Is "Denomination" one of Satan's last attepmts to divide and destroy Christianity?

[Caleb89]

When I registered to become a member of CF, I registered just as "Christian." But, if I was to choose a "denonomination," if you will, it would be Non-denominational. This is because I personally believe that denonination is one of Satan's last attempts to divide and destroy Christianity. I've saw first hand what "religion" and "denomination" and 'doctrine" can do to a church. It can very easily destroy a church and its congregation. Believe me, I've witnessed it first hand. In fact there's a qoute that I cannot for the life of me remember who it came from (I would have to look it up), but Rob Bell mentioned it in his book Velvet Elvis{GREAT BOOK!!!}. It goes, "Doctrine is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."

One of my FAVORITE TV preachers is John Hagee, who is Non-denominational!!!

Anyway, my question is:

Do many Non-denominational Christians share my view that "denomination" is one of Satan's last attempts to divide and destroy Christianity?

Thanks.

GOD BLESS!!!

[Scorcher505]

While denominations can be viewed as something that divides people, they also serve to unify believers that share common beliefs. Denominations are not of Satan, what is of Satan is the hate that can flow between different denominations.

[Caleb89]

While denominations can be viewed as something that divides people, they also serve to unify believers that share common beliefs. Denominations are not of Satan, what is of Satan is the hate that can flow between different denominations.

That's a good way of looking at it.

Thanks for your point of view!

Are there any others?

[ivory]

That is a interesting question. Is it Satan that is dividing or God?


Luke 12:
51: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53: The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. :confused:

[BonnieBee]

Edit: oops, I'm not meant to discuss anything here, right....? :sorry:

[calidog]

That is a interesting question. Is it Satan that is dividing or God?


Not God. I don't think luke 12 is indicating God will bring division in the church. I think He's talking about Him bringing division in the world.

"Tares and wheat" seem to be more of the indication He is going to allow (not cause, but let) the church become mixed.

If that's true, He makes it a 'black and white' issue; or a "sheep and goat" issue.

hmmmm????

[Caleb89]

Not God. I don't think luke 12 is indicating God will bring division in the church. I think He's talking about Him bringing division in the world.

"Tares and wheat" seem to be more of the indication He is going to allow (not cause, but let) the church become mixed.

If that's true, He makes it a 'black and white' issue; or a "sheep and goat" issue.

hmmmm????

That's a really good point.

Thanks!

GOD BLESS!!!


Anyone else have any other view points? This is fascinating to me! And I think that it is not only a really good question, but and important one, too!!!

[Amisk]

While denominations can be viewed as something that divides people, they also serve to unify believers that share common beliefs. Denominations are not of Satan, what is of Satan is the hate that can flow between different denominations.

I think you are correct. Denominationlism has created a lot of animosity within the Christian World, even to the point of starting wars etc. This of course is not of God nor the teaching of Scripture, at that point I suppose would one say that the devil has stepped into God's kingdom just as he did in the Garden of Eden.

On the other hand Denominationlism has its good points, it gives strength to gatherings of Christians in a particular areas of the world. There is strength in numbers, that is why Paul tells us in Heb 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

The title of this forum is misleading, for there is no such thing as "Non-Denominational Christians". The very fact that one chooses a name or title for a group of Christians makes them a Denomination. It tells the world that they have a set of agreed upon principles by which the group governs their lives. Those principles differ somewhat from one group to another.

Rather than worrying about Denominationlism as such, we should strive to live peaceably with all men. We need to seek to keep our doctrine on tract with the teaching of Christ, and stress those doctrines which are important such as doctrines of Salvation, encouraging the lost to seek the Lord, and Christians to live in holiness. Having striven to do that will keep us out of false cults and will not allow us to hate fellow Christians as sometimes happens in denominational problems. Most denominational disputes arise over miner doctrines which will not keep us out of Heaven.

