When did Sunday worship start as opposed to Saturday??

[firestar]

Any ideas of when and why??

[HadassahSukkot]

Ok i have a few things for you right off.

www.newadvent.org (http://www.newadvent.org) < -- catholic encyclopedia. Try researching Sabbath and both Nicean Councils ;)

www.wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.org) < -- another great start

and from our FAQ:

Sabbath Day (http://www.christianforums.com/t3095556-sabbath-day.html)- When do Messianics worship?
Have You Seen this Argument? (http://www.christianforums.com/t1103183-have-you-seen-this-argument.html)
[Open]Shabbat and the L-RD's DAY (http://www.christianforums.com/t3109584-[open]shabbat-and-the-l-rds-day.html)
What Does Shabbat Mean to You? (http://www.christianforums.com/t1166216-what-does-shabbat-mean-to-you.html)
Common argument against Shabbat and Mosaic Law (http://www.christianforums.com/t3106850-common-argument-against-shabbat-and-mosaic-law.html)

By all means this is not "complete" in what you will find.
I have other things at home, but will post them after shabbat if I can't find them sooner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath
http://www.gotquestions.org/Constantine-Sabbath.html

Hopefully this isn't Too much information.

"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy, catholic, apostolic church of Christ."--Episcopalian Bishop Seymour said in "Why We Keep Sunday."


Cyril of Jerusalem
"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).

Read about a miracle in Jerusalem during Bishop Cyril's episcopate here (http://bibleprobe.com/cyrilofjerusalem.htm).

Early Christians did gather on Sundays to worship. - The first Christians held strictly to the doctrines taught by the apostles. For them, this was "the truth" from which they ought not to deviate ... Acts 2:42, Jude 3f, 11 Timothy 2:2, Titus 1:9, Romans 6:17
Today, both Catholic and most Protestant leaders claim that Sunday observance is in honor of Christ's first resurrection appearance which happened on the first day of the week. Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26).


Acts 20:7 states: And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

[This time frame is what is known as "Havdalah" or a "Love Feast" - typical Jewish Tradition at the end of Shabbat you have what is called "ONEG" - which is eating and sharing a communal meal]



The Didache, is also known as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles". It is an ancient Christian text that was probably a catechism, used by the early Church.

And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled; for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord; Didache, paragraph 14 (probably written between 70-140 A.D.)

The Letter of Barnabas (of Alexandria)
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius of Antioch
Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

Justin Martyr
"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).
"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Tertullian
"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

[HadassahSukkot]

The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 225 A.D.).

Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

Victorinus
"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World 300 A.D.).

Eusebius of Caesarea
were accustomed to observe the Sabbath and other Jewish customs but on the Lord's days to celebrate the same practices as we in remembrance of the resurrection of the Savior. (Church History Ill.xxvii.5)
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).
"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

Athanasius
"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).

Council of Laodicea
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]).

John Chrysostom
"[W]hen he [God] said, ‘You shall not kill’ . . . he did not add, ‘because murder is a wicked thing.’ The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath— ‘On the seventh day you shall do no work’—he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? ‘Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make’ [Ex. 20:10-11]. . . . For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: ‘You shall not kill. . . . You shall not commit adultery. . . . You shall not steal.’ On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition" (Homilies on the Statutes 12:9 [A.D. 387]).
"You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul’s words, that the observance of the law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews?" (Homilies on Galatians 2:17 [A.D. 395]).
"The rite of circumcision was venerable in the Jews’ account, forasmuch as the law itself gave way thereto, and the Sabbath was less esteemed than circumcision. For that circumcision might be performed, the Sabbath was broken; but that the Sabbath might be kept, circumcision was never broken; and mark, I pray, the dispensation of God. This is found to be even more solemn than the Sabbath, as not being omitted at certain times. When then it is done away, much more is the Sabbath" (Homilies on Philippians 10 [A.D. 402]).

The Apostolic Constitutions
"And on the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food" (Apostolic Constitutions 350-400 A.D.).
Augustine
"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ‘the letter that kills’ [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

Pope Gregory I
"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these [men] but preachers of Antichrist, who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord’s day to be kept free from all work. For because he [the Antichrist] pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord’s day to be held in reverence; and because he compels the people to Judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, ‘You shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day’ [Jer. 17:24] could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ, has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered. He must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the apostle Paul saying in opposition to him: ‘If you be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing’ [Gal. 5:2]" (Letters 13:1 [A.D. 597]).
"The [Catholic] church took the pagan buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, [the Roman] temple to all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs: so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sun day . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. Balder the beautiful, the White God, the old Scandinavians called him. The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . There is, in truth, something royal, kingly about the sun, making it a fit emblem of Jesus, the Sun of Justice. Hence the church would seem to have said, 'Keep that old, pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus. The sun is a fitting emblem of Jesus. The Fathers often compared Jesus to the sun; as they compared Mary to the moon."--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809. [Dr. Gildea (1856-19 14) was rector of St. James Catholic Church in London].


