Why does it make me mad?

[superdave]

Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

[SpiritPsalmist]

It makes me a tad bit angry too Dave. One time someone called us a charasmatic mess. . .I thought I'm not a mess. . .I was a mess. . .but now I'm delivered. http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/jump31.gif

We just gotta keep on keepin' on. . .only the opinion of Jesus matters. :hug:

[9-iron]

Quaffer pretty much nailed it Dave. Because we have made it a charasmatic MESS. Problem is way too many people are abusing the gifts. We have become more concerned about the gifts and manifestations than living obediently in the Kingdom. Good example, how many services have you been to, or seen on t.v., or heard about where there were forced or courtesy falling outs. Ask your denominational friends how many times in the past year someone has abused the gift of tongues. How many worship services do you know ended in charasmatic choas...Well that is your answer.
Basically they are scared and I don't blame them. It is more our fault that they are apprehensive about moving in the gifts. How many men do you know that will pray away in tongues 'during the moment' but treats his wife like **** 7 days a week, gets involved in behavior he shouldn't doesn't make good descisions. Where is the appeal in that.
You know the routine. I am not saying all the responsibility falls on the charasmatics, but it sure doesn't help things the way we act sometimes...

[SUNSTONE]

I believe it is the devil getting into our thoughts with divide and conquer scheme.

I hear people all the time, attack all of the denominations. Including Catholics.

Now I don't agree with all the denominations, and I love a good bashing as much as the next guy. [:P]
But I feel we should keep a gaurd on what we say about others. How about instead of talking bad, how about spend that time saying a prayer?

[Andrew]

3 cheers for charismatics!
hip hip hip Hooooray!
hip hip hip Hoooooray!!
hip hip hip Hoooooray!!!

someone start dancin, someone start singing in tongues, someone start banging the drums! Someone prophesy!

[AlexSuttonUK]

hehe yeah i feel just the same guys, i used to go to a church which didnt accept the gifts at all and branded the charasmitic movement as wrong!, (which is wierd cause they are starting to come around now...but thats another story) byt yeah, it made me so mad cause i could see that the new places that i went to were bringing people to know jesus in the 100's! which was amazing to see, adn the people who were mocking it we not saving any one at all!.

Makes me mad but i know that we all love Jesus and that is the main thing.......i have to remind my self of that sometimes :)

[SpiritPsalmist]

3 cheers for charismatics!
hip hip hip Hooooray!
hip hip hip Hoooooray!!
hip hip hip Hoooooray!!!

someone start dancin, someone start singing in tongues, someone start banging the drums! Someone prophesy!


http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/yl2jump.gif http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/a_smil09.gif http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/icon_drummer.gif http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/whistle.gif http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/clap.gif

I agree. I don't think we're a mess at all. Sure we've made lot's of mistakes, but what church has'nt? That does not mean we give up and lay down defeated by the enemy.

I would much rather have a fire that has to be gotten under control than not have a fire at all. Unlike a fire in the natural. . . His fire does not distroy people, it distroys sin.

[imasharp]

My personal opinion is that a lot of people are afraid of it and rather than admit to it, they raise a fuss and have a problem with it. I have been guilty of doing the same with other issues. I have to watch what I say. I try to get the facts before forming an opinion. I do have to say, that is seems easier to just growl and make up stuff than to pray, search the Bible and talk to people that care.
Christy

[sparrow]

I don't like the way other denominations sometimes treat charismatics, but I also don't like the way some charismatics treat everyone else. Some non-charismatics frown upon charismatics because it seems so wild and spontaneous, which is understandable. I mean, each to their own. But I don't like the way that they think it is ridiculous to connect with God in this way. They should just respect charismatics and let them worship how they want to.
However, charismatics are guilty of this too. I find that some charismatics think they are "superior" to non-charismatics because they are receiving the holy spirit in more obvious ways.
Basically, I wish everyone would just let everyone else live and worship in peace, in whatever way they want to. Talk about an ideal world :rolleyes:.
:D

[EJO]

I feel the same way you do clairywairy. I do not go to a charismatic church per se- it is a contemporary church.
But at times with some of my charismatic friends, they treat me as if I fall short in 'really' experiencing God, and their church services would allow me to experience God in a more complete full way. It seams more of a sales pitch.

