Religion vs Spirituality

[ivory]

There are many distinctions between religion, and Sprituality. Yet far too many people fail to make, or understand the distinction. Hundreds of Millions of people are religious, I often wonder how many of us are Spiritual. I believe religion can be anything that the person practicing desires. God, on the other hand, defines spirituality. Since religion is man defined, Religion is a manifestation of the flesh. But Spirituality, as defined by God, is a manifestation of His nature. Religion bears ill fruit. Spirituality bears the fruit of eternal life. Or, more accurately, a religious heart is a creation of man, and a Spiritual heart is a creation of God. Each of us sows seed into our hearts daily. What we focus on, love, choose, and give ourselves to is planted into our hearts, and eventually, if nothing uproots it, produces the fruit that it is destined to. If we sow Spiritual seed, we will reap the fruit of the Spirit, or put another way, Spirituality.

How do you feel about this

[twistedsketch]

You can't be spiritual without being religious. Our relationship with God is built on faith, prayer, obedience, and other "religious" actions. Jesus was religious, as was Abraham. While one can be religious without being spiritual, true spirituality cannot come without true religion.

[ivory]

You can't be spiritual without being religious. Our relationship with God is built on faith, prayer, obedience, and other "religious" actions. Jesus was religious, as was Abraham. While one can be religious without being spiritual, true spirituality cannot come without true religion.
Wouldn't these be spiritual actions?

[twistedsketch]

Wouldn't these be spiritual actions?

Yes, but they are also religious actions.

[ivory]

Yes, but they are also religious actions.
Wouldn't our ability to have faith come from the Holy Spirit?

[twistedsketch]

Wouldn't our ability to have faith come from the Holy Spirit?

Everybody has faith in something, not everybody has the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables saving faith in Christ though.

[ivory]

Everybody has faith in something, not everybody has the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables saving faith in Christ though.
We are talking about religious, and spirituality not other things.

[twistedsketch]

We are talking about religious, and spirituality not other things.

That's what I'm talking about too. Every false religion is founded on faith too. It's faith in the wrong thing, but it's faith nonetheless. The faith that God enables and strengthens is really a faith that is in Him.

[christianmomof3]

I think different people have different definitions of "religion" and "religious".
To me, religion is man's way of trying to please God on his own without Christ.
The same action may be religious if we do it because we think it is a good thing to do or spiritual if we do it because the Lord leads us to do it.
All of our actions for the Lord should be initiated by Him, not by us.

[JDIBe]

[F are many distinctions between religion, and Sprituality. Yet far too many people fail to make, or understand the distinction. Hundreds of Millions of people are religious, I often wonder how many of us are Spiritual. I believe religion can be anything that the person practicing desires. God, on the other hand, defines spirituality. Since religion is man defined, Religion is a manifestation of the flesh. But Spirituality, as defined by God, is a manifestation of His nature. Religion bears ill fruit. Spirituality bears the fruit of eternal life. Or, more accurately, a religious heart is a creation of man, and a Spiritual heart is a creation of God. Each of us sows seed into our hearts daily. What we focus on, love, choose, and give ourselves to is planted into our hearts, and eventually, if nothing uproots it, produces the fruit that it is destined to. If we sow Spiritual seed, we will reap the fruit of the Spirit, or put another way, Spirituality.[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[F do you feel about this [/COLOR][/FONT]
Ok, if religion is only man-made and bad, how do you explain the use of the term here?

(BTW, this has been brought up before, but it seems the "spiritual" people never seem to answer it. They just ignore it and move on. I'm not being argumentative. I'm really curious as to how folks would view this in light of their belief.)

James 1:26-27
26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.


What is this "pure and undefiled" religion? It seems to imply there is "good" and "bad" religion. How does this reconcile with the view that religion is man-made?

Can one be "spiritual" and yet not pleasing unto God?

