Western Wall [open]

[plum]

Okay this is basically two topics in one (double for your money!)

1) I just read an article about there being a risk of collapse at the entrance to the WW http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3347606%2C00.html
Within the next few days, the Western Wall authorities will begin demolishing Mugrabi hill, after it was discovered that the dirt paving beneath it was at risk of collapsing, along with the temporary wooden bridge that was built at the site.
Mugrabi Gate is the only opening through which Jews may go up the hill, and destroying the hill will prevent this as well.

what do you think about this news? How do you think this will affect the area during reconstruction?

2) The comments under the article are interesting. It seems that some people believe that the WW is an example of an object that has become idolized and even worshiped. The arguments sound much like the ones between Messianics and Christians about the cross being worshiped or by Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants about icons, statues, and crucifixes. Do you see both sides of that argument? If so, what do you think? Is it just a misunderstanding by those who aren't inside Judaism? On a side note, there are a few comments about Yeshua made which I found interesting :) The way people interact online is so telling of many things, wouldn't you say?


Please keep this civil, charitable, and thoughtful. Thanks :)

[Desperate4Him2]

I saw that article! Is this the same entrance as any except Muslim must use to enter the Temple Mount? Jews and Gentiles alike?

[HadassahSukkot]

For me, the wailing wall is a big, BIG symbol of what was, and is no more, and we hope will be there again in our lifetime and in our days.

I do think it is idolized by some, but it is a symbol and a place to go colletively to pray and worship.

I don't know if most people know this, but it is illegal for anyone to daven on the Temple Mount at this time, so the closest we can get is either through the ancient tunnel system (which is heavily guarded and I believe still illegal to do) and at the Wailing Wall.

The Wailing Wall itself was part of the building structure of the palace, garrison and temple compound.

The romans used the area for "crowd control" in that there was easy access from the palace to the temple up and over the area which is now the Wall.

I have had the desire for many a year to make it to the wall, touch it and be there. I have had a vision or two about it also, that I am still trying to grasp meaning from.

There is so much misunderstanding about the Temple, Temple complex and the Wailing Wall.

Good places to learn about them (online) that I have found thus far are:

The Temple Institute (http://www.templeinstitute.org/)
Wikipedia
Revava (http://www.revava.org/) (though I obviously don't agree with everything there - Yisrael Cohen is a good Temple resource contact. He works in printing books about the Temple ;))

Temple Mount Faithful (http://www.templemountfaithful.org/)

ThirdTemple.com (http://www.thirdtemple.com/IntroductionToThirdTemple.html)


Another thing to note, until being totally written off and persecuted for our beliefs in the early centuries (after the Temple's destruction) by fellow believers who do not hold the same beliefs; we too were praying the same liturgy that the Temple Be Rebuilt, and Messiah Return.

There are those of us Torah Observant ones who still do this.

here is some on the liturgy (http://www.thirdtemple.com/IntroductionToThirdTemple.html) (though not very authoritative or extensive)

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/prayer.htm is more extensive, but there are better sites imho.

The prayer is as follows, but sometimes varies from this text:


Be merciful, L-rd our G-d, to Your people Yisrael, to Your city Jerusalem, and to Zion, the dwelling place of Your glory, to the royal House of David, Thine anointed, and to the great and holy Temple that was called by Thy name. Our G-d, our Father, tend us, feed us, sustain us, maintain us, and comfort us. Grant us speedy relief, L-rd our G-d, from all our troubles. And please, L-rd our G-d, let us not need other people's gifts or loans, but only Your filled and open hand, holy and bountiful. So that we may not ever be shamed or humiliated. Rebuild Jerusalem, the holy city, soon in our days. Blessed art Thou, L-rd, who in Your mercy builds Jerusalem."
LEADER:
(The Ya'aleh V'Yavo--which is also said in the Amidah, morning service--actually depicts the bringing of a festival offering to the altar. In the time of the Temple, the Jews came on pilgrimage laden with voluntary offerings to the Temple at Yerushalayim. The steps to the Temple are irregularly spaced instructing us that we do not enter into the presence of G-d in haste. Rather we pray the eight stages by which our verbal remembrances come before G-d:
EVERYONE:
Our G-d and G-d of our fathers, may there ascend, come forward, draw near, appear, be accepted, be heard, counted and remembered before You Our remembrances and our recollections:
The remembrance of our fathers, The remembrance of the Messiah, son of Thy servant David, The remembrance of Yerushalayim, Thy Holy City, And the remembrance of all Thy people, the House of Yisrael (So that we may in turn receive from You) [cf. 1 Cor.11:29c-30] Deliverance, goodness, grace, loving kindness, mercy, life, and peace on this Day of ______*.[*Title for the Festvial/Sabbath] Remember us, L-rd our G-d on the day of _______* for good; Think of us on This Day of _________* for blessing; Save us on ________* for a good life.
By the promise of salvation and mercy, spare us and be gracious to us, have mercy upon us and save us, For our eyes are turned to You, For You art a gracious and merciful G-d King. Amen.



IMHO there is a lot of misunderstanding of the operation of the Temple and the offices of Priesthood as well as Y'shua's place as the High Priest and what our job is operating within that, as well as the Millenial Temple and Sacrifices that will be offered there.

Much comes from tossing scriptures we feel don't apply to us aside, or not learning from things we think are "inconsequential" / "not for us"...

Whilst they may not be for our life, they may be for our children's, and they apply to us spiritually if not physically and we need to be careful to take that into account..

Just my 50cents ;) (I know, I know, you asked for 2!

[ChavaK]

I am not sure it is going to be a big factor since it is virtually impossible for Jews to go up on the Temple
Mount anymore. The last two times I tried, we were
denied entrance by the Palestinians (while the Israeli
guards stood by and did nothing) even though at
that time it was supposed to be open to Jews.
The few times Jews are allowed up, they cannot
carry a siddur or Tanach and are not allowed to
daven there. Although I do have a friend who went
up last year (one of the few groups who fought
hard enough to get in) and snuck in some quick
davening :)
The Kotel is not worshipped in and of itself...it
is the remnant of the Temple support wall and
by davening there we are attempting to elevate
ourselves and our davening by being as close
to HaShem's house as possible. I have been
at the Kotel many many times and have never
seen anyone treat it as something to be
worshipped itself. Anyone who has that opinion
is simply either misinformed, or misinterpreting
what they are seeing if they are at the Kotel...

[AbiYah]

:hug: Chava, good to see you again! :hug:


I have some friends that were going to ascend to the Mount a few different times and they have often been denied access, and one time there was a lady who went with her husband and she tripped... because she was "down" they said she was praying, and her husband tried to help her up (she had skinned knees and the like); and they were in trouble for "PDA" (personal displays of affection)...


The interrogation they received from the PA on that one... it was just awful!


One day, I pray soon, this travesty will be stopped

[Athaliamum]

It is an interesting article. I do have a small feeling that if something were to happen to the WW there would be some benefit in it. Let me explain myself. While it still stands, the general populatioin still have somewhere to visit, to worship, to pray. It's presence may be leading a sort of apathy on the rebuilding of the third temple, a dream which at the moment only seems to belong to the "zealots", though the number of hopefuls increases. If something were to happen to it, it might create a greater stir to actually build the third temple and usher in the second coming of our Lord. Just a thought. While I don't want to seem to diminish it's importance, especially in light of it's history but it does seem to be a crutch for holding on to the past. IMPO

[ChavaK]

:hug: Chava, good to see you again! :hug:


Thank you...don't get to post here much anymore
due to the [open] post limitations, so it is always
a pleasure to be able to do so...
hope all is well with you :)

[ChavaK]

One day, I pray soon, this travesty will be stopped

I hope so too....the Israeli government needs to
develope a backbone and allow Jews to daven
and have access there.
Anything else is seen as a weakness and will
only contribute to further problems...

:wave:

[Sephania]

And it will be trodden down by the gentiles, until their time comes to an end.

