Eating Kosher (Again) [Archive]

SonWorshipper

7th July 2003, 10:27 AM

Clean and unclean animals were taken on the Ark. Was Noah Jew or Gentile? ;)

We are called ( we= Jew and Gentile believers ) to be a Holy people unto the Lord, called out, different from the world and eating by His laws of what is food for us and what is not aptly applies here.

When talking "eating Krushut" we are talking what is clean and what is unclean in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore we should interpret these passages with that in mind:

Galatians 5:l9 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness.”

1 Thessalonians 4:7 “For G-d has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.”

Colossians 2:16,17 “Let no man make a decision for you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days. These are a shadow of things coming for the body of Messiah.”

This scripture does not make it okay to break the commandments of G-d. Quite the opposite, it calls upon us not to allow man’s logic to manipulate our thinking against G-d’s will. It also notifies us that these things are shadows that are to be enjoyed by Messiah’s body until He comes again. Then we will appreciate them even more!

1 Timothy 4:1-5 “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron . . . Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meat, which G-d has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of G-d is good, and nothing to be refused, if it is received with thanksgiving and (if it) is sanctified (made holy) by the Word of G-d and interaction (with Him).”

To command to abstain from meat means to force vegetarianism, which would be an unbiblical command. The Word tells us which meats are food and which are not. G-d has sanctified certain animals for meat, and others are Still considered unclean. The meats being talked about are those approved by scripture, which are sanctified by the Word. That is how they are “sanctified” (made holy, set apart, clean). So too we are Holy, set apart and clean. How can we be set apart from the world if we do as they do?

So, only those creatures which are considered clean according to the Word are good for food. When understood on the basis of foundational truth, this scripture clearly does not make all meats acceptable for food.

Think righteously, would G-d call the things which He commanded Israel to do “doctrines of devils”? It doesn’t make sense to suppose that this scripture speaks against eating kosher, which to do is according to the commandment of G-d Himself.

Those that are Gentile and have bound themselves to believing Jews are to do the same. Acts 15 is mis-interpreted many times because it has been seen through gentile anti-Semitic eyes. It is not calling for separation but rather a oneness, addressing how the gentiles may interact with the Jews without offence. This was so they could come together at Oneg and not be offensive because of ignorance.

That is not to say that it should be forced upon the Christian Church, but on those who have been called out and to join their Jewish brothers and sisters in worship and living in a Messianic manner, we can't be one if the Jews are eating kosher and the gentiles are not. ;) that would be putting up a wall of partition that Yeshua came to break down.

Those who wish to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in all ways are a called out people to Him and should be echad with each other as we are Echad with him.

One heart, One mind and one G-d! :hug:

Shamash Of Yeshua

7th July 2003, 08:03 PM

Shalom SonWorshipper,

Great post and very informative.

Shalom and Shalom,

Tag

Domi_Adsum_05

8th July 2003, 03:54 PM

{Whoops}

SonWorshipper

8th July 2003, 04:46 PM

What "Whoops"?

P4I what is your understanding of this, your opinion?

SonWorshipper

8th July 2003, 05:22 PM

I was just looking at the bottom of this page and found where we had this discussion before but it was never settled. Also P4I you were going to tell us your views on it in there and you never did ;) So.............. What? do you need an invitation already? :D j/k

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=29043

For those of you interested click on the above link. CharlesY2K and Shimon had some very excellent posts in there that I am in full agreement with. I have learned the correct interpretation of Acts 10 and it falls in line perfectly with what Charles posted. We gentiles have been taught an anti-Semetic "White-washed" version of that scripture and really need to under stand the true meaning from a Jewish standpoint, afterall it was written by a Jew about the Jews ( Messianic ones!).

Domi_Adsum_05

8th July 2003, 08:35 PM

What "Whoops"?

I replied before I read the thread all the way through. Whoops.

SonWorshipper

8th July 2003, 08:47 PM

Ahhhhhhh! OK, NP , chime on in with your view! :D

RobSav

8th July 2003, 09:11 PM

Pray4Isrel

8th July 2003, 10:18 PM

Well the reason I asked was because I want to learn more about my obligations. But for the record, I have not eaten prok since 1997 - when I returned from Israel the first time. I felt that I needed to be a living example and I wanted not to cause a stumbling block for my Jewish Bro's and Sis's. However, I do eat seafood occasionally. But no, I don't eat pork at all.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 04:18 AM

Food for thought (pun intended)...

A) Scientists have stated Pork is one of the most unhealthy of meats.

B) Is Pork then bad for a Jew specifcally to eat, or is it bad for humans to eat? Physiologically, which is it?

More later...
Yafet.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 04:20 AM

in the same light...

A) Dieticians say Shellfish is said to be very bad for the human body.

B) As the Torah teaches not to eat shellfish... Is shellfish then bad only for a Jew specifcally to eat, or is it bad for humans to eat?

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 04:25 AM

and one last one....

A) Gynocologists say it is unhealthy for a woman to have sexual intercourse during her monthly cycle. It causes various micro-organisms to swell in population, among other things....

B) According to the laws of Niddah (mitzvot pertaining to a woman's cycle) in the Torah... does this pertain to where both spouses are Jewish, or can it still apply when only one spouse is Jewish, or does it benefit anyone who's human to refrain from having sex with their partner during the time when the female is on her monthly flow?

I hope with these few examples you see a common theme developing...

Again, I'll return later with a few comments.

Shalom,
Yafet.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 04:26 AM

*** accidental double post ***

moderators, feel free to delete this post.

-Yafet.

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 10:41 AM

[...] I do eat seafood occasionally. But no, I don't eat pork at all.\

What about lobster, or other "unclean" foods?

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 11:03 AM

Scientists have stated Pork is one of the most unhealthy of meats.

The only time I have ever heard that is when someone is trying to make a scientific case for kashrut. Can you present any studies which say that a lean cut of pork, prepared properly and safely, is any less healthy than other meats? And specify what is meant within the study by "unhealthy."
And if pork is less healthy than other meats, and that supports kashrut, I would also expect to find that lobster, catfish, and rabbit (all "unclean" animals) are equally unhealthy. Is this the case?

Everyone but Orthodox Jews seems to give pork some kind of special status as the most un-Kosher, or unclean of animals, but that's simply not supported by Scripture.

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 12:22 PM

Dieticians say Shellfish is said to be very bad for the human body.

Why?
I know that some of the toxins we release into the waters are held within the flesh of some fish (such as tuna, which my wife was advised against eating whilst pregnant), but shellfish in particular? When cooked well to kill all microorganisms?
What about catfish - another "unclean" fish?

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 12:25 PM

Gynocologists say it is unhealthy for a woman to have sexual intercourse during her monthly cycle. It causes various micro-organisms to swell in population, among other things....

I have never heard this, even back when my first wife (Liberal Feminist) had me very educated and involved in her gynecological health.

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 12:28 PM

My thoughts:

1.) Religious Jews today follow a system of Kashrut which is extrabiblical - based on Talmudic rules rather than simply what is stated within Scripture.

2.) Followers of Christ are not bound by the Kosher laws.

3.) If you are going to adhere to the OT food laws, do it out of a sense of obedience to God, not by trying to make science support the "unclean animal" concept, because it breaks down.

Just my thoughts, not to criticise others...

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 01:37 PM

I) Pork:

Allow me to clarify. It is one of the most unhealthy of 'mass-produced' meats. That is, of the meats that are farm grazed.

There are reams of information on how unhealthy unclean meat is, especially pork. Often there is a link to cancer! In the book "Bible Dietetics and Natural Agriculture" by Dr. N.S. Hanoka, Leviticus 26: 16 is quoted: the wasting disease, fever, and the botch of Egypt is none other than the CANCER of today! In a nine year study in Turkey, a predominately Moslem country where no pork is allowed, only 2.7% of hospitalized citizens were there on extended care due to cancer. Compare that to America, where pork is one of the largest selling meat products, and 12.3% of hostpitalized citizens are under extended care due to cancer.

Another study done while I was in college compared the specific types of bacteria that inherrently grow in pork, beef, and chicken. The scientists left a section of each type of meat in an enclosed container to see what types of bacteria were inherrent. After two weeks, the chicken had grown a bit of mold, and the beef looked a bit worse. However, the pork was infested with maggots, and entirely covered with green. The bacteria were then tested, and the two types found on beef and chicken could easily be killed at low tempatures in a conventional oven. However, the bacteria on the pork had to be cooked at extreme tempatures. All in all the study concluded that pigs inherrently allowed maggots to grow in it's meat, and the bacteria was of a much more dangerous quality.

