the holy powers that protect it. It will be surrounded by the light of faith, and from its shelter it will yell at the wicked devil: "What do you have to do with us, you evil servant, who have been separated from God and thrown away from the heaven? You don’t have any power over us. Christ, the Son of God, is our Ruler and the Ruler of all. Against Him we have sinned and to Him we will reckon. As a token of His saving grace we have His glorious cross. You evil one run far away from us. You don’t have anything to do with the servants of Christ". As the soul courageously speaks like this, Satan turns around and flees crying and moaning because it cannot resist the name of Christ. Thus, the soul ascends higher and higher, trampling the enemy and spanking it like an eagle teaching a lesson to a crow. After this it will enter eternal joy as God’s angels take to the place it belongs to according to its condition.”