What I fear is that if this is taken down to make it better, something will happen in the interim to keep it from being rebuilt.

There is nothing hidden that HaShem won't cause to be brought to light in his timing.

[BoazB]

I find this interesting in the light of the Temple described in Ezekiel, especially the measurement of the doors and where they stand. When measured in cubits, and divided into two, 6 and 14, make 3 and 7. I think of access to the Almighty, especially when the numbers are given symbolic significance (as with Gematria).

[Talmidah]

I hope so too....the Israeli government needs to
develope a backbone and allow Jews to daven
and have access there.
Anything else is seen as a weakness and will
only contribute to further problems...

:wave: :thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

:thumbsup:

Happy Birthday, Talmidah!

:)

[Talmidah]

Happy Birthday, Talmidah!

:)
Thank you Chava!!!! :) :) :) :)

[Wags]

Hippo birdies two ewes Talmidah!

[HaNotsri]

Yom Huledet Someach Talmidah!

I know first hand what it's like trying to get to Har HaBayit, thank G-d I was actually able to get there.

I went with a right-wing Jewish friend of mine. I am not sure if any of you realize the halachic machlokes (argument) between Haredi Jews and non-Haredi Orthodox Jews about ascending the Har HaBayit. But there some of those who say it's halachically forbidden because Israel is impure and also the possibility of walking into the area of the Qadosh haQ'doshim. The more nationalistic Orthodox Jews (those in the yishuvim and other typically Zionist Orthodox Jews) follow the Ramb"m and have a specifically designated path that is halachically permissable to circumvent. My friend (who is Orthodox) wanted me to follow the halachically acceptable path when I went up.

In any event, any Jew who had any sense would first purify himself or herself in mikva'os prior to ascent. There is also a basin for washing your hands entering the kosel area that I washed my hands in (obviously being a non-Jew, I am not allowed to go to mikva'os). Remember, "who may ascend the Hill of the L-rd? He who has clean hands and a pure heart."

When we got to the gate it was about 45 minutes prior to it closing to Jewish and Christian pilgrims. Right now, non-Arabs are only allow to ascend for two hours in the morning and one hour in the afternoon. There is of course, a police station right there to make sure no one is a security threat. We were continuously stalled. Group after group was allowed in before us. Generally those persons who are valid, legal tour guides and are with large groups are allowed onto the mount before anyone. Why? Because those tour guides don't want to lose their license if they cause trouble or their clients do.

Well after a while they finally started the process to let us in. We were told by no less then three policeman that there is no praying up there allowed, we couldn't bring any Bibles, and that no blessings could be said (like on drinking water, Orthodox Jews say a blessing prior to eating or drinking anything). They promptly told us that if any of this was seen we would be forcibly removed from the mount. Good times.

We got into the police station and gave them identity papers (in my case, my passport) and they gain let other people through and stalled us (I guess they were checking us out to be sure we didn't have any prior altercations while ascending the mount). We finally go through. We took our shoes off at the gate and entered into the most beautiful place I had ever seen. The very spot of the Holy Temple (may it be speedily rebuilt).

When we first got up there, our "escorts" (being two police officers and real sneaky Moslem waqf official) didn't initially follow us. Quickly my friend declared the Sh'ma several times. Then we saw our first batch of escorts (two police officers) come into the area to watch us and he quickly shut his mouth. During our time on the mount I took several pictures. We had no less then 20 guards (altogether) following us all the time and we had at least one waqf official that trailed us even when the Israeli police officers switched. It was great.

If anyone wants to see pictures of my visit up there, I'll be happy to post!

Kol Tuv,

Michael

[insaneinthebrain]

This week's edition of A Light Unto the Nations has a roughly 20 minute discussion of the hosts' recent trip up to the Temple Mount. It's an interesting perspective, if nothing else. (these two guys don't accept Yeshua, so you may want to stay away from my link if that bugs you ;))

http://israelnationalradio.com/#light

ETA: This link is only good until Tuesday

[HadassahSukkot]

This is very interesting (and pleasing) to hear HaNotsri; and thank you also insaneinthebrain for the link :)