[Nadiine]

I'd like to turn this around using the arguments of non denominationlists.

Non denoms. argue that "denominationalists" (those in a denom) are DIVIDING the body of Christ by being in a denom.

Ok, but aren't WE dividing from the body of Christ by DIVIDING from denominationalists at the same time?

If WE are pointing out THEIR "sin" /wrong/error, then why are we returning it in kind to them?
If we claim we want UNITY, then we need to UNIFY with denominationalists so we ARE "one body of Christ".

I keep seeing division from non denoms. while they point the finger at the others for dividing. :scratch: :scratch:

If it's wrong of them, then it has to be wrong of US.

[CooL_Genesis]

I'd like to turn this around using the arguments of non denominationlists.

Non denoms. argue that "denominationalists" (those in a denom) are DIVIDING the body of Christ by being in a denom.

Ok, but aren't WE dividing from the body of Christ by DIVIDING from denominationalists at the same time?

If WE are pointing out THEIR "sin" /wrong/error, then why are we returning it in kind to them?
If we claim we want UNITY, then we need to UNIFY with denominationalists so we ARE "one body of Christ".

I keep seeing division from non denoms. while they point the finger at the others for dividing. :scratch: :scratch:

If it's wrong of them, then it has to be wrong of US.

Amen! :amen:

[mick24458]

All of our denominations have their own "bells and smells and incense and nonsense", including my own. I like to post as a Christian rahter than the denomination that I am a part of.

[linssue55]

When I registered to become a member of CF, I registered just as "Christian." But, if I was to choose a "denonomination," if you will, it would be Non-denominational. This is because I personally believe that denonination is one of Satan's last attempts to divide and destroy Christianity. I've saw first hand what "religion" and "denomination" and 'doctrine" can do to a church. It can very easily destroy a church and its congregation. Believe me, I've witnessed it first hand. In fact there's a qoute that I cannot for the life of me remember who it came from (I would have to look it up), but Rob Bell mentioned it in his book Velvet Elvis{GREAT BOOK!!!}. It goes, "Doctrine is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."

One of my FAVORITE TV preachers is John Hagee, who is Non-denominational!!!

Anyway, my question is:

Do many Non-denominational Christians share my view that "denomination" is one of Satan's last attempts to divide and destroy Christianity?

Thanks.

GOD BLESS!!!Ignorance of Doctrine Produces Flawed Application; Denominations Are Unbiblical





1. Note that it is when Paul desires to perform divine good that he discovers the principle of evil residing in him. Why?
2. Although his desire to perform divine good is sincere, his concept of divine good is flawed by legalistic wheel-tracks.
3. Ignorance of God’s plan, policy, and purpose forces the sincere Christian to make stuff up.

4. This is demonstrated by churches that spend more time defending their denomination’s theological statement rather then examining the Scripture to determine its message.

5. Although denominations have been traditional in this country from its founding there is no biblical authorization for them. The local church is to be autonomous.

6. Yet denominations scoff at independent churches such as ours because they assert such churches do not have the oversight of a hierarchy to supervise their pastors and their messages.

7. Good point. Question: Would Jesus Christ, Head of the Church, be a sufficient enough Ombudsman to quell their concerns?
8. Each pastor must answer to the Lord for what he teaches. Thus, dependent upon the Holy Spirit and submissive to a systematic approach to the interpretation and exposition of the Scripture, the independent pastor is guided by the text rather than a 500-year old denominational statement.


However, there must be a
systematic approach to the text and this
requires the development of a systematic
theology, a science defined by:
Chafer, Lewis Sperry. “Preface.” In Systematic Theology. (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1947), 1:x-xi:
Systematic Theology is the collecting, scientifically arranging, comparing, exhibiting, and defending of all facts from any and every source concerning God and His works.

Theologians have no permission from God to restrict the field of theology to the material found in the standards of their respective denominations or the more or less restricted teachings of the uninspired leaders who formulated those standards.

The divine revelation in its entirety, and not merely the portions of it which harmonize with accepted dicta, challenges the student of doctrine.

10. The development of an orthodox systematic theology demands that the Scripture be approached by a system that accurately and efficiently “collects, arranges, compares, exhibits, and defends”
the facts it examines.

[New_Wineskin]

Denomination has been both a blessing and a curse .

It has been a blessing because , when christianity was primarily a singular entity , people in power attempted to gain even more power . It happened once with the Orthodox when the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox split ( not saying who was correct or not ) . Then , about 500 years later , Luther and others came at a time where people were even more controlling . Though Luther attempted to keep one entity in Western Europe , the powers that were would not budge . Denominations now allow much more freedom for people . If there is a controlling atmosphere , one can simply leave .

However , since denominationalism , they have pushed the Law even further with the "must go to church" command . They have associated "church" with these denominations or clubs . They insist that one must belong to one or the other which is an insistance on division . People who love division call those who do not like denominationalism "church hoppers" or "lone rangers" .

[linssue55]

Denomination has been both a blessing and a curse .

It has been a blessing because , when christianity was primarily a singular entity , people in power attempted to gain even more power . It happened once with the Orthodox when the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox split ( not saying who was correct or not ) . Then , about 500 years later , Luther and others came at a time where people were even more controlling . Though Luther attempted to keep one entity in Western Europe , the powers that were would not budge . Denominations now allow much more freedom for people . If there is a controlling atmosphere , one can simply leave .

However , since denominationalism , they have pushed the Law even further with the "must go to church" command . They have associated "church" with these denominations or clubs . They insist that one must belong to one or the other which is an insistance on division . People who love division call those who do not like denominationalism "church hoppers" or "lone rangers" .PLEASE show me anywhere in the bible where the Lord sanctions denominations? Verse/verses please.

[whateveristrue]

While denominations can be viewed as something that divides people, they also serve to unify believers that share common beliefs. Denominations are not of Satan, what is of Satan is the hate that can flow between different denominations.
In this day and age, it's not about having common beliefs and practices... it's about having common enemies.

[Nadiine]

In this day and age, it's not about having common beliefs and practices... it's about having common enemies.

:cry: That sounds about right - even though I'm the first one to divide with people that are promoting false doctrines that are central to salvation.

Division is fine as long as it's in an essential doctrine that makes us Christian by bible definition.

I wonder if Reality TV has anything to do with finding things to attack than unite in? :scratch:

[New_Wineskin]

PLEASE show me anywhere in the bible where the Lord sanctions denominations? Verse/verses please.

I could ask the following :

Where are the passages where one is allowed to a hypocrite ?

Where are *your* passages stating "bible" ?
Where are *your* passages stating "verses" ?
Where are *your* passages stating where *I* must have such things for *you* ?

Where is there *anywhere* in the Scriptures that have people providing "verses" for someone else ? *anywhere* ?


but , I think that such questions are too far out of the box for those who live under the Law .


Instead , ...

Where have *I* sanctioned denominations ?
I don't like any of your clubs that you call "churches" which are *all* denominations . You know that they have no scriptural ground to call themselves "churches" since they all have memberships seperating themselves from other christians and insisting that people mainly attend the meetings they have .


Sanctioned ?
Where is the use of personal computers sanctioned ?

The Scriptures state that :
"And where there is no law there is no transgression."(NIV)
Anyone who claims to know much about the Scriptures should remember where that one is written . So , no reference would be needed .

However , that passage says that anything not expressly forbidden is permitted . You have contradicted that passage in the Scriptures by implying that anything not expressly permitted is forbidden .

So , anyone who *does* want a passage sanctioning denominations ( I don't ) can use that passage since no passage forbids them .

[Lyle]

The survival of Christianity is not based on the unification of the saints. The truth nature of Christ is not so weak. I don't think it's an attack of Satan either, because I don't believe He would work under the banner of an exhalted Christ; it would oppose his nature. rather, it's just the picture of the sin that lives in us still.

[pletho]

anyone there

[marke]

That is a interesting question. Is it Satan that is dividing or God?


Luke 12:
51: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53: The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. :confused:
He is speaking about believers and non-believers which cause the strife within the home.

Jesus envisioned a body of one mind. Time and time again we read "one mind".

So why aren't we all of one mind? Simple. We want to believe what we want to believe and find others who are willing to confirm our belief right or wrong. Birds of a feather flock together.

I don't do that anymore. I won't flock together with those who look upon their "faith" as they do a box of candy picking this belief and discarding that belief that they don't agree with. That's spiritual pollution.

The Bible contains everything we need without the religion. DO NOT KILL. Any questions? Religion seems to be the tool of disunity just as it was when Jesus walked the earth. DO NOT KILL means, except for in this situation in one denomination and it means something in another denomination instead of the just plain as day DO NOT KILL.

Yes, the enemy of our soul has caused division in the body of Christ, but the truth is found in the New Testament and whether you like it or not DO NOT KILL still means DO NOT KILL.

Have a great year. God bless.

[Nadiine]

The survival of Christianity is not based on the unification of the saints. The truth nature of Christ is not so weak. I don't think it's an attack of Satan either, because I don't believe He would work under the banner of an exhalted Christ; it would oppose his nature. rather, it's just the picture of the sin that lives in us still.

I think there's some merit to your viewpoint.

We do have an example though, that Satan worked thru Peter in rebuking Christ's crucifixion. Jesus had to rebuke Satan who was using Peter.
So I think we CAN be used by Satan.

But, IS IT an attack of satan? I don't see disagreement as division though.
Mere disagreement doesnt' mean we can't be unified.

I think we're getting to where we think we all have to Agree on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE to be in "UNITY", and that's not what real unity is.
Otherwise, we'd all be robotic Stepford Wife types - There were disagreements & differences in the Apostles & early Christians, and there will continue to be today.

Until the next age when we're in our renewed status.
:angel:

[Kelly]

I see denoms, for the mostpart, as extensions of the concept of the body of Christ. Each has it's focus and aspects of the faith that it 'does best'.

It does make me sad when the division becomes so great that one feels like it's the 'one true faith' though.

[linssue55]

I could ask the following :


but , I think that such questions are too far out of the box for those who live under the Law .


Instead , ...

Where have *I* sanctioned denominations ?
I don't like any of your clubs that you call "churches" which are *all* denominations . You know that they have no scriptural ground to call themselves "churches" since they all have memberships seperating themselves from other christians and insisting that people mainly attend the meetings they have .


Sanctioned ?
Where is the use of personal computers sanctioned ?

The Scriptures state that :
"And where there is no law there is no transgression."(NIV)
Anyone who claims to know much about the Scriptures should remember where that one is written . So , no reference would be needed .

However , that passage says that anything not expressly forbidden is permitted . You have contradicted that passage in the Scriptures by implying that anything not expressly permitted is forbidden .

So , anyone who *does* want a passage sanctioning denominations ( I don't ) can use that passage since no passage forbids them .Nope! You are answering a question with a question. Verse/verses please! ;)

[SteelDisciple]

If it's not Satan's plan...then it's the best plan to destroy Christianity that satan never thought up.
I see no love or unity here among the denominations.

I see hate, I see anger, I see mocking, I see twisting of scriptures to lead others astray.

[rosiecotton]

When I registered to become a member of CF, I registered just as "Christian." But, if I was to choose a "denonomination," if you will, it would be Non-denominational. This is because I personally believe that denonination is one of Satan's last attempts to divide and destroy Christianity. I've saw first hand what "religion" and "denomination" and 'doctrine" can do to a church. It can very easily destroy a church and its congregation. Believe me, I've witnessed it first hand. In fact there's a qoute that I cannot for the life of me remember who it came from (I would have to look it up), but Rob Bell mentioned it in his book Velvet Elvis{GREAT BOOK!!!}. It goes, "Doctrine is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."

One of my FAVORITE TV preachers is John Hagee, who is Non-denominational!!!

Anyway, my question is:

Do many Non-denominational Christians share my view that "denomination" is one of Satan's last attempts to divide and destroy Christianity?

Thanks.

GOD BLESS!!!

I attended a Presbyterian church until I was 18, when I started dating a guy who attended a non-denom church. Since then, I've only attended non-denoms.
At one time, I thought that it was 'better' to be in a non-denom church, because we 'follow the Bible and not man'.
However, now, even though I am still part of a non-denom church, I no longer think it's 'better'.
Am I a better Christian than the Methodist down the street simply because I'm in a non-denom church? Does God love me more than the Presbyterians across town because I'm not in a denominational church? I don't believe so.
I know there are people in every denomination who are following God and love Him with all their heart, soul, mind, etc. God works in their churches just as much as He does in a non-denom church.
And no, I don't have a bunch of verses to support my viewpoint. But I do have the experience of being around others who go to denominational churches and seeing them live their lives for God and seeing God use them in mighty ways.
Denominations may not be what God had in mind, but the simple fact is, they are there. And they probably will be until Christ returns. And honestly, I don't believe it's 'denominations' that cause division, it's HUMANS. We have had division in our own church,and in our own affiliation of churches, even though we are non-denominational. Being non-denom does not exempt us from being divisive. Actually, we can be even more divisive, because we're too 'afraid' to do anything with a denominational church and we look down on others in denominational churches!
As for doctrine, EVERY church has some form of doctrine, even non-denominational. I know our church does, and unfortunately it has at times been the MAIN focus of our church. (by the way I LOVE Velvet Elvis!!)
Oh, and as I said before, about how we don't 'follow man' but follow the Bible. Well, every church was started by someone. The Restoration movement, that my church is a part of, was started by men. And someone has to decide what the beliefs of a church are going to be. Sure, you can say 'we just follow the Bible,' but we are following our interpretation of the Bible and what we believe it says. And most other denominations also believe they are following the Bible.

[Nadiine]

amen Rosie, i had to rep that.

I mentioned it in an earlier post how dedicated my parents are and have been for decades to the Lord in their faith.
THey are Baptist and love the Lord & raised our family in Him. I couldn't have asked for 2 more God fearing parents. (ps. they did play cards too!) ;)

They may have a first name (baptist), but their LAST name is CHRISTIAN of which we are one family.

[prophecystudent]

Interesting question and answers.

I don't believe that Satan is the cause of denominations. I think he plays a part in encouraging strife between the denominations.

Some people feel better in a church with lots of rituals. Others feel comfortable in a more relaxed church service. It is not always about differences between belief in or interpretation of bible text.

One writer here alluded to the issue of the "body". One can look at the denominations (and non-denom) as different parts of the same body. The example is given in the bible, which I believe can be the basis for denominations. Each denomination serves a useful purpose in the WHOLE BODY OF THE CHURCH.

Does Satan use minor differences in interpreting scripture to his advantage by causing hatred and strife between believers? Absolutely.

As long as any denomination abides by the basic gospel and does not commit heresy or blasphemy I see no reason to find fault with them. Should I criticize the way they choose to worship God, or Christ, simply because I choose to do so in a different way? I don't think so.

One poster in this thread used the biblical commandment, "Thou shalt not kill". In actuality, that is a mis-translation from the original Newer texts translate it as "Thou shall not commit murder". Huge difference.

There are several such issues in earlier versions of the bible, and I suspect that some of them are used as tools to find fault with those who have a slightly different understanding. That does not make either one wrong for their belief, it does, however, make them wrong for criticizing others for having a different understanding.

In West Virginia (I believe) there is a denomination, or sect, that practices handling of live poisonous reptiles. They do so based on a single verse in the NT, in which Paul is bitten by a snake, shakes it off into the fire and suffers no illness.

Would I intentionally pick up a live rattlesnake? Not unless someone elses life depended on it. That does not mean that I find those who practice such behavior in their services any less "Christian" than I am. They simply choose a different way to show their faith.

Long post, but this whole issue of inter-denominational strife upsets me.

One large denomination over the last couple of years decide to appoint openly practicing gay bishops. That is against the bible and should not be condoned. In fact, a couple of "parishes" recently voted to withdraw from the national membership because of that practice.

I think the local churches did the right thing, they severed their ties with the national leadership because that leadership committed an open and intentional sin.

In short, denominations are not bad (as long as they follow the basic gospel of salvation and Christ) but the division and strife BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE PEOPLE WITHIN THOSE DENOMINATIONS is bad.

Fred

[New_Wineskin]

...

[RichardE]

I would not say its satan's works, just people with different views.

Its also sad sometimes as I have always found that, just because of very small differnt views, it can effect my reltionships and friendships.

Its sad so many christians have to be divided from each other, some more serios than others.

I just smile knowing that all serves the same purpose one way or another, to follow the lord.

[Adoniram]

I believe Paul had something to say about this in 1 Cor. 12-

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

Christ also recognized the differences in churches in his letters to the seven at the beginning of The Revelation. To each, he had some words of praise and some words of admonition. But I think it would be true that Christ considered each of them to be part of the "body." Those letters could be addressed to every denomination today.

I don't think different denominations are the work of the devil, but I do agree with others that he uses those differences to drive wedges between believers. Keeping that in mind, when we express disagreement with the practices of other denominations, let us do so in love, and without animosity. And don't argue.

In this day of heightened intolerance toward Christianity, as brothers and sisters in Christ, we all need each other.

[New_Wineskin]

In this day of heightened intolerance toward Christianity, as brothers and sisters in Christ, we all need each other.

It is the intolerance *of* christians that has led to the intolerance *towards* them . I certainly don't need to be around the type of christian that has led to that . I don't look at denoms as being from Satan , either though I see it as being from the thinking of Pharasees and the club mentality of religiousness .


Be that as it may , even people in this forum who imply that they dislike denominationalism want to seprate themselves from me which is the same as being in another denomination . They don't need me and that is fine with me . It isn't as if we would ever be in the same palce at the same time , anyway ( given the very small probability of us living within two miles of each other ) .

Even if we all agree with each other , we wouldn't be able to see all other christians . Since we will never see all of the other christians , what does it matter if we are all a part of the same group or not ( if people think that they should be a part of a group ) ? I am more nondenominational than just about all nondenominationalists but people having clubs is fine as long as they don't all form into one .

[pdfiddler]

yes!Not last but one of many.

[Scorcher505]

Denominations themselves are not evil or anything hellspawn. They allow for people to feel comfortable, and provoid a traditions background for people to base their faith. The problem comes when people fight over whose traditions are better, which is a completely different issue altogether.

[PastorMikeJ]

well let's put it this way...when you get to heaven and you find denominations there you have gone to the wrong place...only Christians will be there

[ProfessorJ]

(1Co 1:10) I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
(1Co 3:3) because you're still influenced by your corrupt nature. When you are jealous and quarrel among yourselves, aren't you influenced by your corrupt nature and living by human standards?
(1Co 11:18) For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
(1Co 11:19) for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.;
These are all from 1 Corithans, written by Paul. He says divisions of the "body" should not exist, but also that they exist because some are true Christians while the others are not. I dont disagree with divisions, because sometimes they are necessary. But I also think the ideal church(read:no human influence, basically) wouldnt have divisions. It would just be thepeople gathered to praise God and learn.
In Christ, J