Baptism In The Holy Spirit

[ivory]

Baptism In The Holy Spirit

I In deed baptize you with water unto repentance,
but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
( Matt 3:11 )

I believe we can not be gradually baptized in the Holy Ghost, just as we cannot be gradually baptized in water. We can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one
day that filling WILL spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost. Many believers don't ask for this experience because they think they
have receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. This is in a sense true, that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it.
" How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? ( Luke 11:13 )

What do you think?

[calidog]

Here's my take:

with all-convicts us
in us-filled or baptized and sealed
upon us- empowered

as a christian, (my take) when we ask for a "filling of the Holy Spirit" God changes our desires and draws us (back) into His word and worship' hence we find ourselves in continual fellowship with Him.


upon us (empowered)
I believe this is when God uses us for His purposes and He accomplishes it through His strength; even to the extent of a miracle.

[ivory]

Here's my take:

with all-convicts us
in us-filled or baptized and sealed
upon us- empowered

as a christian, (my take) when we ask for a "filling of the Holy Spirit" God changes our desires and draws us (back) into His word and worship' hence we find ourselves in continual fellowship with Him.


upon us (empowered)
I believe this is when God uses us for His purposes and He accomplishes it through His strength; even to the extent of a miracle.
I agree! The question I must ask is:

Do we have to ask for His Spirit? Some believe it comes at conversion, and what does it mean to be baptised in the Spirit? Filled/baptised/indwelled

[calidog]

I agree! The question I must ask is:

Do we have to ask for His Spirit? Some believe it comes at conversion, and what does it mean to be baptised in the Spirit? Filled/baptised/indwelled
had to re-evaluate

with all- convicts
in us-sealed at conversion
upon us-baptized (empowered to serve God)

We don't have to ask for His Spirit
on the other hand we MAY ask

[ivory]

" How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? ( Luke 11:13 )

What is this saying and why?

[calidog]

" How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? ( Luke 11:13 )

What is this saying and why?
Probably the baptism (preparation for service)

or

an overflowing (as He was telling the woman at the well){a renewing}

[CrazyforYeshua]

We receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, He is our deposit. Those that have the Spirit are Gods, those who do not are not.
The Baptism of the Spirit is for power, and Spiritual Gifts. If we so choose, we can receive, that is why we ask.

[ivory]

We receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, He is our deposit. Those that have the Spirit are Gods, those who do not are not.
The Baptism of the Spirit is for power, and Spiritual Gifts. If we so choose, we can receive, that is why we ask.
Can a person receive eternal life in heaven without the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

[calidog]

absolutely

[ivory]

absolutely
absolutely!

Salvation is a free gift!

[linssue55]

Baptism In The Holy Spirit



I In deed baptize you with water unto repentance,
but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
( Matt 3:11 )

I believe we can not be gradually baptized in the Holy Ghost, just as we cannot be gradually baptized in water. We can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one
day that filling WILL spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost. Many believers don't ask for this experience because they think they
have receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. This is in a sense true, that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it.
" How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? ( Luke 11:13 )


What do you think?


Exegeted....

{3 of 7 baptisms in one passage}

Mat 3:11~~ I make it a habit of baptizing {identify} you - to your advantage - with water {John's ritual water baptism} because of {your} repentance {change of mental attitude toward Christ - used more when the audience is Jewish}. But He that comes after me {a herald announcing the King} keeps on being mightier than I . . . Whose sandals I am not worthy to lace . . . He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit {pneuma - dry baptism - the way the Church Age begins and Church is formed -Union with Christ - a baptism of blessing} . . . and with fire {baptism of fire - a baptism of judgment}.


{Note: 'Baptizo' means to identify one thing with another. The converts are dunked in the Jordan waters and, therefore, the converts are identified with the knowledge that they are now in union with the Kingdom of God and the King Himself - Jesus Christ. This is a public declaration of your Faith in Christ and having salvation - NOT part of salvation itself.}


{Note: From Acts we can see that believers born in the Jewish Age did not receive the filling of the Holy Spirit. After the Church age began, the Filling of the Holy Spirit was immediate upon Faith in Christ. The Old Testament Saints did not receive the filling of the Holy Spirit all at once. It started in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and spread from there.}


{Note: Water is the method of bringing the Herald to the King. John will initially decline to baptize Jesus because he is used to baptizing converts only. But, it will be made clear to him that for converts baptism represents identification with the Kingdom of God, but with Jesus, water baptism is unique and represents identification of Jesus with the Plan of God. Very little ritual is authorized in the Church Age so there is no way it can be distorted! The Lord's table and maybe baptism is all that is left.}


{Note: Pneuma - that which exists yet is invisible - we call it 'spirit'. Ghost was a word in the Classical Greek, but there is no word for Ghost in the Koi-ni Greek (common Greek) of the New Testament.}

[ivory]

"Note: Pneuma - that which exists yet is invisible - we call it 'spirit'. Ghost was a word in the Classical Greek, but there is no word for Ghost in the Koi-ni Greek (common Greek) of the New Testament.}"

I also call Him Spirit, but there are many places in my bible (KJV) that uses the word Ghost, and many christians, depending on what faith their in uses the word Ghost.

Maybe I'm missing your point!

[ivory]

I have a question, that was asked of me. I really did not know how to answer it. Maybe someone can help me with it.

WAS JESUS BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?:help:

[calidog]

. We can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one
day that filling WILL spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost. Could you expound?

[calidog]

I have a question, that was asked of me. I really did not know how to answer it. Maybe someone can help me with it.

WAS JESUS BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?:help:
since He was the seed of the Holy Spirit, I would say no.

[AllTalkNoAction]

My bible says that the baptism in the Spirit is how God adds people to His body (1 Cor. 12v13).
I don't see how you can have salvation and not be in the body (the church)

It also refers to it as "the beginning" (Acts 11v14-18), and Jesus described it as receiving the promise of the Father (Luke 24v29, Acts 1v4-8).

"he saved us, by the washing (greek loutrou: complete washing, baptism) of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3v5-6)

Starting at Pentecost we read:-
Ac:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (referring to the speaking in tongues)

As far as I'm concerned, the baptismin the Spirit = receiving the Holy Spirit = being born of the Spirit.

There are not different classes of Christian, the baptism in the Spirit is how Jesus saves.

[ivory]

Could you expound?
[/CENTER]
Getting more and more of Him everyday

[calidog]

AllTalkNoAction;
upon becoming saved, does God empower us ALL to serve?

[calidog]

Getting more and more of Him everyday

I C :)

amen

[ivory]

My bible says that the baptism in the Spirit is how God adds people to His body (1 Cor. 12v13).
I don't see how you can have salvation and not be in the body (the church)

It also refers to it as "the beginning" (Acts 11v14-18), and Jesus described it as receiving the promise of the Father (Luke 24v29, Acts 1v4-8).

"he saved us, by the washing (greek loutrou: complete washing, baptism) of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3v5-6)

Starting at Pentecost we read:-
Ac:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (referring to the speaking in tongues)

As far as I'm concerned, the baptismin the Spirit = receiving the Holy Spirit = being born of the Spirit.

There are not different classes of Christian, the baptism in the Spirit is how Jesus saves.
Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

[AllTalkNoAction]

Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.You havn't explained why you quoted this scripture.

I hope you don't think that the Gentiles become Christians a different way or are a different type of Christian ?

[ivory]

AllTalkNoAction;
upon becoming saved, does God empower us ALL to serve?
Yes, but He does not give us all the same gifts. We all have the gifts HE chose to give, it is not what man whats to give.

[calidog]

Yes, but He does not give us all the same gifts. We all have the gifts HE chose to give, it is not what man whats to give.
all recieve gift(s) ?

[ivory]

You havn't explained why you quoted this scripture.

I hope you don't think that the Gentiles become Christians a different way or are a different type of Christian ?
"I hope you don't think that the Gentiles become Christians a different way or are a different type of Christian ?"

The Gentils?? God is no respector of persons. We are all the same Jews and Gentiles.

[ivory]

all recieve gift(s) ?
Yes, we all have a gift or two or three..... (lol)

[AllTalkNoAction]

"I hope you don't think that the Gentiles become Christians a different way or are a different type of Christian ?"

The Gentils?? God is no respector of persons. We are all the same Jews and Gentiles.Indeed, that's why the salvation message to, and experience of, the gentiles was the same as that of the Jews . . .all were told that they needed to receive the (baptism of the) Holy Spirit:-

Ac:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Peter knew they had received the same when they spoke in tongues (Acts 10v45) just like the Jews did, have you received the same ?

ivory, do you tell people they need the same for salvation ?

[ivory]

Indeed, that's why the salvation message to, and experience of, the gentiles was the same as that of the Jews . . .all were told that they needed to receive the (baptism of the) Holy Spirit:-

Yes, I do tell them that the message is the same, but there was the man on the cross next to Jesus that was not Spirit filled and made it in, so there are exceptions. God can do what ever He wishes.

[AllTalkNoAction]

Yes, I do tell them that the message is the same, but there was the man on the cross next to Jesus that was not Spirit filled and made it in, so there are exceptions. God can do what ever He wishes.Beware the thief’s gospel . .

Many people are taught to doubt the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of Luke's account of the conversation between Jesus and a crucified thief. Taken in isolation, one could agree, but of course we mustn't do that, otherwise you can make the bible say anything so it becomes useless !

People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that *both* of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus:-

“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.” (Matthew 27:43-44)

“Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”
(Mark 15:32-33)

. . . did they both *miss* the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom ? (meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand)

If the thief was sincere, it would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time, but what of the prophecy:-
Psalm 69:20-21: Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found NONE. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

So what does Jesus' reply in Luke mean ?
The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden. One might ask, would a thief be buried in an expensive tomb ?
Possibly, Isaiah prophesies:-
"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;" (53v9)
Maybe he had rich relations ?

But even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began. God is now calling people to follow Jesus in getting baptised and receive the anointing of His Spirit indwelling (whereupon a voice is heard, people speak in tongues).

To tell people they are "saved" without this, is certainly a thief's gospel ! There are no exceptions, God is well able to provide water and the strength to be lowered into it, and of course there is no reason why people can't receive the infilling of His Spirit if they want to.

[calidog]

"But even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began."


nope. Jesus died first.

[ivory]

A definition of Salvation
Yasha (yaw-shah) S# 3467 - to be delivered, save; to get help; to deliver; give victory; to preserve. It is worth noting that the name of our Saviour, Jesus, is derived from this root. (Mt. 1:21)
Soteria (so-tay-ree-ah) S# 4991 - Deliverance, preservation, salvation.
Promised

Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (KJV)

Here in Isaiah, we find that the Lord promised an "everlasting salvation" to Israel. Not only did he promise "everlasting salvation" to Israel, but also to you and I. For salvation is God's love action.

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (http://thewordsofeternallife.com/eternallife.html). (KJV)
God's Gift


Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)

God's salvation to us in truely a gift.

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace (http://thewordsofeternallife.com/Grace.html) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)

Not only is salvation a "gift of God", but we are to boast, to rejoice in it.
Possible for Everyone

This thing called "salvation: sounds "great, but is it possible for me? Yes, anyone can attain God's "salvation," and this is why:

Rom 10:13

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

Call upon the very nature (His name) of God, who is merciful (Mic 7:18-19) and he will "save" us. We don't obtain salvation so we can be free from sin and death only to live for ourselves. No, but that we now live for Christ. (Gal 2:20)

Titus 2:11-12

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

[AllTalkNoAction]

"But even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began."
nope. Jesus died first.You misunderstand, the New Covenant is God making sons by indwelling them in a new way. Jesus had to do more than die, he needed to be raised and present his blood before the the heavenly altar (Heb.13v10) before the Spirit could be given. This began at Pentecost, by which time the thief of the cross was long dead, so basing your or other people's salvation on his experience is error.

[calidog]

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
can I get a short pm to you?, no need to respond to it.

[mick24458]

I was saved into a Pentecostl church and experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, evidenced with tongues. I still believe that the experience was as it was in the book of Acts - a biblbical conversion. I still stand in that saving grace today.
The problem that I came across in the Pentecostal church that I attended was that they saw all other believers, who had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit - evidenced by tongues - as NOT SAVED. This is the obvious conclusion to the way that many Pentecostals think of the salvation experience but it does not hold with the entirity of scripture.
As I said, I still believe in the experience of the Baptism in the Holy Spirt and the gift of tongues but I cannot and will not deny the faith of all those who honestly believe that Christ died for their sins according to the scriptures and rose again on the third day, accroding to the scriptures.
Don't fall into the error of denying other's faith because they have not experinced the fulness of what God has for them. I know that we are all lacking, no matter what sort of Christian we are. :)

[ivory]

can I get a short pm to you?, no need to respond to it.
Yes, anytime!

[ivory]

I was saved into a Pentecostl church and experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, evidenced with tongues. I still believe that the experience was as it was in the book of Acts - a biblbical conversion. I still stand in that saving grace today.
The problem that I came across in the Pentecostal church that I attended was that they saw all other believers, who had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit - evidenced by tongues - as NOT SAVED. This is the obvious conclusion to the way that many Pentecostals think of the salvation experience but it does not hold with the entirity of scripture.
As I said, I still believe in the experience of the Baptism in the Holy Spirt and the gift of tongues but I cannot and will not deny the faith of all those who honestly believe that Christ died for their sins according to the scriptures and rose again on the third day, accroding to the scriptures.
Don't fall into the error of denying other's faith because they have not experinced the fulness of what God has for them. I know that we are all lacking, no matter what sort of Christian we are. :)
I also came from the Pentecostal faith. I was a pentecostal for 23 years, so I know all about the pentecostal faith. I came out 8 yrs. ago.

[calidog]

Yes, anytime!
you're home page is on the fritz. send me a blank pm and I"ll hit the reply

[ivory]

you're home page is on the fritz. send me a blank pm and I"ll hit the reply
send me a private message

[ivory]

send me a private message
I have been getting all my messages

[calidog]

I have been getting all my messages
the only way I know how to do it is to click your avatar to take me to your home page and click "pm". Your page is disabled.

[ivory]

the only way I know how to do it is to click your avatar to take me to your home page and click "pm". Your page is disabled.
OH, I'm new so I don't know much about this site

Thanks for telling me. I sent you a empty pm. did you get it?

[calidog]

OH, I'm new so I don't know much about this site

Thanks for telling me. I sent you a empty pm. did you get it?
got it.

[linssue55]

"Note: Pneuma - that which exists yet is invisible - we call it 'spirit'. Ghost was a word in the Classical Greek, but there is no word for Ghost in the Koi-ni Greek (common Greek) of the New Testament.}"

I also call Him Spirit, but there are many places in my bible (KJV) that uses the word Ghost, and many christians, depending on what faith their in uses the word Ghost.

Maybe I'm missing your point!

Ghost was used when the Lord had not yet come to earth. Spirit is the Lord has come, has resurrected, ascended, and sits at the right hand of the father.

[ivory]

Ghost was used when the Lord had not yet come to earth. Spirit is the Lord has come, has resurrected, ascended, and sits at the right hand of the father.
It is only the King James Version of the Bible which uses the term “Holy Ghost.” It occurs 90 times in the KJV Bible. The term “Holy Spirit” occurs 7 times in the KJV. All of the other translations (NIV, NKJV, NAS) use Holy Spirit exclusively. There is no clear reason as to why the KJV translators used Ghost in most places and then Spirit in a few.
The word Ghost was used a few times in the NT.

[linssue55]

I have a question, that was asked of me. I really did not know how to answer it. Maybe someone can help me with it.

WAS JESUS BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?:help:

Jesus has ALWAYS had the Holy Spirit. His water baptism was strictly ritual, that is why John the baptist KNEW he didn't want to baptise Jesus, for he knew HE was perfect, and ALREADY fillled and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration .....John 3: 1-12, Titus 3:5, Rom 8:16, 1 cor 2-14 (for humans only)

Indwelling of God the Father.....John 14: 23, Eph 4:6, John 14: 23(us at salvation)

Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.....1 Cor 6: 19-20, Math 3: 11, John 14: 7, Rom 5: 5, Rom 8:9, Gal 3:2 (us at salvation)

Adam and Eve were created perfect. Body, soul, and spirit. When they sinned, they became body and soul. Trichotomus is 3 parts, dichotomous is 2 parts.


Jesus is known to be the Second Adam, meaning the Lord was born perfect, and unable to sin, as Adam started out. The Lord was born tricotomous, body, soul, and spirit.


The Lord has ALWAYS had the spirit, and ALWAYS will.

Regeneration is God the Holy Spirit creating a human spirit. The human spirit was never connected with the womb. With the creation of the human spirit, God the Father imputes eternal life to that human spirit. This is regeneration, or being "born again."


Nichodemus thought you had to go back into your mother's womb to get a human spirit. But Jesus said, "No, it's a spiritual birth."


The soul must be distinguished from the human spirit.
1. Originally man was trichotomous, having a body, soul, and spirit, Gen 2:7.
2. After the fall, man is born dichotomous, having only a body and soul, 1 Cor 2:14; Jude 19.
3. The believer, however, is said to have a body, soul, and spirit, 1 Thes 5:23. The human spirit is regenerated by God the Holy Spirit at salvation. This is the second birth to us believers, "To be born AGAIN."

Trichotomy and Dichotomy.
In the original creation, mankind came from the hand of God as a trichotomous human being. The body came from the dust as biological life with no sin nature because man was created innocent and perfect. Perfect God can only create perfection. This was the only occasion when biological life was not related to the womb. That was because there was no old sin nature, no original sin as yet. The human spirit was created by God so that mankind could have fellowship with Him and understand things related to God, spiritual phenomena. The soul was created by God so that a rational creature could rule the world. Therefore, in the original creation, mankind was trichotomous and did not need salvation. However, this trichotomous human being did have free will, which was tested by God with one prohibition in the Garden.

The two trichotomous human beings in the Garden became dichotomous when they both committed an original sin. The woman committed an original sin of ignorance; that's why she became the childbearer. The man committed an original sin of cognizance; that's why he passes down the old sin nature to his children. When trichotomous man sinned, he became dichotomous, having a body and a soul with the sin nature.

On the Cross, Jesus Christ was judged for the sins of the world, so that anyone who believes in Him can become trichotomous through regeneration. Salvation is the work of God, the function of the grace of God, Eph 2:8-9, For by grace are you saved by faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

God the Father gave the world a trichotomous human being (the Lord Jesus Christ) as a sacrifice for sins. When John saw Jesus, he said, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."
Regeneration is God the Holy Spirit creating a human spirit. The human spirit was never connected with the womb. With the creation of the human spirit, God the Father imputes eternal life to that human spirit. This is regeneration, or being "born again."


Nichodemus thought you had to go back into your mother's womb to get a human spirit. But Jesus said, "No, it's a spiritual birth."

[ivory]

Jesus was conceived by Mary through the overshadowing of the Spirit. Before He entered upon His public ministry, Jesus was endowed with the Spirit as He descended on Him in the form of a dove at His baptism. Immediately after the baptism, the Spirit led Him into the wilderness. Throughout His entire ministry Jesus was led by the Spirit.

w

[ivory]

Why would you call water baptism a ritual?

[linssue55]

It is only the King James Version of the Bible which uses the term “Holy Ghost.” It occurs 90 times in the KJV Bible. The term “Holy Spirit” occurs 7 times in the KJV. All of the other translations (NIV, NKJV, NAS) use Holy Spirit exclusively. There is no clear reason as to why the KJV translators used Ghost in most places and then Spirit in a few.
The word Ghost was used a few times in the NT.
Many bibles, and bible interpretations do not use Isogogics, which must be done to be accurate in the time of historical events.


The AV uses the term "Holy Ghost" for "Holy Spirit" based on an obsolete usage of the word "ghost" (from Middle English and Anglo-Saxon, originally meaning "breath," "spirit", the German Geist). Thus it is understandable that God's creative word (Gen. 1:3) is closely akin to God's creative breath (Gen. 2:7). Both ideas are identified elsewhere with God's spirit. As an agent in creation, God's spirit is the life principle of both men and animals (Job 33:4; Gen. 6:17; 7:15).

The phrase "Holy Spirit" appears in two contexts in the OT, but is qualified both times as God's holy Spirit (Ps. 51:11; Isa. 63:10-11, 14), such that it is clear that God himself is the referent, not the Holy Spirit which is encountered in the NT.


The OT does not contain an idea of a semi-independent divine entity, the Holy Spirit.


The OT, especially the prophets, anticipates a time when God, who is holy (or "other than/separate from" men; Hos. 11:9) will (future tense) pour out his spirit on men (Joel 2:28; Isa. 11:1; Ezek. 36:14). who will themselves become holy. The Messiah/ Servant of God will be the one upon whom the spirit rests (Isa. 11:1; 42:1; 63:1), and will inaugurate the time of salvation (Ezek. 36:14; Jer. 31:31).

Jesus went up from the Jordan full of the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1), and after the temptation began his ministry "in the power of the Spirit" (Luke 4:14). Taking up the message of John the Baptist,

Jesus proclaimed the coming of the kingdom of God (Matt. 4:17; ), a coming marked by the presence of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:28.) as the sign of the messianic age of salvation (Luke 4:1; Acts 10:38; etc.).

Jesus understood the Holy Spirit as a personality. This comes out especially in John's Gospel, where the Spirit is called the "Paraclete," i.e., the Comforter (Counselor, Advocate). Jesus himself was the first Counselor (Paraclete, John 14:16), and he will send the disciples another Counselor........after he is gone, i.e., the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit (14:26; 15:26; 16:5).


The Holy Spirit will dwell in the believers (John 7:38; 14:17), and will guide the disciples into all truth (16:13), teaching them "all things" and bringing them "to remembrance of all that [Jesus] said" to them (14:26). The Holy Spirit will testify about Jesus (after Jesus ascends), as the disciples must also testify (John 15:26-27).

[ivory]

My opinion is,

I don't care which one a person uses, as long as they get the message.:clap:

[New_Wineskin]

His water baptism was strictly ritual, ...

As water baptism always is .

[ivory]

As water baptism always is .
And where is that found in scripture?

[linssue55]

Jesus was conceived by Mary through the overshadowing of the Spirit. Before He entered upon His public ministry, Jesus was endowed with the Spirit as He descended on Him in the form of a dove at His baptism. Immediately after the baptism, the Spirit led Him into the wilderness. Throughout His entire ministry Jesus was led by the Spirit.

wOf course He was.


The two trichotomous human beings in the Garden became dichotomous when they both committed an original sin. The woman committed an original sin of ignorance; that's why she became the childbearer. The man committed an original sin of cognizance; that's why he passes down the old sin nature to his children. When trichotomous man sinned, he became dichotomous, having a body and a soul with the sin nature. The body and the sin nature form biological life in the womb. The soul is given to mankind outside the womb when the fetus emerges at birth. Dichotomous mankind is born spiritually dead and therefore needs salvation. This Salvation is provided through the Hypostatic Union by which Jesus Christ, the God-man, who is undiminished (perfect)deity, becomes true humanity in the same person forever.


Through the virgin pregnancy and virgin birth, the biological life in the womb of Mary had no sin nature. This was possible because the Holy Spirit provided the twenty-three perfect male chromosomes instead of the usual sin nature provided from the male through copulation.


The virgin pregnancy was followed by the virgin birth, resulting in our Lord Jesus Christ being born trichotomous. Our Lord was born with biological life. To that biological life God the Father could do what He did for Adam: He could breathe into His nostrils the breath of lives. Jesus Christ was born as Adam was created, perfect and trichotomous, and He remained perfect and trichotomous, qualifying Him to go to the cross and become the one, perfect sacrifice for sin. 2Co 5:21, He who knew no sin [trichotomy] was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.


When we are carnal, we lose the "Filling of the Holy Spirit". When we use 1 John 1:9 this puts us back into the filling of the spirit, in fellowship once more. Jesus has NEVER sinned, He is always filled with the spirit from the moment He was born (and before in His diety). To say that the Lord did not have the filling of the spirit UNTIL the dove, is in essence saying that the Lord was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP up to that point, which we know is NOT true, for NOT to have the filling, means we are quenching, and grieving the spirit, and are in carnality.

The dove is an analogy/medaphore to the filling of the Holy Spirit to believers, and after penecost (not all believers got it all at once----NOW all believers do) , that all believers will get the filling of the spirit in our body through salvation.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit.....Rom 8: 1-2, Rom 8: 38-39, 1 Cor 15:2, 1 Cor 12:13, John 5: 11-12

[ivory]

What is the meaning of Spiritual Baptism?

[linssue55]

Why would you call water baptism a ritual?
The Doctrine of "Water Baptism "

Baptism is the means by which something or someone is identified with something or someone else. With this identification, the nature or character of the baptized person or thing is changed.


To avoid any confusion or distortion, we need to look at how this ceremonial practice came into being. The English word baptize, comes to us from the Greek word baptizo, which means to dip or immerse. This word was used by ancient Greek poets, dramatists and historians to denote the identification of one object with another, so that the first object is changed. For example, in the fourth century B.C., Xenophen describes how new recruits in the Spartan army dipped their spears into pig's blood before going into battle. By identifying the spears with blood, the nature of the spear was changed from that of a hunter to the spear of a warrior. In some of the ancient secret fraternities, the rite of passage signifying identification with that fraternity was immersion or baptism in blood. In the fifth century B.C., Euripides used the word baptizo to describe a sinking ship. As it sinks, the character or nature of the ship is changed and it becomes identified with the water.


There are seven baptisms mentioned in the Bible, four being real identifications with someone or something, and three being rituals with a symbolic meaning. The four real baptisms are dry, indicating that no water is used. They are:


1. Baptism with Moses. The children of Israel were identified with Moses and the cloud [a manifestation of the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ] as they passed through the Red Sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


2. Baptism with the Cross or Cup. The Lord Jesus Christ is identified with the cross, Matthew 20:22, But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able." [See baptism of Jesus Christ below.]


3. Baptism of Fire. This is the baptism of judgment for those who do not believe in the salvation work of Christ on the cross, Luke 3:16, John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.


4. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. God the Holy Spirit administers this baptism or identification at the moment anyone believes in the substitutionary spiritual death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Holy Spirit enters the believer into union with Jesus Christ and places the believer positionally at the right hand of God the Father. This position is the basis of having a relationship with God forever. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an emotional experience; nor is it speaking in tongues. In salvation, our volition is involved only in our decision to accept Christ as Savior.


The three ritual baptisms are those where water is used in a symbolic way to teach a doctrinal lesson or principle. Identification, however, is still the issue. The immersion and the water are real, but the symbolic meaning of the water and what it represents varies depending on the doctrine being taught. The three ritual baptisms are:


1. Baptism by John the Baptist. The water in the Jordan River was symbolic, in that it was a representation of the Kingdom of God about which John preached. The people that came to John, as he stood in the water, entered the water as unbelievers, unsaved and with no hope. Being immersed in the water simply represented being accepted into the Kingdom of God through salvation. John was preaching repentance, which means the changing of one's mind about Christ. Those baptized were being identified with God's kingdom, and they were saying in effect, I have trusted in Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. The water itself was used merely as an illustration for those being newly identified with the Kingdom of God. By using their free will to accept Christ as personal Savior, they came out of the water as believers in the salvation work of the cross, Matthew 3:6, 3:11, And they were being baptized [I] by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins. "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance [change of mind toward Christ], but He [Jesus Christ] Who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


2. Baptism of Jesus. Again, water was used to illustrate a doctrine that was to be learned. What made this baptism unique is that Jesus Christ was not a sinner. Therefore, the water was symbolic not of salvation and the kingdom of God, but rather of God the Father's will. Jesus Christ identified Himself with the Father's will by His execution of Phase One - going to the cross and providing our so great salvation, Matthew 3:13-17, Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan [coming] to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit [I] at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him. After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John the Baptist] saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove [and] lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased."


Jesus' immersion into the water symbolized Our Lord's obedience to the Father's plan for His first advent, a plan that no one but the impeccable Lord Jesus Christ could execute. No matter what certain religious sects may teach, we as believers cannot 'follow the Lord in baptism'.


3. Baptism of the Believer in the Church-age. As the writers of New Testament Scripture were inspired, through the filling of the Holy Spirit, to write down God's exact and direct will for mankind [mystery doctrine of the Church-age], Bible doctrine was also taught verbally all over the ancient world between 30 A.D. and 96 A.D. The Bible at that time had not yet been completed, so pastor-teachers taught from either the doctrines that they had heard verbally, or from written doctrines they had received in the form of a letter. These pastor-teachers found out that in the art of teaching, one must communicate what one knows in a manner understandable to those being taught. This method of communication requires illustrations and examples.


(cont)

[linssue55]

Water was found to be a great illustration in identifying and understanding a point of doctrine. The Lord Jesus Christ understood this principle when He spoke to His disciples, Matthew 28:18-19, And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them [teaching believers by illustration and identification] in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.


The Lord instructed His disciples to go out into the world and spread the good news of salvation, and then teach the doctrines related to salvation to these new believers by using water as an analogy or illustration. This is shown in Acts 8:26-39, But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a desert [road].) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading was this: "He was led as a sheep to slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so He does not open His mouth. In humiliation, His judgment was taken away; who will relate His generation? For His life is removed from the earth."

The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please [tell me], of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized [taught by illustration and identification] him [with the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ]. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.


Water baptism was an illustration, a teaching aide, a picture of the real baptism of the Holy Spirit, which had taken place at the precise moment the Ethiopian eunuch believed in the substitutionary salvation work of Jesus Christ on the cross. It was not, and is not, a requirement for salvation.

Water was used, prior to the canon of Scripture being complete, to illustrate the doctrine of being identified with Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. The Ethiopian eunuch being baptized was already a believer. He had already accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, and he was already saved. Philip was teaching a doctrinal principle to a believer, not to an unbeliever. An unbeliever cannot understand spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2:14, But a natural man [unbeliever] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


When the Ethiopian eunuch entered the water, Philip was teaching the fact that he had been identified with Jesus Christ in His death and that he was rejecting human good. Each and every sin of the human race was judged on the cross. So, any and all human effort and good works used by man in an attempt to achieve salvation or spirituality is rejected by God. There is only one way into the kingdom of God, John 14:6, Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."


No work or effort on the part of mankind to achieve salvation has ever been, or will ever be, part of the predesigned plan of God, Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


God can only accept what is His, Matthew 22:21, Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."


God's perfect righteousness can only accept what is perfect, and the best works of mankind, no matter how perfect we may think they are, are nothing but filthy rags in the sight of God, Isaiah 64:6, For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment


Part of baptism, or identification with the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, is that the believer has already been taught and understands that any and all human good is rejected and dead, not only as a way to salvation but also as a means of achieving spirituality. This is also known as retroactive positional truth, which is victory over human good or death to self.
As the Ethiopian came up out of the water, he was baptized or identified with the air, which represented the resurrection, ascension and session of Jesus Christ as He is seated at the right hand of God the Father. The Ethiopian was taught that the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation put him positionally with the Lord Jesus Christ at the right hand of the Father. This is known as current positional truth.

From this position, the believer realizes that security in his relationship with the one and only true God will last forever, John 10:28-29, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand."
Being positionally with the Lord Jesus Christ, the Ethiopian eunuch had the basis for being filled with the Holy Spirit and subsequently producing Divine good from inside the predesigned plan of God. Divine good is the fruit that is automatically produced by the believer who is thinking Bible doctrine and applying it to his life within God's predesigned plan.
In conclusion, the purpose of water baptism was to teach by illustration the following doctrines:


a. The believer is identified with Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection;

b. The believer has victory over, and rejects, human good;

c. The believer is positionally seated with Jesus Christ at the right hand of God the Father; and

d. The believer must have a clear understanding of how to produce Divine good from within the predesigned plan of God.

Water baptism was never intended to be a means of salvation. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, with nothing added to it. Nor was water baptism intended to be a means of spirituality. It was never anything more than a teaching aide - a way of illustrating the doctrines related to being identified with the death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

[ivory]

WOW! To much for me to read, if you want me to read this you must shorten it and put in in simple form for us babies in Christ to understand.

[linssue55]

WOW! To much for me to read, if you want me to read this you must shorten it and put in in simple form for us babies in Christ to understand.


This is the word of God, and is very easy to understand. God has a system, God has a plan. Knowing and learning about God is not easy, one must be dedicated. He gives us time on this earth to learn His word, and we OWE Him to give some of this time back to Him through LEARNing His word, and what it means.

I have had thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of hours reading and studying the word. We owe God this, for He is the only reason we are here, to worship Him, and to find out ALL we can about His word.

"We must decrease, He must Increase.", and the ONLY way is to totally dedicated ourselves is to learn, and not to be luke warm. :)

[Schroeder]

What is the meaning of Spiritual Baptism? i think you need to understand the technical part of salvation or HOW you get saved(not the gospel believing part) The actuall way it works. God said that you MUST shed blood for forgiveness of sins(heb 9:22) But it says also that these rituals of animals sacrifices did not please God (heb 10:8) because they were not pure or perfect. therefore Christ took its place which is why it says the old covenant Law was fulfilled. There was no need of a sacrifice anymore or any rite at all for that matter because the reguirment had been meet ONCE FOR ALL.(heb 7:18-28).

The point that I am getting to is HOW do we get this blood on our sins or how do we aguire this forgiveness of sins into our life. Scripture says we must BELIEVE on His Son, that is our work reguired to abtain this forgiveness and salvation. (john 6:29) But again belief alone doesnt save as we are told. It must be a true belief God sees in our hearts. as happened in Acts 10 and shown in acts 15:8. He saw there hearts and GAVE them the SPirit. They did NO work but the work mentioned in john 6:29. SO at this point the SPirit is in us, Now i would say this is the baptism of the holy SPirit mentioned by JTB, He will baptize with the holy SPirit. So how does this baptism provide us with forgiveness. BECAUSE this SPirit is CHRIST in us. (Heb 9:14) (Titus 3:5) (2 cor 3:17)(gal. 5:22-25)

NOw to sum it all up read Rom 8:1-10. verse 9 "......And if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he does not belong to Christ. The SPirit in us is the reenactment of Christ and his sacrifice. that whioch many say the water baptism does or shows is what the SPirit baptism in us ACTUALLY does do. which is HOW we receive the forgiveness of our sins and are saved. (rom 6:1-11, 8:11-14) The SPirit of christ in us leads us away from our sinful nature to become like Christ. to become like Christ is to let his spirit rule over our entire life. a life long process and not the easiest either. BUT thak=nk God for him because i am not who i used to be but am being transformed(slower then he likes i am sure) into the likeness of his son.

[ivory]

i think you need to understand the technical part of salvation or HOW you get saved(not the gospel believing part) The actuall way it works. God said that you MUST shed blood for forgiveness of sins(heb 9:22) But it says also that these rituals of animals sacrifices did not please God (heb 10:8) because they were not pure or perfect. therefore Christ took its place which is why it says the old covenant Law was fulfilled. There was no need of a sacrifice anymore or any rite at all for that matter because the reguirment had been meet ONCE FOR ALL.(heb 7:18-28).

The point that I am getting to is HOW do we get this blood on our sins or how do we aguire this forgiveness of sins into our life. Scripture says we must BELIEVE on His Son, that is our work reguired to abtain this forgiveness and salvation. (john 6:29) But again belief alone doesnt save as we are told. It must be a true belief God sees in our hearts. as happened in Acts 10 and shown in acts 15:8. He saw there hearts and GAVE them the SPirit. They did NO work but the work mentioned in john 6:29. SO at this point the SPirit is in us, Now i would say this is the baptism of the holy SPirit mentioned by JTB, He will baptize with the holy SPirit. So how does this baptism provide us with forgiveness. BECAUSE this SPirit is CHRIST in us. (Heb 9:14) (Titus 3:5) (2 cor 3:17)(gal. 5:22-25)

NOw to sum it all up read Rom 8:1-10. verse 9 "......And if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he does not belong to Christ. The SPirit in us is the reenactment of Christ and his sacrifice. that whioch many say the water baptism does or shows is what the SPirit baptism in us ACTUALLY does do. which is HOW we receive the forgiveness of our sins and are saved. (rom 6:1-11, 8:11-14) The SPirit of christ in us leads us away from our sinful nature to become like Christ. to become like Christ is to let his spirit rule over our entire life. a life long process and not the easiest either. BUT thak=nk God for him because i am not who i used to be but am being transformed(slower then he likes i am sure) into the likeness of his son.
I think we need to look at ALL parts

[Schroeder]

Can a person receive eternal life in heaven without the baptism in the Holy Spirit? so no you cant. to be "immersed" in the holy spirit is to receive it. that is why he says in gal 27 that all who are baptized have CLOLTHED yourself with Christ. goes with eph. 4:22-24, rom 13:14.

[ivory]

Salvation is a free gift, it works by faith only not by any thing we do

[ivory]

so no you cant. to be "immersed" in the holy spirit is to receive it. that is why he says in gal 27 that all who are baptized have CLOLTHED yourself with Christ. goes with eph. 4:22-24, rom 13:14.
I beleive most of us get the baptisms confused, there are three, Water, Spirit, fire. When the scripture talk about baptism we need to know which baptism it is refering to.

[Schroeder]

I think we need to look at ALL parts not sure what you mean?

[Schroeder]

I beleive most of us get the baptisms confused, there are three, Water, Spirit, fire. When the scripture talk about baptism we need to know which baptism it is refering to. True very true. So what baptism are you speaking of. You seem to be splitting up the SPirit baptism into two as well. Or do you say it water baptism saves the spirit baptism helps you become like christ or help us on our journey guide us along. and this indwelling is for those who only ask for it to acguire some extra gifts along the way. What baptism is gal 3:27 speaking of.

[ivory]

not sure what you mean?
We must never exclude the gospel believing part

[ivory]

True very true. So what baptism are you speaking of. You seem to be splitting up the SPirit baptism into two as well. Or do you say it water baptism saves the spirit baptism helps you become like christ or help us on our journey guide us along. and this indwelling is for those who only ask for it to acguire some extra gifts along the way. What baptism is gal 3:27 speaking of.
I know, I get them confused myself that's why I asked for HELP (LOL) but I am talking about Spiritual baptism

[Schroeder]

We must never exclude the gospel believing part if you read it correctly you would now i said this to get to what i was trying to make a point of. of course it starts with hearing the gospel, I just was not speakin gof this part. maybe i did not state it correctly.

[Schroeder]

I know, I get them confused myself that's why I asked for HELP (LOL) but I am talking about Spiritual baptism i know it just seems you are splitting this baptism up into two parts. OR are makeing the spirit baptism an extra AFTER salvation. OR not understanding what the baptism of the SPirit actually DOES.

[Schroeder]

i think you need to understand the technical part of salvation or HOW you get saved(not the gospel believing part) The actuall way it works. God said that you MUST shed blood for forgiveness of sins(heb 9:22) But it says also that these rituals of animals sacrifices did not please God (heb 10:8) because they were not pure or perfect. therefore Christ took its place which is why it says the old covenant Law was fulfilled. There was no need of a sacrifice anymore or any rite at all for that matter because the reguirment had been meet ONCE FOR ALL.(heb 7:18-28).

The point that I am getting to is HOW do we get this blood on our sins or how do we aguire this forgiveness of sins into our life. Scripture says we must BELIEVE on His Son, that is our work reguired to abtain this forgiveness and salvation. (john 6:29) But again belief alone doesnt save as we are told. It must be a true belief God sees in our hearts. as happened in Acts 10 and shown in acts 15:8. He saw there hearts and GAVE them the SPirit. They did NO work but the work mentioned in john 6:29. SO at this point the SPirit is in us, Now i would say this is the baptism of the holy SPirit mentioned by JTB, He will baptize with the holy SPirit. So how does this baptism provide us with forgiveness. BECAUSE this SPirit is CHRIST in us. (Heb 9:14) (Titus 3:5) (2 cor 3:17)(gal. 5:22-25)

NOw to sum it all up read Rom 8:1-10. verse 9 "......And if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he does not belong to Christ. The SPirit in us is the reenactment of Christ and his sacrifice. that whioch many say the water baptism does or shows is what the SPirit baptism in us ACTUALLY does do. which is HOW we receive the forgiveness of our sins and are saved. (rom 6:1-11, 8:11-14) The SPirit of christ in us leads us away from our sinful nature to become like Christ. to become like Christ is to let his spirit rule over our entire life. a life long process and not the easiest either. BUT thak=nk God for him because i am not who i used to be but am being transformed(slower then he likes i am sure) into the likeness of his son. this is what i spoke of in what the holy Spirit is and or does.

[ivory]

this is what i spoke of in what the holy Spirit is and or does.
Thank you, I agree!
And to make one more point, It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the ability to believe by faith.

[jmacvols]

Baptism In The Holy Spirit







I In deed baptize you with water unto repentance,
but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
( Matt 3:11 )

I believe we can not be gradually baptized in the Holy Ghost, just as we cannot be gradually baptized in water. We can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one
day that filling WILL spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost. Many believers don't ask for this experience because they think they
have receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. This is in a sense true, that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it.
" How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? ( Luke 11:13 )


What do you think?


Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a prophesy of Joel, Joel 2:28--God would 'pour out my Spirit upon "all flesh". At the time of Joel one was either a Jew or non-Jew so 'all flesh' was composed of Jew and Gentile. In Acts 2 the Jewish apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and this began the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy as proven by Peter Acts 2:16. In Acts 10 the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and in Acts 11 this causes Peter to think back to the beginning (Pentecost) when the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, Acts 11:15,16. Peter links this event to Acts 2. So here we have Jew and Gentile, that is, 'all flesh' being baptized with the Holy Spirit and Joel's prophecy being fulfilled and hence baptism with the Holy Spirit is obsolete. The one baptism of Eph 4:5 is water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit was promised only to the apostles, Acts 1:1-5.

As for Matt 3:11, we can see that John's audience was a mixed audience made up of believer's and non-believers, see v7. Lk 7:30 the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God by rejecting John's baptism. Mt 3:7-10 was directed mainly at the unbelievers, the Pharisees. So in v11 when John says 'I baptize you with water", there was those in his audience who were not baptized with water, the Pharisees. So the pronoun 'you' here is not referring to everyone John was speaking to, it is being used in a generic, non-inclusive, limited sense. John then says Jesus will baptize "you" with spirit and with fire. Again this "you", as the first "you", is used in a generic, non, inclusive, limited sense. Therefore baptism with the Holy Spirit is not universally available, and not universally promised. (Promised to apostles only, Acts 1:1-5) Note also that the saved will not be baptized with fire. It is important to note that the pronoun "you" is being used in a generic, impersonal sense.

[ivory]

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a prophesy of Joel, Joel 2:28--God would 'pour out my Spirit upon "all flesh". At the time of Joel one was either a Jew or non-Jew so 'all flesh' was composed of Jew and Gentile. In Acts 2 the Jewish apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and this began the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy as proven by Peter Acts 2:16. In Acts 10 the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and in Acts 11 this causes Peter to think back to the beginning (Pentecost) when the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, Acts 11:15,16. Peter links this event to Acts 2. So here we have Jew and Gentile, that is, 'all flesh' being baptized with the Holy Spirit and Joel's prophecy being fulfilled and hence baptism with the Holy Spirit is obsolete. The one baptism of Eph 4:5 is water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit was promised only to the apostles, Acts 1:1-5.

As for Matt 3:11, we can see that John's audience was a mixed audience made up of believer's and non-believers, see v7. Lk 7:30 the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God by rejecting John's baptism. Mt 3:7-10 was directed mainly at the unbelievers, the Pharisees. So in v11 when John says 'I baptize you with water", there was those in his audience who were not baptized with water, the Pharisees. So the pronoun 'you' here is not referring to everyone John was speaking to, it is being used in a generic, non-inclusive, limited sense. John then says Jesus will baptize "you" with spirit and with fire. Again this "you", as the first "you", is used in a generic, non, inclusive, limited sense. Therefore baptism with the Holy Spirit is not universally available, and not universally promised. (Promised to apostles only, Acts 1:1-5) Note also that the saved will not be baptized with fire. It is important to note that the pronoun "you" is being used in a generic, impersonal sense.
There are many who thinks there were two pentecosts. What do you think?

[jmacvols]

There are many who thinks there were two pentecosts. What do you think?
Never heard of such an idea. There was only one day of pentecost where the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and the church began. I know of one beginning not of two beginnings.

[ivory]

Never heard of such an idea. There was only one day of pentecost where the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and the church began. I know of one beginning not of two beginnings.
I agree! Thanks!

[AllTalkNoAction]

I agree! Thanks!Yet many today preach that you begin to be a member of God's one church a different way today !

The faithful stick to the need for the baptism in the Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues).

[ivory]

Yet many today preach that you begin to be a member of God's one church a different way today !

The faithful stick to the need for the baptism in the Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues).
"The faithful stick to the need for the baptism in the Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues)."


I disagree!!

[Schroeder]

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a prophesy of Joel, Joel 2:28--God would 'pour out my Spirit upon "all flesh". At the time of Joel one was either a Jew or non-Jew so 'all flesh' was composed of Jew and Gentile. In Acts 2 the Jewish apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and this began the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy as proven by Peter Acts 2:16. In Acts 10 the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and in Acts 11 this causes Peter to think back to the beginning (Pentecost) when the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, Acts 11:15,16. Peter links this event to Acts 2. So here we have Jew and Gentile, that is, 'all flesh' being baptized with the Holy Spirit and Joel's prophecy being fulfilled and hence baptism with the Holy Spirit is obsolete. The one baptism of Eph 4:5 is water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit was promised only to the apostles, Acts 1:1-5.

As for Matt 3:11, we can see that John's audience was a mixed audience made up of believer's and non-believers, see v7. Lk 7:30 the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God by rejecting John's baptism. Mt 3:7-10 was directed mainly at the unbelievers, the Pharisees. So in v11 when John says 'I baptize you with water", there was those in his audience who were not baptized with water, the Pharisees. So the pronoun 'you' here is not referring to everyone John was speaking to, it is being used in a generic, non-inclusive, limited sense. John then says Jesus will baptize "you" with spirit and with fire. Again this "you", as the first "you", is used in a generic, non, inclusive, limited sense. Therefore baptism with the Holy Spirit is not universally available, and not universally promised. (Promised to apostles only, Acts 1:1-5) Note also that the saved will not be baptized with fire. It is important to note that the pronoun "you" is being used in a generic, impersonal sense. this is cherry pickying scripture. First your insistance that "ALL" is just two events is WEAK and doesnt even make since. "ALL" means ALL people not a few to represent ALL people. he did not baptize all jews when he baptized the apostles and all gentiles when he baptized those in acts 10. And to say that all flesh was gentiles and jews is abviouse and you should know that by jesuses time and onward we know there was more then just jew and gentile SO ALL flesh would be exactly that ALL FLESH NOT just two events in the future. WEAK very WEAK. and for the whole "YOU" in i baptize "you" in water thing is made up as well. Or are you saying he is speaking only to the pharisees as you hint saying it was limited non inclusive sense. SO who is he saying this too. It could not be to the pharisees because as you say they did not get baptized by the SPirit. YOu just insist this because you know scripture isa rather clear that water baptism is not for forgiveness of sins or for salvation it is NOT the ONE baptism of eph 4.

[jmacvols]

this is cherry pickying scripture.

I gave scriptures to back up what I said... you gave just your sophistry.


First your insistance that "ALL" is just two events is WEAK and doesnt even make since. "ALL" means ALL people not a few to represent ALL people. he did not baptize all jews when he baptized the apostles and all gentiles when he baptized those in acts 10. And to say that all flesh was gentiles and jews is abviouse and you should know that by jesuses time and onward we know there was more then just jew and gentile SO ALL flesh would be exactly that ALL FLESH NOT just two events in the future. WEAK very WEAK.


Joel said "all flesh". This does not include the flesh of animals or plants, so the word 'all' here is limited in scope. Only the apostles were ever promised baptism with the Holy Spirit, (Acts 1:1-5), you or no one else ever had this promise made to them. Since there is not one single verse that promises this baptism to you, your argument fails here.
'Everyone', 'all people', 'all flesh' fell into one of two groups: Jew or Gentile, therefore Jew and Gentile made up everyone, all people, all flesh, so when the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy Spirit, then Joel's prophecy of all flesh (Jew and Gentile) had been fulfilled. Peter proves that the apostles being baptized with the Holy Spirit was part of the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, Acts 2:16. And Peter ties the Gentiles being baptized with the Holy Spirit with the Apostles being baptized with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (beginning), Acts 11:15-16. Other than Acts 2 and 10, the NT gives no record/evidence of anyone else ever receiving a baptism with the Holy Ghost. Where does the bible say those eternally lost or animals' flesh will be baptized with the Holy Spirit?
Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass from the law till all be fulfilled, Mt 5:18>>Lk 24:44. The OT law has been fufilled, which means Joel's prophecy about baptism with the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled, so that baptism is now obsolete. If it has not been fulfilled yet, then every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in place and the man known as Jesus was not the Messiah.



and for the whole "YOU" in i baptize "you" in water thing is made up as well. Or are you saying he is speaking only to the pharisees as you hint saying it was limited non inclusive sense. SO who is he saying this too. It could not be to the pharisees because as you say they did not get baptized by the SPirit. YOu just insist this because you know scripture isa rather clear that water baptism is not for forgiveness of sins or for salvation it is NOT the ONE baptism of eph 4.

I did not "make up" Matt 3 as you accuse me, it stands for itself. Anyone can read Mt 3:1-11 for themselves and see that John's audience had unbelievers (those that rejected John's baptism) in attendance. So when John says "I baptize 'you' with water, this obviously did not include those unbeliever's in his audience (Pharisees). John said Jesus would baptize "you" with the Holy Ghost and fire. If the pronoun "you" includes everyone (universal), then not only would the unbeliever's in John's audience be baptized with the Holy Spirit, but all of John's audience would be baptized with fire, they all will be lost, vs 10 & 12, all (universally) will be cast into the fire. It is obvious that both pronouns "you" in Matt 3:11 are used in a generic, limited sense, not universal. Everyone will not be baptized with fire, just as everyone will not be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Again, Acts 1:1-5 only the apostles were ever promised to be baptized with the Holy Ghost, NO ONE ELSE, including you, never received this promise.

