Bickering Christians

[HopeBforJC]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?

[ivory]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal of someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?
I agree, we all should try to get alone.

God Bless you!

[HisSparrow]

It's our sin nature to do so, that's why heaven is so appealing.

[Nadiine]

I might get some irritated replies from this post, but I'm posting it anyways,
I think there are people in the Christian CF sections that either aren't actual Christians or are just plain bringing false teachings which Christians are battling against.

I'm seeing all kinds of unorthodox beliefs & teachings recently on these boards. Some of them I'd expect to be found in the non Christian or atheist areas.

I personally know of 2 Christian members that have left CF due to these types of posts being allowed here when the rules forbid them to reply to them properly.
& it's getting more & more serious.

Other than that,
I'm a very open & non-divisional person when it comes to minor doctrines where we are free to disagree on things (how to baptize, christian liberties, secure salvation, tongues, etc.) - I don't take sides many times.
& I have good friends of many denominations; baptists, reformed, Luthren, pentecostal...
But some of what i'm seeing isn't MINOR, it's major. That's when we all can and SHOULD "bicker" to suppress falsity.

I think far too often we're bickering about unimportant things that don't need to be - maybe we should all ask God to help us keep from unfruitful arguments.
We need to pick our battles with some wisdom I think.

But I WILL argue & contend against the bigger problems I'm seeing lately.

[HopeBforJC]

I might get some irritated replies from this post, but I'm posting it anyways,
I think there are people in the Christian CF sections that either aren't actual Christians or are just plain bringing false teachings which Christians are battling against.

I'm seeing all kinds of unorthodox beliefs & teachings recently on these boards. Some of them I'd expect to be found in the non Christian or atheist areas.

I personally know of 2 Christian members that have left CF due to these types of posts being allowed here when the rules forbid them to reply to them properly.
& it's getting more & more serious.

Other than that,
I'm a very open & non-divisional person when it comes to minor doctrines where we are free to disagree on things (how to baptize, christian liberties, secure salvation, tongues, etc.) - I don't take sides many times.
& I have good friends of many denominations; baptists, reformed, Luthren, pentecostal...
But some of what i'm seeing isn't MINOR, it's major. That's when we all can and SHOULD "bicker" to suppress falsity.

I think far too often we're bickering about unimportant things that don't need to be - maybe we should all ask God to help us keep from unfruitful arguments.
We need to pick our battles with some wisdom I think.

But I WILL argue & contend against the bigger problems I'm seeing lately.
Amen, I agree that there are definitely things that should be discussed and even "argued". But I think I'm basically just saying that I find it non sense to "discriminate" against other denominations, or liberal, or conservative christians. It's stupid. But otherwise, I completely agree. I know a few people on here who've left because they feel that they can't defend their beliefs...

[jesusxchick]

Amen girl.

Bickering is pointless, it really is. What is the point of it? There isn't one. It's in our nature, but why do Christians have to focus so much on why something is right or wrong?

The word of God is VERY important, but shouldn't it be used in a more constructive way than to bicker about?

Thank you for posting this and making this point. It's so true and people need to realize it. It's okay to stick up for your beliefs or try to explain them, but when you get into bickering and arguing, there's no need for it.

P.S. I had never thought of making a topic on this before. It always bugs me when I try to enjoy conversation on here and then have someone point out my faults in the topic or want to prove me wrong. Good thinking on this. :)

[Scorcher505]

We fight because it is human nature to fight, and even tho we are christians we will never get over it

[Nadiine]

Amen girl.

Bickering is pointless, it really is. What is the point of it? There isn't one. It's in our nature, but why do Christians have to focus so much on why something is right or wrong?

The word of God is VERY important, but shouldn't it be used in a more constructive way than to bicker about?

Thank you for posting this and making this point. It's so true and people need to realize it. It's okay to stick up for your beliefs or try to explain them, but when you get into bickering and arguing, there's no need for it.

P.S. I had never thought of making a topic on this before. It always bugs me when I try to enjoy conversation on here and then have someone point out my faults in the topic or want to prove me wrong. Good thinking on this. :)

I agree that I don't like people making slams about things that are personal about me or things I believe that don't have anything to do with important things like Salvation.

I'm fine if people want to discuss & even disagree with doctrinal issues (that's what i'm here for lol) -
But when it gets rude & personal, I stop enjoying talking with them.

My opinion is that people who are rude like that, don't HEAR us anyways - they're shut off & unable to change until they lose the attitude. (imo). :angel:

[jesusxchick]

I agree that I don't like people making slams about things that are personal about me or things I believe that don't have anything to do with important things like Salvation.

I'm fine if people want to discuss & even disagree with doctrinal issues (that's what i'm here for lol) -
But when it gets rude & personal, I stop enjoying talking with them.

My opinion is that people who are rude like that, don't HEAR us anyways - they're shut off & unable to change until they lose the attitude. (imo). :angel:
Yeah I definately get you. It's crazy to think that you can't even enjoy yourself with other Christians without having to worry about someone wanting to bicker with you because they don't agree with something you say or something of the sort. I say having to worry about Christians because God's word tells us to look at each other as Christ does.

A good scripture dealing with this: Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. - Titus 3:9 This is from the New Living Translation, I found this scripture through doing study in the iLumina software of Jesus' teachings.

[Nadiine]

Yeah I definately get you. It's crazy to think that you can't even enjoy yourself with other Christians without having to worry about someone wanting to bicker with you because they don't agree with something you say or something of the sort. I say having to worry about Christians because God's word tells us to look at each other as Christ does.

A good scripture dealing with this: Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. - Titus 3:9 This is from the New Living Translation, I found this scripture through doing study in the iLumina software of Jesus' teachings.

I LOVE that verse! IF ONLY we could all keep it.
After I read that verse years ago when i first started debating, it helped keep me from getting involved in the pointless discussions that weren't important.