Two more comments on pork...
a) it is some of the most fatty meat when compared to any other farm grazed animal produced in mass.
b) The reason why a cow is clean compared to a pig is that it chews the cud. As the cow regergitates the food it's eaten from one stomach to the next, various toxins are removed from it's food, and thus the food it eats is filtered before it becomes a part of its meat. As well, a cow eats much healthier than a pig, which all the more, it's meat would be healtheir than that of pig meat.

II) Shellfish...

Shellfish are bottom feeders. Their meat is composed of the poop, toxins, and other extremeties of the sea. The chlorestyrol levels found in shellfish are dangerously high. The nutritional value of shellfish are at the extreme bottom of the meat chart. There should be no question about this, and it's quite ridiculous that anyone would make an argument that it is good for your body. Every diet book warns against it, every dietician (who advise people who are not just on a 'diet') will tell how bad they are for your system. In otherwords, it's not just about micro-organisms. It's the very meat itself which is bad for you.

The same applies to any bottom feeder... e.g. catfish, lobster, crab. The list goes on and on.

Shellfish also are known to have stronger stomach linings in order to consume such toxins on the bottom of the sea. The same idea applies to vultures. They are able to consume dead animals, where the meat of a carcass would normally be fatal to a human, because their stomach lining is quite strong and can handle decomposing flesh. The meat they eat then becomes a part of their meat. Our bodies are not equipped to handle such things, thus vultures are not healthy for a human to eat (again, another part of Kashrut from the Torah).

All in all, with the above two points, if one were stranded on an island, the perfect survival handbook would be the Torah. You would be able to stay fit and healthy without concern to what foods were dangerous, and what were 'ok' for human consumption. While man may be able to 'live' on unkosher food, it is not healthy for the body and in the long run will only cause more damage and harm.

III) Menstral cycle and sex

mature adult themes ahead:

Did you know that most hospitals today circumcise baby boys? It has been found that circumcision is healthier for both men and women. You see, under the folds of foreskin, bacteria can grow. It is dangerous for a man as he can easily get infected if he does not properly clean himself more than once daily in the folds of skin. It is also dangerous for a woman during intercourse as the spread of this bacteria can cause many diseases and/or infection in the womans uterus, vag*nal lining, and ovarian tubes. Thus the Torah is upheld scientifically by the medical community in this way.

The same idea is applied to a menstrating woman. Many will say a woman can have sex during her cycle. However, this extra flow of tissue, blood, and toxins can often be set off balance by intercourse. A man must thoroughly cleanse himself in order to keep the bacteria at bay from growing and spreading on his genitals. As well, a woman's interrior lining is designed specifically to handle this monthly flow in a delicate balance. Often when a woman has intercourse during her flow, her period will suddenly cease (I can provide lots of material on this, but I'll simply provide one proof below for the sake of time and space). When this happens, her body does not flush out the rest of the tissue, toxins, and blood properly and bacteria can dangerously fester inside her body.

the following was taken from www.personal-sexual-health.com

Question: My husband and I had sex during my menstrual cycle. Right after the sex, my period just stopped, and I wasn't bleeding anymore. Why does this happen?

Answer: When it is time for your period to begin, the endometrium (uterine lining) produces chemicals called prostaglandins. These hormone-like substances occur throughout the body and play many roles. In the uterus, their release provokes muscular contractions that constrict uterine blood vessels. This causes the uterus to shed the endometrium, starting the menstrual period.

Prostaglandins are also responsible for the uterine muscle contractions that some women feel as menstrual cramps. When a man ejaculates, his body also produces prostaglandins, which are released in the semen. Seminal plasma prostaglandins, entering the woman, can intensify the uterine contractions already occurring with her period.

This effect can be heightened by the contractions of orgasm. These intense uterine contractions can hasten the expulsion of the dying uterine lining cells. In some cases, if the remainder of the endometrium is shed at once, this can complete the woman's period.

so, to conclude with my thoughts:
1) I can take time and show that the 'religious' form of Kashrut, taken from the Talmud, is based in fact upon the Torah. It is to outsiders who have no intimate knowledge of Talmud and have general misconceptions that would say otherwise.

2) You have left your point totally unverified and without scripture. There is no need to address this point until you actually show something biblically.

3) Science all the more proves that scripture was divinely inspired. The scientific proofs that biblical texts (specifically the Torah) are valid and divine make for an amazing study.

Shalom,
Yafet.

SonWorshipper

9th July 2003, 02:09 PM

I totally agree with you Simchat, also the laws of niddah I am studying and my husband and I agree that they are made perfect by our creator that made us and to not follow we would be losing something great that he instructed us on. I was thinking of starting a post on that just today, I think we probably should to keep from derailing this topic. One other thought that I had when studying all the "treif" animals is that they all Bird, mammal and fish all had one thing in common from what I could see, was that in one form or another they ate blood. What do you think on that?

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 02:12 PM

Often the Jews were persecuted in history merely because they were healthier people. I know this sounds ridiculous, but follow me here...
The Jews were blamed for various plagues that spread through Europe and other countries. They were seen as witches because they didn't get as sick, or have as severe plague conditions. This was due to their standards of Torah living... i.e. Kosher, cleanliness, etc.

Here is a prime example:

in 1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans.
As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five
years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for
its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews.

In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000;

Rue Brule...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned.
In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.

(the list goes on and on and on... sad isn't it)

Shalom,
Yafet.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 02:15 PM

Shalom SonWorshipper,

Very perceptive.. I think you've hit it right on. Essentially, anything that eats blood is unclean. If you notice, any animal that chews the cud and has a split hoof, they are vegitarians. However, this rule of thumb doesn't necessarily apply to under the sea.

Shalom,
Yafet.

SonWorshipper

9th July 2003, 02:16 PM

Yes, it is :( and saddly it still goes on today. I remember reading an article back a few months that said that there are now some European countries that don't allow Kosher slaughtering houses in their countries any longer, saying that it is "inhumane" can you imagine, protecting animals over humans, on the secular side and on the spiritual, denying the Jews from following ancient laws that G-d gave them? Uggg :(

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 02:17 PM

SonWorshipper,

I'd love to discuss the mitzvot Niddah. Such beauty and teaching behind those mitzvot as well. I'm with you though, a seperate thread would be best.

-Yafet.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 02:18 PM

Yes, it is quite disgusting when the life of a precious human is regarded as less that of an animal.

/sighs/

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 02:22 PM

Well, that was a long post, and I'll not have time right now to address it all. Just a few comments:

1.) Maggots are not bacteria. Maggots are not "inherently" found in pork. Maggots hatch from eggs laid by flies. This would seem to inidicate a particularly poor methodology on the part of the researcher conducting that experiment: the meat samples were each subjected to different types of handling, exposure, etc. We certainly all know that maggots will grow in any type of meat, if flies lay their eggs in it.

2.) Here's an example of Talmudic rules: "The Torah forbids cooking meat and milk together in any form, eating such cooked products, or deriving benefit from them. As a safeguard, the Rabbis extended this prohibition to disallow the eating of meat and dairy products at the same meal or preparing them on the same utensils. One must wait up to six hours after eating meat products before any dairy products may be eaten. However, meat may be eaten following dairy products with the one exception of hard cheese (6 months old or more), which also requires a six hour interval. Prior to eating meat after dairy, one must eat a solid food and the mouth must be rinsed. A. Utensils:
The kosher kitchen must have two separate sets of utensils, one for meat and poultry and the other for dairy foods. There must be separate, distinct sets of pots, pans, plates and silverware.
B. Washing Dishes:
In a sink used for both meat and milk dishes and products, dishes and utensils must be placed or washed on a rack. Separate racks are to be used for meat and dairy use. "

(From: http://www.ou.org/kosher/primer.html) Quite different from the Biblical text, no?

Here are some rules from another site:
"1. Certain animals may not be eaten at all. This restriction includes the flesh, organs, eggs and milk of the forbidden animals.
2. Of the animals that may be eaten, the birds and mammals must be killed in accordance with Jewish law.
3. All blood must be drained from the meat or broiled out of it before it is eaten.
4. Certain parts of permitted animals may not be eaten.
5. Meat (the flesh of birds and mammals) cannot be eaten with dairy. Fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables and grains can be eaten with either meat or dairy. (According to some views, fish may not be eaten with meat).
6. Utensils that have come into contact with meat may not be used with dairy, and vice versa. Utensils that have come into contact with non-kosher food may not be used with kosher food. This applies only where the contact occurred while the food was hot.
7. Grape products made by non-Jews may not be eaten.