[Schroeder]

I gave scriptures to back up what I said... you gave just your sophistry. you misqouted every verse you gave, or misinterpreted them. so you did give your own interpretation of them by cherry picking them out of context and picking a word here or there and twisting it into your thinking.





Joel said "all flesh". This does not include the flesh of animals or plants, so the word 'all' here is limited in scope. Only the apostles were ever promised baptism with the Holy Spirit, (Acts 1:1-5), you or no one else ever had this promise made to them. Since there is not one single verse that promises this baptism to you, your argument fails here. JTB said he who comes after me will baptize wqith the holy spirit. He said this to the general audiance. 1 cor 12:13 says we ALL were BAPTIZED by the SPirit. This verse alone proves you wrong.

'Everyone', 'all people', 'all flesh' fell into one of two groups: Jew or Gentile, therefore Jew and Gentile made up everyone, all people, all flesh, so when the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy Spirit, then Joel's prophecy of all flesh (Jew and Gentile) had been fulfilled. Peter proves that the apostles being baptized with the Holy Spirit was part of the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, Acts 2:16. And Peter ties the Gentiles being baptized with the Holy Spirit with the Apostles being baptized with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (beginning), Acts 11:15-16. Other than Acts 2 and 10, the NT gives no record/evidence of anyone else ever receiving a baptism with the Holy Ghost. Where does the bible say those eternally lost or animals' flesh will be baptized with the Holy Spirit?
YES your right it covers jew and gentile which is ALL people on earth NOT just the apostles and those in acts 10. HOW is these FEW ALL people. you said yourself ALL FLESH. this would to me say everyone not just the few you keep saying. this doesnt seem to be getting through to you.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass from the law till all be fulfilled, Mt 5:18>>Lk 24:44. The OT law has been fufilled, which means Joel's prophecy about baptism with the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled, so that baptism is now obsolete. If it has not been fulfilled yet, then every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in place and the man known as Jesus was not the Messiah.
SORRY but prophecy is not LAW. what was fullfilled was Jesus dieing on the cross. this act fullfilled the LAW. the LAW told us what was reguired for forgiveness of sins. you need to reread somethings.




I did not "make up" Matt 3 as you accuse me, it stands for itself. Anyone can read Mt 3:1-11 for themselves and see that John's audience had unbelievers (those that rejected John's baptism) in attendance. So when John says "I baptize 'you' with water, this obviously did not include those unbeliever's in his audience (Pharisees). John said Jesus would baptize "you" with the Holy Ghost and fire. If the pronoun "you" includes everyone (universal), then not only would the unbeliever's in John's audience be baptized with the Holy Spirit, but all of John's audience would be baptized with fire, they all will be lost, vs 10 & 12, all (universally) will be cast into the fire. It is obvious that both pronouns "you" in Matt 3:11 are used in a generic, limited sense, not universal. Everyone will not be baptized with fire, just as everyone will not be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Again, Acts 1:1-5 only the apostles were ever promised to be baptized with the Holy Ghost, NO ONE ELSE, including you, never received this promise. It does but it isnt just speaking to them in private. it is a open remark to them and everyone else to hear. And you did not answer the gguestion of WHO was this remark to. And yes all will be either baptized by the SPirit into the body as 1 Cor. 12:13 says or judged by fire. and scripture also uses the word fire to judge believers as well. when it is used to show what things in your life are wheat and burnable and which are gold. And as i asked if the "YOU" is not for the other but to the pharisees when will they be baptized by the SPirit. SEE you just cherry pick a verse then cherry pick a few words out and make up your own idea.

[jmacvols]

you misqouted every verse you gave, or misinterpreted them. so you did give your own interpretation of them by cherry picking them out of context and picking a word here or there and twisting it into your thinking.
JTB said he who comes after me will baptize wqith the holy spirit. He said this to the general audiance. 1 cor 12:13 says we ALL were BAPTIZED by the SPirit. This verse alone proves you wrong.
YES your right it covers jew and gentile which is ALL people on earth NOT just the apostles and those in acts 10. HOW is these FEW ALL people. you said yourself ALL FLESH. this would to me say everyone not just the few you keep saying. this doesnt seem to be getting through to you.

Can you not see that John's audience had nonbelievers (Pharisees) in it, those that rejected his baptism?
When John said to his audience "I baptize you with water" it is obvious everyone in his audience was not baptized with water, therefore the pronoun "you" is not universal in scope. When John said Jesus would baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire, the 'you' here is also not universal. If 'you' were unversal, then all of John's audience, including the unbelievers, would not only be be baptized with the Holy Ghost, they all would also be baptized with fire, all his audience would be lost. You claim (with no proof) to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, so when will you be baptized with fire?
Have you read Acts 1:1-5? If so you will see that baptism with the Holy SPirit was promised only to the apostles, not you! 1 Cor 12:13 does not change or contradict Acts 1:1-5. You continue to throw 1 COr 12:13 out there but you never give proof that it says what you think it does. THe verse say by one Spirit not with one Spirit. THe Spirit baptizes just as CHrist did by giving His authority, John 4:1,2. Jesus baptized not, He baptized by giving His authority. THe Holy Spirit gives His authority to the disciples to baptize. In 1 Cor 1:14,16, Paul baptized some of the Corinthians and Paul could only adiminister water baptism. You continue to violate Eph 4:5 by trying to make two baptisms in effect today.
Joel said Gods Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh, he did not say the Spirit would be poured out upon each and every single Jew and Gentile. One more time, Jew and Gentile made up all flesh, so when the Jew and Gentile in Acts 2 and 10 were baptized with the Holy Spirit, then all flesh, Jew and Gentile, fulfilled Joel's prophecy.



SORRY but prophecy is not LAW. what was fullfilled was Jesus dieing on the cross. this act fullfilled the LAW. the LAW told us what was reguired for forgiveness of sins. you need to reread somethings.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, Mt 5:17,18. If Joel's prophesies are not fulfilled then Jesus was not the Messiah. As John said, Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost, and He did such in Acts 2 and 10, thus fulfilling Joel's prophecy.




It does but it isnt just speaking to them in private. it is a open remark to them and everyone else to hear. And you did not answer the gguestion of WHO was this remark to. And yes all will be either baptized by the SPirit into the body as 1 Cor. 12:13 says or judged by fire. and scripture also uses the word fire to judge believers as well. when it is used to show what things in your life are wheat and burnable and which are gold. And as i asked if the "YOU" is not for the other but to the pharisees when will they be baptized by the SPirit. SEE you just cherry pick a verse then cherry pick a few words out and make up your own idea.

One more time, can you not see that Johns audience had nonbelievers in it?

So when John said to his audience "I baptize you with water', (an open remark to everyone) this could not include the unbelievers, so "you" here is not universal. The second "you" is not universal either, for only the Apostles were promised to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. You can never change Acts 1:1-5, you contradict it, but you can never change it. John also said, (in an open remark to everyone), they would be baptized with fire. John said and fire not or fire, and you accuse me of misrepresenting. So when will you be baptized with fire?

[gratefulgrace]

You misunderstand, the New Covenant is God making sons by indwelling them in a new way. Jesus had to do more than die, he needed to be raised and present his blood before the the heavenly altar (Heb.13v10) before the Spirit could be given. This began at Pentecost, by which time the thief of the cross was long dead, so basing your or other people's salvation on his experience is error.
I disagree with your statements above. Where do you get the idea that Jesus had to take his shed blood to some heavenly alter and how did he do that by the way as it was spilled on the ground at Calvary. The temple veil was torn in two when Jesus died not when he was raised. He said it is finished. He descendend to take the keys of death from Satan. He did not have to take his blood anywhere for it to be efficatious for salvation. The resurrection is just the proof that what Jesus accomplished ON THE CROSS was enough. gg

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . Where do you get the idea that Jesus had to take his shed blood to some heavenly alter and how did he do that by the way as it was spilled on the ground at Calvary. . .. He did not have to take his blood anywhere for it to be efficatious for salvation. The resurrection is just the proof that what Jesus accomplished ON THE CROSS was enough. ggWhen Jesus said "it is finished" he was only referring to his earthly mission to die for our sin as the Lamb of God. John the baptist also saidf that just as he came to baptise in water so Jesus would baptise in the Holy Spirit and fire. Yet Jesus did not even begin doing this until he returned to the Father.

This spiritual washing is how Jesus saves.
The Old Testament serves as a pattern that must be fulfilled, you are ignoring it (did you read the Hebrews 13:10 scripture ?)
They wouldn't just kill a lamb, they would apply the blood to the vessels and the priests would eat it after it was roasted.

Jesus explained:-
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you . . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
(John 6v53, 63)

And be aware, "the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7v39)

[ivory]

When Jesus said "it is finished" he was only referring to his earthly mission to die for our sin as the Lamb of God. John the baptist also saidf that just as he came to baptise in water so Jesus would baptise in the Holy Spirit and fire. Yet Jesus did not even begin doing this until he returned to the Father.

This spiritual washing is how Jesus saves.
The Old Testament serves as a pattern that must be fulfilled, you are ignoring it (did you read the Hebrews 13:10 scripture ?)
They wouldn't just kill a lamb, they would apply the blood to the vessels and the priests would eat it after it was roasted.

Jesus explained:-
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you . . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
(John 6v53, 63)

And be aware, "the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7v39)
Heb

10We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

[calidog]

When Jesus said "it is finished" he was only referring to his earthly mission to die for our sin as the Lamb of God. John the baptist also saidf that just as he came to baptise in water so Jesus would baptise in the Holy Spirit and fire. Yet Jesus did not even begin doing this until he returned to the Father.

This spiritual washing is how Jesus saves.
The Old Testament serves as a pattern that must be fulfilled, you are ignoring it (did you read the Hebrews 13:10 scripture ?)
They wouldn't just kill a lamb, they would apply the blood to the vessels and the priests would eat it after it was roasted.

Jesus explained:-
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you . . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
(John 6v53, 63)

And be aware, "the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7v39)
If you are saying that salvation was'nt available untill the Holy Spirit was given that is incorrect.
What did Jesus tell the thief on the cross when he professed faith?

Yes, Jesus baptises us and He saves us.

We are saved through faith, not through baptism(of any kind).

You say that when Jesus said "it is finished" He was only referring to His earthly mission to die.

I believe it is more than that. It is finished is referring to what was began; that is, redemption.
Remember, the vail was torn, top to bottom.:)

[AllTalkNoAction]

If you are saying that salvation was'nt available untill the Holy Spirit was given that is incorrect.
What did Jesus tell the thief on the cross when he professed faith?
You don't understand New Testament salvation, this point was already dealt with in response #28 to you earlier on this thread.

You keep mentioning the thief on the cross, but ignore the scriptural detail given.

[calidog]

I have already read previouse post an have re-read it.
I'm in total disagreement with your interpretation of this portion of scripture.
That interpretation is new to me; I've never heard that one before.

[ivory]

It is Finished!!

His Work, Ministry and complete & sacrificial obedience to His Heavenly Father is thoroughly complete.:amen: :clap:

[Schroeder]

Can you not see that John's audience had nonbelievers (Pharisees) in it, those that rejected his baptism?
When John said to his audience "I baptize you with water" it is obvious everyone in his audience was not baptized with water, therefore the pronoun "you" is not universal in scope. When John said Jesus would baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire, the 'you' here is also not universal. If 'you' were unversal, then all of John's audience, including the unbelievers, would not only be be baptized with the Holy Ghost, they all would also be baptized with fire, all his audience would be lost. You claim (with no proof) to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, so when will you be baptized with fire? I doubt that it was not just the pharisees that did not believe. this is your assumption. It was universal because he is making the statement that HE baptizes with water. IT has to becasue he is not speaking to JUST one person or just to the pharisees. ANd if he is speaking to the pharisees only then did he water baptize them nope, SO you still have a problem. AND If we read the OTHER accounts like mark and lukes you could not make this silly interpretation. LETS READ THERE TAKE. mark 1:7-8 " And this was his MESSAGE: "after me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water but he will baptize you with the holy spirit." LUKE 3:15-16 THE people were waiting expectantly and were ALL wondering in their hearts if John might be the Christ. John answered THEM ALL," i baptize you with water. BUT one more powerfull thean i will come and he will baptize you with the Holy Spiriit and with fire....." So Now do you still say what you say. These other passages of the SAME event show RATHER WELL that he was indeed speaking universaly to ALL those around.
Have you read Acts 1:1-5? If so you will see that baptism with the Holy SPirit was promised only to the apostles, not you! 1 Cor 12:13 does not change or contradict Acts 1:1-5. You continue to throw 1 COr 12:13 out there but you never give proof that it says what you think it does. THe verse say by one Spirit not with one Spirit. THe Spirit baptizes just as CHrist did by giving His authority, John 4:1,2. Jesus baptized not, He baptized by giving His authority. THe Holy Spirit gives His authority to the disciples to baptize. In 1 Cor 1:14,16, Paul baptized some of the Corinthians and Paul could only adiminister water baptism. You continue to violate Eph 4:5 by trying to make two baptisms in effect today. Dont know if i really need to go on since it was shown quite clear your first error but i will. I have read acts 1:1-5 and i dont see were HE states that this Holy SPirit baptism is just promised to them. Seeing how you said it was for the family in cornelia.

And I will show this PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT elsewere. Acts 2:39, Gal. 3:14-29, Now read eph 1:13-14. You should notice a few things that all come together including prochy of Jeol, the ALL flesh part. Read eph 3:6 which goes with 1 cor 12:13 and again shows the ALL FLESH of joel prophecy. MAKE SURE YOU READ THESE VERSES BEFORE YOU MAKE A RESPONSE.

1 cor 1 shows what water baptism was for ASSOCIATION with a group or persons teachings. which is why he is upset they say i FOLLOW APollos i follow Cephas ect. They were not getting the point It was the message of Christ they were to FOLLOW, Put there faith in Christ NOT the one giving the message. Eph 4 is the SPirit because water baptism is NEVER commanded. untill you get this figured out you MUST say what you say. BUT since i just showed that the SCRIPTURES showes you wrong maybe, you will see it correctly. Eph 4 speaks NOT of rites or ordances which heb 9:10 states clearly that there is none now, BUT of salvation.

Joel said Gods Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh, he did not say the Spirit would be poured out upon each and every single Jew and Gentile. One more time, Jew and Gentile made up all flesh, so when the Jew and Gentile in Acts 2 and 10 were baptized with the Holy Spirit, then all flesh, Jew and Gentile, fulfilled Joel's prophecy.
I showed scripture that shows you wrong but i will give you an ilistration. I show you 10 sticks. 5 are blue 5 are red. one color represents jew and the other gentile. If I tell you to pick up "ALL" of them what would do. Just pick up some of the red and some of the blue. This is what your trying to tell me Joel is saying. Eph 3:6-7 is a GREAT illustration of what joel is saying.





Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, Mt 5:17,18. If Joel's prophesies are not fulfilled then Jesus was not the Messiah. As John said, Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost, and He did such in Acts 2 and 10, thus fulfilling Joel's prophecy.
changed your wording i see. He did but JOELS prophecy is NOT just about the giving of the Holy Spirit. It does continue on does it not. So this prophecy is not fully fullfilled. and there are other prophecies not fullfilled as well so your arguement is not valid.

[jmacvols]

I doubt that it was not just the pharisees that did not believe. this is your assumption. It was universal because he is making the statement that HE baptizes with water. IT has to becasue he is not speaking to JUST one person or just to the pharisees. ANd if he is speaking to the pharisees only then did he water baptize them nope, SO you still have a problem. AND If we read the OTHER accounts like mark and lukes you could not make this silly interpretation. LETS READ THERE TAKE. mark 1:7-8 " And this was his MESSAGE: "after me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water but he will baptize you with the holy spirit." LUKE 3:15-16 THE people were waiting expectantly and were ALL wondering in their hearts if John might be the Christ. John answered THEM ALL," i baptize you with water. BUT one more powerfull thean i will come and he will baptize you with the Holy Spiriit and with fire....." So Now do you still say what you say. These other passages of the SAME event show RATHER WELL that he was indeed speaking universaly to ALL those around.
Dont know if i really need to go on since it was shown quite clear your first error but i will. I have read acts 1:1-5 and i dont see were HE states that this Holy SPirit baptism is just promised to them. Seeing how you said it was for the family in cornelia.

You admit from above that there were unbelievers, (those John had not water baptized) in John's audience. So when John said 'I baptize you with water', the pronoun you did not include everyone in his audience, (unless you erroneously think these unbelievers were baptized by John). So you cannot be universal, it is used in a limited, non-personal sense. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot say on one hand the pronoun you is universal and all in his audience was water baptized, but on the other hand say there were unbaptized unbelievers in his audience too. John did say you to all his audience, but it is obvious there were those in his audience unbaptized, so you has to be used in a limited, non-personal sense. John said Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire. If you is universal, then everyone in John's audience will be lost. Everyone will not only be baptized with the Holy Ghost but with fire too. You condemn yourself with your wrong interpretation of this passage. In 1 Thess 4:15 Paul said to the Thessalonians, we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. Here Paul used the pronoun we in a limited, nonpersonal sense. Obviously those Thessalonians are not alive now. Using personal pronouns this way is very common. A minister may say to the whole congreagation, "You have given liberally of your money" even though he knows there are some who have not.

And I will show this PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT elsewere. Acts 2:39, Gal. 3:14-29, Now read eph 1:13-14. You should notice a few things that all come together including prochy of Jeol, the ALL flesh part. Read eph 3:6 which goes with 1 cor 12:13 and again shows the ALL FLESH of joel prophecy. MAKE SURE YOU READ THESE VERSES BEFORE YOU MAKE A RESPONSE.

Acts 1:1-5 establishes that Jesus was with the apostles. In v4 the pronoun 'them' refer to the apostles Jesus was with, and the apostles were to wait for the promise of the Father which the apostles had heard of Him (Comforter from the book of John). Verse 5, but ye (apostles) shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This pronoun "ye' includes the apostles not you. One can only misunderstand this passage by trying to misunderstand it. This baptism was not promise to Cornelius, it was something the Lord did to fulfill Joel's prophecy and show the Jews that God accepts the Gentiles, that both Jew and Gentile would be saved the same way. Acts 2:39 is a promise of Acts 2:38, anyone that repents and is baptize will have their sins remitted. Verse 38 references water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins ie the baptism of the great commission. There is NO verse that says baptism with the Holy Ghost remits sins. Gal 3:27 references the baptism of the great commision. Eph 1:13,14 does not speak of bpatism with the Holy Spirit. From Acts 19:5 the Eph were baptized in the name of the Lord. This baptism in the name of the Lord is water baptism for the remission of sins, Act 2:38; 10:47,48. Again, you continue to quote 1 Cor 12:13 with proving it says what you think it says.

1 cor 1 shows what water baptism was for ASSOCIATION with a group or persons teachings. which is why he is upset they say i FOLLOW APollos i follow Cephas ect. They were not getting the point It was the message of Christ they were to FOLLOW, Put there faith in Christ NOT the one giving the message. Eph 4 is the SPirit because water baptism is NEVER commanded. untill you get this figured out you MUST say what you say. BUT since i just showed that the SCRIPTURES showes you wrong maybe, you will see it correctly. Eph 4 speaks NOT of rites or ordances which heb 9:10 states clearly that there is none now, BUT of salvation.

You made all of this up! There is not a single verse that teaches any of what you say here!

One last time, by the time Paul wrote Eph 4:5 he said there was ONE baptism, so there is ONE baptism in effect today. Paul water baptized some of the Corintians 1:14,16, yet you erroneously and without proof say 1 Cor 12:12 is baptism with the Holy Spirit. Above you erroneously call Paul's baptizing of the Corinthians a baptism of 'association' then you declare 1 Cor 12:13 speaks of baptism with the Holy Spirit. Paul said there is ONE baptism, you continuously and erroneously try and create two as seen here. Your whole argument fails on this simple point that one does not equal two.


I showed scripture that shows you wrong but i will give you an ilistration. I show you 10 sticks. 5 are blue 5 are red. one color represents jew and the other gentile. If I tell you to pick up "ALL" of them what would do. Just pick up some of the red and some of the blue. This is what your trying to tell me Joel is saying. Eph 3:6-7 is a GREAT illustration of what joel is saying.

Will all animals be baptized with the Holy Ghost since they have flesh? Of course not, so all flesh is limited in scope. Jew and Gentile made up all flesh so when Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy Spirit then all flesh (Jew and Gentile) fulfilled Joel's prophecy. In Acts 15:7ff Peter says that God gave them the Holy Ghost as He did unto us. The pronoun them refers to the Gentiles (Cornelius) and us refers to Jews(apostles). Peter is referring specifically to the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius in Acts 10 as "Jew and Gentile", NO ONE ELSE. There is no record or evidence that anyone other than the Jews in Acts 2 and those Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy GHost. For you to claim otherwise is going against what the bible says, a claim with no proof. You cannot even prove that you have been baptized with the Holy Ghost.




changed your wording i see. He did but JOELS prophecy is NOT just about the giving of the Holy Spirit. It does continue on does it not. So this prophecy is not fully fullfilled. and there are other prophecies not fullfilled as well so your arguement is not valid.

Matt 5:17,18 read the same today as it always has, the wording has not changed a bit.
Either Jesus was the Messiah and fulfillled Joel's prophecies or if Joel's prophecy is not fulfilled then the man known as Jesus was not the Messiah.
If people today are still receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit, then Joel's prohecy has not yet been fufilled.
You have to pick one or the other, you cannot have it both ways as you try.

There is NO verse that says baptism with the Holy Ghost remits sin.

There is NO verse that says baptism with the Holy Ghost will last till the end of time.


There is NO verse where one was commanded to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This baptism was only promised and one cannot obey a promise. Water baptism of the great commission was commanded, so we today CAN obey this command and be water baptized.

There is NO verse that promises baptism with the Holy Ghost to anyone other than the apostles.

There is NO verse that says anyone other than the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy Ghost.

[gratefulgrace]

I have read the account of the thief on the cross and do not see where you get your interpretation from. He was not mocking Jesus but rebuking his fellow criminal. I see no reason to read malice into the account given. It is possible that he did previously mock as another gospel mentions, but repentence and recognizing Jesus as Lord can take only a moment. This appears to be what happened here.
Luk 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ,* save Yourself and us."
Luk 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord,* remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

[HowardDean]

I know it felt wonderful when I got saved, but when I asked for the baptism of the holy spirit, it was amazing.

[Schroeder]

You admit from above that there were unbelievers, (those John had not water baptized) in John's audience. So when John said 'I baptize you with water', the pronoun you did not include everyone in his audience, (unless you erroneously think these unbelievers were baptized by John). So you cannot be universal, it is used in a limited, non-personal sense. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot say on one hand the pronoun you is universal and all in his audience was water baptized, but on the other hand say there were unbaptized unbelievers in his audience too. John did say you to all his audience, but it is obvious there were those in his audience unbaptized, so you has to be used in a limited, non-personal sense. John said Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire. If you is universal, then everyone in John's audience will be lost. Everyone will not only be baptized with the Holy Ghost but with fire too. You condemn yourself with your wrong interpretation of this passage. In 1 Thess 4:15 Paul said to the Thessalonians, we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. Here Paul used the pronoun we in a limited, nonpersonal sense. Obviously those Thessalonians are not alive now. Using personal pronouns this way is very common. A minister may say to the whole congreagation, "You have given liberally of your money" even though he knows there are some who have not. So you are willing to OVERLOOK the OTHER passages baout this event that make it VERY CLEAR that JTB is speaking to everyone. In Mark "And this is his MESSAGE..." LUKE " JOhn answered them ALL..." John "JTB gave this TESTIMONY..." " The man on whom you see the SPirit come down and remain is he who WILL baptize with the Holy SPirit." WHY would he need to say this to them IF it was just for the apostles and to fulfill joels prophecy. YOu conveniantly ignore these. It is right there and others can see it even if you refuse to. If you read john 7:38-39 you will see that Jeuss DOES give the Spirit, which i would think refers to JTB saying Jesus would ba[ptize with the SPirit. because scripture says in john 3:6 that the SPirit gives the SPirit. And it is not given untill Jesus is in SPirit So this is true. SO when scripture speaks of getting the SPirit or receiving it, it is the baptism of the SPirit.



Acts 1:1-5 establishes that Jesus was with the apostles. In v4 the pronoun 'them' refer to the apostles Jesus was with, and the apostles were to wait for the promise of the Father which the apostles had heard of Him (Comforter from the book of John). Verse 5, but ye (apostles) shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This pronoun "ye' includes the apostles not you. One can only misunderstand this passage by trying to misunderstand it. getting desperate. only you picking words out and translating them into your thinking do we see this. Or should i say him saying "ye" does not HAVE to mean just them and the gospels as i have said make this clear.
This baptism was not promise to Cornelius, it was something the Lord did to fulfill Joel's prophecy and show the Jews that God accepts the Gentiles, that both Jew and Gentile would be saved the same way. again you refuse to look at the WHOLE prophecy together. the lord did not come to fulfill joels prophecy He came to fulfil the LAW. the prophecies were to reveal signs that He he is the one. Joels prophecy covers more then one thing which you refuse to see. ALl of his prophecy is not yet fulfilled and one part is being fulfilled the giving of the SPirit to ALL flesh( those who wish to receive it)
Acts 2:39 is a promise of Acts 2:38, anyone that repents and is baptize will have their sins remitted. Verse 38 references water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins ie the baptism of the great commission. There is NO verse that says baptism with the Holy Ghost remits sins. Gal 3:27 references the baptism of the great commision. Eph 1:13,14 does not speak of bpatism with the Holy Spirit. From Acts 19:5 the Eph were baptized in the name of the Lord. This baptism in the name of the Lord is water baptism for the remission of sins, Act 2:38; 10:47,48. Again, you continue to quote 1 Cor 12:13 with proving it says what you think it says. the PROMISE is the holy SPirit in all of us SO we do not have to go throught he preists to get to God. you cant get away from acts 2:38 you interprete the rest of scripture THROUGH this misinterprated verse. Joel prophecy says he will POUR out his Spirit in those days. rom 5:5 says he POURED out his love INTO our hearts BY the HOLY SPIRIT , whom he has GIVEN US. It says he creditied us righteopus-for us who BELIEVE in Him. Gal 3:14 says SO that by FAITH we might receive the PROMISE of the SPirit. and the Spirit is given when we BELIEVE as said in eph 1:13-14 and gal 3:22. So your interpretation of acts 2:38 is off just a bit. Gal 3 also speaks of inheritance(like eph 1:13-14) through the Promise. SO if we go by WHAT just happened to Peter and the Apostles, being baptized by the Spirit, and what the REST of scripture says, He could only be speaking of the baptism of the Spirit since there is NO other scripture that says water baptism forgives sin NONE. but there is scripture that states Christ blood does the way we get to this blood is through the Spirit which unites us to His sacrifice. rom 6-8. And since scripture is VERY clear in saying that the SPirit gives the SPirit and we only need to BELIEVE to receive it. It is baptism by christ with the SPirit because it is Jesus coming INTO our life. You say the SPirit does not remit sin yet scripture often speaks of NOT being able to do god will without it. rom 8 says " the law of the SPIRIT of life set me free FROM the law of sin and death. 1 cor 12:13 is RATHER CLEAR. It says" FOr we were ALL baptized BY one SPIRIT into ONE body." sounds like eph 4 does it not.




You made all of this up! There is not a single verse that teaches any of what you say here!
i dont reead through what i think ONE verse says.

One last time, by the time Paul wrote Eph 4:5 he said there was ONE baptism, so there is ONE baptism in effect today. Paul water baptized some of the Corintians 1:14,16, yet you erroneously and without proof say 1 Cor 12:12 is baptism with the Holy Spirit. Above you erroneously call Paul's baptizing of the Corinthians a baptism of 'association' then you declare 1 Cor 12:13 speaks of baptism with the Holy Spirit. Paul said there is ONE baptism, you continuously and erroneously try and create two as seen here. Your whole argument fails on this simple point that one does not equal two.
There is only one baptism the one mentioned in 1 cor 12:13. We were ALL baptized by ONE spirit. If you really wished to see it correctly you would notice this passage is speaking of the BODY which if you read 1 cor 12 it ALSO is speaking of this. what proof do i need to say what IT CLEARLY SAYS. I did not change the words around at all. there were two baptisms but if you would put things into context of what is being spoke about and stop interpretating everything into what you think acts 2:38 says you would see it. ALl you have to do is see that JTB said Jesus would baptize with the SPirit, which i have shown he says to everyone there. So this leads us to know that this baptism of the SPirit IS for ALL who believe in him. which means THE ONE baptism must be the one mentioned in 1 cor 12:13 because this baptism brings us into the body or Church.



Will all animals be baptized with the Holy Ghost since they have flesh? Of course not, so all flesh is limited in scope. Jew and Gentile made up all flesh so when Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy Spirit then all flesh (Jew and Gentile) fulfilled Joel's prophecy. In Acts 15:7ff Peter says that God gave them the Holy Ghost as He did unto us. The pronoun them refers to the Gentiles (Cornelius) and us refers to Jews(apostles). Peter is referring specifically to the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius in Acts 10 as "Jew and Gentile", NO ONE ELSE. There is no record or evidence that anyone other than the Jews in Acts 2 and those Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with the Holy GHost. For you to claim otherwise is going against what the bible says, a claim with no proof. You cannot even prove that you have been baptized with the Holy Ghost. Why do you keep bringing up animals. it is just to misguide those into belieiving your interpretation. See you prove my point you cherry pick scripture thenm cherry pick words and distort them into a false interpretation. If we went by how you interprate we would be endlessly breaking down words. You say that EVERY time baptism is used it means water baptism. SOO how is it different or wrong if i said every word that says SPirit is not Spirit baptism. I cann prove i was baptized by the Spirit because i am NOT who i used to be. I do not think like i used to think, AND it is because of what rom 8:1-10 says and what gal 5:19-25 says. THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT SET ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. water baptism did not set me free form anything.







Matt 5:17,18 read the same today as it always has, the wording has not changed a bit.
Either Jesus was the Messiah and fulfillled Joel's prophecies