If I'm not edifying, uplifting or encouraging my brothers & sisters, then I'm involved in what I consider important issues to discuss.

God help me if I start getting into petty things to pick others apart over. (not that I'm PERFECT, but I try hard not to). :angel: :wave:

[ranyhyn]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?

A very good question indeed. But unfortunately one that is difficult to answer I'm afraid. I tend to think that those who engage in "bickering" are ones who have nothing better to than try to "prove" their point in everything they do. These are the people who like to argue for the sake of arguing regardless of the topic.Plus there is the fact that some people just like to browbeat others into believing that they are the only right ones and that everyone else is wrong. Some people are just more passionate about their beliefs and such and they tend to get defensive at the slightest touch. I agree that there is entirely too much bickering/moaning/groaning about senseless and meaningless topics. But some are and should be debated and discussed. I guess it's just our choice to decide which ones we want to read and get involved in and which ones we just let go by without responding to them.

[HopeBforJC]

A very good question indeed. But unfortunately one that is difficult to answer I'm afraid. I tend to think that those who engage in "bickering" are ones who have nothing better to than try to "prove" their point in everything they do. These are the people who like to argue for the sake of arguing regardless of the topic.Plus there is the fact that some people just like to browbeat others into believing that they are the only right ones and that everyone else is wrong. Some people are just more passionate about their beliefs and such and they tend to get defensive at the slightest touch. I agree that there is entirely too much bickering/moaning/groaning about senseless and meaningless topics. But some are and should be debated and discussed. I guess it's just our choice to decide which ones we want to read and get involved in and which ones we just let go by without responding to them.
Nice post. ;)

I love to debate, but I think there is a difference between debating and disliking someone who's belief is possibly slightly altered than yours. That's why I threw in the liberal and conservative christians. I can't tell you how many times I've heard crap from both sides complaining about the other side. In fact, I was reading something on here that caused me to post this.

[Nadiine]

Nice post. ;)

I love to debate, but I think there is a difference between debating and disliking someone who's belief is possibly slightly altered than yours. That's why I threw in the liberal and conservative christians. I can't tell you how many times I've heard crap from both sides complaining about the other side. In fact, I was reading something on here that caused me to post this.

Well, in a way, this is still a form of 'bickering' about Christians in general tho isn't it? lol
If you pick apart one or both sides for things you dislike them bickering about, it's still a rant if not to rant. :P

I don't personally "pick" any certain denomination to debate - I pick them individually if I think it's an important subject. THey're in the non denominational section, so I have no idea what churches they go to (or don't).

But if the Bible is the truth (and it is:) ), then that's where I'll stick closest to - if we witness the truth in LOVE, it isn't attack, it's HELP.
Sometimes it gets heated, but that's the nature of debate - as long as it doesn't get personal.

One last point, these boards aren't only for cf members, alot of guests are able to read the boards... so I think it's important to argue points so others can read & make up their own minds or hopefully find something helpful out of them.
:angel:

[HopeBforJC]

THey're in the non denominational section, so I have no idea what churches they go to (or don't).
Non-denominational is a denomination in itself though, right?

Your first paragraph is pretty true though. *shrug*

[JustAsIam77]

Well, in a way, this is still a form of 'bickering' about Christians in general tho isn't it? lol
If you pick apart one or both sides for things you dislike them bickering about, it's still a rant if not to rant. :P

I don't personally "pick" any certain denomination to debate - I pick them individually if I think it's an important subject. THey're in the non denominational section, so I have no idea what churches they go to (or don't).

But if the Bible is the truth (and it is:) ), then that's where I'll stick closest to - if we witness the truth in LOVE, it isn't attack, it's HELP.
Sometimes it gets heated, but that's the nature of debate - as long as it doesn't get personal.

One last point, these boards aren't only for cf members, alot of guests are able to read the boards... so I think it's important to argue points so others can read & make up their own minds or hopefully find something helpful out of them.
:angel:

Your comment about "if the bible is the truth, and it is". I thought that was a basic non issue for a Christian. I've read some threads here though where professed Christians question the validity of certain events in the bible because they don't believe they could have happened. They need proof or scientific evidence to substantiate, say, the parting of the red sea. It's just too bizarre. I mean, I have never doubted one word of the bible as being true. If someone says they believe God raised his Son from the dead, but can't believe the same God could part water?

[fishon]

[quote=HopeBforJC;30136315]Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. quote]

Hope,
When you ask why it is a big die if someone is a liberal or a conservative Christian, what might be your definition of liberal Christian and a conservative Christian? I know that can be a huge question, hard to answer, but it is important to know your definition, so as to answer your questions with understanding.

Example: In many, many Christian circles, "liberal Christian" means, but not exclusively, Christians who say that the Bible IS NOT the inspired Word of God. There was a pastor in the town I lived in that taught that the first half of the book of Genesis was just a fairy tale. It was of no use and should be taken out of the Bible.

Of course, if you define "liberal" and "conservative" Christian, it may very well open up a can of "nightcrawlers." So if you choose to ignore my question, I will take it as you not wanting to starting, what could be a heated debate. I will understand.
fishon

[FireQuest]

Your comment about "if the bible is the truth, and it is". I thought that was a basic non issue for a Christian. I've read some threads here though where professed Christians question the validity of certain events in the bible because they don't believe they could have happened. They need proof or scientific evidence to substantiate, say, the parting of the red sea. It's just too bizarre. I mean, I have never doubted one word of the bible as being true. If someone says they believe God raised his Son from the dead, but can't believe the same God could part water?

Very good! :thumbsup: :amen:

[jesusxchick]

I LOVE that verse! IF ONLY we could all keep it.
After I read that verse years ago when i first started debating, it helped keep me from getting involved in the pointless discussions that weren't important.

If I'm not edifying, uplifting or encouraging my brothers & sisters, then I'm involved in what I consider important issues to discuss.