[imasharp]

I believe that people should be treated great no matter what. I am a charismatic christian, I guess. I don't think of it that way. I just think that I believe in the Bible. I do think that I believe right or I wouldn't be solid. I do however think that Ican talk to you or anyone and voice my opinions when asked. I don't have to be a jerk about it. I can be loving and kind like all christians are to be. As for some of the people putting you down. That is horrible. What I believe in is gifts from God. I believe that he will give to you as you ask and are ready for them. I by no means believe that anyone is in danger of hell, because of not having a gift of tongues. The Bible doesn't say that anywhere.
Christy

[SpiritPsalmist]

I feel the same way you do clairywairy. I do not go to a charismatic church per se- it is a contemporary church.
But at times with some of my charismatic friends, they treat me as if I fall short in 'really' experiencing God, and their church services would allow me to experience God in a more complete full way. It seams more of a sales pitch.

I could almost guarentee that your Charasmatic friends do not intend to come off this way. Could it possibly be though that you feel inferiour around them due to their "experience" of joy? I'm not saying that this is always the issue, however, I use to work with a non-charasmatic religious orginazation.

I had been a Christian for a long time but I got caught up in the renewal/revivel that hit the Penticostal church I was attending and there was a very dramatic change in the joy in my life. I never told anyone what was going on in my church. I never talked about tongues. And, in my knowledge I did not put anyone that I worked with down but there were times when I merely walked into the room and the aggitation in the others would be quite noticible.

I'm a fairly quiet person by just my being happy and joyful and trusting in Jesus was such an irritation that they made up stories about me and eventually got me fired. . .merely because my presense made them uncomfortable.

The reason I know this is that one person I've remained very good friends told me all the stuff everyone came and told her about me when they saw she was becoming friends with me. She says she's glad she did not listen to them because none of the stuff they told her was true and she considers me one of her best friends.

I know it's easy to feel like the odd-man out but it's not intended. Really.

[The Midge]

It does not matter whether or not Charismatics intend to be holier than thou or not they often do. There is a temptation to become experienced based and lose sight of the value of theology or the Word and tradition. When a church starts basing their assessment of godliness on how much manifestation is about they can be blind to other strengths and weaknesses.

Testing the spirits of prophets, discernment and orderly worship are ignored at our peril. If a Church is too busy swinging from the chandeliers or doing animal impersonation for a bit of spiritual and common sense they could be down the road to heresy before they realise it. In that case constructive critism from our feloow belivers is justified and necessary.

IMO the bible is clear about miracles and the Holy Spirit continually being active in the Church. It is funny how Bible literalists can come to another conclusion :confused: If the age of the Holy Spirit had come to an end why did Paul bother to write three chapters about their use to the Corinthians?

[SpiritPsalmist]

It does not matter whether or not Charismatics intend to be holier than thou or not they often do. There is a temptation to become experienced based and lose sight of the value of theology or the Word and tradition. When a church starts basing their assessment of godliness on how much manifestation is about they can be blind to other strengths and weaknesses.

Testing the spirits of prophets, discernment and orderly worship are ignored at our peril. If a Church is too busy swinging from the chandeliers or doing animal impersonation for a bit of spiritual and common sense they could be down the road to heresy before they realise it. In that case constructive critism from our feloow belivers is justified and necessary.

IMO the bible is clear about miracles and the Holy Spirit continually being active in the Church. It is funny how Bible literalists can come to another conclusion :confused: If the age of the Holy Spirit had come to an end why did Paul bother to write three chapters about their use to the Corinthians?


In my opinion it does matter.

No one can judge someone else's heart and mind except for God. I'd say the majority of the time, out of our own insecurities, we inappropriately judge others and accuse them of things that are untrue. And that, I believe is the problem of the accuser. . . not the accused.

I heard someone say once, "what you do with what you see shows whether you are following the accuser or the Redeemer."

If we are truly following our Redeemer, we would never accuse another brother and sister of making us feel less than what the Word says we are. . .because we would know that accusation for what it truly is. . . a lie. . .from the father of lies.