"In the year 321 the Emperor Constantine, who was not yet a declared Christian, but was still hovering between paganism and Christianity, issued a decree making Sunday a compulsory day of rest: but the fact that he speaks of Sunday as 'the venerable day of the Sun' [the pagan sun-worship title for the day] shows that he was thinking of it as a traditional sun-festival at the same time that he thought of it as a Christian holy-day . . . Sunday came to be observed throughout Europe as it is still observed by Roman Catholics, namely, as a day on which, like our Christmas, people went to church in the morning and then gave themselves over to rest or to holiday-making and sports."--Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, pp. 236-237. [A. D. Weigall (1880-1934) was a British historian, Egyptologist and inspector-general of antiquities for the Egyptian Government].
"At this time in early church history it was necessary for the church to either adopt the Gentiles' day or else have the Gentiles change their day. To change the Gentiles' day would have been an offense and a stumbling block to them. The church could naturally reach them better by keeping their day."--William Frederick, Three Prophetic Days, pp. 169-170.
Sylvester I (314-337 A.D.) was the pope during the reign of Constantine. Here is what he thought of the Bible Sabbath: "If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be execration [loathing or cursing] of the Jews."--quoted by S. R. E. Humbert, Adversus Graecorum calumnias 6, in Patrologie Cursus Completus, Series Latina, ed. J.P. Migne, 1844, p. 143.

Hear what the first real Protestant (Reformer), ex-Catholic Monk, Martin Luther Says in his commentary on Exodus 16:4, 22-30, regarding the Sabbath:

"Hence you can see that the Sabbath was before the Law of Moses Came, and has existed from the beginning of the world". Especially have the devout, who have preserved the true faith, met together and called upon God on this day."

As to the cause of the conversion of Constantine from heathen superstitions to the Christian faith, Philostorgius, in conformity with all other writers, ascribes it to his victory over Maxentius, in a battle in which the sign of the cross was seen in tile East, vast in extent and lit up with glorious light, and surrounded on each side by stars like a rainbow, symbolizing tile form of letters. The letters too were in the Latin tongue and formed these words, “In hoc signo vinces.”

[Wags]

If you really want the indepth history of the change, try reading the book From Sabbath to Sunday (http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/sab2sun.pdf) - by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocch (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/author/index.html). The book in its entirety is available as a pdf at the link provided. (This was his doctorial thesis and is some pretty heavy reading.)

[firestar]

Thank you!! :wave:

I've read through all five threads about keeping Sabbath- I haven't gone into the catholic website in any kind of depth. To be honest, catholic verbiage really confuses me- almost like it's *supposed* to be confusing lol!

But I'm going to dig into that to see what I see.

As for those threads, I came away with a couple of questions...

In one thread, it's said that Sunday worship was an attempt to meld with the worship the "sun god" (which I've heard). But in another thread which linked to an article- the article was hinting at the fact that early church believers (as evidenced in the bible) met on Sunday to fellowship and tithe.

So now I'm confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown... or do both days of observance have their own unique purpose... ie: Saturday to rest and reflect on God's goodness etc.. and Sunday to worship and rejoice in that goodness??

[plum]

Good questions. My brief attempt at an answer is this: I don't know the truth about the sun-god thing. I honestly would need to find better scholarship than what I see on most websites to understand the history.

also, I am one of those sort of rare Messianics that doesn't mind attending church or Bible Studies with non-Messianics. Shabbat is Shabbat. It is a day of rest and gladness in HaShem. Sunday is the first day of the week, one of the six when work is to be done. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with worshiping or gathering with others on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday... any day. But none of those days takes anything away from what Shabbat is, was, and always will be.

too short and not very helpful, I know. But I've gotta go to lunch! ta

[Wags]

In one thread, it's said that Sunday worship was an attempt to meld with the worship the "sun god" (which I've heard). But in another thread which linked to an article- the article was hinting at the fact that early church believers (as evidenced in the bible) met on Sunday to fellowship and tithe.

So now I'm confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown... or do both days of observance have their own unique purpose... ie: Saturday to rest and reflect on God's goodness etc.. and Sunday to worship and rejoice in that goodness??


The "evidence" in scriptures needs to be read in context. Paul instructs them to set aside money on the first day of the week (before spending it on something else) for when he comes - there is no mention of it being collected weekly. Plus an observant believer (remember they were all zealous for the Torah) wouldn't have handled money on the Sabbath (no buying or selling, so no need to have it).

The first day of the week starts at sundown after the Sabbath is over. So when Paul preached until midnight BECAUSE he was leaving in the morning.... it was obviously a special meeting becuase he was leaving. The other times that it mentions the believers being together it was in the evening (Saturday night) and they weren't holding religious services they were hiding.

There is nothing in scrpiture that says that the day of worship appointed by the Most High has ever been changed or ever will be changed. (Isaiah 66:23)

[Torah]

Thank you!! :wave:

I've read through all five threads about keeping Sabbath- I haven't gone into the catholic website in any kind of depth. To be honest, catholic verbiage really confuses me- almost like it's *supposed* to be confusing lol!

But I'm going to dig into that to see what I see.

As for those threads, I came away with a couple of questions...

In one thread, it's said that Sunday worship was an attempt to meld with the worship the "sun god" (which I've heard). But in another thread which linked to an article- the article was hinting at the fact that early church believers (as evidenced in the bible) met on Sunday to fellowship and tithe.