God help me if I start getting into petty things to pick others apart over. (not that I'm PERFECT, but I try hard not to). :angel: :wave:
It's a very good verse and I've thanked God endlessly that He led me to it! It would be nice if we could all get along, though we're all at fault at bickering sometimes.

I'm like you, I try to stay away from bickering. If someone asks about something I say then I try and defend or debate it in a nice way, even though I don't care for debating, but you can't really escape debating I suppose.

[Nadiine]

It's a very good verse and I've thanked God endlessly that He led me to it! It would be nice if we could all get along, though we're all at fault at bickering sometimes.

I'm like you, I try to stay away from bickering. If someone asks about something I say then I try and defend or debate it in a nice way, even though I don't care for debating, but you can't really escape debating I suppose.

Yep :thumbsup:
You know you bring up another good point here, how we're all at CF for different reasons.
I think we have to keep that in mind too when people reply to us on the boards.

I personally AM here to debate - thats my main reason for being here - I enjoy fellowship alot too. :hug:
Others like you are here more for enjoyment & fellowship & stuff like that.
& there's nothing wrong with EITHER reason - we just are coming from different angles.

People like me tend to think analytically & turn things to debate/discussion form (which seems dry & noncaring to many LOL):sleep: But it's not. Just different types of personalities & characters. That's what makes the world go round.

I just hope this thread doesn't start BASHING & pointing fingers at Christians for bickering-- becuz that would be contrary to the thread's title & call for unity in Christ.

I hope it's used to fellowship & enjoy each other in our differences!! :amen: :clap:

May God Unite those who are His together in a spirit of LOVE for the brethren (family of God) :angel:
1Jo 3:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo003.html#14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

[HopeBforJC]

Hope,
When you ask why it is a big die if someone is a liberal or a conservative Christian, what might be your definition of liberal Christian and a conservative Christian? I know that can be a huge question, hard to answer, but it is important to know your definition, so as to answer your questions with understanding.

Example: In many, many Christian circles, "liberal Christian" means, but not exclusively, Christians who say that the Bible IS NOT the inspired Word of God. There was a pastor in the town I lived in that taught that the first half of the book of Genesis was just a fairy tale. It was of no use and should be taken out of the Bible.

Of course, if you define "liberal" and "conservative" Christian, it may very well open up a can of "nightcrawlers." So if you choose to ignore my question, I will take it as you not wanting to starting, what could be a heated debate. I will understand.
fishon
Hmm, good question indeed. My view on what a liberal Christian would be is basically what liberals believe. Some believe for example that abortion is ok. That's just one example out of many. I'm not very good at this whole defining thing. I think a conservative Christian is obviously more conservative and would (well to stick with my definition for a liberal) find abortion not ok. And then again, that is just one example out of many.

Did I answer your question?

[rosiecotton]

Non-denominational is a denomination in itself though, right?

Your first paragraph is pretty true though. *shrug*

Not really. A denomination usually has a 'headquarters' that they have to report to.
Most non-denom churches are independent. They don't have a 'headquarters' that tell them how to run their church.
Also, there are many different kinds of non-denominational churches. Some are more charismatic, some are more conservative. They don't all believe the same exact things.

[HopeBforJC]

Not really. A denomination usually has a 'headquarters' that they have to report to.
Most non-denom churches are independent. They don't have a 'headquarters' that tell them how to run their church.
Also, there are many different kinds of non-denominational churches. Some are more charismatic, some are more conservative. They don't all believe the same exact things.
oh ok, I thought they were all just a little bit different then pentecostal...not as charismatic per se.

[Madewhole]

We bicker because we all got an excuse for something. We bicker because we have our own reason, and some of you have pointed out to me that the word gives us clear instructions, but some still manage to twist the word according to the life they want to live.

[HopeBforJC]

Yep
You know you bring up another good point here, how we're all at CF for different reasons.
I think we have to keep that in mind too when people reply to us on the boards.

I personally AM here to debate - thats my main reason for being here - I enjoy fellowship alot too.
Others like you are here more for enjoyment & fellowship & stuff like that.
& there's nothing wrong with EITHER reason - we just are coming from different angles.

People like me tend to think analytically & turn things to debate/discussion form (which seems dry & noncaring to many LOL) But it's not. Just different types of personalities & characters. That's what makes the world go round.

I just hope this thread doesn't start BASHING & pointing fingers at Christians for bickering-- becuz that would be contrary to the thread's title & call for unity in Christ.

I hope it's used to fellowship & enjoy each other in our differences!! :amen: :clap:

May God Unite those who are His together in a spirit of LOVE for the brethren (family of God) :angel:
1Jo 3:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo003.html#14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

I have to say I like your post a lot :) I'm not really sure why I'm at CF. The last two months I've become a debater, so I suppose that's my reason. I'm not big on the whole "hey! let's play games for 4 hours!" :) I like to have some serious discussions. Maybe learn something while I'm at it, ehh?

[fishon]

HopeBfor JC,
Your answer to what your definition of liberal verses conservative Christian helped. Though there is more to it, I think I know where you are coming from.

Now I would like to answer what you asked that started this thread.

You asked: "Why is there so much fighting and debate between Chrisitans? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Whis is it such a bif deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative Christian? Come on, it doesn't make sense."

Hope, I will try to answer you. I will use the example you gave as to "liberal" verses "conservative" in your answer to me: abortion.

I will not get into a debate with others who may want to debate abortion; that is not the point of my answer. The point is to try and show you why it is important to take a stand that looks like and does turn into big debates, sometimes.

The general consenses of the Christian society would state that someone discribed as a conservative Christian is anti-abortion [pro-life]. Most conservative Christians say that abortion is the taking of an innocent
life. And most of us [conservatives] say it is murder [sounds harsh-but I can show you were Jesus sounded harsh at times].

Now when someone is murdered, you will admit that the human passion is aroused. And when an innocent child is murdered the human passion seems to be aroused even higher. Throw in "partical birth abortion" and passions can burn to a fever pitch.