Of the "winged swarming things" (winged insects), a few are specifically permitted (Lev. 11:22), but the Sages are no longer certain which ones they are, so all have been forbidden.

One must wait a significant amount of time between eating meat and dairy. Opinions differ, and vary from three to six hours. This is because fatty residues and meat particles tend to cling to the mouth. From dairy to meat, however, one need only rinse one's mouth and eat a neutral solid like bread, unless the dairy product in question is also of a type that tends to stick in the mouth.

Stove tops and sinks routinely become non-kosher utensils, because they routinely come in contact with both meat and dairy in the presence of heat. It is necessary, therefore, to use dishpans when cleaning dishes (don't soak them directly in the sink) and to use separate spoon rests and trivets when putting things down on the stove top. Dishwashers are a kashrut problem. If you are going to use a dishwasher in a kosher home, you either need to have separate dish racks or you need to run the dishwasher in between meat and dairy loads. You should use separate towels and pot holders for meat and dairy. Routine laundering kashers such items, so you can simply launder them between using them for meat and dairy. "

(From: http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm)

I must ask whether those here who only eat kosher really abstain from Welch's Grape Juice because it is made by gentiles. And, do you really refuse to eat Chicken Parmesian because the chicken may have been "boiled in its mother's milk"? Rules of man, not God.

SonWorshipper

9th July 2003, 02:23 PM

However, this rule of thumb doesn't necessarily apply to under the sea.

How so? The shellfish for example eat whatever floats down to the bottom and that includes flesh of other eaten fish by bigger fish, hence blood.

For instance Shark is Treif and we know that blood is what attacks them the most, the birds not allowed are raptors, or scavengers, all flesh eaters.

Either way the L-rd declared what in His eyes was clean and what was to be used as food by us, basically if you compare pagan practices as far as the pig goes some may have a better understanding such as Nero, or Antiochus Epiphanies. THAT alone ought to put ANY believer off Pork for good!

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 02:31 PM

1) Allow me to use a different term than 'inherrently'... Maggots thrive in pig meat. The living body of a pig allows maggot populations without restriction. The physiological make up of a cow does not allow for maggots to thrive in it's living meat.

There, that eliminates your worries of semantics.

2) It can be argued that not mixing meat and cheese is the proper interpretation of the Torah passage. I'm not declaring this is true, but you can not say it isn't founded upon the Torah.

now...

welch's grape juice:
This was true about 7 years ago. Welch's used certain bug byproducts to color the juice dark purple. This particular dye was also used in various grape soda pops. The Kosher Union ruled against allowing the Kosher label to be placed upon these drinks.

It was a Neo-Nazi group that started the lie that Jews didn't drink Welch's because it was made by gentiles. This myth soon spread like wildfire, and antisemetic groups shouted Jew hatred at the tops of their lungs.

It's a sick lie, and I'm sorry you fell for it. I'd appreciate it if you would research your material before presenting it here on this forum. It would save us a lot of hassel of sifting through the nonsense.

-Yafet.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 02:44 PM

btw, certain grape sodas today still use these bug byproducts in their purple dye, and that's why you will see certain artificially flavored grape sodas still not labeled by the Kosher Union.

SonWorshipper

9th July 2003, 02:57 PM

Chickens give milk? :scratch: Oye!

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 03:05 PM

heheh... yeah, some sects do not allow the mixing of dairy and any bird... while others do. It all boils down to how your beit din interprets the Torah.

Considering the Torah states that the rules of a Beit Din are binding, it is wise to seek out which beit din you submit yourself to.

-Yafet.

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 03:28 PM

It was a Neo-Nazi group that started the lie that Jews didn't drink Welch's because it was made by gentiles. This myth soon spread like wildfire, and antisemetic groups shouted Jew hatred at the tops of their lungs.

It's a sick lie, and I'm sorry you fell for it. I'd appreciate it if you would research your material before presenting it here on this forum. It would save us a lot of hassel of sifting through the nonsense.

-Yafet.
Arrogance. If you read my post, I show that I did the research, and the information from the Jewish site I researched (the link in my earlier post - http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm) itself said that Jews are forbidden to drink grape products made by non-Jews. Not a neo-Nazi group.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 03:32 PM

Yes, but you didn't find the origins of the claim. That's what is important... not the source from where you heard it.

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 03:42 PM

Yes, but you didn't find the origins of the claim. That's what is important... not the source from where you heard it.

Playing games?
So, I guess the jewfaq site also was tricked into repeating a neo-nazi lie. Fine.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 03:45 PM

Let me just ask you this...

Do you honestly believe that Jews outlawed welch's simply because gentiles made it?

First, it's a ridiculous claim...
secondly, why wouldn't every other food product made by genitles be outlawed in that case? Nearly 99% of what you would find with a Kosher label on it would be outlawed.

It only takes a bit of common sense to see the outrageousness of that claim.

Moreover, there are special dietary regulations on how grapes are prepared because of these certain added ingredients that are unkosher in the process. Often glycerin is added as well, which is obviously unkosher.

However, I'll go ahead and post a few examples this for whoever's interested:

1) Strawberry Crush is certified Kosher while the Cherry and Bubble Gum Crush are not. This is because of the specific dye used in Grape Crush.

2) Certain grape liquors still use this dye, and are ruled unkosher... if I remember correctly, a particular grape schnapps is unkosher.

3) Certain Continental Brand MIGHTEE Grape Sodas are not kosher. I think this one has to do with the glycerin?

4) and finally, certain pink lemonades are not kosher because of this particular grape dye.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 03:48 PM

Playing games?
So, I guess the jewfaq site also was tricked into repeating a neo-nazi lie. Fine.

It's an old urban legand... that one is not to drink welch's grape juice because gentiles made it. Because this urban legend spread so far and wide, many Jews are unaware of it's origins. A simple investigation with the Kosher Union would show you specifically why this halacha was ordained. It has/had nothing to do with gentiles.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 03:51 PM

Many christians today still think that Jews in the dark ages would round up christian children and crush their bones into matzah meal and drink their blood at passover. This urban myth spread far and wide, and many "innocent good bible believing" christians to this day still believe that was true.

Any historian would tell you it was but another ploy to incite antisemetism.

Don't trust the source, examine origins.

simchat_torah

9th July 2003, 03:54 PM

Boy have we trailed off subject....

My original questions I pose once more. I'd like to see how everyone would respond to these:

Food for thought (pun intended)...

A) Scientists have stated Pork is one of the most unhealthy of meats.

B) Is Pork then bad for a Jew specifcally to eat, or is it bad for humans to eat? Physiologically, which is it?
====================================

A) Dieticians say Shellfish is said to be very bad for the human body.

B) As the Torah teaches not to eat shellfish... Is shellfish then bad only for a Jew specifcally to eat, or is it bad for humans to eat?

================================

A) Gynocologists say it is unhealthy for a woman to have sexual intercourse during her monthly cycle. It causes various micro-organisms to swell in population, among other things....

B) According to the laws of Niddah (mitzvot pertaining to a woman's cycle) in the Torah... does this pertain to where both spouses are Jewish, or can it still apply when only one spouse is Jewish, or does it benefit anyone who's human to refrain from having sex with their partner during the time when the female is on her monthly flow?

How would the answers to these questions affect your view of the poll at the beginning of this thread?

How is a gentile to respond to the Torah? What is a Jew's responsiblity concerning both the Torah and the gentile?

More questions to get things going...

Shalom,
Yafet.

SonWorshipper

9th July 2003, 04:18 PM

Alright I guess I have to remind those that Are not Messianic that this forum is not for debating, if you wish to debate our beliefs you must take them to IDD. This is my only "unofficial warning".

Thanks!

Let's get back to the main discussion, on

To eat Kosher or not Kosher, THAT is the question! :D

SonWorshipper

9th July 2003, 04:44 PM

Boy have we trailed off subject....

My original questions I pose once more. I'd like to see how everyone would respond to these:

How would the answers to these questions affect your view of the poll at the beginning of this thread?

How is a gentile to respond to the Torah? What is a Jew's responsiblity concerning both the Torah and the gentile?

More questions to get things going...

Shalom,
Yafet.

I believe that those who understand that the dividing wall was broken down by Messiah AND have the full understanding of Acts 15 will know that Torah should be followed, elsewise Messiah ( or his followers ) started another religion, and I dont' beleive that to be so. A quick look at this shows just WHO started another religion.