[thenewageriseth]

There are many distinctions between religion, and Sprituality. Yet far too many people fail to make, or understand the distinction. Hundreds of Millions of people are religious, I often wonder how many of us are Spiritual. I believe religion can be anything that the person practicing desires. God, on the other hand, defines spirituality. Since religion is man defined, Religion is a manifestation of the flesh. But Spirituality, as defined by God, is a manifestation of His nature. Religion bears ill fruit. Spirituality bears the fruit of eternal life. Or, more accurately, a religious heart is a creation of man, and a Spiritual heart is a creation of God. Each of us sows seed into our hearts daily. What we focus on, love, choose, and give ourselves to is planted into our hearts, and eventually, if nothing uproots it, produces the fruit that it is destined to. If we sow Spiritual seed, we will reap the fruit of the Spirit, or put another way, Spirituality.

How do you feel about this
I feel that spirituality is more important than being religious. Religion can divide people and sometimes religion is used in cult-like or alienating ways.

[pletho]

of course one can be spiritual and not please God, you are either a natural man or a spiritual man, one who has spirit or one who does not, and having spirit does not gaurantee that your walk will please God, you the real you, the spirit in you, poured out into your heart, the Christ in You, is what God looks at, it's your new nature, but you still have what is called biblically an old man which is the fleshly body which is to be directed by the written word of God by your freedom of will and when its not then that the walk is unpleasing at that point, but you cannot be seperated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, because it's Christ in you, you are a new creation. That's maybe to much at once I hope not

[seekthetruth909]

Ok, if religion is only man-made and bad, how do you explain the use of the term here?

(BTW, this has been brought up before, but it seems the "spiritual" people never seem to answer it. They just ignore it and move on. I'm not being argumentative. I'm really curious as to how folks would view this in light of their belief.)

James 1:26-27
26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.


What is this "pure and undefiled" religion? It seems to imply there is "good" and "bad" religion. How does this reconcile with the view that religion is man-made?

Can one be "spiritual" and yet not pleasing unto God?


It all depends on your definition of religious. Some people consider religion to be man made traditions, others think of religious in the regards to their relationship to God’s Word. In relation to the James 1:21, if we take it literally, true religion is about charity. This would make most of our concepts of the meaning of the word “religious” wrong. Religion = Charity Religious = Giving.

I think we are just dealing with semantics. As Christian mom of 3 mentioned, everyone probably has their own concept of what “religious” and “spiritual” means. To some it is one and the same; to others it is something completely different.

What does the dictionary say?

re·li·gious
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with religion: a religious holiday.
2. imbued with or exhibiting religion; pious; devout; godly: a religious man.
3. scrupulously faithful; conscientious: religious care.
4. pertaining to or connected with a monastic or religious order.
5. appropriate to religion or to sacred rites or observances.
–noun 6. a member of a religious order, congregation, etc.; a monk, friar, or nun.
7. the religious, devout or religious persons: Each year, thousands of the religious make pilgrimages to the shrine.

spir·it·u·al
1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.
–noun 10. a spiritual or religious song: authentic folk spirituals.
11. spirituals, affairs of the church.
12. a spiritual thing or matter.

[JDIBe]

[F New Roman] [/FONT]
[F New Roman]It all depends on your definition of religious. Some people consider religion to be man made traditions, others think of religious in the regards to their relationship to God’s Word. In relation to the James 1:21, if we take it literally, true religion is about charity. This would make most of our concepts of the meaning of the word “religious” wrong. Religion = Charity Religious = Giving.[/FONT]


I understand your point, but look at the verses again...

James 1:27
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.


This verse implies "action" not just "feeling". Yes, it is important to feel concern for the widows and orphans and it is important to want to be unspotted, but you must physically DO SOMETHING about it as well. The action is just as important as the feeling and I think that is lost sometimes in these discussions.

I agree with you that it is mostly semantics. However, it is unwise to use Biblical terms when discussing Biblical things and define them in unbiblical ways. It only leads to confusion and discord.
Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be "worthless or bad religion" vs. "pure religion". I would guess there are some who would deny the existence of "pure religion" at all.