So when a "Conservative" Christian hears a "Liberal" Christian advocate the killing [murder] [B]of an innocent baby, we can not be still. With our objection to the "liberals" stance on abortion there will naturally come debate. And when the issue is about the life and death of the innocent baby, it really is a big deal. And when there is so much at stake, the life of a baby, it can turn a little nasty.

Now I agree, there is much we fight about that is silly and can get out of hand. But, Hope, there are some things that must be stood up for, and sometimes will splite families and friends. Jesus told us that. The trick is to understand what is worth the battle. I have no doubt as you grow in Christ you will learn what is worth a good debate and what is worth battle.

I hope this helps, a little.
A brother in Christ,
fishon

[elsbeth]

Your comment about "if the bible is the truth, and it is". I thought that was a basic non issue for a Christian.
Just look around the forum at how many threads there are and have been about the inerrancy/infallibility issue. I don't believe that the Bible IS inerrant/infallible, and I have been told that I must, therefore, be worshipping a "false god".
I assure you, I have taken Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior, I am a sincere Christian. This issue is NOT a salvation issue. It doesn't appear as an article of faith in ANY of the early church creeds. It Does NOT even appear in the articles of Christian Forum as something one must profess to be considered a CHristian. Many churches (denominations) do NOT have it as part of their doctrine. It is a matter of personal faith.
But still people claim that I can't possibly be Christian if I don't believe it.

[Nadiine]

Just look around the forum at how many threads there are and have been about the inerrancy/infallibility issue. I don't believe that the Bible IS inerrant/infallible, and I have been told that I must, therefore, be worshipping a "false god".
I assure you, I have taken Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior, I am a sincere Christian. This issue is NOT a salvation issue. It doesn't appear as an article of faith in ANY of the early church creeds. It Does NOT even appear in the articles of Christian Forum as something one must profess to be considered a CHristian. Many churches (denominations) do NOT have it as part of their doctrine. It is a matter of personal faith.
But still people claim that I can't possibly be Christian if I don't believe it.

I hope this thread isn't turning into a debate thread... somebody needs to start a FELLOWSHIP ONLY thread in here lol :thumbsup: :kiss:

[HopeBforJC]

HopeBfor JC,
Your answer to what your definition of liberal verses conservative Christian helped. Though there is more to it, I think I know where you are coming from.

Now I would like to answer what you asked that started this thread.

You asked: "Why is there so much fighting and debate between Chrisitans? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Whis is it such a bif deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative Christian? Come on, it doesn't make sense."

Hope, I will try to answer you. I will use the example you gave as to "liberal" verses "conservative" in your answer to me: abortion.

I will not get into a debate with others who may want to debate abortion; that is not the point of my answer. The point is to try and show you why it is important to take a stand that looks like and does turn into big debates, sometimes.

The general consenses of the Christian society would state that someone discribed as a conservative Christian is anti-abortion [pro-life]. Most conservative Christians say that abortion is the taking of an innocent
life. And most of us [conservatives] say it is murder [sounds harsh-but I can show you were Jesus sounded harsh at times].

Now when someone is murdered, you will admit that the human passion is aroused. And when an innocent child is murdered the human passion seems to be aroused even higher. Throw in "partical birth abortion" and passions can burn to a fever pitch.

So when a "Conservative" Christian hears a "Liberal" Christian advocate the killing [murder] [B]of an innocent baby, we can not be still. With our objection to the "liberals" stance on abortion there will naturally come debate. And when the issue is about the life and death of the innocent baby, it really is a big deal. And when there is so much at stake, the life of a baby, it can turn a little nasty.

Now I agree, there is much we fight about that is silly and can get out of hand. But, Hope, there are some things that must be stood up for, and sometimes will splite families and friends. Jesus told us that. The trick is to understand what is worth the battle. I have no doubt as you grow in Christ you will learn what is worth a good debate and what is worth battle.

I hope this helps, a little.
A brother in Christ,
fishon
Very, very true my friend. Amen :) I would rep you, but I can't! I can't argue against anything you said. You are absolutely correct. And I understand that some things need to be discussed, debated, whatever you want to call it. Thank you very much for your response.
Take care,
Hope

[HopeBforJC]

But still people claim that I can't possibly be Christian if I don't believe it.
Ahh, don't believe that. You're right, it doesn't have to do with salvation, and you're not going to go to hell for something so silly. I'm not sure if I believe the bible is infallible or not. But there are some things that definitely bring that into questioning. Don't worry about it! :hug:

[elsbeth]

Ahh, don't believe that. You're right, it doesn't have to do with salvation, and you're not going to go to hell for something so silly. I'm not sure if I believe the bible is infallible or not. But there are some things that definitely bring that into questioning. Don't worry about it! :hug:
I wasn't worried. I was just saying that some other people have told me that- sometimes very forcefully.
I KNOW my relationship with God is secure. And it's God's assurance I depend on.
But thanks for the thought.

[PastorMikeJ]

because we take our eyes off of God and put them on man..

[jesusxchick]

Yep :thumbsup:
You know you bring up another good point here, how we're all at CF for different reasons.
I think we have to keep that in mind too when people reply to us on the boards.

I personally AM here to debate - thats my main reason for being here - I enjoy fellowship alot too. :hug:
Others like you are here more for enjoyment & fellowship & stuff like that.
& there's nothing wrong with EITHER reason - we just are coming from different angles.

People like me tend to think analytically & turn things to debate/discussion form (which seems dry & noncaring to many LOL) But it's not. Just different types of personalities & characters. That's what makes the world go round.

I just hope this thread doesn't start BASHING & pointing fingers at Christians for bickering-- becuz that would be contrary to the thread's title & call for unity in Christ.