So now I'm confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown... or do both days of observance have their own unique purpose... ie: Saturday to rest and reflect on God's goodness etc.. and Sunday to worship and rejoice in that goodness??
So now I'm confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the Sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown... or do both days of observance have their own unique purpose... ie: Saturday to rest and reflect on God's goodness etc.. and Sunday to worship and rejoice in that goodness??

G-d spoke very clearly that Sabbath was on the 7th day of the week. From the very beginning of time he established this. You say your “CONFUSED” G-d is the G-d of order, not confusion.
You decide witch day is G-ds Sabbath?. I would have to say that most if not all here are not confused about witch day is G-ds Shabbat. By the way, Shabbat Shalom.

[HadassahSukkot]

Amen Wags!

I have a hard time because I find I do best to lock my purse away before services on Shabbat.

They pass the pushka around asking for offerings and tithes.. I think it's an issue leftover from some of the other congregations and a fear that if we put an offering box or Tzedakah box up, people won't give. (sure, only if you don't announce it's there!!)

If everyone else waited until after havdalah to gather money in Paul's day, we can wait too!

[Wags]

Pauls society is one that operated primarily on a cash basis. So telling people to set aside money on the first of the week, just meant that they were to do it before they started spending it on themselves. I don't think a collection was taken up until he actually came since the passage is talking about him taking it to the less fortunate in Jerusalem.

It distrubs us greatly to see collections taken up on Shabbat. We have usually managed to convince congregations that we have belonged to to at least switch to a tzdeakah box as a compromise. Personally we would prefer that money issues be handled at other times.

[HadassahSukkot]

I totally agree...

However I have to fence myself due to spending being my big issue. There's a bookstore and it's technically 'open' on shabbat... and they get new stuff in with music and some messianic books. Since they're so hard to find, they are quite a temptation. I put my purse where I can't access and temptation is removed. ;)

[plum]

Do you think giving charity is a form of buying and selling that would desecrate Shabbat?

[Wags]

Do you think giving charity is a form of buying and selling that would desecrate Shabbat?
If you are donating money to a charity, can't you just as easily donate it on another day?

Yeshua said it is good to do good on Shabbat, but that doesn't mean that you do those things that could be done on other days. For example, iIf you are feeding the hungry - obviously they need food every day. But if you are donating to the soup kitchen you could just as easily make that donation on any other day of the week.

[AbiYah]

If you are donating money to a charity, can't you just as easily donate it on another day?

Yeshua said it is good to do good on Shabbat, but that doesn't mean that you do those things that could be done on other days. For example, iIf you are feeding the hungry - obviously they need food every day. But if you are donating to the soup kitchen you could just as easily make that donation on any other day of the week.
Yes, this is so very true.

We are told not to buy nor sell, and the tradition has been that one does not carry money at all on a Shabbat, regardless if it be plastic, bills or coins.


Also, days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. As soon as the Sun-sets, it is Shabbat.

As soon as the sun sets tomorrow, it's the first day of the week ;)

Collecting money should be done before shabbat or after. not during, as it detracts from the whole meaning. I don't think one should clean up in the congregation on Shabbat either, it can wait a few hours..!

[plum]

If you are donating money to a charity, can't you just as easily donate it on another day?

Yeshua said it is good to do good on Shabbat, but that doesn't mean that you do those things that could be done on other days. For example, iIf you are feeding the hungry - obviously they need food every day. But if you are donating to the soup kitchen you could just as easily make that donation on any other day of the week.
In those situations, I agree with you.
there are certain situations in which i would follow your thoughts and also some when i would not abide by them. But I was just curious in general at the idea.

it's interesting though... that charity and serving someone is seen as buying or selling.

it's a pretty good idea not to carry money at all. You know,. it's never occurred to me to do that. this would help me be able to say not to my friends when they want to hang out :)

[Wags]

I
it's interesting though... that charity and serving someone is seen as buying or selling.



I'm not sure how you got that from my post. :scratch:

Doing something for someone that could just as easily be done on another day - isn't a matter of buying/selling it is a matter of refraining from doing "ordinary work". I could mow my elderly neighbors law on Shabbat afternoon - but since cutting grass isn't a life or death sort of deal, then it could just as easily be done some other day. But if the power was out, and she needed wood to keep her stove going - I would go and get it for her. Keeping warm can be a matter of life and death, especially for an elderly person in poor health.

[Athaliamum]

Sorry I have to disagree here. I think that Shabbat is the perfect time to give to charity rather then any other day. I believe it to be part of the spirit of shabbat. Also if there was a resource that would help me in my relationship with God, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it on shabbat. The whole point of shabbat is about getting to know God better and spending time in his presence, neither of those things interfer with that.

[Wags]

Nehemiah 13:15-22
15 During this time I saw in Y'hudah some people who were treading winepresses on Shabbat, also bringing in heaps of grain and loading donkeys with it, likewise wine, grapes, figs and all kinds of loads; and they were bringing them into Yerushalayim on the day of Shabbat. On the day when they were planning to sell the food, I warned them not to. 16 There were also living there people from Tzor who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on Shabbat to the people in Y'hudah and even in Yerushalayim. 17 I disputed with the nobles of Y'hudah, demanding of them, "What is this terrible thing you are doing, profaning the day of Shabbat? 18 Didn't your ancestors do this, and didn't our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you are bringing still more fury against Isra'el by profaning Shabbat!" 19 So when the gates of Yerushalayim began to grow dark before Shabbat, I ordered that the doors be shut; and I ordered that they not be reopened until after Shabbat. I put some of my servants in charge of the gates, to see to it that no loads be brought in on Shabbat. 20 The merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Yerushalayim once or twice, 21 until I warned them, "Why are you spending the night by the wall? Do it again, and I'll use force against you!" From then on they stopped coming on Shabbat. 22 Then I ordered the L'vi'im to purify themselves and come and guard the gates, in order to keep the day of Shabbat holy. My God, remember this too for me, and have mercy on me in keeping with the greatness of your grace!

[Athaliamum]

Wow...I'm sorry, but what proof is that verse of not proforming charity on Shabbat? It's talking about them doing those things for personal profit. There's a big difference between doing something for personal profit and doing something to help those in desperate need.

Matthew 12:2-7
On seeing this, the P'rushim said to him, "Look! Your Talimidim are violating Shabbat!" But he said to them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and those with him were hungry? He entered the House of God and ate the Bread of the Presence!" - which was prohibited, both to him and to his companions; it is permitted only to the cohanim. "Or haven't you read in the Torah that on Shabbat the cohanim profane Shabbat and yet are blameless? I tell you, there is in this place something greater then the Temple! If you knew what 'I want compassion rather than animal-sacrifice meant, you would not condemn the innocent.

Be careful not to fall into legalism here. I'm sorry to say that IMPO I find this view to be unbalanced and against the spirit of Torah and the spirit of Shabbat. While shabbat is our gift from God, we are to live by the spirit of it. We are now priests of God's temple and doing good on shabbat for the benefit of others then ourselves does not allot on us blame. I would not leave for tomorrow the help that I could give those in need today. To do so would be a violation of "love thy neighbour" and the many other Torah rules the come under that heading. I would not break 30 laws that are of the heart and spirit to keep 1 that is in the context of personal gain anyway.

[Wags]

I've said it a couple of times already in this thread, but I guess I'm not being clear. If there is an emergency and steps need to be taken to preserve life, then it should be taken care of.

In my opinion NON-EMERGENCIES can and should be handled on another day. Buying a book or a CD because you want it (regardless of how good or uplifting it might be) is not an emergency.

[Athaliamum]

Well, I think on this point we will have to agree to disagree.

In those situations I will do as the spirit leads. I do not think that we should wait until people are desperate enough to deserve the term emergency before I act.

And when I talk of buying resources I'm not talking of happy praise music etc. to make me happy or feel nice but study guides, resources to develop a greater relationship with Hashem. I will not seek them out but if I come across them and feel lead that these would be good in developing that relationship I wouldn't see it as a contridiction of shabbat, as I see the purpose of shabbat is to grow in our relationship with God.

I keep shabbat, it is important to me, but I have a different idea of what it is to profane it. If your conscience would convict you in this instance, that's completely fine because that's between you and God, but it doesn't convict me. I have no problem with your personal conviction, what I do have a problem with is the idea that everyone else should share it.

I believe there is a big difference between transactions for personal wealth and desire, which have their root in selfishness and greed, then transactions of charity and self-education is direct relation to God.

I must ask, and this is by no means an attack but a question of reflection - do you use any electricity, gas, petrol, water from your tap, flush your toilet etc on a shabbat? These are all transactions that you just don't neccessarily pay for on the day of shabbat but still are using that require transaction for that day. The person at the electricity plant has to work that day, the sewage worker has to work that day to provide it. So while your personal actions might not directly constitute work, your actions may require someone else to in these incidences. If we can flush a toilet, surely we can buy reasources that directly grow our relationship with God, surely we can give to charity before it's an emergency. Just a thought.

[Wags]

Yes we can give/do charitable deeds before they become an emergency that is what we have all week for. That is why Paul says to set aside funds on the first day of the week - before you spend it on something else. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Since I take scripture at face value when it says do not buy or sell on Shabbat I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

As for using electric/septic/water etc.... not everyone lives in the city or is connected to the grid. Just something to reflect on.

[Sephania]

I hope the OP who is a guest here;) questions have all been answered, if not please ask away! Good converstaions, but lets not forget the topic. :)

[visionary]

As for using electric/septic/water etc.... not everyone lives in the city or is connected to the grid. Just something to reflect on.Maybe the sabbath gives us motivation to get off the grid, starting with for conscience sake, then for our sake as the world gets worse.

[Tishri1]

I hope the OP who is a guest here;) questions have all been answered, if not please ask away! Good converstaions, but lets not forget the topic. :)yeh like she said;) When did Sunday worship start as opposed to Saturday?? (http://www.christianforums.com/t4525348) :wave:

[StormSeeker]

Mark 12:41 ¶And Yeshua sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

It is perfectly acceptable to give your tithe and offering on Shabbat. As you can see above- Yeshua who has a Levite lineage through Mary sat across from the where the monies was collected and he never condemned giving on Shabbat when he called the disciples over to comment on the widow's two mites.

The limitations on money is purely to do with making profit and doing business. If you need to eat, or some other emergency arises- using your credit/debit/check card isn't going to get you into hot water with God. If you can avoid it- great. If not- I don't think it is a salvation issue.

That said- the Hebrews had to come to the temple three times a year for the holy days. That means many out of town Hebrews were in town for these assemblies. You can bet when they went to the store they used credit to get food (preserve life)- back then you word was good as gold- so they would come back the next day and pay up.

Shalom.

[Wags]

That text doesn't say that it was on a Shabbat - the temple was open every day of the week. So using that to say it is okay to handle money on Shabbat is a real stretch.

And if things could be purchased on Shabbat why does scripture say that the women waited to get the spices to annoint Yeshua's body until after Shabbat was over? Certainly preparing the body of their master for burial was of utmost importance, but yet they waited.

But here is the kicker - things couldn't be purchased on Shabbat - because that would involve selling. So no markets were NOT open. I know its a difficult concept for us to understand we are so used to stores being open 24/7. I grew up in a town where everything closed up on Shabbat. It was a wonderful peaceful time, and the merchants were in services on Shabbat like everyone else.

There is a reason for the preparation day (friday) it was a day to get ready for Shabbat. But we seem to have lost the idea of preparing ahead of time - we forget to gather the double portion on the 6th day so that we will be ready for the 7th. As my mother used to say when I would forget something that I needed for school - a failure to plan on your part , does not constitute and emergency on my part. Suffering the natural consequences of failing to plan, ( for example missing a meal or two) is a great motivator for remembering things ahead of time.

[HadassahSukkot]

Wags, great point.

I also agree that the Temple Treasury was not operated on Shabbat, nor the High Holidays. This would be common knowledge of the time; but lost to us if we do not know the operations in practice.

I think this is a thought provoking article (http://www.aish.com/torahportion/shragasweekly/Shabbos_-_Tabernacle_of_Time.asp) from Aish.com

Though not about the temple, it really provokes one to think about resting on Shabbat.

Here are the talmudic laws for shabbat as provided by Aish.com (http://www.aish.com/shabbatlaws/shabbatlaws/Laws_of_Shabbat_for_Beginners.asp) for beginners.


If you want to make real the idea that God is Creator, you must stop creating. Otherwise it is a beautiful concept that remains in the theoretical.
On Shabbat the world is complete. I am complete. Shabbat is the weekly reminder of this completeness. We recognize it, but the only way to make it happen is to live it, to emulate it.
When God says, "Six days a week you will do all your work," He is not just talking about making the office deadlines. He is talking about us, and how we strive to work on ourselves.
Shabbat is there, calling us to where we want to be: self-actualization; nature; oneness; completion. The ideas are within reach; grasping them means heading in the right direction. The path is halacha.


On Shabbat, we avoid weekday activities such as shopping, and thus money is Muktzah, among the objects that have no purpose on Shabbat and thus are not to be moved. Bills (which of course can't be paid) are also muktzah.
How to approach it: Put away wallets, purses, and loose change before Shabbat begins.


I do have a disagreement about vehicles (and writing), as if I did forsake mine; I would be forsaking the assembling Y'shua (and Torah) command of believers. We meet about 30 miles from where I work and where I live...

[visionary]

When did sunday replace sabbath... when the tower of babel was built....

[Tishri1]

When did sunday replace sabbath... when the tower of babel was built....amen!:clap:

[Athaliamum]

When did sunday replace sabbath? The main argument used for the change of the "Lord's day" is the idea that when Yeshua was raised from the dead, it was a Sunday. So now Sundays are the day of worship negating the original Shabbat.

Unfortunately this is simply not true on both counts. The fact that 1. God doesn't negate himself and;
2. Yeshua was raised on a Shabbat, not a Sunday.

With those things in mind it kinda blows the apologetics of the day change out of the water.

If you would like to read more on the day Yeshua died and was resurrected here is a link:http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/whenres.htm

Keep in mind when you read this, that a Jewish day starts at sunset when three stars can be seen. So when the women went to Yeshua's tomb first thing on the first day so it would have been getting dark and stars would have been out on what we would consider a Saturday night and by the tiime they got there, he'd been raised and gone.

[StormSeeker]

That text doesn't say that it was on a Shabbat - the temple was open every day of the week. So using that to say it is okay to handle money on Shabbat is a real stretch.

You are correct the text does not say that. Upon closer look at the context of the verses- I would correct myself and say that he was there Weds or Thurs since further down the text says it was two days till Pesach. The reason I immediately thought of that verse is because most of the time Yeshua was outside teaching the people- not in the temple except for the commanded times of gathering. In this case he was there as they were getting close to Pesach.

But it is not a stretch that money would have been handled on Shabbat. Remember that tithe belongs to the Lord- it would not have been a burden to handle the money that belongs to the Lord- it is a debt you owe. That said- it is likely most tithe and offerning was given before or after Shabbat- but I do not see where it was specifically banned. Particulary during the Holy Days- the scriptures commands those who live far away to convert their tithe to money and bring it to the temple.

And if things could be purchased on Shabbat why does scripture say that the women waited to get the spices to annoint Yeshua's body until after Shabbat was over? Certainly preparing the body of their master for burial was of utmost importance, but yet they waited.

The preparation of the body is different. It does not pertain to things of life- remember what Yeshua said to the man who said he must leave to bury his father? He said let the dead bury the dead- prepping the bodies does not take precedence over Shabbat- it does not concern life- in fact it is unclean. I do not see this issue having anything to do with not being able to purchase the needed spices.


But here is the kicker - things couldn't be purchased on Shabbat - because that would involve selling. So no markets were NOT open. I know its a difficult concept for us to understand we are so used to stores being open 24/7. I grew up in a town where everything closed up on Shabbat. It was a wonderful peaceful time, and the merchants were in services on Shabbat like everyone else.

I understand what you are driving at- but some allowances had to be made. Think about the few million Jews that come to the Temple during the holy days- they have to be able to eat while they are there. They don't have a home to go to with ready made food or a fridge to hold food till Shabbat. I also know that in Jewish custom it is acceptable to cook on Shabbat if guests show up at your door. I believe Rashi delves into this area . There maybe be some different trains of thought on this- but it is out there.

I think of what Yeshua said about what you do unto the least of his people- you do unto him. The Jewish culture revolves around hospitiality and preservation of life- both of which come from the bible. Yeshua healed on Shabbat and ordered a man to carry his bed- not in defiance of Torah, but to tear down the rabbincs.

There is a reason for the preparation day (friday) it was a day to get ready for Shabbat. But we seem to have lost the idea of preparing ahead of time - we forget to gather the double portion on the 6th day so that we will be ready for the 7th. As my mother used to say when I would forget something that I needed for school - a failure to plan on your part , does not constitute and emergency on my part. Suffering the natural consequences of failing to plan, ( for example missing a meal or two) is a great motivator for remembering things ahead of time.

I don't disagree with preparing ahead of time, but when it comes to cooking food- there is only so much you can do ahead of time- assuming you like to eat fresh food at your Shabbat table. We live in a godless world- God understands each of our situations- particularly now in these days...

There was a time that my wife worked and I worked. So there was the mad dash to clean house Thursday night. Then the mad dash home from work to have a full Shabbat dinner ready to go in one hour, while getting cleaned up, kids bathed, candles lit, etc. before guests arrive and 6PM rolls around. :swoon::help:

Anyways- we may not see eye to eye on this. I study under a Levite from Israel who has lived the culture that most of us have not lived and don't understand here in the States. What my rabbi has actually lived in Israel and has told me about varies from what I hear from rabbis who never lived in Israel. :scratch:

Shalom :wave:

[Torah]

Any ideas of when and why??
Catholic Encyclopedia (http://store.newadventcd.com/caencd.html)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

"The fathers conducted the worship. The chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called "Pater Patrum" or Pater Patratus."

“Sunday was kept holy in honor of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday,”

"Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity"

Similarity: RELATION TO CHRISTIANITY
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

I personally see more similarities with Mithra, than I do with Judaism.

You decide why Sunday replaced Saturday
the [7th day] Sabbath.

[firestar]

So now I'm confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the Sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown... or do both days of observance have their own unique purpose... ie: Saturday to rest and reflect on God's goodness etc.. and Sunday to worship and rejoice in that goodness??

G-d spoke very clearly that Sabbath was on the 7th day of the week. From the very beginning of time he established this. You say your “CONFUSED” G-d is the G-d of order, not confusion.
You decide witch day is G-ds Sabbath?. I would have to say that most if not all here are not confused about witch day is G-ds Shabbat. By the way, Shabbat Shalom.

Hmmm... not sure if this was meant as a rebuke? But even if it is, I will take it in the spirit that I think was intended (and I'm editting this to say that being rebuked can be a very good and healthy thing and not something to ignore if it's meant for Godly instruction which is what I meant when I said the above- I didn't want it to seem snarky and realized that it could).

But maybe I wasn't clear in my meaning. From reading the five threads posted, there seemed to be different information that I was getting. IE: some "evidence" points to the whole sun god worship, while another article espoused the "biblical evidence for Sunday worship" standpoint. I'm not trying to change anything, and I wholeheartedly believe that God doesn't change so I'm seeking information to help everything gel in my mind. It's not the inerrancy of God and His Word that I'm questioning- it's my limited understanding :wave:

And Shabbat Shalom to you too (even though it's passed now). I was working Friday night, serving the Shabbat meal to my residents, helping them cut their challah, listening to them say their prayers etc... On the one hand it's too bad I have to work (every other Friday), but on the other hand it's always a lovely experience.

[firestar]

The "evidence" in scriptures needs to be read in context. Paul instructs them to set aside money on the first day of the week (before spending it on something else) for when he comes - there is no mention of it being collected weekly. Plus an observant believer (remember they were all zealous for the Torah) wouldn't have handled money on the Sabbath (no buying or selling, so no need to have it).

The first day of the week starts at sundown after the Sabbath is over. So when Paul preached until midnight BECAUSE he was leaving in the morning.... it was obviously a special meeting becuase he was leaving. The other times that it mentions the believers being together it was in the evening (Saturday night) and they weren't holding religious services they were hiding.

There is nothing in scrpiture that says that the day of worship appointed by the Most High has ever been changed or ever will be changed. (Isaiah 66:23)


This is a really thought provoking analysis. Thank you!

[firestar]

When did sunday replace sabbath? The main argument used for the change of the "Lord's day" is the idea that when Yeshua was raised from the dead, it was a Sunday. So now Sundays are the day of worship negating the original Shabbat.

Unfortunately this is simply not true on both counts. The fact that 1. God doesn't negate himself and;
2. Yeshua was raised on a Shabbat, not a Sunday.

With those things in mind it kinda blows the apologetics of the day change out of the water.

If you would like to read more on the day Yeshua died and was resurrected here is a link:http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/whenres.htm

Keep in mind when you read this, that a Jewish day starts at sunset when three stars can be seen. So when the women went to Yeshua's tomb first thing on the first day so it would have been getting dark and stars would have been out on what we would consider a Saturday night and by the tiime they got there, he'd been raised and gone.

Catholic Encyclopedia (http://store.newadventcd.com/caencd.html)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

"The fathers conducted the worship. The chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called "Pater Patrum" or Pater Patratus."

“Sunday was kept holy in honor of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday,”

"Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity"

Similarity: RELATION TO CHRISTIANITY
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)

I personally see more similarities with Mithra, than I do with Judaism.

You decide why Sunday replaced Saturday
the [7th day] Sabbath.

Very helpful resources, thank you both!

[Torah]

Hmmm... not sure if this was meant as a rebuke? But even if it is, I will take it in the spirit that I think was intended (and I'm editting this to say that being rebuked can be a very good and healthy thing and not something to ignore if it's meant for Godly instruction which is what I meant when I said the above- I didn't want it to seem snarky and realized that it could).

But maybe I wasn't clear in my meaning. From reading the five threads posted, there seemed to be different information that I was getting. IE: some "evidence" points to the whole sun god worship, while another article espoused the "biblical evidence for Sunday worship" standpoint. I'm not trying to change anything, and I wholeheartedly believe that God doesn't change so I'm seeking information to help everything gel in my mind. It's not the inerrancy of God and His Word that I'm questioning- it's my limited understanding :wave:

And Shabbat Shalom to you too (even though it's passed now). I was working Friday night, serving the Shabbat meal to my residents, helping them cut their challah, listening to them say their prayers etc... On the one hand it's too bad I have to work (every other Friday), but on the other hand it's always a lovely experience.
Hmmm... not sure if this was meant as a rebuke? But even if it is, I will take it in the spirit that I think was intended (and I'm editting this to say that being rebuked can be a very good and healthy thing and not something to ignore if it's meant for Godly instruction which is what I meant when I said the above- I didn't want it to seem snarky and realized that it could).

It was not at all meant as a rebuke. You said that you were confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the Sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown...
I was just trying to explain to you know that confusion does not come from G-d, therefore if you have confusion about Sabbath being from Friday night to Saturday night. Rests assure that this is G-ds Sabbath. But each of us must come to this conclusion ourselves. I am very sorry that I come across the way you think I did.

But maybe I wasn't clear in my meaning. From reading the five threads posted, there seemed to be different information that I was getting. IE: some "evidence" points to the whole sun god worship, while another article espoused the "biblical evidence for Sunday worship" standpoint. I'm not trying to change anything, and I wholeheartedly believe that God doesn't change so I'm seeking information to help everything gel in my mind. It's not the inerrancy of God and His Word that I'm questioning- it's my limited understanding

Events do not change what G-d Said is to be. It is argued, that the event of Yeshua rising from the dead on the first day of the week [along with other events] means that G-d’s spoken word of when his Sabbath is. Is no longer valid as the Sabbath. This is just not so! As you correctly said; “I wholeheartedly believe that God doesn't change”.

And Shabbat Shalom to you too (even though it's passed now). I was working Friday night, serving the Shabbat meal to my residents, helping them cut their challah, listening to them say their prayers etc... On the one hand it's too bad I have to work (every other Friday), but on the other hand it's always a lovely experience.
Pleas forgive me for my gruff way of coming across.
Shalom.

[firestar]

Hmmm... not sure if this was meant as a rebuke? But even if it is, I will take it in the spirit that I think was intended (and I'm editting this to say that being rebuked can be a very good and healthy thing and not something to ignore if it's meant for Godly instruction which is what I meant when I said the above- I didn't want it to seem snarky and realized that it could).

It was not at all meant as a rebuke. You said that you were confused... should we or shouldn't we be keeping the Sabbath strictly to Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown...
I was just trying to explain to you know that confusion does not come from G-d, therefore if you have confusion about Sabbath being from Friday night to Saturday night. Rests assure that this is G-ds Sabbath. But each of us must come to this conclusion ourselves. I am very sorry that I come across the way you think I did.

But maybe I wasn't clear in my meaning. From reading the five threads posted, there seemed to be different information that I was getting. IE: some "evidence" points to the whole sun god worship, while another article espoused the "biblical evidence for Sunday worship" standpoint. I'm not trying to change anything, and I wholeheartedly believe that God doesn't change so I'm seeking information to help everything gel in my mind. It's not the inerrancy of God and His Word that I'm questioning- it's my limited understanding

Events do not change what G-d Said is to be. It is argued, that the event of Yeshua rising from the dead on the first day of the week [along with other events] means that G-d’s spoken word of when his Sabbath is. Is no longer valid as the Sabbath. This is just not so! As you correctly said; “I wholeheartedly believe that God doesn't change”.

And Shabbat Shalom to you too (even though it's passed now). I was working Friday night, serving the Shabbat meal to my residents, helping them cut their challah, listening to them say their prayers etc... On the one hand it's too bad I have to work (every other Friday), but on the other hand it's always a lovely experience.
Pleas forgive me for my gruff way of coming across.
Shalom.

I didn't take offense! Please don't think that. Like I said, Godly instruction is healthy and necessary even if it comes across as a rebuke. Too often we close our ears to the truth if it's not candy coated and pleasant to hear. I just wanted you to have a better understanding of what I meant... I do a lot of lurking here, and it seems that you have a mix of guests that post because they are seeking answers because they want to grow in God (like me) and the other half of guests posting here are here to bait Messianic Jews and want to belittle the beliefs (not my intention). That was all I was wanting to make clear- just in case it sounded as though my question was for baiting.

Thanks for your insight, I enjoy your posts (both here and in other threads). I really enjoyed your post about Christmas in the Marriage Ministry forum (I remember you left the discussion because people didn't want to "hear" where you were coming from and there was overwhelming backlash to your unpopular opinion.) But your post did strike a chord with me. This is the first year I haven't decorated my home for Christmas, after really feeling convicted about not worshipping God "as the other nations worship their gods". I had been waffling back and forth (should I, shouldn't I). Trying to justify decorating (my mom gave this to me, it would be a waste not to use it and it's sooo pretty). But after reading your post, it really confirmed to me that this is not something that honours God so I didn't.

So again- no need to apologize!!! :wave:

[Torah]

G-d’s reckoning of time
The first thing we learned was that G-d’s reckoning of time was not the same as the Greek reckoning of time.
G-d states in Gen 1: 5, 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, & 1:31
[“There was evening, and there was morning--the first day.”] The day starts at evening goes through the day and ends at evening. This is G-ds reckoning of time.
Without G-ds understanding of time we misunderstand what is being said.

Acts 20: 7 – 11 is used to prove G-d changed his Sabbath to Sunday.

7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.
10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!"
11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left.

It is taught that Paul started preaching Sunday morning took a lunch break, Went back to preaching Sunday night and preached till midnight and then left on his trip Monday morning.

With the proper understanding of G-d’s reckoning of time (day is from evening to morning then evening.) the first day [Sunday] of the week starts at sundown Saturday night. Acts 20: 7 – 11 could read this way:

7 On the first day of the week [Saturday night] we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. [Saturday midnight]
8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.
10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!"
11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight,[Sunday morning] he left.

[visionary]

Socrates Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do thisSocrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, book 5, chap. 22, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (NPNF) Second Series, Vol. II, p. 132.

The first clear evidence for weekly Sunday observance by Christians comes in the second century from two places--Alexandria and Rome. About A.D. 130 Barnabas of Alexandria, in a highly allegorical discourse, refers to the seventh-day Sabbath as representing the seventh millennium of earth's history. He goes on to say that the present sabbaths were unacceptable to God, who would make "a beginning of the eighth day [Sunday], that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead."The Epistle of Barnabus, chap. 15, in ANF, Vol. I, pp. 146, 147

About A.D. 150, Justin Martyr in Rome provides a more clear and direct reference to Sunday observance, actually describing briefly in his Apology the worship service held on Sunday: "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things." Apology I, chap. 67, in ANF, Vol. I, p. 186

[Ahava]

Check out biblelight dot net slash Sylvester-I dot htm.

Do not put the www part of a normal address. After th :// go straight into biblelight dot net.

This is not my sight but ont that I have come to respect.

Since I am a newbie it will not let me post the actual link so the dot means "." and so forth. Enjoy.

[visionary]

http://biblelight.net/Sylvester-I.htm

[Ahava]

Firestar, Torah, and Visionary.
In Exodus Moses spoke to G-d face to face.
Malichi - G-d doesn't change.
James - Jesus said no one has seen the face of the father and lived.
If no one has seen the face of the Father and lived, it had to be Jesus that Moses was talking to (IMO) when he received the 10 commandments as well as the rest of the 613..
In Luke, Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. He did not say part or pick the ones you like.

Well now you know why we should keep the Sabbath - at least in my opinion.

We also have to realize we live in a pagan world and sometimes get stuck working on Shabbat.

If you have to work on Shabbat to keep a job then you have to do what you have to do. But if you get the chance, you keep Shabbat.

It appears worship was changed to Sunday by Pope Sylvester I, who was Pope from 314 to about 325.

Note the change was done by man - not by G-d.

Well, that is my opinion, of course being female I have an obligation to reserve the right to change my opinion at will (it is the woman thing) and am subject to changing it often.

Comments and opinions welcome.

[visionary]

Yes, I beleive every encounter with God throughout the Bible was with Yeshua. I believe that we all should read and see it when we study the Word. God has not changed just our perspective of Him. May it be the right one.