And regarding those who really are feeling superior. . .do you stop doing your laundry just because someone on TV insinuates that you can do it better if you use their product? Of course not. Then why would you think that it's OK to put God given gifts aside just because someone using them thinks they are better than you.

If you're following the Redeemer, and I believe you are, then your job is to pray for them that they mature in what God is leading them into. To judge them puts you on the same side as THE accuser and he does not need any help, thank you very much.

There is no way that any one of us humans can accurately measure which group does more good and which group does more harm. . .only God can accurately do that and He says He looks at the heart. So. . .even to Him the intent of the person does matter.

We're called to maturity, not to act as school children in a playground brawl but to walk as Christ did.

We can do all the right works but if our heart does not match it is worthless and will burn with the chaff when we stand before Him. On the other hand, one can also do everything wrong (according to man) but have a pure heart and God will view it as Gold and it will stand the test of the fire.

We need to be more concerned about how our own hearts are going to stand that test. All of us are going to take it ya know.

[superdave]

One thing that kind of makes me a little upset... is one person will just be like so blunt to you... it's not even funny. For example, I share my problems and one person who was a charismatic like I am said, "That's because there is something wrong with you... with your faith..."--- uh no... If I feel like junk one day- I want to talk to someone and I want them to hear me out. They can speak truth but they don't have to be so blunt sometimes. Maybe this is just what I have experienced. To me when somebody tells you why you are having a crappy day is just "a lack of faith" it makes it come off as arogant to me.

I am not saying Charismatics are perfect people or they have-- some super power. In some ways I think Charismatic, can become like little children with bazookas and they don't know how to operate the gifts (leaving lots of people hurt if used uncorrectly). Thats why authority is so important when it comes to things like tongues and prophecy.

But that's off track...

I have never seen once a Charismatic site- post negative remarks against a fundamentalist group. But yet... that's all that Fundamentalist seem to do nowadays. It seems like to me... Type in "Charismatic Movement" in your search box- and you can have handfulls of "hate" sites towards the Charismatic Church. I read things like Cindy Jacobs being a incarnation of Jezebel, things like Paul Yonggi Cho-pastor of Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea (the largest church in the world) being a buddihist and a cultist. That kind of stuff really makes me kind of little angry. But oh well... I know I am not alone now... I guess.

[SpiritPsalmist]

One thing that kind of makes me a little upset... is one person will just be like so blunt to you... it's not even funny. For example, I share my problems and one person who was a charismatic like I am said, "That's because there is something wrong with you... with your faith..."--- uh no... If I feel like junk one day- I want to talk to someone and I want them to hear me out. They can speak truth but they don't have to be so blunt sometimes. Maybe this is just what I have experienced. To me when somebody tells you why you are having a crappy day is just "a lack of faith" it makes it come off as arogant to me.

I am not saying Charismatics are perfect people or they have-- some super power. In some ways I think Charismatic, can become like little children with bazookas and they don't know how to operate the gifts (leaving lots of people hurt if used uncorrectly). Thats why authority is so important when it comes to things like tongues and prophecy.

But that's off track...

I have never seen once a Charismatic site- post negative remarks against a fundamentalist group. But yet... that's all that Fundamentalist seem to do nowadays. It seems like to me... Type in "Charismatic Movement" in your search box- and you can have handfulls of "hate" sites towards the Charismatic Church. I read things like Cindy Jacobs being a incarnation of Jezebel, things like Paul Yonggi Cho-pastor of Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea (the largest church in the world) being a buddihist and a cultist. That kind of stuff really makes me kind of little angry. But oh well... I know I am not alone now... I guess.

You're right Dave, but we're all learning to grow up and while we can admit that we know that already, it does still hurt. But think about this. . .if God says He gives us a Spirit of love, power, and a sound mind, where do you suppose the spirit of hurt, failure, and feeling stupid comes from?

It does not come from God. So whenever this happens to me. . .these feelings of hurt, failure, and stupidity, etc., I view it as an opportunity to grow. I can start by telling those emotions to be quiet and begin quoting to myself what God says. "Self, God says, He's given you a Spirit. . .a Holy Spirit. . . A Spirit of love. A Spirit of Power. And a Spirit of a sound mind. So self, you just stop your little pity party and listen to God, because while the way you feel may be facts. . .they are certaintly not the Truth."