I hope it's used to fellowship & enjoy each other in our differences!! :amen:

May God Unite those who are His together in a spirit of LOVE for the brethren (family of God) :angel:
1Jo 3:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo003.html#14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

Very true. People are here for different reasons and sometimes it's hard to really mash it up in a peaceful way without stepping on someone's toes. :P

I hope it doesn't turn into a thread like that either. I was actually thinking about that last night. This thread isn't to point fingers, but more to let it be known that we shouldn't bicker about these things, but use God's word in a more constructive way.

Amen! We are to love each other as Jesus loves us. We're all at fault with things, so even when we discuss stuff like this I think it helps us as well to grow in fellowship and closer to God through asking Him to change us.

[- DRA -]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?

I wonder the opposite ... Why do people not sound a warning when the wolf in sheep's clothing is among us? I suspect they do not recognize the wolf for what it is.

And, I also suspect that "many" who profess to love the Lord and faithfully serve Him are NOT doing so. Therefore, they should be warned before facing the Lord in judgment.

See Matthew 7:13-27.

Will everyone be pleased to hear such things? Nope. However, Jesus did speak them, right? And, therefore, we really should consider them, right? I think so. Frankly, I don't necessarily like being the "bad guy" who encourages folks to consider whether or not what they believe and practice is really in accordance to God's will.
But, it has to be done ... sometimes.

Liberality is not always wrong i.e. (KJV) 1 Cor. 16:3 and 2 Cor. 8:2. However, liberality in matters that God has condemned or has specified exactly just what He expects is a different matter.

To me, Galatians 5:14-15 is a sobering thought that I need to keep in mind. However, I also need to be careful and not overlook the previous points that the apostle Paul made in that epistle e.g. 3:1, 5:12. And, we also shouldn't overlook points Paul makes later in the letter e.g. 5:19-21, 6:7-8.

Yes, some things really are a big deal. Too big to be ignored ... and big enough to loose one's own soul over by endorsing or approving of that which is wrong (2 John 9-11). No, everything doesn't fall into this category.

You are correct. God's people are supposed to be united. God's intent is not that His people be divided (1 Cor. 1:10). However, the Corinthians were divided. The answer to their problems? Focus on the Lord. They were baptized in His name, not in the preacher's name. I think folks forget sometimes that the Lord is in charge. The church is His. And, He made the rules (law) for us to live by. And, it is not our business to make rules where He hasn't made any. We just need to respect and reverence the ones that are there.

Why do folks fight so much? I don't know that there is one answer that will cover all situations. Clearly, we can bend and make allowances for each other in certain matters i.e. Romans 14, but not in others i.e. Acts 15.

[fishon]

Just look around the forum at how many threads there are and have been about the inerrancy/infallibility issue. I don't believe that the Bible IS inerrant/infallible, and I have been told that I must, therefore, be worshipping a "false god".
I assure you, I have taken Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior, I am a sincere Christian. This issue is NOT a salvation issue. It doesn't appear as an article of faith in ANY of the early church creeds. It Does NOT even appear in the articles of Christian Forum as something one must profess to be considered a CHristian. Many churches (denominations) do NOT have it as part of their doctrine. It is a matter of personal faith.
But still people claim that I can't possibly be Christian if I don't believe it.

elsbeth,
When you state: "I don't believe that the Bible is inerrant/infallible...," you are opening up a big can of worms. Yes, we have to interrpute many scriptures, but study and prayer helps greatly to lead us to proper understanding.

elsbeth, if you came upon someone that says they are Christian, but they teach that there are many ways to heaven [the Father], and you tell them that John 14:6 says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me," but they say, "I don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant/infallible Word of God." How would you answer them?
fishon

[JJtheJETplane]

Scripture can be bent in any way that one wishes. Even an Atheist can make scripture say what he wants. Same with a Mormon or an Islamic person. This is why i can agree with the fact that there are enemies among the church in every aspect of it. We have Scientific churches all around and we have others that profess great words of wisdom through the name God, and yet they are not true Christians. Churches fail because they strive to be better than others. Debate among Christians is an enemy attack in our midst yet no one can seem to understand it. The strongest tool that Satan has against us is our interpretation of things. And the fact that we are all different. And so to one person you might have to go to a priest to confess your sins, and to another you have to pray to God for forgiveness. Same as with the verse "Upon this rock i build my church" and so what if he just so happened to be pointing at Peter or whatever...no one comes to the Father except through Him, and that Him is Jesus Christ. All Christians need to learn that arguing isn't going to win souls over into Heaven, and neither is competition. The only thing that will win a soul out of the pits of Hell is the ability to show compassion and mercy to those who have not been shown it in its true nature. And then to see in us what they are to blind to see by themselves and that is that God is the one true God and through Him all things are possible, and true happiness can be found.
God Bless You All
John

[Nadiine]

Scripture can be bent in any way that one wishes. Even an Atheist can make scripture say what he wants. Same with a Mormon or an Islamic person. This is why i can agree with the fact that there are enemies among the church in every aspect of it. We have Scientific churches all around and we have others that profess great words of wisdom through the name God, and yet they are not true Christians. Churches fail because they strive to be better than others. Debate among Christians is an enemy attack in our midst yet no one can seem to understand it. The strongest tool that Satan has against us is our interpretation of things. And the fact that we are all different. And so to one person you might have to go to a priest to confess your sins, and to another you have to pray to God for forgiveness. Same as with the verse "Upon this rock i build my church" and so what if he just so happened to be pointing at Peter or whatever...no one comes to the Father except through Him, and that Him is Jesus Christ. All Christians need to learn that arguing isn't going to win souls over into Heaven, and neither is competition. The only thing that will win a soul out of the pits of Hell is the ability to show compassion and mercy to those who have not been shown it in its true nature. And then to see in us what they are to blind to see by themselves and that is that God is the one true God and through Him all things are possible, and true happiness can be found.
God Bless You All
John
Well, i guess it turned to debate anyways - time to leap in head first? lol

Listen , it isnt' love MINUS discussion - IT'S LOVE WITH DISCUSSION.

Why do we keep with this either/or worldview? We show love and CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH as Paul taught AND exampled.

