Are pre-, mid-, or post-trib? [Archive]

charlesj

13th February 2002, 08:10 AM

I will say "none of the above." Is the Bible speaking of the "time of the end," or is it speaking of the "end of time?"
Most of the time you read of the "last days," "last hour," etc. you are reading of something written to the first century Christian (an ex-Jew) and it is speaking of the end of the Jewish economy (70A.D.) If you will study the context and who it is written to you also will see this.
There is not enough room to write here to develope my thoughts, but if you will email me, then I will send you more information on the time of the end. My email address is cjemeyson@satx.rr.com.

All the books of the New Testament were written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. If you look at The Book of Revelation, you will see a book that begins and ends with "This MUST take place shortly..."(Rev 1:1 & 22:6) and "...the time is at hand..."(Rev 1:3 & 22:10). As a matter of fact, John is told not "to seal the words of this book up for the time is at hand."
Yet Daniel is given a vision and was told to seal the words up for "the time is many days." Daniel's vision was fulfilled less than
500 years, but the Revelation was to take place SHORTLY.

Write me.
your servant in Messiah,
charlesj

BuzzBeer

16th February 2002, 04:07 PM

I would vote, I just have no clue on what you people are talking about :confused:

MizDoulos

16th February 2002, 09:02 PM

Am Pre-Trib.

I hope and pray Jesus is coming soon. I do not want to be here during the Great Tribulation period! Ouch!!!

berol06

17th February 2002, 12:23 AM

Post-Trib
I believe the bible shows post-trib but I certainly hope I am wrong if tribulation is in my lifetime.

If it is and you have to go through tribulation, how many are ready?

oncewaslost

17th February 2002, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by rideoflife
i'm a pan-trib, because i figure it will all pan out the way God wants it to.

i'd have to agree

SenseiPiccolo

17th February 2002, 07:50 PM

Bible says the dead i nChrist will rise first,
then the living will met Him in the air...
:D

Snor Snor

18th February 2002, 12:22 AM

Wow. Tons of pre-tribs!

Anyway, I'm a post-trib. After some prayer and study, I've found it to be that, but this isn't the place to debate, so, well, you know! :D

God bless ya :)

Jany

22nd February 2002, 10:47 PM

I am happy to see so many pre-tribbers :) <><

recoveringcatholic

26th February 2002, 03:54 PM

. . . and RaptureReady.

dinkime

26th February 2002, 11:58 PM

God will do what HE wants, when HE wants. what i think about it will make no difference at all with HIM. all i have to do is believe!

renee67

23rd April 2002, 01:11 PM

The rapture is the only way to fly!

Karen

23rd April 2002, 05:00 PM

Jesus said He was coming after the tribulation of those days.

Paul said we'd be caught up at His coming - which we know is after the tribulation of those days...so, that makes me posttrib.

In fact, Jesus' own words are "post tribulationem!"

Have a blessed day!
Karen :pink:

Othniel

30th May 2002, 05:24 PM

Karen, that quote sums up everything that has vexed me for the past year. Amen. James 1:22-25

As to topic: Pre-tribbulation (dispensational) theology ignores the amazing historical coincidences of the fall of Jerusalem and the book of Revelation, does not take context as "literally" as it claims to.

When verses are quoted they're usually taken out of context, but now is not the place to argue that in depth.

I suggest a book called "End Days Madness" available at your local Christian bookseller for anyone wanting an honest evaluation Christ's Olivette discourse.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

filosofer

30th May 2002, 06:31 PM

Caveat answer -

I am amillennialist regarding the end times.

Caveat 1: With regard to the rapture, amillennialism accepts the rapture,

Caveat 2: The rapture takes place at the end of time, when Jesus returns (Gospels mention only once parousia [coming])

Caveat 3: In terms of this poll, the relationship between amillennialism and post-tribulation rapture is similar.

Caveat 4: Wait until we are caught up and be surprised!

RayNay714

5th June 2002, 09:16 AM

I don't know but I DO care. I just feel that we will never know and that things like this are what tear the kingdom of God apart. I believe only God knows these things...we will never know.

Until All Have Heard,
RayNay

Martin

8th June 2002, 07:07 AM

I dont' know...becuase I don't think the Bible is clear on the issue....that's why there is so much debate. Your position could well be the right one

Gerry

16th June 2002, 11:43 AM

Bible teaches PRE, so I go along with what God says!

debs

16th June 2002, 10:03 PM

Im pre-trib. Mostly because of I noted that God moves his people out before judgement falls (Lot, Noah, Moses)(although Im not a bible scholar)

Lizzi4Christ

17th June 2002, 10:33 PM

Pre-Trib. The Tribulation is told as a time of God's Wrath and judgement. Why would He pour out His wrath and judgement on His children? We've accepted Him and placed our trust in Him. Just my thoughts :)

Patmosman_sga

18th June 2002, 05:30 PM

Not a day goes by that I don't have to endure some form of "tribulation," so I find even the suggestion that Christians will "escape the tribulation" to be absurd on its face. Try selling that "pre-trib" stuff to Christians in the Sudan and see how many blank stares you'll get.

Likewise, however, not a day goes by that I don't experience, in one degree or another, being "caught up" into a very real experience of the presence of Christ, so I find even the suggestion that his coming again is not imminent to be equally absurd. To live as a Christian in the midst of this crooked and perverse generation is to live in a constant state of being "caught up" in the mysterious reality that is Christ crucified and risen, showing forth his presence through word and deed, being ready for his appearing at any moment while, at the same time, being fully prepared for a long and often painful journey to the Promised Land.

Religious Crisis

14th July 2002, 03:33 PM

I think that God will take his chosen people before the tribulation so that they do not have to suffer through all of the trumpets, seals, and such.

mistertee49

29th July 2002, 09:26 PM

As long as my heart is sin free, it really doesn't matter. The only thing that does is spending eternity with my Heavenly Father. ;)

ladylove

11th August 2002, 08:14 PM

Hey, my cataogory is not on here, I protest. :)

I am pre-wrath...

lisa03wilson

11th August 2002, 08:45 PM

I don't know, but I do care (that choice seems a little mean ;) ) anyway, I tend to go post trib, but I have heard good arguments for mid trib (or something similar to mid trib, I don't know what an official mid trib person believes) anyway, I do know that I don't believe it will be pre trib.

A.Lynn

21st August 2002, 12:35 PM

 :angel: I'm hoping for Pre Trib, but hey! I'm ready whenever He wants me! :cool:

livingforJesus-Shaun

30th September 2002, 07:46 PM

Pre-tribulation!!!

Patty

11th October 2002, 10:57 PM

Hey Erwin,

I truly hope that you read this!!!

Erwin, this earth cannot stand much more abuse. You, living in Australia, are unable to avoid learning of the destruction occurring in your country. It has been besieged by destruction of the natural habitats of many creatures and the aboriginal men. Your country, and many, many others around the world, are progressively and steadily being destroyed for the 'almighty' money. Are the lives that God gave to so many, many animals worth so very little that they can simply be wiped out by men - for money in their pockets? This cannot possibly make God happy. Consider the plight of your own country - and others that you know of as you read the following:

According to Webster's Unabridged Encyclopedic Dictionary:

Tribulation: Grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering. An instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

Rapture: The carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.
(A raptor is a bird of prey that carries its prey away in its talons)

The tribulation is already besetting the world. The suffering that men are experiencing - and perpetrating - is intolerable to many, many people. The tribulation is occurring now.

The rapture mentioned in Scriptures will occur when the Holy Father takes us all out of this earth and takes us to task for our wrongdoings.

The rapture will occur post-tribulation.

Patty

cenimo

13th October 2002, 05:23 PM

Since the church disappears for awhile in Revelation, what else could it be but pre-trib?

just my $.02

A Sheep

11th November 2002, 07:02 AM

Pre-tribulation :).

cenimo

11th November 2002, 07:07 AM

Pre-trib. 1 Thess 4 :13-18. What else can you be?

Also, in Revelation, the church disappears in the early chapters and doesn't come back for awhile.

unitedistand

22nd November 2002, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by KenOGar24
I'm none of those - I'm a Christian.
But I do believe the Bible presents sufficient evidence that believers will be "Caught up" before God's judgement on the Earth ("Pre-Trib" to sum up)

pre-great-tribulation here.... same w/ KenOGar24 here...

we will have to face the tribulation of man... those who don't recieve the mark of the beast will be executed/torchered then killed. <---that's what we will have to face from what I've read. but CHRISTIANS, THOSE WHO HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST WILL NOT HAVE TO FACE THE WRATH OF YAHWEH ALMIGHTY

l33tace

26th November 2002, 07:54 AM

I've studdied the three views in depth and cant escape the pre-trip view for many reasons.

dmfew6599

30th December 2002, 12:25 PM

I can't say that I don't care. I know I will be with Jesus. I hope I do not have to live through was is prophesized in Revelation

postrib

6th January 2003, 01:10 AM

...in Revelation, the church disappears in the early chapters and doesn't come back for awhile... Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Jephunneh

6th January 2003, 06:04 PM

If you would study Rev. you would see that the Church (body of Christ) is gone after chapter 4:1, = the "rapture", which could happen anytime now.

Revelation 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matthew 24:44

DeputyDan

7th January 2003, 02:55 PM

Of the rapture points of view, pre-trib makes the most sense.

I definitely don't believe in mid-trib.

postrib

10th January 2003, 12:35 AM

...(body of Christ) is gone after chapter 4:1...
Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5).

...the "rapture", which could happen anytime now...
I don't believe that the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

...Come up hither...
Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

..."Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matthew 24:44...
Note that Jesus is referring to when "the Son of man cometh," and he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:44. I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.

Brain Damage

10th January 2003, 03:36 AM

1 Corinthians 15
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Matthew 24
30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms[1] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

I believe we await the last or seventh trumpet .

The Coming of the Son of Man
(4) 29 "Immediately "AFTER THE TRIBULATION" of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I'm post trib...all the way .

auswiq

30th January 2003, 06:51 AM

am I pre or post - hmmm I reckon the whole caper is pre - post - terous :)
God knows what He's about and when He does come back - happy are we if He finds us about His business.

Ryder

30th January 2003, 01:08 PM

Post is my thought. Hey, If you're expecting post and get pre then bonus! Can't be dissapointed expecting post.

his-girl

30th January 2003, 06:41 PM

Pre-trib here! Looking up!

FaithtoFaith

10th February 2003, 05:27 PM

:confused:

linda4jesus

12th February 2003, 10:08 PM

Pre-trib

FaithtoFaith

13th February 2003, 02:04 PM

My first reply didn't come through. I hope that we are pre-tribulation, but I can't help but get the feeling that we will be here for part or all of the tribulation. There's a whole lot of scriptures that talk about enduring to the end and so on, we've not really had to endure anything but regular ole life at this point. Most of us have not had to deal with anything near like Paul and the disciples had to endure so why should we be any different?

Although, I am curious and hoping like most of us that we won't have to go through it.

Glenn316

15th February 2003, 08:12 AM

I'm pre trib, but the best comment I've heard about the topic was by J Vernon McGee. When asked his position, he answered, "I'm Pan Millenial, everything will pan out in the end."

healthwoman

15th February 2003, 06:02 PM

Post-trib I guess. I don't believe in the rapture. I think it's one of satan's greatest deceptions.

WorshipTheLamb

23rd March 2003, 01:37 AM

Pre-tribulation

MetalBlade

23rd March 2003, 05:05 PM

I say pre, but then again, we will never know until it happens!

tulc

24th March 2003, 12:52 AM

Pan. Who am I to argue with J.Vernon?
tulc

Doreen

24th March 2003, 03:27 AM

pre-trib all the way for me!!!!!

Francie

25th March 2003, 02:57 PM

I am a pre-tribber, but whenever God chooses :hug: with me!

RaptureTicketHolder

1st July 2003, 12:55 AM

There is something called PAN that should be added to your choices.

I did not vote, because it was not listed.

Its quite simple really. As I see things, this pre, mid and post is just a ploy for Satan to cause struggle and problems umong Christians.

There is nothing quite as nice as casting your cares onto the Lord, and in His own words we are not to know the time .....

For I believe:

It will all pan out in the end!

357magnum

1st July 2003, 11:39 PM

This is a question of considerable controversy, but I believe the Bible is clear that the Church will be Raptured before the Tribulation Period.

In Christ.

Rick Otto

2nd July 2003, 11:55 AM

I don't believe in this pre,mid, OR post.
The Historicist.com has some good links (& a couple not-so good)to articles re: this relatively new teaching called "The Rapture."

undergrace

2nd July 2003, 03:08 PM

Pre-trib

Dawn Marie

10th July 2003, 09:52 PM

I don't believe there will be a 'rapture'. :)

Konnie

14th July 2003, 03:48 PM

Pre-tribulation

Poiema

14th July 2003, 04:31 PM

POST Trib. Pre or postwhatever ... but how odd to readthat some say there will not be a rapture. The BIBLE says there will be. How can you reconcile the two?

p.s. No, the term "rapture" does not appear in the Scriptures. But then, neither does "Trinity." Doctrinal teachings like the rapture and the Trinity come from verses that are irrefutable, we just give a name to what we read so we know what we are talking about.

BarbB

6th August 2003, 02:26 PM

I voted "pre" because that's what I hope - but whatever, come Lord Jesus, come!

Inspired

16th August 2003, 11:15 AM

Let's vote!

I was going to choose don't know, but it also implies that I don't care, and that's not true either, so E. None of the above.

Maximus

16th August 2003, 11:17 AM

Since I am an Amillenialist, I voted post-trib.

After all, Jesus did say that He will raise up ALL those who believe in Him on the LAST Day (see John 6:39-40, 44, 54). He never said He would raise up some in a pre-trib Rapture that occurs 1,007 years before the Last Day ( 7-year Tribulation + 1,000-year earthly millenium = 1,007 years).

silent_angel

16th August 2003, 06:32 PM

i really coun't tell ya. don't reeally care b.c things come when they come.

MAC

21st August 2003, 12:02 AM

mine is not there, I am more tours a-mill at this point.

May be the Lord will show me diffrent later.