A Profession Of Faith From The Church Of Constantinople in the year 325 C.E. Under The Emperor Constantine I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms. unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews,and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and Synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with The Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condeming the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith. For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity. -Ignatius Bishop of Antioch :sick:

Check out this thread too, http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=837118 going on right now, anti-Semitism abounds and by those that say they worship the Jewish Messiah, strange......:(

Also Roman Catholic violations of the Eternal Torah (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=836358#post836358) http://www.christianforums.com/images/posticon.gif Yesterday, 09:55 PM

Domi_Adsum_05

9th July 2003, 04:54 PM

Alright I guess I have to remind those that Are not Messianic that this forum is not for debating, if you wish to debate our beliefs you must take them to IDD. This is my only "unofficial warning".

My error, and for which I apologize.
I am used to "poking my head in" the different forums to see what's going on, and I shouldn't have begun a debate here.

b'Shalom.

Pray4Isrel

9th July 2003, 11:21 PM

Wow, I can't keep up with you all here!
I go away for a few hours and look what I miss! :)

Just a reminder, as SonWorshipper mentioned: let's keep it civil here.
Not everyone will agree with everything, but we can have a good deep discussion and keep it from getting personal.

Shamash Of Yeshua

10th July 2003, 01:52 AM

Here is a very interesting article I found on DRS(Dead Removal Service) !:eek:
http://www.yaih.com/DRS.htm

The DRS
Warning: The following is not for the weak.....

Rom 14:1-4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for Elohim has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Elohim is able to make him stand.

But it is for the strong and established in Yahshuah!
-----
Why do Christian leaders think the "Dead Removal Service" is for the Living?Many established Christians are taught by Christian leaders to use Peter's vision to justify eating anything, even the "DRS". So I must ask, "Why do established Christian's and their leaders eat the DRS"?
When a man or creature dies they have a visit by the DRS.

When any creature dies on earth, it is consumed by maggots and worms for the dead.

When a man dies at sea, he is consumed by shrimp and other consumers of rotting flesh eaters for the dead.

When a creature dies at sea, it is consumed by shrimp and other consumers of rotting flesh eaters for the dead.

What do you think removed the carcasses of mankind from the world during the second flood?

Would YAH want you to eat the worms and maggots from a dead man?

Would YAH want you to eat the shrimp and other rotten flesh eaters from a dead man at sea?

Shrimp and other consumers of rotting flesh eaters are the worms and maggots for the dead of the sea.

Would you eat a creature that consumed a loved one?

Would you eat a creature that removes the dead from this world?
-----

Now you understand why some creatures are an abomination to His people, but not to those who are not His people!

I cannot believe that Christian leaders think it is perfectly fine to eat what removes the dead from this earth and teach men so!.

This my friend is another abomination!

Do you really think the "Dead Removal Service" is for the living? If you do, please save enough for the dead!
-----

Many established Christians are taught by Christian leaders to use Peter's vision to justify eating anything, even "Monkey". So I must ask.....
Any strong and established reading this eat monkey, shell fish, and the abominations?

Acts 10:11-13 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."

First thing is "wild beasts" was added to the scripture, so this leaves "four-footed animals of the earth." A monkey is two footed, and sea creatures are not included with Peters vision.

So you christian leaders please do not use "Peter's Vision" anymore to justify eating monkey, shell fish and the abomination!

Then you must consider, why would Yahuah want Christian leaders to teach His people to eat what is unclean and abomination to His own people? Where is the scriptures that teach abominations are now clean abominations?

Lev 11:10-23 But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you. They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination. Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales--that shall be an abomination to you.

And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination : the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 14 the kite, and the falcon after its kind; every raven after its kind, the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the seagull, and the hawk after its kind; the little owl, the fisher owl, and the screech owl; the white owl, the jackdaw, and the carrion vulture; the stork, the heron after its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

'All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you.

Try bringing a monkey dish to a church gathering and if they do not want to eat it, then quote them the same scriptures they quote you to justify eating shrimp and pork, for you do not want them to break a New Testament Commandment, right?.

Luke 10:7-8 Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.

1 Tim 4:4-5 For every creature of Elohim is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of Elohim and prayer.

Do you Christian leaders still think that there is no unclean creatures in the New Testament times?

Rev 18:1-2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

So you see by the NJKV or any version, John mentioned a unclean bird. But the interesting thing is, there is more to that scripture that what translaters translated. So is should read as follows....

Rev 18:1-2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird and a cage for every unclean and hated beast.

The last part of Rev 18-2 can be found from the Interlinear Bible .

NT:2342 Beast therion (thay-ree'-on); diminutive from the same as NT:2339; a dangerous animal: KJV - (venomous, wild) beast.

NT:169 Unclean akathartos (ak-ath'-ar-tos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of NT:2508 (meaning cleansed); impure (ceremonially, morally [lewd] or specially, [demonic]): KJV - foul, unclean.

So we have an unclean bird which was translated without the unclean beast, so this alone (bird) proves that all creatures are not clean in New Testament times as commonly taught, otherwise John would not have used the word "unclean" with the word bird nor with the word beast!

But why did they leave out "unclean beasts" in the translations? For it is found in the text. Interesting to say the least!
-----

The DRS, abominal and unclean creatures are not good, nor is it "OF" Yahuah for food , so make sure you do not do what is describedin the following scripture, which pertains to the Day of Yahuah's judgment!
Isa 66:16-17 For by fire and by His sword Yahuah will judge all flesh; and the slain of Yahuah shall be many. "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahuah.

Yahuah's Assembly In Haderek

Really makes you look at unclean in a way I haven't seen others show it.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

SonWorshipper

11th July 2003, 01:29 AM

I see nothing wrong with Gentiles not obeying dietary laws. They only have an obligation, in my opinion, to observe Shabbat and whatnot. That is quite clear to me.

Do I eat kosher? Most of the time I suppose I do actually :) I am not a big fan of smoked meat and pork in general. Pepperoni is the only unclean food I can tolerate :)
Strange I over looked that before, Rob how do you see it OK for Gentiles to disobey the Kosher laws? Are you Messianic? Are you in a congregation? Just wondering if you are what are your Oneg rules?

simchat_torah

11th July 2003, 03:56 AM

Sonworshipper,

It is actually fairly common among both messianics and jews to not hold gentiles to the standards of Kashrut. He's not out in left field in that regard.

-Yafet.

sojeru

11th July 2003, 10:06 AM

I would not hold gentiles to it as I don't believe that was given to them.
indeed they must be held to it to sit at the table of meeting.
for these are mtzvot noach not moshe- the mitzvot noach was supposed to be for all humans born from him and his children.
so kashrut does apply to them as implied by Ya'akov- NOTICE again, these are not the mtvot moshe.

Do we mean Torah Kosher or Talmud Kosher??
hi tribe. i do have my fights with rabbinical laws of kashrut- however, i learned that i have to obey them until the believers are ONE in a house of judgement.
Until we have our OWN beit din as a BODY of beleivers (not as a body with one human leader*)
we cannot part from the current pharisaic movement. so until we make our own talmud is torah. And since i know that not many will understand this people will indeed take an offence.

and do we chose to follow the talmudic way?
no not really- we do it because we were told to do it- and until we have our own beit din we are to obey them.
later on we can make our own judgements, but they would indeed have to BEAT the current judaic system which is the strongest of them all - THE ORTHODOX.
and i know Messiah is preparing for that.

RobSav

11th July 2003, 10:14 AM

Most of the time I eat kosher. Not that it makes a difference of course :) But I only enjoy Pepperoni, which doesn't have to be made from Pork. I detest ham (even when I was protestant) in any sliced or cooked form outside of pepperoni.

simchat_torah

11th July 2003, 01:40 PM

It's funny to me how many messianics are anti-Talmud and yet they wear a Tallit, Tzitzit, and a kippah.

SonWorshipper

11th July 2003, 03:11 PM

It's funny to me how many messianics are anti-Talmud and yet they wear a Tallit, Tzitzit, and a kippah.

ST, did you mean Torah?, because unless I missed it we were talking Kosher ( Torah) so I don't see how Talmud got brought into this nor Talliot , hense wearing Tzitzit or kippot?

From my understanding and lengthy research Tzitzit is Torah, the tallit was "created" in order to observe this mitzvah as the style of clothing has changed a lot since the commandment was given.

But lets get back to eating Kosher! :yum:

simchat_torah

11th July 2003, 05:54 PM

Well, you see Sonworshipper, the statement was made, "Torah Kosher or Talmud Kosher." Many were arguing against the Talmudic interpreation of Kashrut.

I was merely pointing out that it's interesting that Messianics will cling to certain Talmudic observances, yet toss the whole of it aside as bunk.

As far as tzitzit are concerned:
Does the Torah tell you how to tie them? Does it say to use white string? Does it say how long they are to be? Does it state how many strings are to be used?
The answer to all those questions is no.

Does the Torah mention a tallit? Does it say how many tzitzit are to go on a tallit? 2? 4?
No, the Torah never even mentions a tallit.

How about a Kippah?
Again, the Torah makes no mention of a Kippah.

All of these are clearly defined in Talmudic, Rabbinical, and Halachic passages.

Yet, Messianics will adhere to these standards.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Pray4Isrel

11th July 2003, 10:04 PM

So let me ask here... are we saying that both Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles should abide by Kosher diets?
And should non-Messianic Gentiles also eat kosher (meaning Gentile church-goers that do not attend Messianic Services etc)? I don't know how one would convince them of this but that's another topic.
Where is the line drawn?

Shamash Of Yeshua

11th July 2003, 10:55 PM

I quoted an article someone else wrote that I found very eye opening :eek: which talks about YHWH's DRS :) Dead Removal Service. I only put the link in my post above at first but then later after finding out I could quote the whole article I edited my post:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=838354&postcount=54

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

sojeru

12th July 2003, 10:53 AM

HI P4I
So let me ask here... are we saying that both Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles should abide by Kosher diets?
And should non-Messianic Gentiles also eat kosher (meaning Gentile church-goers that do not attend Messianic Services etc)? I don't know how one would convince them of this but that's another topic.
Where is the line drawn?

A GNTILE NEED NOT BE CIRCUMCISED LIKE NOAH WAS NOT CIRCUMCISED.
BUT A GENTILE MUST NOT EAT UNCLEAN FOODS LIKE THEIR FATHER NOAH DID NOT EAT UNCLEAN FOODS, NOR CONSUME BLOOD AND ETC.
HOW DO WE KNOW THIS, READ GENESIS AND YOU WILL SEE 7 PAIRS OF CLEAN ANIMALS WERE TO ENTER THE ARK, WHILE ONLY 2 PAIRS OF UNCLEAN ANIMALS WERE ALLOWED IN.

NOW, AS TO CONVINCE THEM?
I'LL PUT IT SIMPLE (even though they SAY that they believe) IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, HOW WILL THEY BELIEF IN ONE WHO IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD?

WHERE IS THE LINE DRAWN?
WELL MESSIAH GAVE THE BORDERS.
MESSIAH SAID IN MAT 23 TO OBEY WHATTHE PHARISEES COMMAND OF US. SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE OUR OWN BEIT DIN TODAY- THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IS TO- POINT-BLANK OBEY THEM- AND WHO ARE THEIR DECSENDANTS?
THE ORTHODOX AND ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEWISH MOVEMENTS.
SO I SAY, BE FRUM!
MESSIAH COMMANDED IT!
UNTIL WE HAVE OUR OWN COUNCIL- NOT LIKE THE VATICAN WHERE WE WOULD HAVE TO ADHERE TO ONE MAN- BUT WE ADHERE TO THE VOICE OF THE WHOLE ENTIRE BODY.
UNTIL THIS HAPPENS WE HAVE NO JURISDICTION IN MAKING ANY TORAH DECISIONS- ONLY TO OBEY

UNTIL THE SECOND WITNESS ARRIVES WHICH IS THE SECOND HOUSE (YISRAEL) WE ARE SUBMITTERS. AND THOSE WHO ARE SERVANTS WILL BE THE GREATEST

repentandbelieve

12th July 2003, 11:27 AM

So, here is the infamous "Eating Kosher Thread" - revived!

Should Jews abide by the dietary laws by eating kosher?
Should Gentiles?
or
Should Jews now be free from the dietary laws and not have to eat kosher?
Should Gentiles?

Let the games begin.
I believe that everyone should do what they believe God is commanding them to do. Remember that each of us are held individually accountable for the way we live.
We should not make articles of diet a test question, lest we turn away those who are coming to hear the Word. Let no one place stumbling blocks in front of those who are ignorantly walking in the dark paths. Preach the Word as it is in Christ Jesus.

Rafael

13th July 2003, 04:26 AM

1 Tim. 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

SonWorshipper

13th July 2003, 11:43 AM

That is not what those verses means. If it does then you are accusing all Torah abiding Jews of performing the Doctrine of Devils, G-d's law of Kashrut is NOT a doctrine of devils.

It's funny how ppl scream about mis-interpretation, and this is a classic example. Those verses are referring to vegtarianism, not eating Kosher, but when they have been "interpreted" by a Anti-Semetic church and passed down for centuries, some don't even question it.

It's just as bad as the lie calling the L-rd's Torah a yoke, when it is not His Word that is burdensome but the add ons of the Rabbis that BECAME a yoke.( Plenty on this by Yeshua himself in many dealings with the Pharasitic scribes). But when you want to view this from the churchs veiwpoint, it is seen as "Jewish" and not G-dly and that should be avoided at all costs.:(

G-d law is a delight, just consult King David, it is not a burden to those who love him.

SonWorshipper

13th July 2003, 01:23 PM

Just look at why the L-rd gave the rules of Kashrut in the first place, to be Holy unto him. Are not believers in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be Holy unto him?
Consider the Scripture below from Isaiah 66....A prophecy STILL not fulfilled.
Isa 66:15 For, behold, the L-RD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the L-RD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the L-RD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the L-RD.
Isa 66:18 For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, L-rd; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
One must wonder why Peter was so disobedient?? Here we have G-d saying apparently that Peter is now free to eat unclean meats, not only that but G-d COMMANDED Peter to eat the unclean animals, yet Peter flatly refused to do so!!! Why would Peter do that?? Especially if the kosher laws were "nailed to the cross"?? Some believe this to have taken place almost a dozen years after the crucifixion and resurrection, and if so Peter was not being obedient if this is truly what the L-rd preached.

Peter argued because this was not a teaching of Yeshua, so he is rightfully confused. Later on in this passage we see that the L-rd explains to him that it is not concerning food, but men, Gentile men. Then in Acts 10:17 the three men arrive and he goes with them to the house of a Gentile.

It was Gentiles that were previously "unclean and common". This was the mystery that Paul spoke of, that those afar off could now come close because of what Yeshua did on the stake for all mankind.

The L-rd was teaching that Yeshua had broken down that wall of partition and all that accept his atonement are washed clean in his blood.

This vision was revealed to Peter, and Peter was the one that the L-rd said he would build his church upon, and was called the "Chief apostle".

Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Act 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
Notice how the problem is about eating with them? Why couldn't he eat with them? Because they were considered unclean, because of their dietary habits, and were considered common man, and not G-dly , being uncircumcised. Now they are not required to be circumcised for this is an Abrahamic covenant, and not needed to believe in the Holy one of Israel. That is the only difference though.

Peter continues on to explain his vision and therefore authority from the L-rd to do what he did ( eat with Gentiles, not eat un-kosher) and concludes with this:

Act 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What G-d hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. What had G-d cleansed? The Gentile perception of this is the food, but it is not so, for it was the Gentile himself that was cleansed, made clean and acceptable to the L-rd through Yeshua's blood.

Also, In my opinion, the L-rd very easily could have shown that there were no longer rules of Kashrut when he ate with the disciples in Luke 24:41-43, he asked them for something to eat, and they gave him broiled fish. I don't believe it was a shrimp.

Could it have been what is commonly referred to today, even in Israel as "St. Peter's Fish." – the Tilapia?

SonWorshipper

13th July 2003, 01:26 PM

SonWorshipper

13th July 2003, 02:38 PM

1 Tim. 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Tim 4: 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

In order for this to hold water you have left out the very next verse:

Notice there is a colon? there is a continuation here which you left out, it should read: 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now we ( as good bereans that search the scriptures - Tenach) should ask ourselves, what has the L-rd sanctified as food for us?

SonWorshipper

13th July 2003, 02:52 PM

One other thing might be asked:

Who are these people?

Revelation12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of G-d, and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Shamash Of Yeshua

13th July 2003, 04:01 PM

Also what are we to make of this then from Yeshua:

"The kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away." (Matthew 13:47-48)

The lake here being Galilee of course, and what are the "BAD" fish? Wouldn't these fishermen understand that the bad fish would be the unkosher ones?
Can't forget these as well SonWorshipper :)

Quote:
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(I didn't see the post you made just before this one :)
Quote:
The Good News According to Matthew
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
...
7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
...
16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.

...
23:1 Then Yeshua spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat. 3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don't do their works; for they say, and don't do.

Quote:
The Good News According to Luke
16:16 The Torah and the Prophets were until Yochanan. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Torah to become void.
...
23:50 Behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the council, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), from Arimathaea, a city of the Judeans, who was also waiting for the Kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was cut in stone, where no one had ever been laid. 54 It was the day of the Preparation, and the Sabbath was drawing near. 55 The women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 They returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
If these people who are Jews followed and Believed what Yeshua taught then why are they Obeying the Commandments of Torah? I can't remember, yet isn't the preparation of spices and ointments also taught in the Torah?

Quote:
Yochanan's First Letter 5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

sojeru

13th July 2003, 04:23 PM

hi sonworshipper,

That is not what those verses means. If it does then you are accusing all Torah abiding Jews of performing the Doctrine of Devils, G-d's law of Kashrut is NOT a doctrine of devils.

ummm, i see how perfectly both of those portions of scripture correlate- however,
you hadnt heard what his interpretation was.

the only thing he posted up was scripture- no meanings of his own in the verses.
and those verses do not apeak anything against kashrut.
like in romans 14 clearly and only speaks of those that are vegetarians against those that eat meat (omnivores).
in thessalonians the doctrines of devils would be those that only eat fruits and vegetables preaching a doctrine of NEEDING to abstain from meat to walk in full truth and be approved by HaShem.
thats the point, clear as day.
No twisting of scripture at all, just what it has given.
Now is this raphes view?
i dont know- and neither do you- for he gave none of his own meaning.

have a good day

SonWorshipper

13th July 2003, 04:58 PM

Sojeru said: ummm, i see how perfectly both of those portions of scripture correlate- however, you hadnt heard what his interpretation was. No, that is true but when someone posts this scripture in a thread about eating Kosher with nothing else I have learned in the past that they are believing a mis-interpretation of it.Sojeru said: and those verses do not apeak anything against kashrut. Exactly but by posting them only shows this person feels that they do. Sojeru said:like in romans 14 clearly and only speaks of those that are vegetarians against those that eat meat (omnivores). Yes, that is what I said, did you miss it? SonWorshipper said: It's funny how ppl scream about mis-interpretation, and this is a classic example. Those verses are referring to vegtarianism, not eating Kosher, but when they have been "interpreted" by a Anti-Semetic church and passed down for centuries, some don't even question it. POST 67I am not sure why you are challenging my posts Sojeru:scratch:

Pray4Isrel

15th July 2003, 11:10 AM

So how do you all tie in Romans chapter 14 with this?
I think this chapter references the constant battle between those who eat Kosher and those that don't... not allowing the way you eat (or do anything else) to be a stumbling block to one another. Reading this, I assume that the Gentiles were not eating Kosher yet they were not being reprimanded for it.
Thoughts?

sojeru

16th July 2003, 12:19 PM

hi son worshiper,
no doubt you have the spirit of a man!
intresting
and i mean not just human i man gender.
very intresting.

this is not meant to be an insult*

i wasnt challenging your post to its meaning for i know you stand on kashrus
however, i did want to convey the meaning in its full regarding both passages. I wasnt sure if you saw how they correlate and i wanted raphe to see its true interpretation. I was killing to birds with one stone and i think i did fairly well.
because i made sure to see what was your stance and i made sure to let raphe and even more people that come across this topic that thinks kashrus is not THE WAY=(messiah) then more seed was spread.

thanks
shalom u'bracha

SonWorshipper

16th July 2003, 12:45 PM

hi son worshiper,
no doubt you have the spirit of a man!
intresting
and i mean not just human i man gender.
very intresting.

this is not meant to be an insult*

thanks
shalom u'bracha

Hi Sojeru,

would you mind explaining a little more indepth the part I left in the quote above, I understood the rest , but not this.

Thks:)

Rafael

17th July 2003, 04:00 AM

Thanks for the explaination. Doing things to please God because we love Him is good, but I wonder why the apostle fought with the Judaizers about food, circumcision, and sabbath so much, and I had to ask.
No offense was meant, and that's why I just left it as scripture. Maybe that was a mistake, if your angry, as that wasn't my intent.
Your last question - I would say the bread of life is Jesus, and sanctification is by His blood.

John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jesus was always pursued by the Pharissees and accused of breaking the law. He spoke of work on sabbath of pulling an animal out of a ditch or healing, and was charged. He seemed to break the law a lot, but accused them of straining knats and swallowing camels when it came to law. I think He tried to show them and us that the Spirit of the Torah is love, and love has precedence over all things - as God is love.

I think a person has to choose for themselves what really pleases God the most. I would never condemn another man for their food and drink, but I have been. Paul had to deal with the issue.

Paul in Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Paul in Colossians 2:16: So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself. 18 Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on self-denial. And don't let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud.
19 But they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For we are joined together in his body by his strong sinews, and we grow only as we get our nourishment and strength from God.
20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as, 21 "Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch."
22 Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them.
23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person's evil thoughts and desires.

I think, also that it would only be natural for a person to treasure the traditions they were raised with, especially when they were truths about the promise given from the only true God. I too, think often of the feasts and the sabbath and want to honor God, but don't want to complicate that which He has made better.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 11:24 AM

Thanks for the explaination. Doing things to please God because we love Him is good, but I wonder why the apostle fought with the Judaizers about food, circumcision, and sabbath so much, and I had to ask.
No offense was meant, and that's why I just left it as scripture. Maybe that was a mistake, if your angry, as that wasn't my intent.
Your last question - I would say the bread of life is Jesus, and sanctification is by His blood.

John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jesus was always pursued by the Pharissees and accused of breaking the law. He spoke of work on sabbath of pulling an animal out of a ditch or healing, and was charged. He seemed to break the law a lot, but accused them of straining knats and swallowing camels when it came to law. I think He tried to show them and us that the Spirit of the Torah is love, and love has precedence over all things - as God is love.

I think a person has to choose for themselves what really pleases God the most. I would never condemn another man for their food and drink, but I have been. Paul had to deal with the issue.

Paul in Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Kinda confused by your response Raphe, if you were addressing me, my last question was:
One other thing might be asked: Who are these people? Revelation12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of G-d, and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMoshiach. So my guess is you weren't' addressing any of my posts, however I will address yours.Starting with this part.

Romans 14 ( I really have to start a post on this, this is such a pat response to eating Kosher and following G-d's appointed times)

Anyway you sited Romans 14:6-10,and in doing so may I rightfully assume that you think this means that one does or doesn't have to eat by G-ds laws? Most have been taught that so that is the premise I will post on.

These verses do not have to do with that, but are speaking of FASTING. Regarding the day and eating unto the L-rd clearly have to do with fasting. Some thought it best to fast on a certain day, others, any day would do. This is what Rabbi Sha'ul was teaching about.

Why do we fast?

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Are we fasting as above? No, But .............

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 11:57 AM

RAPHE:

Paul in Colossians 2:16: So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself. 18 Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on self-denial. And don't let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud. 19 But they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For we are joined together in his body by his strong sinews, and we grow only as we get our nourishment and strength from God. 20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as, 21 "Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch." 22 Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person's evil thoughts and desires.

I think, also that it would only be natural for a person to treasure the traditions they were raised with, especially when they were truths about the promise given from the only true God. I too, think often of the feasts and the sabbath and want to honor God, but don't want to complicate that which He has made better.

Firstly I will direct my answer to this statement you made after the verses.

"I think, also that it would only be natural for a person to treasure the traditions they were raised with, especially when they were truths about the promise given from the only true God."

Following G-ds laws regarding HIS HOLYDAYS and Instructions on what is to be considered food and what is not are not "Treasured traditions", they are His laws, pure and simple. They pointed to a promise, yes, but now are celebrated by the believer in their fulfillment, and the L-rd is honored in that.

I too, think often of the feasts and the Sabbath and want to honor God, but don't want to complicate that which He has made better.
This is a loaded statement so I will take it one section at a time, and try to be gentle.:)

You say you "think often of the feasts and the Sabbath ", well, that is nice, but that was not part of the commandment, to "think" about what He said to do regarding His Holy Days.

Regarding the Sabbath, the commandment for that day alone, the FIRST of His Holy Days, he tells us to keep it Holy. I don't read anywhere that he said to think about it.

, but don't want to complicate that which He has made better.

Now to the end of your statement. Let me ask you what you mean by "made better"?

How did He make it better? I don't understand that, G-d is perfect in all His ways. How do I know this? He told me in His word.

Read Genesis 1, each day of creation, He ends with: "And G-d saw that it was GOOD." ( And I think He is the best one to judge here , don't you?) Now do you believe that when G-d created everything He created, that it was perfect the first time or that He has to "improve" on what He has done? I think that you are associating a plan that He had from the "foundation of the earth"; His plan of salvation come to fulfillment as "Making better" something that wasn't right in the first place?

Do you see how that belittles the Almighty G-d? He made nothing "better" everything He does is perfect from the start and in His perfect timing. He doesn't have to improve on anything. If He did then He would not be G-d would He?

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 01:19 PM

Ok, now let's address Colossians chapter 2

This is your version of this scripture.

2:16: So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.

This is the KJV of the same scripture:

Colossians 2 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Now do you see the difference here? Yours is in the past tense, like it is already come and gone. But looking at the KJV and CJB you can see that they have not come to fulfillment yet.

This is the CJB version:

Colossians 2:16 So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh, or Shabbat. 17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.

Do you see the slight change there? I don't know what version you have but I will tell you the interpretation sounds something like "Ye shall not surely die". !:eek:

Having respect for G-ds holy days and not celebrating are way two different things.

Also did you notice the subtile addition of the word "rules"? In verse 16?

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 01:41 PM

So since we can see that the version you are reading has some serious flaws and you base your understanding of these scriptures on that, I can see the difficulty you are having, by your statement following these verses on "shadows of things to come" because you think that they have been fulfilled and nullified and done away with.

So let's look at what I highlighted ( in your version) in the rest of that Chapter. If you see where I highlighted in those verses and read carefully those words, it then becomes clear that Sha'ul can't possibly be talking about something that the L-rd made holy using such words as these? Can he?

19 But they are not connected to Christ,

evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world,

22 Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them.

Severe bodily discipline

Now can you see how this can't possibly be talking of the L-rd G-d Almighty?

"Evil powers of this world" – Is G-d evil? Are His powers evil?
"Rules of this world" – Are God's rules "of this world?"
"Mere Human teaching" – Is G-d a "Mere Human?
Severe bodily discipline- where in the Tenach does G-d teach this? (Sounds like some churches doctrines to me that are still "in this world" today.)

I do hope now that you can clearly see that G-ds laws are NOT what Sha'ul is describing here, G-d FORBID!

As you can see there was other heresies being taught.

This verse:
2:16: So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
In the Christian world is taken to mean that they were being "Judaized" :( . However the Colossians were being attacked for their faith in Messiah by unbelievers, those living around them , worldly influences.

If we take a quick look up at verse 4 of this same chapter we gain this understanding.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Messiah.

Now how can these things, philosophy, vain deceit, tradition of men, rudiments of the world, POSIBBLY be confused as talking about the Commandments of the L-rd?

So the Colossians are to let no man judge them for their faithfulness towards G-d's commands and Holy Days. Sha'ul wisely points out that these convocations were a "shadow" of things to come --- the Hebrew word mikraw means rehearsal! In other words, each Colossian observance is actually pointing to Yeshua Himself -- the one who triumphed on their behalf. So the Colossians aren't to let these false ones judge them (or worse, to persuade them to stop observing the things Epaphras has taught them). They are to stand firm and continue the observance! Like Sha'ul told the Corinthians:

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:7,8

Yes! Here he tells them to "KEEP THE FEAST" and what was that feast? Pesache – Passover!

We are to *keep* the feast! The Holy Days were *always* rehearsals -- they always pointed to Yeshua. And now Yeshua has come, we *continue* to keep G-d's appointed times, but now with greater understanding of Yeshua to whom they pointed!

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 01:53 PM

So I hope I have made it clear for all to see that these verses in Colossians are not upholding the "doing away" With the laws G-d made regarding eating Kashrut.:)These verses too are mis-taught and therefore mis-understood:"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him `unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him `unclean.'" Matthew 15:11 This had to do with hand-washing, a pharisaical ordinance, not that everything was good for food. If this is believed then one must also believe that Yeshua here was saying that He allowed the eating of everything, and therefore at that point would make him a sinner, for breaking G-ds law of Kashrut.:(

And this one too: Mark 7:19 "Because it goes not into the heart but into the stomach, and goes out with the waste? (He said this, making all food clean)."

Same story as in Matthew above, but with gospel author's footnote: "(He said this, making all food clean)." What is food to Jewish people? G-d only sanctioned *clean meats* as food for man. Do you really think pork is considered a food in a debate among observant Jews? NO! Unclean meats aren't even up for debate here since unclean meats aren't even considered *food* by the observant Jews in this discussion! The issue again in this passage is eating with unclean hands! Can unclean hands change a clean food into a unclean food? Yeshua's answer is clear --- NO! What makes a food ritually clean is G-d's sanctioning -- not washing your hands! Believer you me, if Yeshua were to have been claiming that anything was now food, including swine, there would have been a HUGE uproar from those Pharesees! !!:eek:

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 04:25 PM

Now I believe that someone also brought up Romans 14?
Let's start with verse 20 first.

"All food is clean," Romans 14:20

Firstly we have to realize what exactly is food? Only those things, sanctified by the L-rd G-d himself, (See Leviticus for a listing if you are not familiar with this.) What G-d calls clean for food and what the world proclaims are two totally differnt things. There are some that use dogs for food, yes, they eat them, now to you that might be awful, but to those that eat them it is not, But in G-ds eyes it is, so then you would be in agreement. But now lets talk pig, you say, Yes, yummy! , but does this agree with what the L-rd says? In a word....No.

So this chapter in Romans begins with :

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

(All things, does not mean ALL things, else we would ALL be dead!)

This has to do with vegetarianism, which is what "the Weak brother" is referring to here, and why is that? Well from my own experience I would like to offer my humble opinion. Those that had now been told of the Kashrut laws, were confused, and new at it, therefore decided to be vegans.

Now I know that myself when all this was new to me, I too became frustrated and claimed it too hard and I myself though about doing the same thing, turning only to vegetables and other parve things. BUT , I think that is what the enemy wants us to think because if we don't try and we turn towards vegetarianism we are not separate from the world, set apart, for this is the wave of the New-Agers, those like the PETA organization which is FAR from G-dly, and other "Save the earth, animals, whatever" groups, save the animals and eat veggies. Where is the difference?

By eating what the L-rd said to eat, the things that He declared were to be FOOD for us, we become unlike the world, we become recognized as His, set apart, and Holy unto Him.

Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

These verses say a lot about how we are to treat the temple of the Ruach HaKodesh.

I'll tell you a quick story. My husband leaves for work very early and the only stores open at that time of the morning are gas station stores, so he stops to get coffee, gas, and something to eat. Now this place makes breakfast sandwiches, eggs with sausage, eggs with ham, eggs with bacon, get my drift? So my husband asked the guy working there one day if he could make him one without any pig, and he did. But , he asked him why?

My husband replied, I can't eat it , because my Father tells me not to."

" Oh, so you're Jewish" He asks

"No, Messianic" my husband replied and was given the opportunity to share what that is, the guy was quite interested.

But the point is, that most people recognize G-ds ways, through G-ds people. Now aren't believers in the L-rd and Yeshua, G-d's people? Many claim to be but are they recognized as such?

SonWorshipper

17th July 2003, 04:33 PM

Most Bible scholars will agree that The Revelation of Yeshua to Yochanan was given at least 30 years after Yeshua's resurrection, which would be after many of Sha'ul's teachings also. Now also most Bible Scholars agree that Yeshua is the one showing HIS revelation to John and therefore we should take this as coming straight from the mouth of G-d.

Now with that in mind, I would like for you to read the following:

Revelation 18:1-2
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hated bird.

Now if we are in agreement that this hasn't taken place yet, then why are there still at this time in the future, still in existence unclean birds?

Rafael

17th July 2003, 11:37 PM

Thanks, Son worshipper, for the many words on interpretation, and I'll have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Col.2:16, which makes it a prophetic verse instead of a verse about something already accomplished at the cross and finished by the perfect sacrifice. I have never heard the verse interpreted that way before seeing it at your hand.

Col. 2: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The word σκια, shadow, is often used to express any thing imperfect or unsubstantial; while the term σωμα, body, was used in the opposite sense, and expressed any thing substantial, solid, and firm. The law was but the shadow or representation of good things to come; none should rest in it; all that it pointed out is to be sought and obtained in Christ.