I've learned quite a bit thru these debates; from both people i agree & disagree with.
We can take alot from debates without having to be fully "converted" to their views & without killing each other. :blush:

Sure they can do some harm - but so can keeping silent when we should speak up.
:angel:

I guess fellowship is best left in the games/blessings areas. :sorry: :holy:

[elsbeth]

elsbeth, if you came upon someone that says they are Christian, but they teach that there are many ways to heaven [the Father], and you tell them that John 14:6 says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me," but they say, "I don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant/infallible Word of God." How would you answer them?
fishon
I would ask them what being a Christian means to them, what has been their experience. If they aren't really Christian then it is all academic anyway. I would talk to them about a personal relationship with God through Jesus. If they ARE Christian then I would talk to them about how they became Christian, wasn't it through Jesus? So wouldn't that be the way for other people to come to God, also?
Most people who question the inerrancy/infallibility are like me, they don't discard the whole Bible. They question certain parts. I question that parts of the OT are actually, literally, historically correct. But I can still see them as allegory, as spiritual truth, even if not literal history. This doesn't affect my faith in God.
The "all or nothing/slippery slope" argument has never been convincing to me, at all. The workings of God in my life in in the lives of those around me confirms the important parts of scripture, so why would I doubt it all? The parts I doubt make no difference to my faith.

[Telrunya]

I would ask them what being a Christian means to them, what has been their experience. If they aren't really Christian then it is all academic anyway. I would talk to them about a personal relationship with God through Jesus. If they ARE Christian then I would talk to them about how they became Christian, wasn't it through Jesus? So wouldn't that be the way for other people to come to God, also?
Most people who question the inerrancy/infallibility are like me, they don't discard the whole Bible. They question certain parts. I question that parts of the OT are actually, literally, historically correct. But I can still see them as allegory, as spiritual truth, even if not literal history. This doesn't affect my faith in God.
The "all or nothing/slippery slope" argument has never been convincing to me, at all. The workings of God in my life in in the lives of those around me confirms the important parts of scripture, so why would I doubt it all? The parts I doubt make no difference to my faith.
It does make a difference in a lot of other people's faith though. Scripture is inspired by God, thats why it's so coherent after having more than 60 authors and being compiled over 2000 years. There is no question that some of it is allegory. Even though SoS says deer or fauns the writer was definitely referring to something else. Most of it isn't though and has been upheld by archeology. The finding of the city of Ur (where Abraham was from) for instance.
For some, the slippery slope is very real. We see examples all the time of people picking and choosing scripture while discarding the rest. Thats how things such as the prosperity movement gets started. On the flip side I would say that many who discount some scripture in light of say evolution should do more studying into the opposition to evolution before simply agreeing with some supposedly "devote christian" scientist and throwing out the book of Genesis. I would even go so far as to suggest that the God who invented the laws of physics (which by the way refute evolution: see thermodynamics) could easily step outside those laws and do as He pleases. All in all I would, for one, be very reluctant indeed to say that the Bible isn't inerrant/infallible. I might say I wonder about some areas but making that statement is a pretty big bite for anyone to swallow.

[Nadiine]

It does make a difference in a lot of other people's faith though. Scripture is inspired by God, thats why it's so coherent after having more than 60 authors and being compiled over 2000 years. There is no question that some of it is allegory. Even though SoS says deer or fauns the writer was definitely referring to something else. Most of it isn't though and has been upheld by archeology. The finding of the city of Ur (where Abraham was from) for instance.
For some, the slippery slope is very real. We see examples all the time of people picking and choosing scripture while discarding the rest. Thats how things such as the prosperity movement gets started. On the flip side I would say that many who discount some scripture in light of say evolution should do more studying into the opposition to evolution before simply agreeing with some supposedly "devote christian" scientist and throwing out the book of Genesis. I would even go so far as to suggest that the God who invented the laws of physics (which by the way refute evolution: see thermodynamics) could easily step outside those laws and do as He pleases. All in all I would, for one, be very reluctant indeed to say that the Bible isn't inerrant/infallible. I might say I wonder about some areas but making that statement is a pretty big bite for anyone to swallow.

I like your post - you know, there are MANY serious, detailed books that anyone could pick up on how our Bible came to be.

Instead of sincere searching, people just discard it. One book I have on it, is so large & detailed, with so many aspects, that I couldn't even absorb it all & quit reading it.
It's fascinating, but very intensive. What I see happening is people that don't WANT IT to be inerrant & prefer to cherry pick what they like & dont' like to suit personal preferences.

Basically, the Bible is guilty before proven innocent. :help:

[jsimms615]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?
I think people just get in the flesh and respond without thinking to others. Just because we are believers doesn't mean we are always walking in the Spirit.
Some people aren't christians but say they are also.
Other times, people get legalistic and that really can quench the spirit also.
J

[Chococat]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?

Personally that is the main reason why I tend to avoid online debates especially the interdenominational ones. In my experience they usually generate a lot more heat than light and I just don't have the stomach for all the mud slinging that so often happens.:sigh: I guess some debates are done in a Christlike manner but I suspect they are the exception rather than the rule.:(

[christianmomof3]

I think the bickering and debate is a result of too much self and not enough Christ.

here is a hymn I like:

Christ My Very Peace Is



1. Christ my very peace is
And my life within;
Sharing in the spirit
I unite with Him.


Chorus:

Following the Spirit,
Living in the Lord,
Life He doth supply me
And His peace afford.


2. To the Lord belonging,
Bound I’ll never be,
For the law of life now
Sets me wholly free.


3. Minding flesh no longer,
I’ll the spirit mind;
Self-will never follow,
But the Spirit’s find.


4. Christ within empow’rs me
Spiritual to be!
E’en my body quick’ning
By His pow’r in me.


5. Spirit with the spirit
Witnesseth in one,
I’m of God begotten,
Heir with Christ the Son.

http://www.hymns.net/lyrics/index.htm

[jesusxchick]

I think the bickering and debate is a result of too much self and not enough Christ.

here is a hymn I like:

Christ My Very Peace Is



1. Christ my very peace is
And my life within;
Sharing in the spirit
I unite with Him.


Chorus:

Following the Spirit,
Living in the Lord,
Life He doth supply me
And His peace afford.