Snowy

21st August 2003, 09:15 AM

I'm confused..what are you asking?..please explain more

MAC

21st August 2003, 11:26 AM

I'm confused..what are you asking?..please explain more

Is this question for me?

Snowy

21st August 2003, 12:28 PM

Is this question for me?

its for anyone who can explain to me what pre-, mid-, or post-trib means

GlowingFirefly

21st August 2003, 01:09 PM

Yes same here

MAC

21st August 2003, 10:10 PM

The term Postmillennialist identifies Christians who believe that the kingdom of God is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ (similar to historic Amillennialism). The word Millennium is from two Latin words. "mille," meaning thousand, and "annum" meaning years. Postmillennialists believe that the world will eventually become Christianized and that the Millennium is a long period of righteousness and peace on earth. The word post means after. Thus Post-millennialism speaks of the return of Christ after this 1000 years of righteousness and peace commonly called the millennium. These Christians have a strong view of the Church's calling to carry out and exercise Christ's power and authority in the World, and in their view, Jesus Christ has given all the needed power to His servants to make sure God's will is done. They lean upon scriptures such as,

Daniel 2:44

* And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the Kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break to pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."

Postmillennialists put the rights, authority, and power of the risen Christ in Believers so high that they see them instituting a great revival and have an overly optimistic outlook for "this world." Likewise, they believe other Christians are entirely too pessimistic about history and the future. They delight in pointing to the spreading of the gospel throughout the world and the adoption of some biblical principles in law and governments as examples that the kingdom of God is being greatly advanced.

They generally believe that a millennial "Golden Age" will come to this world before the return of Christ to usher in eternity. The weakness in this position is that it completely overlooks the persistence of human sin, moral decay, and prophesied loss of faith (including that found within the Church). We live in a period when the Church has never been more unfaithful and rebellious and the world has never been more sinful or lawless and at enmity with the truth of God's Word. Yet Postmillennial doctrine seem to be oblivious to this. Moreover, there is really no Biblical validation of this idea of a triumphant Church Christianizing "the world" in the scriptures (other than it triumphing seeking the remnant in Christ). There is no mention in scripture of an age of Church rulership over the nations (other than as the Church reigns now). This view tends to overlook much of what is contradictory to it's position.

MAC

21st August 2003, 10:12 PM

The term Amillennialist identifies Christians who believe that the thousand year reign spoken of in Revelation chapter 20, is the reign of Christ's Kingdom which He instituted by His death and Resurrection. The word Millennium is from the Latin words "mille," meaning thousand, and "annum," meaning years. The article "a" in latin is a negation of the following word, thus a-millennial literally means "no Millennium," or no thousand years. However, it's actually a misnomer as far as what Amillennialist really believe, because they in fact do believe in the Millennial (1000 years) reign of Christ of scripture, but they believe that it is not to be understood as a literal earthly or worldly reign of Christ, but as a Kingdom not situated on earth, but from above. They hold that that the kingdom of God is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and that Christians are reigning in this spiritual kingdom right now.

"The kingdom of God cometh not by observation" -Luke 17:20.

Amillennialists generally do not believe in a special future Salvation plan for Israel, but rather that Israel is Saved the same as any other nation. By the promises to the seed, Christ. Their doctrine is not that the people of Israel have been cast off, but that the Gentiles have been included among the Jews in God's Covenantal promises. They do not believe that Christ will have an future earth bound kingdom, they believe that Christ already has established His everlasting kingdom (Colossians 1:13) and that He is ruling in that kingdom now. This doctrine relies upon scripture which declares His Kingdom has come, and reject that any earthly reign can be a everlasting reign as required by prophecy.

Amillennialists believe that Christ's kingdom is not of this earth, but of a far superior principality. A Kingdom from above, and not below.

Colossians 3:1

* "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek these things which are from above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

* set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

Though detractors make claims to the contrary, Amillennialist indeed take Old Testament and New Testament scriptures literally and figuratively, depending upon warrant and context. But their argument is that the law is being fulfilled literally in Christ, not in an Old Testament or earthly/worldly fashion. i.e., the prophesy of the coming of Elijah was fulfilled literally in John the Baptist, and the Temple rebuilding is not of an earthly one in the middle east but is being rebuilt in the Church, with Christ being the Chief corner stone of that Temple building.

Amillennialists claim to support their doctrines with solid scripture, as opposed to using "interpretations of" scripture, so prevalent in other millennial positions. Amillennialism was predominantly the historical Reformation Church Eschatological position.

MAC

21st August 2003, 10:14 PM

The term Premillennialist identifies Christians who believe that the thousand year reign spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 is an earthly reign of Christ. The word Millennium is from two Latin words. "mille," meaning thousand, and "annum" meaning years. The word pre means before. Premillennial literally means before millennial, or before the thousand years.

Thus, Premillennialism is the belief that Christ returns bodily pre or before the thousand years to rule in an worldly kingdom on earth from the middle east. Generally, Premillennialists believe in two separate and unequal Salvation programs. One for Israel, and one for everyone else (Gentiles). They hold that a redeemed nation of Israel will be the center of government and the spreading of the gospel to the nations of the world. They point to scriptures such as,

Zechariah 14:16-17

* And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

* And it shall be that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Premillennialists believe that at the end of this reign of Christ on earth, an imprisoned Satan will be loosed to lead a worldwide rebellion before the victory by Christ and His Saints. The weakness in this position is that it undermines the work of the Church, Jews who are Saved prior to this period, the "One" Olive tree, and scriptures which say that both the Rapture and the judgment are both occur on the last day and at the last trumpet.

There are many variations of this doctrine, such as pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation rapturists. There are also the Chiliasts or so called Historical Premillennialists, and Dispensational Premillennialists who place the rapture not at the second coming but at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation.

There is a general consensus among premillennialists, that they are those who take scripture literally, while the others' tend to spiritualize. This is a misnomer also, as the only real difference is in "where" they spiritualize.

The use of the scriptures in the old testament that speak of literal kings and earthly reigns are used in support of this view that Christ will also reign as a literal earthly king from a literal jerusalem.

Some forms of Premillennialists make a distinction between the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of heaven. The primary difference between Amillennialists and Premillennialists is that Premillennialists believe the Reign of Christ is earthly, while Amillennialists believe Christ is reigning now from above.

MAC

21st August 2003, 10:14 PM

I hope that will help you...

EnterHisgateswithpraise

21st September 2003, 02:29 PM

He promised.Even the last day! :clap:

oddchild

23rd September 2003, 10:28 PM

Israel is a nation! Not illrelevent just something random to add...

Kathy

25th September 2003, 01:27 AM

Im also pre-trib :prayer:

Blondewyn

30th September 2003, 10:59 PM

There's no proof for any of the beliefs because (heh heh) they haven't happened yet, so in a way, it can be a waste of time quarreling over it.
Unfortunately, the way that many Christians view the end-times flavors the way that they view the present.
As long as we all know and understand that ultimately we have two purposes here on earth: to get to know and love Christ and to know and love others like Christ. As long as we keep that in perspective, let's talk about it!!!!

It's an awesome discussion- and lets our fantasically creative minds envision what the glory of the Lord will be like...
can't wait and can't wait to see the rest of you there, too!

Durelen

1st October 2003, 06:01 PM

Pre-trib rapture. BTW we have very very little time left here for it is very apparent. Not naming times or dates but a few years max would be within my guess. They seem quite ready to cry for world leader now. Won’t take much at all. It’s not the end of the world of course. We will rule here for 1000 years after this is all over. cya there :D

Globexgirl

4th October 2003, 07:33 PM

I agree Durelen, and theres so many more reasons... Like there will be a lot more sexual sin and people getting drunk... Well many churches are made up of teens and rather old people, once those old people die... then all will be left are the teens and a few others. there are so many more people to into drugs and sex to consider religion. And also, a lot of people will refer to Christianity and add in Judaism and Hinduism as if they are all alike or something. I mean, we as Christians know how different the three religions are, but many people don't.......

burrow_owl

5th October 2003, 09:43 PM

oh - for some reason I read post-trib as post-eschatological and voted accordingly. d'oh!

A Taffer

6th October 2003, 04:37 PM

I believe in Pre-tribulation. :)

Globexgirl

7th October 2003, 07:35 PM

Hee.... I'm a saint!

Force

7th October 2003, 08:03 PM

pre.....and by the way...can't wait!!!:clap:

Matthew 24
44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Revelation 3
3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Be ready!!!!!!!

knee-v

16th October 2003, 07:02 PM

None of the above. I'm an orthodox preterist.

Deacon

16th October 2003, 07:12 PM

I am a Pre Tribulation Christian, which means I believe the Rapture will happen before the 7 Year Tribulation set up on earth in which the Anti Christ will reign, speaking of peace and harmony, while bringing, war, blasphemies of our Lord and God, and every bad thing you can think of that will happen.

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

That speaks of the Seals of God.

Well I guess I put my opinion in :).

God Bless!

ps139

16th October 2003, 07:23 PM

I don't want to get into a huge discussion about this, but I would just like to point out that the Rapture is an idea that was invented in the 1830s, based on a girl's retelling of a dream she had to her pastor, Rev. Darby. From there it was popularized until today when many believe it to be true. But I think if it was true someone would have understood it before 1830. Luther, Calvin and the other reformers did not believe in this idea.

alonenomore2

17th October 2003, 08:03 PM

Right on the money IMHO.
There is something final in the words,"at the trumpet".I don't know but I suspect it would be afterwards.

loveHIM_liveHIM

19th October 2003, 02:54 AM

You mean the world as a whole? We're ALL pre-trib, since the tribulation hasn't started yet...

But I suppose this site (and poll) may still be around after the rapture, so it would be applicable then...

Bayhawks83

20th October 2003, 07:22 PM

pre trib just happened to get popular. but you should be post trib. just think about it.

http://www.homestead.com/dclwolf/rapture.html

mesue

24th October 2003, 02:04 AM

[QUOTE=DeaconNCharge]I am a Pre Tribulation Christian, which means I believe the Rapture will happen before the 7 Year Tribulation

Me too.
When the trumpet sounds I'm outta' here!
What a fun ride up!

Snowy

18th November 2003, 11:16 PM

I really have no idea

James Pedro

20th November 2003, 06:48 PM

I would have to say that do to the total lack of the antichrist and that I am still here I think we are all pre-tribulation.

God Bless:bow:

snoopyloopysk8a

21st November 2003, 02:39 AM

None of the above!

The dead in Christ shall rise first. Then those that remain will be transformed. Our physical bodies will be restored as they were at first, in Eden; before the fall. We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. After this comes the judgement and then an eternity in heavenly places.

Am I the only one out there???:rolleyes:
Nope. I'm with you.

Miles Peterson

21st November 2003, 02:50 PM

Let's vote!The poll leaves out the other biblically orthodox choices, namely Amillennialism and Postmillennialism. Can you start a new one, perhaps one that asks Premil, Amil, or Postmil?

Miles Peterson

21st November 2003, 03:01 PM

None of the above. I'm an orthodox preterist.That's an oxymoron. Now if you'd said "orthodox partial preterist, that would be different.

NathanP

21st November 2003, 03:25 PM

Pan-trib

Micah777

22nd November 2003, 05:15 AM

"here, there, or in the air!" - Pre-Trib

Dad Ernie

28th November 2003, 03:40 PM

Greetings All,

In my studies, I have determined:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Thus I have found that it is also necessary to determine just what is the Gospel. I have concluded that each of the following 5 areas are CRITICAL to understanding the "Whole Gospel of Jesus Christ":

1) The Birth of Jesus Christ (the incarnation of the living God in human flesh)

2) The Life of Jesus Christ (the example set for us)

3) The Death of Jesus Christ (the sacrifical lamb that was placed on the altar of God on my behalf)

4) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ (without it there would be no hope)

5) The Return of Jesus Christ for His saints (Our Future Hope!)

Most people will include the first FOUR of these in their Gospel message, but leave out the last one, either because it is so controversial, or because of lack of self-study, or perhaps for some other reason.

Now in tackling the subject of the Return of Jesus Christ, we must understand that it is very important "to get it right" because of this:

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This is a sword that hangs over the head of the believer, especially in lieu of the following:

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

It has taken me many years to cast off the fables of men and listen solely to God. Fix the following in your mind:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Bless you all,

Dad Ernie

Gyurkovitz

30th November 2003, 08:18 PM

Miles, why let someone whe denies the resurrection (a cardinal Christian doctrine) and the creeds define my view?

I listed myself as post-tribulational since I believe it happened about 1930 years ago. Why is it so hard to believe that when Christ said "this generation" he meant just that? It very neatly wraps up these passages:

A speech that appears in both Matthew and Luke synoptics:

Matthew 23: 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, [6] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this gerneration.

Compare to "Babylon" in Revelation
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Following this of course Christ prophesies against the temple. Some have said that Christ is answering two questions, first when the temple would be destroyed and then when his second coming would be but this has a serious problem when trying to harmonize this passage with the same prophesy that is worded differently in Luke (including earth shaking events that Matthew links to the end of the world but Luke describes as being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem).

Judged by Pilate:

Matthew 27: 24 So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man's blood; [2] see to it yourselves.” 25 And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

As he is led toward the cross:

Luke 23: 28But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

Revelation 6: 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave [5] and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Big Mouth Nana

1st December 2003, 12:46 AM

Well, actually I'm not sure what you would call this. It's either post trib, or the same thing as the second coming. My reasoning for this is because the "saints" are mentioned as still here all the way up into Revelation. We ARE the saints :idea: .

East Anglican

2nd December 2003, 12:40 PM

I amso pleased the Don't know/Don't care option was there.
I honestly couldn't care less.

Breetai

3rd December 2003, 11:50 PM

sigh........
Why is there no amillennialism choice in this poll?
It's a very widely held eschatological doctrine in many churches in Christianity. More so then pre-trib. I wonder why so many people seen to think that the Bible *definetely* teaches a pre-trib view? It seems to be in the interpretation of scripture to me. I'm not saying that there WILL NOT be a literal 1000 years or rapture followed by a seven-year tribulation, I'm just saying that it is not the only view and that amillennialism should've been a choice. Amillennialism is not post-trib either, as some may think...

Gyurkovitz

4th December 2003, 03:52 AM

Breetai, that's a false dilemma.

My journey was from Dispensationalism, to Historic Premil, to Amillenialism, back to Historic Premil, back to Amil, to preterist Amil finally solidly to orthodox preterism and postmillenialism so I am generally familiar with most of the possible views.

Fact: the "Great Tribulation" is either a historical event or it is not (whether past or future history or present reality).

Fact: if the tribulation is a historical event there are a limited number of choices:

1.) The "rapture" is a misreading of scripture and the tribulation already happened.

2.) The rapture as popularly understood is a misreading of scripture that really describes the consummation and "tribulation" does not refer to a specific event, but rather characterizes the present age.

3.) The rapture will occur before the tribulation.

4.) The rapture will occur sometime during the tribulation (approximately the middle).

5.) The rapture will occur after the tribulation.

Although the poll obviously did not take either of our eschatological views into account a little imagination permits an answer. In your case as well as mine, "post-tribulation" is appropriate. In my case because I believe the worst is over, in your case because when Christ returns there will no longer be tribulation of any sort.

In Christ, Ryan

Breetai

4th December 2003, 04:33 AM

Thanks for all that Ryan. It's appreciated.

My stance on the events surrounding the parousia are not set in stone Some days I lean toward amillennialism, while other days pre-trib makes sence. (I disregard post-trib due to Matt 24:26-44, pre-trib seems to have a lot of loop-holes such as scripture having more than one fullfillment, so it avoids my disregardization). It seems to all be in the interpretation of scripture to me, although amillennialism seems to be the most sound (barely), schorarly speaking. I do not think that I will ever settle on one view.

I was a little peeved that there was not even an option for "other view" in the poll (as I'm sure you could tell).

I agree with you that "post-trib" is the closest option to amillennialism, but alas, it is not the same. sigh....

_______
I'm a fourth-year religion major and I've written around 80 pages on the subject of eschatology, including one paper on the War Scroll from Qumran (interesting stuff), so I like to think that I'm becoming somewhat familiar with this subject. It's funny....the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

---Wow, what an interesting subject!---

Dad Ernie

4th December 2003, 05:52 PM

Greetings All,

Please give the following your consideration:

Has the following occurred to you?

In reference to:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Can there be any doubt that these are they that have died DURING the tribulation?

Now consider this:

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Is there any other way to understand the Resurrection, than to acknowledge there are TWO resurrections? One for the JUST, and the other for the UNJUST. AND that these two are separated by 1,000 years?

Okay, if we agree on that, then we see that prior to the rapture, the FIRST Resurrection has to have occurred:

1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So the question to ask a pre-tribber is what happens to those in Rev 7? In which Resurrection do they go to be with the Lord? Can they answer anything else but "the first resurrection"? If they do, then how do they explain the pre-trib rapture view that it occurs BEFORE the FIRST RESURRECTION?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

4th December 2003, 07:37 PM

There ARE other was to interpret the period surrounding the resurrection(s). A popular one is that the 1,000 years are figurative and represent the Christian era. The "seven-year tribulation" is viewed as figuitive as well. This is usually known as amillennialism. Also in this view, the multitude that which came out of tribulation are people who have been pursecuted for proclaiming the gospel over the entire Christian era.

As far as I have studied in my short life, the only two sound views are amillennialism and pre-trib. Amillennialism holds more weight for me. I desregard post- and mid-tribulation view in light of, as I wrote earlier, Matthew 24.

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (Matt. 24:36)." If you hold on to the mid- or post-trib. view, then the day or hour can be calculated. As I see it, it is arrogant to think that you can know the day or the hour of the Son's return. Especially when the Son doesn't even know!

In the pre-trib view, the Son has already come (in the pre-trib rapture). While this seems like a loose interpretation of scriputure to me, it can be soundly argued.

Breetai

4th December 2003, 07:47 PM

By post-tribulation, I am defining it as a literal seven-year tribulation followed by the return of Christ.

As I understand Ryan's earlier definition of post-trib., it DOES NOT neccesarily constitute a literal seven-year tribulation. Under this definition, amillennialism falls under "post-tribulation". I hadn't thought of both definitions when I voted.

btw, thanks for the post Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie

4th December 2003, 08:11 PM

Greetings Breetal,

If one would be honest with God, they HAVE to take His Word "literally", as much as is possible. A good hermeneutic (proper study of the scriptures) always places the literal interpretation over the "spiritualized" meaning that might apply. The RESSURECTION is certain, it cannot be explained away if one is to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

4th December 2003, 08:52 PM

hehe

I didn't take the ressurection out, I would never do that. Just the events surrounding it. It just seems to me that their are many things in the bible where it appears unclear if they should be taken literally or figuratively.

Some things that are to be taken figuatively (such as dreams), have unclear meanings. An example is Nebuchandnezzar's dream in Danial 2, concering the statue representing different world powers. There is a long lasting debate as to whether or not one of the powers is Medo-Persia, or the Medes and the Persians seperately. One of my professers, a Harvard graduate in ancient mid-eastern religion (well into his 60s) concurs that the answer isn't certain.

If the meaning of Danial 2 is mean to be the Medes and the Persians seperately, then the Greek empire is the last empire---NOT the Romans. There is a lot of scholarly evidence to argue this. The little horn is Danial 7, under this interpretation, is reconized as Antiochus IV. Under the Medo-Persian theory, an entire different set of circumstances arrises.

Maybe there is a double meaning? Maybe Antiochus fullfilling the prophecy is a coincidence? Who knows.

What does a good hermeneutic do in this case? If these passages are taken one way, then other parts of the Bible should be interpreted in like manner. If some research is done concerning Antiochus IV fullfilling the prophacy in Danial, it leads to a very convincing argument.

Whew.....I need a break now!

btw....the Ressurection IS certain.

Dad Ernie

4th December 2003, 11:19 PM

Greetings Breetai,

If these passages are taken one way, then other parts of the Bible should be interpreted in like manner.

Most of the time, there is sufficient scripture to clearly delineate the intent and purpose of it. Many writers over many years without collaboration were given insight by the Holy Spirit to pass along to us the truth. I have pieced together several of the poignant verses pertinent to this thread to make a cohesive whole. If you don't believe it, then no more is to be said.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

II Paradox II

5th December 2003, 02:27 PM

Let's vote!
historical premill...

ken

~Wisdom Seeker~

6th December 2003, 01:20 AM

Breetai

6th December 2003, 03:01 PM

I finally bothered to read all the way back to page one :)

It seems to me that many of the good people posting here don't really understand what the main eschatological positions actually are. Thank God that MAC explained it thoughly. One thing that appeared absent from his amillennial explaination was that amillennialists generally teach that the Church IS Israel. It is the NEW Israel. (MAC's definitions of eschatological views are located on pages 8 & 9 of this thread.) Therefore, many of the references to Israel in the NT refer to the Church. The verses interpreted as Israel being revived and the like (such as in the dispensationalist view) are about the Church (New Israel) being brought out from the Old Church (Old Israel). This was done on the cross.

Israel becoming a physical nation again in 1947 and capturing Jerusalem in 1967 are just coincidences (in the amillennialist view point). In 2007, 40 years after the taking of Jerusalem (40 yrs. = generation), if the rapture does not occur, what will a dispensationalist do? They've already used up the nenewal of Israel in 1988 (thanks for that excellent prophacy Mr. Hal Lindsey) as the date for the raptue. Will the dispensationalist say that a generation is longer then 40 years come 2007? Probably. Date setting is not a good idea.

I have noticed that 1 Thess 4 :13-18. is all to often given as "proof" of a pre-trib rapture. All that this verse does is describe the rapture. Not when it occurs on someones "prophetic timeline". This verse does nothing except confirm what is already in every major end-time theory (note that even amillennialism has the rapture in its doctrine).

the Rapture is an idea that was invented in the 1830s, based on a girl's retelling of a dream she had to her pastor, Rev. Darby.No, that is wrong. That quote refers to dispensationalism: A way of dividing Biblical history into different eras of God's working. The rapture is a very old idea. The word rapture is from the Greek (koine) word arpazo, which generally is translated as "caught up" or "taken" (Latin: rapio). "The Rature" is clearly in the Bible, and has been since long before Darby.

All of the options in this poll are sub-groups of Premillennialism.
An even better summery then MAC gave can be found in Contemporary Opinions in Eschatology by Millard J. Erickson. It provides a good, unopinionated, view of the different theories.

Dad Ernie

6th December 2003, 04:01 PM

To take the whole Bible as it is written literally, when great parts of it are written in poem, song and parable...is like, no offense... how a young child learns to read. Concentrating on each letter, not having the discernment to tell whether a word is written correctly or used properly. Not understanding the subtleties or the idioms of language and ideas. Jesus Christ stated this in Luke 8.

Yes, there are parts that can be taken literally...because they were written that way. But who among us thinks that when Jesus was teaching about the wheat and the tears that he was talking about farming?
Greetings Wisdom Seeker,

I just heard a sermon on the following passages:

2 Cor 3:13-17 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

As I have said, we have come out of the darkness and into the "LIGHT" of the Son. Jesus would pull His disciples aside and explain to them the mysteries of the gospel. So does the Holy Spirit today - with those of us who are willing to listen.

This is the way Jesus addressed the self-righteous unbelievers:

Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Wisdom Seeker, if all I ever spoke to you in was parables, symbols, etc. how would you ever know what I expected of you? The substance of the Word IS tangible, and you HAD BETTER BELIEVE IT!

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

6th December 2003, 05:47 PM

Dad Ernie, most of the time I have no idea what you are trying to say. I find that the KJV version of the Bible, although a nice version sometimes, uses archaic English. Why not use a version of the Bible that uses modern English? Nobody talks like this anymore. Why should we have to read like this?

Often in your posts, all you do is quote Bible verses and then add a couple lines of your own writing. You seem to except us to know what you are thinking. I don't enjoy having to read your post numerous times, just so I can decifer them. I do that enough in my Ancient Greek and my Spanish classes. While I'm at it, I find the brightly coloured words horribly distracting.

If "willing to listen" means having to try and figure out what someone is thinking, when all they do is quote verses and expect me to know what the context of them is, then I suppose that I'm not "willing to listen". I couldn't listen if I tried to (and I did try to).

Breetai

6th December 2003, 06:42 PM

I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, it's just my opinion. It's exam week for me, I can get quite opinionated.

Dad Ernie

6th December 2003, 06:46 PM

Greetings Breetai,

I have found the KJV to my liking, although I have other versions as well. Regardless of the version, what I take seriously is the Greek and Hebrew of the original texts. I know that in your youthfulness, you may not have had a chance yet to read the Bible or the many versions that I have, but if you are a serious seeker of the Truth, you will take time and do your homework. See if this speaks plainly to you:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

ALSO

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2 Cor 4:1-7 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

6th December 2003, 07:13 PM

~Wisdom Seeker~

6th December 2003, 09:59 PM

Greetings Wisdom Seeker,

I just heard a sermon on the following passages:

2 Cor 3:13-17 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

As I have said, we have come out of the darkness and into the "LIGHT" of the Son. Jesus would pull His disciples aside and explain to them the mysteries of the gospel. So does the Holy Spirit today - with those of us who are willing to listen.

This is the way Jesus addressed the self-righteous unbelievers:

Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Wisdom Seeker, if all I ever spoke to you in was parables, symbols, etc. how would you ever know what I expected of you? The substance of the Word IS tangible, and you HAD BETTER BELIEVE IT!

Blessings,

Dad ErnieHow nice of you to share the sermon you heard with me. I don't see what it has to do with the topic or with me. So, would you mind explaining why you went to the trouble? :confused:

You expect something of me? That's very amusing. Albeit suspiciously condescending. Prey tell...what is it that you expect from me.:confused:

I get the impression that you've made some assumptions about me. Why don't you try another tact and ask instead of assuming. Otherwise...please refrain from personal comments. As they deter from the discussion. Thank you.

~Wisdom Seeker~

6th December 2003, 10:12 PM

I have read large parts of the KJV, but I cannot read with nearly the same speed or understanding. I find that this is the opinion of most people my age as well. Maybe if I had read The Caterbury Tales, I would be adept at jolly ol' English. Compared to Chaucer, the KJV is easy!

God Bless.
^_^ Canterbury tales...that was funny. Yes, I agree...the old English can be a little bit daunting. I had the same experience with Jane Austin. It takes so much consentration to not be stimied by the language to get to the storyline.

I prefer the KJV myself. I've read many of the other versions and they were easier several decades ago when I first thirsted for the contents of the Bible. But after reading the KJV a couple dozen times or so...it's actually a very beautiful language to read it in. Seems somewhat regal and awe worthy. (JMO)

But I can surely relate to what you're saying. The King James Version is the one I always go to for more reasons than the language. It seems to be a littler truer to the original languages...except perhaps Aramaic. Aramaic seems to have given the translaters a bit more trouble than the Greek or Hebrew. There are so many idioms that would be easily understood by someone who spoke the language. But as with many languages the idioms just don't translate well to English.

Good for you, in your endeavor to learn Greek. I'm awful at languages. English, German and Spanish are all my mind seem to be able to handle. Perhaps when I retire and my children are grown and moved away..... I have always wanted to study Latin. Oh but for the time to do all I want to do in this lifetime.

Well, best of luck to you. And thank you so much for your P.M. It was nice to read something pleasant. Just what I needed after a very tense day.

May God bless You As you have blessed me.

The Seeker ;)

Dad Ernie

7th December 2003, 05:08 AM

Thanks. I am currently taking an ancient Greek course for that purpose. Hebrew may come later too. I am serious about learning about God and His Word and appreciate any help that is giving to me. You have shown me respect and tried to help me, so I thank you again for that.

I have read a few different versions of the Bible and I find the NIV and the RSV and easiest (of the non paraphrase versions!). So I stick with them. I have read large parts of the KJV, but I cannot read with nearly the same speed or understanding. I find that this is the opinion of most people my age as well. Maybe if I had read The Caterbury Tales, I would be adept at jolly ol' English. Compared to Chaucer, the KJV is easy!
Greetings Breetai,

Thank you for your candid reply. I believe you are on the right track. I wish I had been walking with the Lord at your age. I would only caution that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Take your time in your studies and as you study, put what you are revealed into action. There was a time when I tried and tried and tried to understand the prophetic writings, but I just seemed to get nowhere. I finally asked the Lord about it, and His words to me were: "Seek me and my righteousness first, THEN all these things will be added to you." A lot of what you read won't make sense until they are put into action. Then the Lord will remind you that by your obedience you have gained understanding into His Word.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

7th December 2003, 01:08 PM

Salut Dad Ernie,

Lots of people have asked the Lord about things. Even if they "seek His righteousness first", sometimes He just doesn't say yes. Sometimes His answer is "no comment". We are not meant to have a full understanding of everything. The parousia is one of these things.

See if these speak passages speak clearly:

James 1:5-8 (KJV) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Eccesiasties 1:13-18 (KJV) I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered. I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Eccesiasties 5:3 (KJV) A fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

Proverbs 24:7 (KJV) Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.

Proverbs 29:20 (KJV) Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Psalm 137:9 (KJV) Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Dad Ernie

7th December 2003, 04:20 PM

Lots of people have asked the Lord about things. Even if they "seek His righteousness first", sometimes He just doesn't say yes. Sometimes His answer is "no comment". We are not meant to have a full understanding of everything. The parousia is one of these things.Jacob wrestled with the angel of God till he got an answer. Daniel prayed 21 straight days in sackcloth and ashes till he got his answer. Jesus prayed:

Luke 22:41-44 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

I hope you understand that I was not being critical, but hopefully edifying in my prior post. Nevertheless:

See if these speak passages speak clearly:

James 1:5-8 (KJV) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.Many years ago ('75) I earnestly prayed to God for "faith". I was undergoing severe persecution by the enemy at that time and my soul was in turmoil. I thought it was because I was one of the ones Jesus addressed thusly: "Oh ye of little faith." Well this went on for many days, and then one day God gave me this:

James 1:3-4 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

As I began pondering these verses and the ones above that you mention, I realized that in Christ, I have all the patience I will ever need. That happened at the cross, but I had not recognized it. God gives us patience by the "trials" we must endure. Nothing comes before its time. When we need "whatever" from God, it is there "when we need it" as is indicated by these verses:

Matt 10:18-20 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

So I gained "wisdom" by trusting Him more and putting myself into the hands of my Lord.

Eccesiasties 1:13-18 (KJV) I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered. I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.I love Ecclesiastes. Particularly "the end of the story":

Eccl 12:9-14 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Eccesiasties 5:3 (KJV) A fool's voice is known by multitude of words.How true. Sometimes I wonder if by my many words I'm not just throwing pearls to swine. But I AM A FOOL FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

Proverbs 24:7 (KJV) Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.So let not a "fool" think he can receive anything from God: (James 1:7-8)

Proverbs 29:20 (KJV) Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.Hasty - without thinking, with having many words without any value. BUT may this ever be in your mind:

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Psalm 137:9 (KJV) Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.Let's not take this out of context, but include also the prior verse to whom it is addressed:

Psalms 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Yes, these all speak very PLAINLY to me. The mysteries of God are not for those without, but those who have the eye and ear of the Lord:

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Do you listen with your physical ears or your "spiritual" ears?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

7th December 2003, 04:32 PM

Dad Ernie

7th December 2003, 06:51 PM

hehe, ya, I took Psalm 137 out of context. I get a good laugh out of it when I quite that verse to people. I'm curious, what is your eschatological stance? No need to quote verses to me.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
Greetings Breetai,

I am post-trib, pre-mill. You may read some of my posts in the eschatological section of this forum.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

7th December 2003, 07:46 PM

Thanks Dad Ernie,

That's what I gathered from reading your posts. My problem with that view is, assuming a literal seven-year tribulation is included in your view, that you can know which day Christ will return on.

Concerning the coming of the Son of Man:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matt. 24:36)

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." (1 Thes. 5:2)

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10)

If we can calculate when the seven-year tribulation begins (signing of a peace treaty with Israel), then the coming of Christ can be calculated as well. If we know when He is returning, then it is not as a theif in the night. No man knows when He will come. This contrdicts the Bible. We can only suspect when it is near.

If you believe that the seven year tribulation is not literal (but I suspect that you do), then I didn't need to quote these verses because they are irrelevant.

A pre-trib view does not have these problems because the rapture is considered the return of Christ (that doesn't seem like a strong argument for me, but an argument can be made as for as I can see).

Lee

7th December 2003, 08:29 PM

90% Southern Baptist here!

Dad Ernie

7th December 2003, 08:55 PM

Thanks Dad Ernie,

That's what I gathered from reading your posts. My problem with that view is, assuming a literal seven-year tribulation is included in your view, that you can know which day Christ will return on.

If we can calculate when the seven-year tribulation begins (signing of a peace treaty with Israel), then the coming of Christ can be calculated as well. If we know when He is returning, then it is not as a theif in the night. No man knows when He will come. This contrdicts the Bible. We can only suspect when it is near.

If you believe that the seven year tribulation is not literal (but I suspect that you do), then I didn't need to quote these verses because they are irrelevant.
Well, it might surprise you, but I believe half of the 7th week of Daniel is past, 3 1/2 years remain.

I too agree that we will NOT know the day nor the hour. But many scriptures do tell us the season, and Matt. 24 tells us that a particular "generation" shall see the days just prior to the coming of the Son of Man. There is no problem with this because if one can were able to determine the "beginning" of those last 3 1/2 years, THEN there would be a problem, but no one can. The abomination of desolation will be on the scene, even long before those days and his rise to power to wage war against the saints of God even as was in the days of John (regarding the antichrist). His authority will increase to the point that if those days were not "cut short" even the elect would not survive.

But this conversation should be taken to the Eschatology section.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Breetai

7th December 2003, 11:58 PM

Your view doesn't surprise me at all. You seem to intelligent, therefore, you would not believe the contradicting view which I described in my post. Your view, as I understand it, states that Danial's 69th week ended at Jesus' baptism. After 3 1/2 years, He was 'cut short' until the time of the end. After the church age (which we are in now), there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation before the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I got excited just writing that last sentence! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

No matter the 'correct' view on the order of event before Jesus comes back is, the fact remains...He is coming back!

With this statement, I will end my participation in this thread.

COME LORD JESUS! :prayer: :bow:

JC_FREAK

8th December 2003, 06:59 AM

I really don't have a clue about any of it!!! All I know is that I will be with my Lord and Saviour very soon. Not sure when that will be but hopefullyy soon. Until then I am going to serve him to the best of my ability.

jean11

4th January 2004, 11:57 PM

Hello

Post trib.

Jean

kwimmer

9th January 2004, 12:39 AM

I do care. Where's the "I don't believe in this rapture theology?" I think it's biblical that judgement will come when Jesus returns and I see no reason or evidence that convinces me that believers will be taken from the earth before his return. I also don't see any reason why God wouldn't allow Christians to go through the tribulation.

Room4all

10th January 2004, 07:39 AM

..........As long as I'm ready when it happens

Angeldove97

10th January 2004, 09:58 PM

I'm studying Revelation's right now actually and reading along with Revelation Unveiled by Tim LaHaye...so basing off what I know: I believe this period that we're living in right now is Pre-Tribulation. God bless. Love, Tanya

GraceReborn

28th January 2004, 06:31 PM

Pre-Trib and praying that I'm worthy when the time comes. But I believe that I am. I couldn't have said that a month ago... actually I would have said "who cares! Christians are [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] nuts!" I thank God that my eyes have been opened.

thomas the tank engine

28th January 2004, 09:12 PM

I haven't voted because I don't really understand and am not a good enough bible scholar to be able to work it out. Is the tribulation some kind of horrible thing that is described in revelation that happens at the end of the world? If so, why should some people be condemned and not others? I thought that the point of the OT was that God took the people of Israel and made them his people not to raise them above all others, but as an example to the rest of the world of what he would do someday - that he would make all people his own once more. Does this not mean that, at the end of the world, no other group of people will be raised above another? I would be interested to hear thoughts as I have very limited knowledge on this subject.

Secondly, how are the people that are not saved chosen? What about people who have never heard of God or Jesus Christ (lost Amazon tribes or whatever) but have nevertheless led lives utterly compatible with the teaching of the bible? Do they get saved or not? "No one shall come to the kingdom of heaven, save through me" teaches Jesus (I don't know the reference, sorry), implying that these blameless people will not be saved. Please tell me I have misinterpreted, as this would seem to run counter to all I've learned of Christianity to date!

Angeldove97

5th February 2004, 04:48 AM

I think you should start studying Revelations better and then alot of your questions will be answered. If I may suggest some good reading on the topic, try "Revelation Unveiled" by Tim LaHaye. I'm going through it right now and it gives you so many details and yet it is set up in an easy form to understand with maps and charts. I'm learning alot and it would take a long time to answer your questions, so I suggest trying to get a copy of this book. I pray that it helps. Love, Angel

psychoceramic

5th February 2004, 01:01 PM

i know it probable been said but i just want to go to heaven when and how dont matter to me, i have JESUS in my heart (as my daughter would say) then i get to go to heaven and hang with the father and the son.

but since it wasa vote i picked pre!!!

Apologetic

10th February 2004, 07:06 AM

what you meant by the question, but i presumed it was concerning the rapture, if it is to be pre-mid-or post tribulation.

i firmly believe it is post-tribulation, since Jesus always says and the Rev of John always says: "But he who holds on till the very end will be saved."

when the first christians were persecuted to that extent and still are in the poorer parts of the world, what on earth makes christians think God won't let us go thru the same trial as them?

....

....

knew you would say that.

yes. i agree... what makes you believe it is a misinterpreted bible verse

Flighty Mouse

10th February 2004, 10:00 PM

I'm post-trib, because:

Matthew 24:21 -
"For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been seen from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."

Matthew 24:31 -
"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24:40 -
"Then two will be in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left."

Kathryn

10th February 2004, 10:55 PM

I'm going to prepare for post-trib and pray for pre-trib. Is there really any other option?

MYMOM

15th February 2004, 02:52 PM

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?

CJ.23

16th February 2004, 09:55 PM

Er, I'm inclined to see the tribulation as outside of my knowledge, and am not going to do guesswork. I voted don't know.

Jesusfrk4life77

16th February 2004, 11:39 PM

If yall read the Bible (im not sayin yall dont) then yall would know that the believers will go up 1st...actually...the dead will go up then the Christians! then the tribulation happens w/ all the death and destruction! But the ones who are left behind will have a chance to repent and turn to God so that when Jesus comes back again to reign on earth for 1000 years then they will be w/ us (Christians)! That is my opinion and itz also fact according to the Bible! One Love, One God, One Way!
Souled Out 4 Jesus,
Alexis M

Blue Bleeds Thru

17th February 2004, 12:43 PM

I don't think the Rapture is a biblical concept

InnerPhyre

17th February 2004, 01:58 PM

I don't believe in a "Rapture" as it is understood by most. It's a fairly new concept, really. It makes no sense to me that God would pull every Christian off the planet. Who's going to be left to bring the others to Christ if we're all gone? As someone else put it, that amounts to God pulling His team off the field at halftime. Read Peter. Since when have Christians been spared tribulation? It is through suffering that we are united to Christ who has suffered for us.

LynneClomina

17th February 2004, 02:12 PM

no rapture!

a-trib?

InnerPhyre

17th February 2004, 02:16 PM

I guess if you want to be technical, I'd have to be post-trib. I doubt the Rapture (as it is understood by many) not the tribulation. I will admit, though, that its sort of a "how many angels fit on the head of a pin" argument. In the end, we're going home to Jesus. That's what really matters. I think the best advice is not to worry about it, because none of us will have a say in it whenever it happens. Live for God with a heart full of hope.

Creed

20th February 2004, 06:30 PM

I used to believe in a "Pre", know I see it as a Post-Tribulation, though it's a little different view than most, in which the normal Post Trib view is the events in Revelation are in chronological order and then the rapture. The way i see Revelations is an order but not all the seals first, then all the trumpets, and then vials...

The seals, imo, are a long version of history, trumptes shorter, vials very short at the end, in which the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial are the same event. Sounds strange i know, but once i looked into it, it fit scripture best...

The 6th seal is present tense, "hide us from the face of the Wrath of the Lamb."

The 'Day of the Lord', the 'Wrath of God', and Wrath of Lamb are the same event:

Ex:.
Day of the Lord is Wrath of Lamb which is also the 6th seal.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end it for you? the day of the LORD darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Isa 13:9 Behold, [B]the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Rev 6:12 Then I looked when the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and a huge earthquake took place; the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the full moon became blood red; 6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to the earth like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when shaken by a fierce wind. 6:14 The sky was split apart like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the very important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 6:16 They said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 6:17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

"Wrath of Lamb" aka "Wrath of God"

Note: "Wrath of God" is also all the vials:
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

The 7th Trumpet fits w/ the 7th vial:

7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying:
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

11:16 Then the twenty-four elders who are seated on their thrones before God threw themselves down with their faces to the ground and worshiped God 11:17 with these words:

“We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign.

11:18 The nations were enraged,
but your wrath [I]has come, and the time [I]has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

11:19 Then the temple of God in heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant was visible within his temple. And there were flashes of lightning, roaring, crashes of thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

7th vial <note the similarities w/ the last part of the 7th trumpet>
16:17 Finally the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying: “It is done!” 16:18 Then there were flashes of lightning, roaring, and crashes of thunder, and there was a tremendous earthquake—an earthquake unequaled since humanity has been on the earth, so tremendous was that earthquake. 16:19 The great city was split into three parts and the cities of the nations collapsed. So Babylon the great was remembered before God, and was given the cup filled with the wine made of God’s furious wrath. 16:20 Every island fled away and no mountains could be found. 16:21 And gigantic hailstones, weighing about a hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people, but they blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, since it was so horrendous.

Yea i know, it's not a commonly taught view point, and many will disagree, and say that John wrote in chronological order, because he wrote "and then i saw", "And then i saw"... Ever considered 'narrating' a movie like 'Pulp Fiction'? What about a book, how does an author keep scenes flowing w/out being sparatic; ex. several things going on at the same time, but an author will generally only describe one scene at a time so to speak...

anyway, that's how i see it know... sorry for the length, it started off short, honest :)

L8r and God Bless,
Creed