Your agrument over the word "better covenant" would not be with me, but again in the translation of the KJV of Heb. 8:6-8.

I'm interested in what the CBJ version says Hebrews 8:6 through 8? What does CBJ stand for?

Here, again is the KJV. of it:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Thank you.

Shamash Of Yeshua

18th July 2003, 12:49 AM

Here, again is the KJV. of it:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Thank you.
That looks future to me.

Tag

SonWorshipper

18th July 2003, 01:03 AM

Raphe I was commenting on Your use of the word Better, not the scripture in Hebrews. I clearly quoted what you said. Which was this:

I think, also that it would only be natural for a person to treasure the traditions they were raised with, especially when they were truths about the promise given from the only true God. I too, think often of the feasts and the sabbath and want to honor God, but don't want to complicate that which He has made better.

Now if you wish to include that ( Hebrews 8:6-8) as to what your response is then I would have to ask you if you believe the new covenant does away with the feasts ( that aren't complete yet) or the Shabbat, (which is everlasting, into the new kingdom even)?

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

As you can see in verse 8 the fault was not found with the one who made the covenant else that would mean that G-d is not omnipotent, but it says that the fault was found in "THEM". The one the covenant was made with.

This "better covenant" has a lot to do with the Temple on earth and the Temple in heaven, the High Priest on earth and Yeshua as our High Priest in heaven. What is done on earth is a copy or shadow of what is done in Heaven.

But what I will say is that this still hasn't happened in full , so again this is the future, just like the Colossians scripture.

I will need more time to fully expound upon this, and I will try to tomorrow.

However I am interested in your comment about Colossians

Thanks, Son worshipper, for the many words on interpretation, and I'll have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Col.2:16, which makes it a prophetic verse instead of a verse about something already accomplished at the cross and finished by the perfect sacrifice. I have never heard the verse interpreted that way before seeing it at your hand.

My interpretation? That is odd since I posted the KJV of that verse, and I still don't read where yours comes from. Nevermind, I found it, the New Living Translation, under the heading of

" Freedom from Rules and New Life in Christ" http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=NLT&passage=col+2

That's "New Living" alright! Now is that how you see that scripture? Are we free from rules?

And like I said, that is not my translation but the AKJV. The CJB is the Complete Jewish Bible, this is a translation used by Messianic Jews, Translation by David Stern. As you can see the CJB and the AKJV agree but your version seems to say the complete opposite. That should be a red light to anyone.

We keep the feasts and celebrate the Sabbaths in regards to what is STILL to come.

The final one, Sukkot, I can't wait for!!!!!:clap:

Rafael

18th July 2003, 05:10 AM

So since we can see that the version you are reading has some serious flaws and you base your understanding of these scriptures on that, I can see the difficulty you are having, by your statement following these verses on "shadows of things to come" because you think that they have been fulfilled and nullified and done away with.

Fulfilled does not mean done away with. A work fulfilled is one accomplished and made complete. The law is not done away with nor do I believe that - nor did I say that. KJV is my favorite, and it's obvious what you think of the NLB. I still don't know what tha CJB is.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Lu 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Mt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rafael

18th July 2003, 05:49 AM

Perhaps the amplified version:

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.

The shadow was then, before the cross, and the substance and reality is now - not future.

Verse 16 would make no sense if was to read - "Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath, in the future - when He returns again."

Verse 16 and verse 17 are in context to each other, and the same time - now. I repeat the shadow was then, before the cross and what was accomplished there by the Lord's once and for all sacrifice for sin.

The verses together mean just what they say, and that you or I are not to be judged "in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath", and they are not future tense.

SonWorshipper

18th July 2003, 01:22 PM

So am I to take it that you are in agreement that we are to still eat what the L-rd sanctified and declared food?

Fulfilled does not mean done away with. A work fulfilled is one accomplished and made complete. The law is not done away with nor do I believe that - nor did I say that.

Rafael

18th July 2003, 04:27 PM

I would not judge another man's faith by what he eats, and am told to not, several times, by the Word of God.

I am sanctified in Christ - by His work alone. My works are as filthy rags, in comparison.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Rpmans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

sojeru

18th July 2003, 07:30 PM

hi son worshiper
sorry i wasnt on lately

Hi Sojeru,

would you mind explaining a little more indepth the part I left in the quote above, I understood the rest , but not this.

everytime i read your posts i seriously forget that you are a woman- and everytime i think that no doubt i "treat" you differently and even would deal with reading your posts more harshly.

but this is a good thing.

hi raphe

but I wonder why the apostle fought with the Judaizers about food, circumcision, and sabbath so much, and I had to ask.

about food, it wasnt judaizers- judaizers were on the deal of circumcision.
and by what you write it shows that you cant tell the differences between all of the divisions rising up other than just "judaizers".
and no doubt, it was mostly jews that brought these problems , AT FIRST, but they werent considered judaizing.
circumcision was NEVER a requirement of TORAH for the gentile (even with out Messiah)
however shabbat was and still is for the gentile.
foods?
now if you read clearly through out the New Testament you will see that it clearly speaks against blood cuncumption, and food sacrificed to idols. now how about specific TYPES of foods?
the only ones spoken of is vegetables and meat.
what is meat?
meat is what is called food by HaShem in his Direction (torah)
there was a difference between the essenes that believed in Messiah and the rest of the jews and even gentiles.
(notice- this is jew against jew as far as eating EVEN)
some jews(essenes) said "only vegetables are to be eaten" and other jews like pharisaic one said " no we are allowed to eat meat- it is not against HaShem".

how do i know this if its not clearly in bible?
one thing, Learn HISstory:)
History itself, all of it- is Hashem
it shows us something specifically about his plans and himself, every bit of it.

and when was sabbath spoken against in scripture??

Jesus was always pursued by the Pharissees and accused of breaking the law. He spoke of work on sabbath of pulling an animal out of a ditch or healing, and was charged.

this kind of dealing with the sabbath was allowed.
this is even in Talmud that a person can heal and save lives during shabbos.
This here in itself shows that the pharisees RECIEVED Messiahs teaching- but not messiah himself. how?
well, we have evidence in bible (NT) that the pharisees said one thing about sabbat work. And Messiah said that you can heal and save lives on shabbat
now in Talmud, we witness that the Pharisees in dealing with shabbat say that you can heal and even save lives.
maimonides even deals with it in the same way.

you said

17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.
correct translation is:
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Colossians 2:17 a <3739> {WHICH} estin <2076> (5748) {ARE} skia <4639> {A SHADOW} twn <3588> {OF THINGS} mellontwn <3195> (5723) {TO COME;} to <3588> {BUT} de <1161> {THE} swma <4983> {BODY [IS]} tou <3588> cristou <5547> {CHRIST.}

this is saying that these shavdows are only shadows, but this shadow IS THE BODY OF MESSIAH.
so the shabbat and what we allow by BEIT DIN (house of Judgement) {of the }shluchim(apostles-emmisaries), is THE BELIEVERS.
so how would the people be shabbat if we do not do shabbat. how are the believers CLEAN if we eat what is NOT clean by Hashem spiritually and physically for they both go hand in hand.
"if you love me, obey my commandments" John 14
" man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of HaShem"

and Hashem is Messiah- from GEN-DEUT. to REV.
if you love him, obey him.
that simple
ECCLESIASTES (the conclusion)

you had also quoted

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
this is the pure undefiled understanding
the first covenant was by Hashem AND men.
now when men make a promise, they will fail and rebell,
however the new covenant via Jeremiah 31:31-34
is this ALONE
"I HaShem will make a new covenant..." does this involve the word of men? no- only hashems word- no word of men is involved in it- so now Hashem has actually "taken" free will out of the hands of men. HaShem has for himself reserved to shose whomever he wants as a a clay pot for trash or treasures {romans}
"I HaShem will nake the hearts of my people right..." (right=righteous=just=justice){in hebrew its the same word}
"I HaShem will do this by putting my TORAH into their hearts , both the good side of the heart and bad side- that way no evil inclination against what is called holy by my torah will prevail. this is my covenant."
now go back and read.

Do not take the word of any man!
not your pastor nor myself.
YOU READ!!!
until there is a beit Din, you cant listen to anybody to teach you unless you are all going for the same exact goal.
and the goal should be this
" WE NEED TO FIND TRUTH NO MATTER HOW HARSH OR UNTRADITIONAL IT MAY SEEM- SOLA SCRIPTURA- and then everything else"

shalom u'bracha