2. To the Lord belonging,
Bound I’ll never be,
For the law of life now
Sets me wholly free.


3. Minding flesh no longer,
I’ll the spirit mind;
Self-will never follow,
But the Spirit’s find.


4. Christ within empow’rs me
Spiritual to be!
E’en my body quick’ning
By His pow’r in me.


5. Spirit with the spirit
Witnesseth in one,
I’m of God begotten,
Heir with Christ the Son.

http://www.hymns.net/lyrics/index.htm
Very good point! It is a matter of focusing too much on our own opinions and interpretations instead of focusing on Jesus and what He says.

That's a beautiful hymn. :)

[- DRA -]

Scripture can be bent in any way that one wishes.

Agreed. "As also in all his [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (NASV)."

Even an Atheist can make scripture say what he wants.

Good point - "... There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).

Same with a Mormon or an Islamic person. This is why i can agree with the fact that there are enemies among the church in every aspect of it. We have Scientific churches all around and we have others that profess great words of wisdom through the name God, and yet they are not true Christians. Churches fail because they strive to be better than others. Debate among Christians is an enemy attack in our midst yet no one can seem to understand it. The strongest tool that Satan has against us is our interpretation of things. And the fact that we are all different. And so to one person you might have to go to a priest to confess your sins, and to another you have to pray to God for forgiveness. Same as with the verse "Upon this rock i build my church" and so what if he just so happened to be pointing at Peter or whatever...no one comes to the Father except through Him, and that Him is Jesus Christ. All Christians need to learn that arguing isn't going to win souls over into Heaven, and neither is competition. The only thing that will win a soul out of the pits of Hell is the ability to show compassion and mercy to those who have not been shown it in its true nature. And then to see in us what they are to blind to see by themselves and that is that God is the one true God and through Him all things are possible, and true happiness can be found.
God Bless You All
John

You have brought up an interesting point about "interpreting" Scripture. I suspect this very thing is involved in many of the disagreements among those who profess to follow Christ. To get right to the point, Jesus taught us a basic aspect of Bible interpretation in Matthew 4:5-7 and Matthew 22:23-33. Anyone can go to a particular passage of Scripture and throw out what we think it means and/or how we think it applies. The devil did that. And, the Sadducees also did it. However, it each case, both were wrong. How do we know? Jesus points out the understanding proposed in each case contradicted other passages. Or, phrased differently, He taught us the truth will harmonize with other passages. Take the part of Matthew 16:18 that you quoted ("Upon this rock i build my church"). If the church was built upon Peter, then other passages harmonize with that thought. And, if the church was founded upon Christ, then other passages will harmonize with that understanding i.e. 1 Cor. 3:10-12, Eph. 2:20. In essence, the Bible is its own best commentary ... if we keep an open mind and are willing to reverence and respect what God says to us through the words He inspired. :idea:

[HopeBforJC]

Scripture can be bent in any way that one wishes. Even an Atheist can make scripture say what he wants. Same with a Mormon or an Islamic person. This is why i can agree with the fact that there are enemies among the church in every aspect of it. We have Scientific churches all around and we have others that profess great words of wisdom through the name God, and yet they are not true Christians. Churches fail because they strive to be better than others. Debate among Christians is an enemy attack in our midst yet no one can seem to understand it. The strongest tool that Satan has against us is our interpretation of things. And the fact that we are all different. And so to one person you might have to go to a priest to confess your sins, and to another you have to pray to God for forgiveness. Same as with the verse "Upon this rock i build my church" and so what if he just so happened to be pointing at Peter or whatever...no one comes to the Father except through Him, and that Him is Jesus Christ. All Christians need to learn that arguing isn't going to win souls over into Heaven, and neither is competition. The only thing that will win a soul out of the pits of Hell is the ability to show compassion and mercy to those who have not been shown it in its true nature. And then to see in us what they are to blind to see by themselves and that is that God is the one true God and through Him all things are possible, and true happiness can be found.
God Bless You All
John
Wow, definitely a good post and good points. Interpretation is definitely obviously the reason why we debate. If we all interpreted it the same the only thing we'd have left to debate about is what song we should play during worship. Should we be contemp or (oh whats the word???) conservative?

None the less, great post :thumbsup:

[calidog]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?
To answer the question honestly:

It's our human nature

[JJtheJETplane]

To answer the question honestly:

It's our human nature


You're right in the sence that it is our human nature. But even Jesus himself was human. He had the same temptations that we have. He knew what it was like to walk down the street and be looked apon as someone with no value at all, along with much value. Yet he did not give into these things. He performed miracles, still does. But he was human...he was also God's son. Even he said that we could perform miracles if we just had faith the size of a mustard seed. That is pretty small, and yet you don't see many people with that ability. But here is a point. When are miracles proclaimed in the name of the Lord? When you do something what is your first thought? Is it oh i did it, rather than thank you God for every breath of hard work you put into my body. Even i catch myself not thanking God for everything i have done. We all have. And yet Jesus was able to do it. And that is why he seems super human. But really his faith was the size of hundreds of mustard seeds. He gave it to the Lord, in every aspect. Now...think of this...when we say we are the Body of Christ...what does that mean to you. Well i hate to state points...but i will for the sake of thought. And to see what you might say to me about it. Christ himself was in his own body. We...are the body of christ...so alone we count for little in faith. But united...in pray, get togethers, worships....what has happened? People have been cured of cancer, they have lost their distress, the Holy Spirit fill rooms with utmost certainty. So what is the easiest way to become like more like Jesus Christ. I will tell you what i think. We need to become a real church family, and not get so spread out over a vast area of belief. After all the first churches weren't catholic buildings, or babtist conventions, or methodist gatherings. No...they were where it was safe to have one. When one was needed. The symbol was the fish, or a candle. And that is where they met. It could have been in a cave, at someones house, or in a temple. But the point is they were all gathered. And everyone rejoiced. And miracles were performed. But that is just something to think about.
God Bless You all
John

[linssue55]

Why is there so much fighting and debate between Christians? No matter what we always seem to find SOMETHING to disagree on. Why? Why is it such a big deal if someone is a liberal or a conservative christian? Is it really that big of a deal? Come on, it doesn't make sense. We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, we're supposed to be united. Why do we fight so much?