That may sound silly but the Bible says, "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word". So even if those words have to come out of my own mouth for my ears to hear them, then I will do it. That will help build my faith. It will draw me closer to God. It will be resisting the devil. And it will be causing him to flee.

And most of all. . . it will cause me to grow. http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/sheildsmile.gif We're called to be warriors. . .not whimps.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Mind if I step in. I belong to a Reformed church - HOWEVER we are semi-charasmatic so to say. We act in the gifts, dance, lift hands etc..

Howver - i have to agree with the one poster that said that Charasmatics themselves, can give themselves a bad name. I have witnessed many charasmatic Christians abusing the gifts, tongues imparticular. I mean, hooting and howling and barking and mooing and tongues 24/7 doesn't seem biblical to me.

Like I said - I am charasmatic - biut to some extend...I believe focus should be on God - not on How we feel or what gifts we can use next.

[superdave]

I read Acts and the apostles were so strong in the gifts of the holy spirit. They healed people right on the spot. They cast out demons and all of that- Jesus shown on them that 3,000 people came to the lord in one day. The question I want to ask- is why can't we be like them. It says in the word that in the last days we will prophesy, heal people, see visions... It seems like I only have a small cup of that. I want to be like the Apostles... strong and full of the Holy Spirit.

[altya]

Mind if I step in. I belong to a Reformed church - HOWEVER we are semi-charasmatic so to say. We act in the gifts, dance, lift hands etc..

Howver - i have to agree with the one poster that said that Charasmatics themselves, can give themselves a bad name. I have witnessed many charasmatic Christians abusing the gifts, tongues imparticular. I mean, hooting and howling and barking and mooing and tongues 24/7 doesn't seem biblical to me.

Like I said - I am charasmatic - biut to some extend...I believe focus should be on God - not on How we feel or what gifts we can use next.

You are so right the focus should ALWAYS be on God

I believe we all have to go through a spiritual growing process – from re-born do a mature Christian. The young (baby) Christians also receive spiritual gifts and don’t exactly know how to use them. I can still re-call my baby Christian days – I made so much mistakes and a complete fool of myself. If I now see someone in our church do the same I teach them in a very nice way how to handle the gifts. With this too you have to be very careful, baby Christians take offence very easy. You will know a mature Christian by his/her words and actions it will be similar to Jesus.

[SpiritPsalmist]

I read Acts and the apostles were so strong in the gifts of the holy spirit. They healed people right on the spot. They cast out demons and all of that- Jesus shown on them that 3,000 people came to the lord in one day. The question I want to ask- is why can't we be like them. It says in the word that in the last days we will prophesy, heal people, see visions... It seems like I only have a small cup of that. I want to be like the Apostles... strong and full of the Holy Spirit.


superdave,

I believe we can be like the Apostles. I also believe these things are beginning to happen more frequently than we realize.

Scripture does not tell us all the events of the meetings in the New Testament churches. We don't really know everything that happend. In my personal opinion, I think that their meetings frequently had the same happeings as on the day of Penticost. The people on the outside thought they were all drunk, and I think that many meeting they apperared to be drunk.

I believe they shouted and hooted, and did whatever was known for that day as celebrative actions.

That's not to say that I believe that everything people do is of God. . .but I do believe it is their flesh reacting to God's presense.

It is not wrong for the flesh to respond to God's presense. Our flesh responds in many way's to all sorts of stimuli but when it comes to God people seem to think we're just supposed to stand quietly and not move.

We see Daniel falling continuously due to what he was seeing. We also see it with the Apostle John in the book of revelation. When Jesus was arrested in the garden when He spoke the words "I AM", the whole army of men fell backwards. Their flesh was responding.

I have also seen the flesh respond due to demons on a person throwing fits because of the strong presense of God. Demons especially do not like worship services. They begin to mainifest pretty strongly when there is the possibility of them losing their place of residense.

That's why ALL the gifts need to be in operation. Just because someone "may" be operating wrongly does not mean all of it stops. It does mean that the other gifts step in, such as discenment, and people are set free because they recognise it as the demon it is. When all the gifts are not in operation then there is the probabilty of error. But then we must trust that "God works all things together for good for those who love Him."

As we draw nigh to God and resist the devil, he, the devil will flee from us. As we get to know God more intimately, we will begin to overflow with His presense. Then, everwhere we go that Living Water will flow over onto all we come in contact with.

I don't know that we will always know what is happening around us but again, the scripture says, "And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season, whose leaf also shall not wither; and whatever he does shall prosper" (Ps 1:3)

It's our job to pursue God with everything in us. . .it's His job to fill us to overflowing. . .and that happens by continuously being in His presense.

[sbbqb7n16]

Remember they called John the Baptist crazy too "For John came neither eating nor drinking and they say 'He has a demon!' "... but he had more of the Spirit than they did so he didn't care too much. Until they beheaded him which pretty much ruined the rest of his life. lol

So I'm thinkin maybe Pharisitical jealousy?

[The Midge]

Altya.

I would have liked to have had a person like you around when I was a baby Christian. It would have saved me some grieve. Or perhaps stopped me being a fool.

But babiea are socute.

[superdave]

It is pharisitical spirit... More like the spirit of religion... Even Charismatics sometimes are guilty of the Spirit of Religion. But... people that have no faith cannot accept the Baptism of The Holy Spirit.. it's just that plain and simple.

[RobSav]

My personal opinion is that a lot of people are afraid of it and rather than admit to it
Hmm, I belonged to a Pentecostal church which was more concerned with outward appearances during worship than with real intimate relationships with G-d.

It should've come to no suprise to me that the very same church I attended sent me to a Christian Camp where the Head Pastor's son provided the Drugs and Alcohol for the rest of the kids. This is often what happens when we are more concerned with pleasing spiritual leadership than our own relationships with G-d.

[superdave]

You can speak with tongues of angels... but without Love you are nothing...

So there is our answer right there... :)

All we need is to show love.

This may be off track but I think it's a good point.

[RobSav]

Indeed. In my pentecostal church love was not even brought up, in fact there was a seminar once on learning to speak in "a new tongue" instead of your old one. Rather in-depth theology eh?

[RobSav]

The reason why I am no longer a pentecostal pertains to the fact that they do not practice scripture according to 1 Corinthians 14:27. In that sense, they also disobey Jesus' commandment on short prayers/good works that are not in the presence of other people (in order for it to be between you and g-d only). In my church, the pastor once announced who gained the gift of tongues during the Wednesday night service.

Oh well, as the saying goes; the opposite of law is lawlessness. When you rebel in the name of forsaking legalism you often become legalistic.

[sbbqb7n16]

...(in order for it to be between you and g-d only). ..
God... not god... or for you G-d... not g-d

Sorry I see that as a matter of repsect for Him. I don't mean to sound nit-picky :) lol it's just a pet peeve of mine you could say.

God's name at any time should be capitalized to show Him proper respect.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings lol :D

[RobSav]

Sorry I see that as a matter of repsect for Him. I don't mean to sound nit-picky lol it's just a pet peeve of mine you could say.
God's name at any time should be capitalized to show Him proper respect.

Pharisees would commit good works in order to be seen and commended. Jesus said otherwise. In fact, he told his disciples to hide their faces when fasting(!).

I guess what I'm getting at is rather pointless.

[The Midge]

The reason why I am no longer a pentecostal pertains to the fact that they do not practice scripture according to 1 Corinthians 14:27. In that sense, they also disobey Jesus' commandment on short prayers/good works that are not in the presence of other people (in order for it to be between you and g-d only). In my church, the pastor once announced who gained the gift of tongues during the Wednesday night service.

Oh well, as the saying goes; the opposite of law is lawlessness. When you rebel in the name of forsaking legalism you often become legalistic.

Rob: Isn't this throwing the baby out with the bath water?

I don't go to "Charismatic Churches" because of all that bunk. However I'm pleased that the work of our church is underpinned with people using the spiritual gifts in the background. True, charismatic gifts should not be the focus of a service. That doesn't mean that God's gifts should be spurned, rejected and not used. All denominations have a problem with Super Christian showing off at the front. The forms of this Phariseeism are just different.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Rob: Isn't this throwing the baby out with the bath water?

I don't go to "Charismatic Churches" because of all that bunk. However I'm pleased that the work of our church is underpinned with people using the spiritual gifts in the background. True, charismatic gifts should not be the focus of a service. That doesn't mean that God's gifts should be spurned, rejected and not used. All denominations have a problem with Super Christian showing off at the front. The forms of this Phariseeism are just different.

I cannot speak for other churches but I don't believe that my church abuses these things. However, I suppose there are those who cannot keep their minds on Jesus and choose instead to look around and judge those who are at least trying to get their focus in the right place.

I know there are those in my church who judge me because I'm willing to step out and allow God to use me. . .and it's taken me a long time to be able to step out without a great deal of spiritual wrestling due to the judging I'll receive from those who are doing nothing.

Most of those whom I "fellowship" with closely, incourage me with words of support. Those who choose to view me as "super christian", simply are missing the point in what God is doing. Not due to me, but in spite of me.

IMO, those focusing on the gifts are those who are not participating in true worship. A true worshipper will not judge people in their mistakes. Instead they will pray for them and if they are in a place of authority and correction they will show them the "more excellent way" to operate in that gifting.

[Quiet Storm]

I'm late, but for a long time, I was against the charasmatic movement, and am still in the process of being completely "cleansed" from this judgment, so to speak. It's not because I'm "afraid" of anything, but because there have been a few charasmatic leaders (although anointed men/women of God) who have given messages that I've misinterpreted as condemning people who's manifestation of reacting to the spirit doesn't involve dancing and shouting. For some months, I've been struggling through spiritual warfare and confusion/thoughts of condemnation because I pray silently, prefer to worship silently, and when I pray in the spirit, I do it subtly under my breath. Now the church that I attend, I consider non denominational. I suppose you could call us charasmatic because we regularly have people in the congregation prophecy, we sing in the spirit, we do whatever it is the spirit leads us, but at the same time, the pastor has made it very clear that if one person reacts to the spirit in this way and another person reacts to the spirit in that way neither are more superior to the other. They're not wrong, just different. But because of certain things that other charasmatic leaders have said, I've been lead to believe that despite the fact that my heart is full of love for my brothers/sisters in Christ, I seek the will of God with everything in me, I continuously seek to grow closer to the Lord, I follow all the commandments, I even rebuke myself if I realize that something that I've said or done is even remotely unrighteous and seek how I can grow in the spirit, that because I don't shout or because I prefer to pray silently within myself, that I'm displeasing God. To be honest, this is the first time, I've written this down and it's making me consider the absurdity of it all, but I've seriously been enduring through mental and emotional warfare because of this. I've been praying that God release me from judging others, especially brothers and sisters in Christ, and especially over something as petty as how we choose to worship Him, because He hates division amongst the body. But I don't blame the charasmatics themselves (I guess you could call me a charasmatic too...only I don't shout or jerk/buck), but the church as a whole for being so condemning towards one another. People who prefer to be silent condemn people who shout because "we" think that they're killing the mood, and "they" condemn people who are silent because they say that they're too concerned about what people think (which isn't true).

[cutekid 4 Jesus]

Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

I thought the majority of 'fundamentalists' were charismatic,being from the uk im not familiar with the term fundamentalist,would someone pleaz explain?

[Bruce S]

Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

I understand. But you have to step back, think, and observe.

The old mainline denominations, are caught up in squabbles, social activism, moving away from pure faith and love of Jesus to trying to change the world along liberal lines.

Charismatics are going back to Christianity's roots getting involved in prayer, the Holy Spirit, internalising intructions. Almost mystical. It seems out of character to those without an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we seem fanatical to them, oddballs.

But look what the RESULTS are. Charismatic/Pentecostal groups and denominations are growing by leaps and bounds, filling a need, the older denominations without the gifts of the spirit are dying.

Isn't that a perfect counter to the scoffers? They die off, we grow. Apparently God himself agrees with this movement, for he is driving millions from them to us.

Seek solace in that reality.

[look]

Very true...http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/OLA.gif

[ej]

My experience of 'Charismatics' is limited. It is also very negative.

A large group of girls at my school joined a Charismatic church - it was a fashionable place to be at that time . One by one, they drifted out of it, and either back to atheism / agnosticism, or to their original churches. Every single girl who had attended the church said that they did not believe the things that went on. They all claimed to have faked experiences / tongues speaking, to avoid feeling left out.

At the time, they spoke passionately. After the initial few years, they claimed it had been false. They had not seen a single prophecy which had borne true.

As teenagers, we spoke with these girls about their church. We were interested and intrigued. I and some other friends listened to these girls who told us we must pray for the gifts of prophecy and tongues. We dutifully prayed, and not a single one of us was blessed with such a gift.

This is the basis for my scepticism.

In addition, I wonder how there can have been so few, wise prophets througout history, and now, any person who claims to have such a gift is labelled a prophet. How do you tell the gifted from the false prophets? Is there a formal record of all prophecies?

The second branch of my question concerns these gifts. Why is there so much emphasis upon external, earthly acts? Why is the internal, personal, soulful, peaceful experience of the Holy Spirit (which many other denominations regularly experience) displayed in such a way?

Thanks for your thoughts
Your sister in Christ
Emma

[oneiric]

what's wrong with being charismatic?

[Blade]

I think we are all at different levels. It's when you know Jesus that "reaching the lost" is what matters.

Jesus I am so in love with you..




Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

[ej]

Is there anyone out there who could answer my qustions (above) on this subject?

Thanks
Emma

[mhead66]

Emma - I'll try to give you some insight... at least from where I see it.

Prophecy is a gift from God, and our God is perfect - He never makes mistakes. However, His children do; Jesus scolded the disciples, saying, "Oh, ye of little faith." Peter stepped out of the boat and walked on water, toward Jesus - but, as his faith ebbed, he began to sink. His "ability" to walk on water hadn't faltered, Jesus' capability to supply Peter's need hadn't faltered - Peter's faith had faltered. Jesus said, in Mark 9:23, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes."

A word of prophecy from God can look forward. It can also be given as an insight to an individual or situation, possibly revealing God-given information to that person. Obviously, such "forth-telling" is not equivalent with Scripture - and that's why such prophecy should be tested - by its conformance to God's Word. I Cor. 14:29 says, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge."

Emma, only God (and His revealed Word) is infallible...

Charismatic Christians must admit that the excitement, the joy that the Holy Spirit provides can be the catalyst that draws people to charismatic churches. OF course, this is good - it's drawing people to Christ Jesus, which was the purpose of the baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1:8). On the other hand, it can motivate people to seek the experience, seek the gifts, and not the Giver of the Gifts. This will end up in disappointment, in envy, in frustration.

This was my experience, for several years. Frustration, crying out to God for the filling of the Spirit, instead of focusing on Jesus. But once I received the baptism, I finally felt the "internal, personal, soulful, peaceful experience of the Holy Spirit," as you so eloquently put it. I don't know... thirty years in Baptist churches, and a superficial relationship was all I'd ever known. God gave me a hunger (in my immaturity, I see now) for tongues - I never realized that with HIM I'd get the joy and peace that I'd been craving, and not just from "tongues." This hunger led me to seek the gifts, and by HIs mercy He gave me the fullness of His Spirit. Afterwards, I received my "prayer language," but my hunger was satiated by His presence.

So to try to answer your second question, the "charismatic pre-occupation" with spiritual gifts may just arise from the joy that He gives us as we worship Him - in part using these gifts.

I don't know for sure... just my two cents.

May God richly bless you.

[hal]

At age 90 I have learned to ignore the gainsayers. Scripture says in this world we will suffer persecution. The devil hate those who have the power to defeat him. And he can used ignorant Christians to respond.

[hal]

I have learned to ignore those who are anti-charismatic. So is the devil and his minions.

[ej]

Are you talking about this?

(from www.puritansermons.com (http://www.puritansermons.com/))

False spiritual experiences have a tendency to cause pride, which is the devil's special sin. "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." (1 Tim 3:6) Pride is the inevitable result of false spiritual experiences, even though they are often covered with a disguise of great humility. False experience is enamored with self and grows on self. It lives by showing itself in one way or another. A person can have great love for God, and be proud of the greatness of his love. He can be very humble, and very proud indeed of his humility. But the emotions and experiences that come from God's grace are exactly opposite. God's true working in the heart causes humility. They do not cause any kind of showiness or self-exaltation. That sense of the awesome, holy, glorious beauty of Christ kills pride and humbles the soul.

[hal]

We are called to forgive those who trespass against up. And we can throw in a little pity.

[ej]

We are called to forgive those who trespass against up. And we can throw in a little pity.
A minute ago you ignored anti-Charismatics, and associated them with 'the devil and his minions' and suddenly now you forgive and pity them?

I was wondering whether you had an opinion on the piece I posted?

Peace be with you
Emma

[hal]

That is a bit contradictory, isn't it?

About you piace. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, don't we?

[SpiritPsalmist]

If one experiences God, it can hardly be called false.

Now after the experience, the flesh may rise up and get in the way but the initial experience was not false.

On the mountian top Moses had a very real experience with God. . .yet chose to cover his face due to the complaints of the people who saw him being overwhelmed by the shining of his face. I believe they probably accused him of being showy about his relationship with God. :(

It is true that one can become prideful in their experiences but that does not mean that just because they tell of the experience that they are operating in pride. I think the person who jumps first at pointing the pride out may be the first one operating in pride . . .and jealousy, and resentment, and anger, etc.

[ej]

Please forgive the misunderstanding...

As an Anglo-Catholic, I am ignorant regarding Pentecostal / Charismatic churches. I have not experienced them first-hand. I am keen to learn about them, yet every question I have posed here has been ignored, avoided, or answered in a round-about way.

I very much doubt that Hal was referring to Christians like me when he mentioned 'Anti-Charismatics' and associated them with 'the devil and his minions.' The reason I visit this forum is solely to learn.

I posted the exerpt from puritan sermons because I believe this is referring to Charismatics. Is it puritans that Hal is referring to? Or is he referring to non-Christians?

Thanks
Emma

[YouthPastor]

In addition, I wonder how there can have been so few, wise prophets througout history, and now, any person who claims to have such a gift is labelled a prophet. How do you tell the gifted from the false prophets? Is there a formal record of all prophecies?

The second branch of my question concerns these gifts. Why is there so much emphasis upon external, earthly acts? Why is the internal, personal, soulful, peaceful experience of the Holy Spirit (which many other denominations regularly experience) displayed in such a way?

Thanks for your thoughts
Your sister in Christ
Emma
I am assemblies of God.

I think that "titles" are used way to often. I am not in to "titles" too begin with - But take a look through any christian magazine, Take charisma for example - not putting them down, but look at the ads for confrences - Look how many "apostles" there are - how many "prophets" there are.

So titles mean nothing to me. You walk up to me and tell me you are a prophet - Good. Whoopteedo. For one, if you have to come tell me you are a prophet - that is a good sign you are not. if you are - your gift will be made known. If a person truley is a prophet or an apostle or whatever - they will not have to go around wearing the "title" - they will "show" people their gifts by allowing God to use them.

You can tell a true prophet from a false by this - Does it come true?

In the OT - only selected people were "empowered" by yhe Holy Spirit. Where as under the NT - ALL believers can be "empowered" by the Holy Spirit.

Second phase - As to the external - people are "sight" oriented - seeing is believing. However, the gifts of the spirit are EXTERNAL demonstrations of the Holy Spirit's work.

[YouthPastor]

Please forgive the misunderstanding...

As an Anglo-Catholic, I am ignorant regarding Pentecostal / Charismatic churches. I have not experienced them first-hand. I am keen to learn about them, yet every question I have posed here has been ignored, avoided, or answered in a round-about way.

I very much doubt that Hal was referring to Christians like me when he mentioned 'Anti-Charismatics' and associated them with 'the devil and his minions.' The reason I visit this forum is solely to learn.

I posted the exerpt from puritan sermons because I believe this is referring to Charismatics. Is it puritans that Hal is referring to? Or is he referring to non-Christians?

Thanks
Emma
I think Hal was refering to those who repeatedly attack charasmatics. Those are the ones that are anti-charasmatic. people who are questioning, like yourself, should not be labeled anti-charasmatic and I do not think Hal was including you in that label.