Sadly, there are a lot of "spiritual" people out there that are neither "religious" or "spiritual". When one's heart is right, it inspires one to do good deeds for others. When one does good deeds for others, it inspires one to love them even more, helping one grow spiritually. Each feeds the other. If you concentrate on study and prayer and trying to conjure up love for your fellow man, you will only be half a Christian. Likewise, if you set about to do good deeds and "make the world a better place" without love, prayer and study, you will only be half a Christian as well.

A good Spiritual (and Religious) Christian needs both. It's like a balanced diet. They strengthen each other. Only with both, can you become the man or woman God truly wants you to be.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Seems like any place in the bible where it mentions “religion” it is in negative terms. The only instance I can think of where it is not presented in a negative is when it's used in the context as being “pure religion” which obviously is love and not related to “religion” as it is presented in other passages.


No “religion” here.
Spirituality is interesting... but escapes context.
I'll stick with “relationship” with God.

[pletho]

Seems like any place in the bible where it mentions “religion” it is in negative terms. The only instance I can think of where it is not presented in a negative is when it's used in the context as being “pure religion” which obviously is love and not related to “religion” as it is presented in other passages.


No “religion” here.
Spirituality is interesting... but escapes context.
I'll stick with “relationship” with God.
Hello, God bless, you are right Religion is used negatively in the bible because it's man's ways of getting to God, it represents the outward ordinances, rules, regs and so on, man made stuff, the word i believe is 'threskeia' in greek which is the exactly opposite of the word used for Godliness, 'eusebia' which is a true and vital spiritual relationship with God based on the truth. Man can never get to got by his works, that's why Jesus Christ said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me.. it's by accepting and believing the completed works of Jesus Christ, confessing him as Lord, believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead, that's what brings a man from darkness unto light, from being dead in sins and trespasses, from being children of wrath by nature, without hope and without God, into the Father God's loving Family, his son forever.... no man is capable of doing that on his own it took a perfect man to make this available, and then all we do is believe on Him, accept what he made available, it's really so simple, how easy and loving God made it to be His children. Bless, steve

person

[tturt]

"Doing" versus "being."

[JDIBe]

Seems like any place in the bible where it mentions “religion” it is in negative terms. The only instance I can think of where it is not presented in a negative is when it's used in the context as being “pure religion” which obviously is love and not related to “religion” as it is presented in other passages.


No “religion” here.
Spirituality is interesting... but escapes context.
I'll stick with “relationship” with God.

Again, look at the James scripture. Are we to simply "love" the widows and orphans or is that love supposed to manifest itself in a certain way?

BTW, a word search of the ASV (OT & NT) shows the word "religion" appears only 6 times in the Bible, all in the NT. (In the KJV there are only 5...)

Act 25:19 but had certain questions against him of their own religion, and of one Jesus, who was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.
Act 26:5 having knowledge of me from the first, if they be willing to testify, that after the straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:
Gal 1:14 and I advanced in the Jews' religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
Jam 1:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Four of these verses refer to the Jewish religion (which, yes, bad for us, but not necessarily bad if you were an OT Jew...) and two of them explain the difference between "vain" religion and "pure" religion. Now how can one make the statement that religion is always used in the negative sense in the Bible using these 6 passages?

Where the idea comes from apparently, is from preachers and teachers and commentaries, not from the Bible.

[pletho]

Again, look at the James scripture. Are we to simply "love" the widows and orphans or is that love supposed to manifest itself in a certain way?

BTW, a word search of the ASV (OT & NT) shows the word "religion" appears only 6 times in the Bible, all in the NT. (In the KJV there are only 5...)

Act 25:19 but had certain questions against him of their own religion, and of one Jesus, who was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.
Act 26:5 having knowledge of me from the first, if they be willing to testify, that after the straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:
Gal 1:14 and I advanced in the Jews' religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
Jam 1:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Four of these verses refer to the Jewish religion (which, yes, bad for us, but not necessarily bad if you were an OT Jew...) and two of them explain the difference between "vain" religion and "pure" religion. Now how can one make the statement that religion is always used in the negative sense in the Bible using these 6 passages?

Where the idea comes from apparently, is from preachers and teachers and commentaries, not from the Bible.
The negative sense is that religion (old test law) and (mans traditions taught as doctrine) are an direct affront against CHRISTIANITY, religion and religous people are always saying you have to do something to please or get to God, TRUE Christianity does not ask you to do something to get get to God to be saved have eternal life, other than believe AND LITTERALLY DO Romans 10:9,10, because no man is perfect other than Jesus Christ was, therefefore no man could have perfectly carried out the jews religion, the law except Jesus Christ, that's why it says he fullfilled the law, he made available something much greater than outward ordinances. In the Old testament under the law they had to do the law to be righteous before God, NOW in our time in order to be righteous in God's sight we believe upon Jesus Christ, and receive the gift of righteousness, it's free it's an inside job, we have it because we have a new nature, we are a new creation, we have holy spirit, Romans 5:17 bless, steve

[tonysma]

Did you know that atheist, santaism, and various other religions believe they are spiritual...It is my opinion that you have to be created by God to have a spirit...

[JDIBe]

The negative sense is that religion (old test law) and (mans traditions taught as doctrine) are an direct affront against CHRISTIANITY, religion and religous people are always saying you have to do something to please or get to God, TRUE Christianity does not ask you to do something to get get to God to be saved have eternal life, other than believe AND LITTERALLY DO Romans 10:9,10, because no man is perfect other than Jesus Christ was, therefefore no man could have perfectly carried out the jews religion, the law except Jesus Christ, that's why it says he fullfilled the law, he made available something much greater than outward ordinances. In the Old testament under the law they had to do the law to be righteous before God, NOW in our time in order to be righteous in God's sight we believe upon Jesus Christ, and receive the gift of righteousness, it's free it's an inside job, we have it because we have a new nature, we are a new creation, we have holy spirit, Romans 5:17 bless, steve

True, salvation is a free gift of God. It cannot be earned. So you have accepted the gift of salvation. What does one do then?.......

[ivory]

Ok, if religion is only man-made and bad, how do you explain the use of the term here?

(BTW, this has been brought up before, but it seems the "spiritual" people never seem to answer it. They just ignore it and move on. I'm not being argumentative. I'm really curious as to how folks would view this in light of their belief.)

James 1:26-27
26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.


What is this "pure and undefiled" religion? It seems to imply there is "good" and "bad" religion. How does this reconcile with the view that religion is man-made?

Can one be "spiritual" and yet not pleasing unto God?
Were in this post did I say religion was bad?

[ivory]

True, salvation is a free gift of God. It cannot be earned. So you have accepted the gift of salvation. What does one do then?.......
Get into the Word of God, that's were your strenght is.

[ivory]

Did you know that atheist, santaism, and various other religions believe they are spiritual...It is my opinion that you have to be created by God to have a spirit...
If you would notice, most religious people think their spiritual.

[ivory]

The negative sense is that religion (old test law) and (mans traditions taught as doctrine) are an direct affront against CHRISTIANITY, religion and religous people are always saying you have to do something to please or get to God, TRUE Christianity does not ask you to do something to get get to God to be saved have eternal life, other than believe AND LITTERALLY DO Romans 10:9,10, because no man is perfect other than Jesus Christ was, therefefore no man could have perfectly carried out the jews religion, the law except Jesus Christ, that's why it says he fullfilled the law, he made available something much greater than outward ordinances. In the Old testament under the law they had to do the law to be righteous before God, NOW in our time in order to be righteous in God's sight we believe upon Jesus Christ, and receive the gift of righteousness, it's free it's an inside job, we have it because we have a new nature, we are a new creation, we have holy spirit, Romans 5:17 bless, steve
I agree!

[JDIBe]

Were in this post did I say religion was bad?

Well let's see... You said:

1. Religion is a manifestation of the flesh.
2. A religious heart is a creation of man.
3. Religion bears ill fruit.

How are we supposed to take that? Are you now saying religion can be good?

You also say "Get into the Word of God." But are we to study the rest of our lives and do nothing about it? Many people in life unfortunately, are content with being "babes in Christ" and don't consider how they must grow. Christianity isn't and never was a spectator sport...

[pletho]

True, salvation is a free gift of God. It cannot be earned. So you have accepted the gift of salvation. What does one do then?.......
God bless you, Great question, what you want to do is to begin to build the Mind of Christ in to your heart and Mind, in Romans it's called the renewed mind Romans 12:1,2.
In Ephesians it says to put on the new man in 4:24.

Where alot of people miss it is that they don't understand how to get rid of the old man, their old ways of doing things, thinking, attitudes, in order to get rid of these you put on the new man, the mind of Christ, you change your beliefs, your thoughts your attitudes, which in turn logically will change your behavior. Most people spend all their time focusing on their mistakes their sins ect.. but that's not how to become like Christ. It's the introduction of light that dispells all darkness.
The whole point is to walk with the same power and Love Jesus Christ did. God's word dictates what thought patterns we are to have, we could go on for days on them, but in simplicity, You are to first get to the point that you love your neighbor as yourself, and to do that it implies that you love yourself, loving yourself is to think about yourself the way in which God thinks about you, that you are righteous, that you are holy and without blame, that God loves you ect...

Then that love in your heart towards yourself is to be directed towards others, you dont see them in any lesser light than God sees you, most people don't see them selves up to par with God's standards, how much higher can you get than to be called a Son of God,
I John 3:1 what does that really mean to your heart it's not just words, it's a great thing to be called a son of God, there is much, much, more to say, I'll stop for now, so you can speak... Bless, Steve

[ivory]

Well let's see... You said:

1. Religion is a manifestation of the flesh.
2. A religious heart is a creation of man.
3. Religion bears ill fruit.

How are we supposed to take that? Are you now saying religion can be good?

You also say "Get into the Word of God." But are we to study the rest of our lives and do nothing about it? Many people in life unfortunately, are content with being "babes in Christ" and don't consider how they must grow. Christianity isn't and never was a spectator sport...
Answer this question for me please. Did God make religion or man?

[JDIBe]

Answer this question for me please. Did God make religion or man?

Exodus 20:1-17

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,
6 and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.


Are these the words of Moses or of God?

Yes, man has at times tried to add to the Word of God and that is wrong. And yes, not all religious activity comes from God. ("vain" and "worthless" religion) But God has always expected His people to act in a certain way. He has expected His Word to have a real, profound, life-changing, tangible effect on how we conduct ourselves toward Him and toward others.

Let me ask this:

If there is such a thing as "pure and undefiled" religion, (and we know there is, James says so...) how could it come from man? Can man create anything that is "pure and undefiled"? Isn't God the Source of all things good?

[JDIBe]

God bless you, Great question, what you want to do is to begin to build the Mind of Christ in to your heart and Mind, in Romans it's called the renewed mind Romans 12:1,2.
In Ephesians it says to put on the new man in 4:24.

Where alot of people miss it is that they don't understand how to get rid of the old man, their old ways of doing things, thinking, attitudes, in order to get rid of these you put on the new man, the mind of Christ, you change your beliefs, your thoughts your attitudes, which in turn logically will change your behavior. Most people spend all their time focusing on their mistakes their sins ect.. but that's not how to become like Christ. It's the introduction of light that dispells all darkness.
The whole point is to walk with the same power and Love Jesus Christ did. God's word dictates what thought patterns we are to have, we could go on for days on them, but in simplicity, You are to first get to the point that you love your neighbor as yourself, and to do that it implies that you love yourself, loving yourself is to think about yourself the way in which God thinks about you, that you are righteous, that you are holy and without blame, that God loves you ect...

Then that love in your heart towards yourself is to be directed towards others, you dont see them in any lesser light than God sees you, most people don't see them selves up to par with God's standards, how much higher can you get than to be called a Son of God,
I John 3:1 what does that really mean to your heart it's not just words, it's a great thing to be called a son of God, there is much, much, more to say, I'll stop for now, so you can speak... Bless, Steve

Steve, you are correct, IMO. Building the mind of Christ is the next necessary step. (and one that probably does not stop until you are in the ground) What I am trying to say is, study and meditation will only take you so far. Human beings are not built in such a way as to be able to manufacture "feelings" for another. The Christian writer C.S. Lewis once said, "Good and evil both increase at a compound rate.". One of the best ways to engender love toward someone else is to do something nice for them. By doing something nice, you will find yourself liking them even more. (Of course, the converse is true,as well. By treating someone badly, you will begin to hate them. Soon you will find yourself capable of doing things that are unimaginable. The Holocaust did not happen overnight, you know...)

Doing good things makes your heart softer and a softer heart inspires good things. They feed off each other. EACH is necessary for Christian growth.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "being" consists of "doing" as well. One can "be" married, but if one does not "do" marriage, one will not "be" married for very long.:)

(I sometimes wonder if the high divorce rate among Christians is because people do not understand this.)

[Artificial Intelligence]

Again, look at the James scripture. Are we to simply "love" the widows and orphans or is that love supposed to manifest itself in a certain way?

BTW, a word search of the ASV (OT & NT) shows the word "religion" appears only 6 times in the Bible, all in the NT. (In the KJV there are only 5...)

Act 25:19 but had certain questions against him of their own religion, and of one Jesus, who was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.
Act 26:5 having knowledge of me from the first, if they be willing to testify, that after the straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:
Gal 1:14 and I advanced in the Jews' religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
Jam 1:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Four of these verses refer to the Jewish religion (which, yes, bad for us, but not necessarily bad if you were an OT Jew...) and two of them explain the difference between "vain" religion and "pure" religion. Now how can one make the statement that religion is always used in the negative sense in the Bible using these 6 passages?

Where the idea comes from apparently, is from preachers and teachers and commentaries, not from the Bible.

Look again, it's all in the negative sense. Look at time, place and the context of the verses. Look at the verse as a whole. Look at the verse in relation to to surrounding verses. In the context it depicts being outside (Acts 25). Religion of that time and place of the Pharisees (Acts 26). Through religion persecution of the Christians by the blindness of his heart (Gal 1:13-14+). And then the “pure religion” as I spoke of which is not in the negative sense which I still claim is love.


Unfortunately you hacked up my meaning of love and attached your own interpretation of what I said or didn't say. You disagree that religion is in the negative everywhere it is mentioned in the bible? That I'm just following someone else and what they say an not looking at what the bible teaches? Pretty sad, man. Are you heareto discuss or to tare down people and debate for debates sake?

btw isn't Church of Christ a denomination?

[MARK777]

Heres my definition of Spirituality vs religion , say one person here's the word of God consistantly and developed some fruits of the Spirit, they are motivated to give of their time talent and treasure out of love which has developed from learning about who and what God is, another person who has heard the same message but hasnt yet developed this attribute, copies the other persons actions not out of love but because they see it as the right thing to do.

God created us as rational thinking creatures, so we can choose from our own free will and love to do his will, he doesnt want robots just performing actions because he has told them to, the things which we class as religious have fell into a false concept now, a high percentage of religion is just false fasade and fakeism to make people appear rightious in other peoples eyes, self rightiousness is not a fruit of the spirit, it is a man made thing.

However their is good fruits which can be manifested from action (religion) this comes naturually when we operate in God's plan for our life, its a case of stop trying to do and just be who we are in Christ and grow, God calls the works of man without the power of the Spirit dead works, however the works of man by the power of the spirit fruits of the Spirit (spirituality)

We are to produce fruits of the Spirit as this is what bring glory to God and rewards us in time and eternity, works by the fruits of the spirit is devine good works such as building and edifiying people, giving of your time, talent and treasure for the cause of Christ, and performing your proper function in the body of Christ without false motivation or hidden agenda, this is what could be called pure religion.

[JDIBe]

Look again, it's all in the negative sense. Look at time, place and the context of the verses. Look at the verse as a whole. Look at the verse in relation to to surrounding verses. In the context it depicts being outside (Acts 25). Religion of that time and place of the Pharisees (Acts 26). Through religion persecution of the Christians by the blindness of his heart (Gal 1:13-14+). And then the “pure religion” as I spoke of which is not in the negative sense which I still claim is love.

Friend,
You may say it is love, but James says something clearly different:

James 1:27
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

I kind of understand where you are coming from, but your statement clearly contradicts the above Scripture. Blatantly. I would humbly suggest you try to find an interpretation of "religion" that is in harmony with all Scripture.


Unfortunately you hacked up my meaning of love and attached your own interpretation of what I said or didn't say.

Well I certainly didn't mean to do that. This is what I felt you were saying.


You disagree that religion is in the negative everywhere it is mentioned in the bible?


Yes. I disagree that religion is in the negative everywhere it is mentioned in the Bible. In fact, you state it is mentioned in the positive sense in v27 above in this post.


That I'm just following someone else and what they say an not looking at what the bible teaches? Pretty sad, man. Are you heareto discuss or to tare down people and debate for debates sake?

Well, I'm certainly here to discuss. When someone makes a blanket statement such as, "Religion is always negative in the Bible", I think it is always helpful to look and see just what the Bible says about the subject, hence the verses. I find the Biblical evidence less than compeling (particularly with James 1:27). If is not explictly a biblical doctrine, then it necessarily follows it comes from man. Whether it is a good opinion or not is a matter of discussion, but the blanket statement being discussed is wrong, IMO.


btw isn't Church of Christ a denomination?

Actually no, we do not consider ourselves a denomination. We consider ourselves "Christians only". Our churches have no central government. (local Elders are the highest earthly authority) We have no creed except for the Bible. We do our best to worship as the early Christians worshiped and have a high regard for the Scriptures as God's Word. We are no more a denomination than the Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Yes. I disagree that religion is in the negative everywhere it is mentioned in the Bible. In fact, you state it is mentioned in the positive sense in v27 above in this post. Look Bro, You need to reread my comments then, I referred to v27 as “pure religion” and not in the same context as religion as it is described in other verses. I thought I already mentioned this twice and from the beginning, it's not getting through? need I reword it? Everywhere in the bible that it mentions religion it is in the negative. Pure Religion is not religion, it is love. Visiting the fatherless and widows is out of an act of love, what else is it? If it is not Pure, than it is simply religion for the sake of doing to for religiosity sake, no love required... how sad. If you do such a thing religiously, it is worth nothing! Do this out of love as is the pure religion and it is worth much.
Mark 12:33 And to love him [God] with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

[ivory]

Look Bro, You need to reread my comments then, I referred to v27 as “pure religion” and not in the same context as religion as it is described in other verses. I thought I already mentioned this twice and from the beginning, it's not getting through? need I reword it? Everywhere in the bible that it mentions religion it is in the negative. Pure Religion is not religion, it is love. Visiting the fatherless and widows is out of an act of love, what else is it? If it is not Pure, than it is simply religion for the sake of doing to for religiosity sake, no love required... how sad. If you do such a thing religiously, it is worth nothing! Do this out of love as is the pure religion and it is worth much.
Mark 12:33 And to love him [God] with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Would you say there is more Hypocrites in the church then christians?

[JDIBe]

Look Bro, You need to reread my comments then, I referred to v27 as “pure religion” and not in the same context as religion as it is described in other verses. I thought I already mentioned this twice and from the beginning, it's not getting through? need I reword it? Everywhere in the bible that it mentions religion it is in the negative. Pure Religion is not religion, it is love. Visiting the fatherless and widows is out of an act of love, what else is it? If it is not Pure, than it is simply religion for the sake of doing to for religiosity sake, no love required... how sad. If you do such a thing religiously, it is worth nothing! Do this out of love as is the pure religion and it is worth much.
Mark 12:33 And to love him [God] with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Friend,

I think I understand what you are trying to say. However, your terminology leads you into contradicting yourself at every turn. You mention v27 not being in the same context as the others and then you turn right back around and say everywhere in the Bible it mentions religion it is in the negative. Then you say pure religion is not religion.:scratch: :scratch: I think it would be more useful in explaining things if you had a better way to differentiate between what you call "religion" and "pure religion". So yes, I think in the future, it might be best to find a way to reword it. I think it is interesting that you use the phrase "act of love" for that is what pure religion is, it is love put into action. It is not the love itself, but the consequences that flow out of that love. But that love must have consequences. Otherwise it is not love at all. It is just a mere feeling.

One small caveat to the above. There are times in your life when you will not feel like doing something nice. Do it anyway. If you are married, you will understand what I mean. There are times in your marriage when your spouse is the most infuriating, unlovable person on the face of the earth. Treat her with love and respect anyway. You do this because you realize the current feeling will pass and you will soon think more clearly. You also do it because you made a commitment to love her, not just when you feel like it. Christianity is often the same way. Sometimes you do good even when you don't feel like it. (Ever not want to go to church on a Sunday?) You do it because you have grown to love good itself (the mind of God) and you made a commitment to God. That's why I try not to judge other people when they do good things. Maybe they are trying their best to reconnect to God, and I admire that.
Now obviously one cannot operate on this mindset for long. It is temporary and cannot be maintained, but sometimes you have to fight through it.

I think there are fewer people out there that do good and help others simply for "religiosity's sake" with no love, than you think. There are many easier ways (and more fun) in this world to obtain satisfaction than that.

[Artificial Intelligence]

but your statement clearly contradicts the above Scripture. Blatantly. I would humbly suggest you try to find an interpretation of "religion" that is in harmony with all Scripture. No I just view it differently than you must be. There is luck but there is bad luck yet both are not the same meaning, even the greek is different for the passages you listed. The meaning of Pure Religion is contained in the whole of the passage where it presides, where as in other verses that mention religion (singularly) it shown the meaning of it in those passages. Their simply not the same in context of the passage.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Would you say there is more Hypocrites in the church then christians? I wouldn't know, I think I'll work out my own issues before judging the whole of the Church ;)
Could use a pure revival though :) always good time for a revival :thumbsup:

[englishfreeman]

Heres my definition of Spirituality vs religion , say one person here's the word of God consistantly and developed some fruits of the Spirit, they are motivated to give of their time talent and treasure out of love which has developed from learning about who and what God is, another person who has heard the same message but hasnt yet developed this attribute, copies the other persons actions not out of love but because they see it as the right thing to do.

God created us as rational thinking creatures, so we can choose from our own free will and love to do his will, he doesnt want robots just performing actions because he has told them to, the things which we class as religious have fell into a false concept now, a high percentage of religion is just false fasade and fakeism to make people appear rightious in other peoples eyes, self rightiousness is not a fruit of the spirit, it is a man made thing.

However their is good fruits which can be manifested from action (religion) this comes naturually when we operate in God's plan for our life, its a case of stop trying to do and just be who we are in Christ and grow, God calls the works of man without the power of the Spirit dead works, however the works of man by the power of the spirit fruits of the Spirit (spirituality)

We are to produce fruits of the Spirit as this is what bring glory to God and rewards us in time and eternity, works by the fruits of the spirit is devine good works such as building and edifiying people, giving of your time, talent and treasure for the cause of Christ, and performing your proper function in the body of Christ without false motivation or hidden agenda, this is what could be called pure religion.
I tottally agree