Because this is the devil's world, and we all have old sin natures, and MANY don't know the true written word of God.

[thenewageriseth]

You're right there is a lot of bickering. This site and outside of it. And for myself, sometimes my ideas sound unorthodox to some people, enough for them to deem it "evil or demonic" when all they gotta do is do research on the subject(s). Not everything outsude of Christianity is demonic or evil. Come on, that's narrow-minded, folks. :doh: Everyone should be equal, no matter how unorthodox our beliefs and ideas may be. Some of those come from our upbringing. Some of us can't help it-and anyway, as long as those ideas of fantasia and inspiration don't hurt anyone, they should be fine. People need to stop the hateration. Word! :amen:

[tonysma]

The end approaches and satan is stiring up trouble...He wants as many as he can get..It isn't only on this christian forum that God is discussed.... Everybody, has heard the word...They choose to change the book to suit their lifestyles...We all know what is right and wrong...even down to the little ones.....there is no need to agrue about Christ...They have all been told, they are responsible for their own destiny....

[thenewageriseth]

Yeah, but sometimes the right things aren't the right things for certain people. Not everyone is the same. Some people can't just change themselves if they don't want to. I myself have a hard time trying to accept that following the Bible 100% is for my own good. I mean following it strictly, word for word. That's hard, G. *whew*

[Nadiine]

Yeah, but sometimes the right things aren't the right things for certain people. Not everyone is the same. Some people can't just change themselves if they don't want to. I myself have a hard time trying to accept that following the Bible 100% is for my own good. I mean following it strictly, word for word. That's hard, G. *whew*

you don't have to believe the bible is 100% true to change bad lifestyles or patterns.
People who reject God still know right from wrong. (romans 1:18-32)

IF one has Christ in them (who IS their strength), then all things ARE possible.
That's just the point of salvation - we attain power to overcome sin thru Him. NOT on our own. :clap:

Further, as believers, we have conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit within us. God is our spiritual guide and power to overcome.
We aren't to remain in our bondages of sin (sin IS bondage).
:angel:

[thenewageriseth]

you don't have to believe the bible is 100% true to change bad lifestyles or patterns.
People who reject God still know right from wrong. (romans 1:18-32)

That's true. I may have said that for lack of words. :sorry:
:doh:
IF one has Christ in them (who IS their strength), then all things ARE possible.
That's just the point of salvation - we attain power to overcome sin thru Him. NOT on our own. :clap:
I think that's true, too. I say "think" cuz my relationship is not that strong or nonexistent.


Further, as believers, we have conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit within us. God is our spiritual guide and power to overcome.
We aren't to remain in our bondages of sin (sin IS bondage).
:angel:

Ah, yes, I understand some sins I need to rid myself of. Some of my beliefs and ideas may not be evil, but most people (like me serious devout cousin) may think they're evil, but they don't really understand what it's like to be in my shoes. Not even my cousin.

[11MAN]

Our fallen nature of selfishness and our carnal minds which are not subject to the Law of God, as Paul explains in Roman's is the cause for differences. Jesus said He did not come to bring peace but a sword. Although he himself is the Prince of peace, he came to divide his flock from those who refuse to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord. This is the spirit of the world and the spirit of antichrist. Sadly we are in what Paul warned Timothy of as perilous times. The spirit of antichrist is growing stronger and deception compromise and unfaithfulness to the truth of the gospel is growing stronger in the church, let alone society. There is only one truth and one Holy Spirit, sadly many people believe there are many ways to serve Jesus and many even deny the power of the Spirit of God. Paul said to turn away from such people.
Truly GOD is LOVE, and LOVE never fails. That does not mean we should fellowship with darkness, just for the sake of peace.


May we individually work out our salvation with fear and trembling and receive the crown of life.

In Christ
J

[Nadiine]

Our fallen nature of selfishness and our carnal minds which are not subject to the Law of God, as Paul explains in Roman's is the cause for differences. Jesus said He did not come to bring peace but a sword. Although he himself is the Prince of peace, he came to divide his flock from those who refuse to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord. This is the spirit of the world and the spirit of antichrist. Sadly we are in what Paul warned Timothy of as perilous times. The spirit of antichrist is growing stronger and deception compromise and unfaithfulness to the truth of the gospel is growing stronger in the church, let alone society. There is only one truth and one Holy Spirit, sadly many people believe there are many ways to serve Jesus and many even deny the power of the Spirit of God. Paul said to turn away from such people.
Truly GOD is LOVE, and LOVE never fails. That does not mean we should fellowship with darkness, just for the sake of peace.


Amen to that last line. :thumbsup:

That's definitely one way of looking at it - but I "fight" (bicker) FOR TRUTH OF GOD to be promoted.
I try to pick important issues & keep out of the petty stuff that really doesn't 'harm' anyone spiritually.

& we shouldn't fight or bicker w/ people on personal levels for personal gain or attn. The NT tells us to "contend earnestly for the faith" that was entrusted to us.
AS CHRISTIANS (and ambassadors of Christ), it is our duty to witness truth and contend against what is false when necessary.

I don't LIMIT all my focus to contending, I love to encourage & support fellow brothers & sisters too. It's just as important imo. :angel: