I'm not Lutheran but I want to be and...

[Browneyes84]

I have always felt connected with the ELCA. I don't want to make a hasty decision regarding a church I want to stay with (I've sorta been a nomad...) but I also don't want to make a hasty generalization regarding my decision.

One reason (actually it's almost the main reason) I would prefer to be in the ELCA is because I honestly can't stand how conservative the LCMS and the WELS churches are, especially when it comes to matters that they feel women can't and shouldn't do.

A WELS pastor at school, after I hinted that I would rather be in the ELCA, said that I would be "joining evil and a very unChristian church" if I were to do so.

Am I just being stupid?

[RegularGuy]

I have always felt connected with the ELCA. I don't want to make a hasty decision regarding a church I want to stay with (I've sorta been a nomad...) but I also don't want to make a hasty generalization regarding my decision.

One reason (actually it's almost the main reason) I would prefer to be in the ELCA is because I honestly can't stand how conservative the LCMS and the WELS churches are, especially when it comes to matters that they feel women can't and shouldn't do.

A WELS pastor at school, after I hinted that I would rather be in the ELCA, said that I would be "joining evil and a very unChristian church" if I were to do so.

Am I just being stupid?

It sounds to me as if you would be very happy in the ELCA. We are Lutherans who believe that the Reformation of the Church did not end in the 16th century. We believe the Bible but do not demand that it be interpreted literally. We strive to worship and serve God. We do not believe that honest questioning is the equivalent of faithlessness.

I find it sad that a WELS pastor would feel the need to describe the ELCA in such judgmental terms. UnChristian? Christ crucified is the center of our proclamation. Evil? God is our judge and by our fruits we are known.

[Browneyes84]

It sounds to me as if you would be very happy in the ELCA. We are Lutherans who believe that the Reformation of the Church did not end in the 16th century. We believe the Bible but do not demand that it be interpreted literally. We strive to worship and serve God. We do not believe that honest questioning is the equivalent of faithlessness.



(Runs up to you, gives you a hug and cries)

I have waited for a person to tell me that honestly for such a long time.

[KagomeShuko]

Definitely NOTHING wrong with honest questioning. What keeps me where I am and what I believe is my CONSTANT questioning of things and probably what some would see as circular logic, but I know God loves us and wants us to know what He says. How are we going to learn if we do not question?

I am quite saddened by the harsh words by the WELS pastor. We have WELS members here and while they do not agree with us, I doubt that they would ever call us EVIL. . .they may at times say some very harsh things, but not EVIL and UNCHRISTIAN. We are still Lutherans, still reforming. . .

you should be welcomed. If you are not, it just shows problems with a congregations.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Browneyes84]

Yeah this pastor was sorta on a high horse. He claimed that he knows who is and is not a Christian just be simply asking someone if they believe that the Bible is inerrant and should be read literally...if you don't say "yes" you aren't Christian.

I almost felt like this words were pushing me away, not drawing me to the faith.

And another reason is I like the similarities between the liturgy because I'm so used to going to a Catholic church, but I have disagreements with many of their beliefs. I also don't like how conservative the other Lutheran denominations are. I'm sorry, but if you are a woman who attends her church actively, she should be able to vote in church-related matters without being told that she "is trying to usurp men's authority" and she should not feel bad about speaking in the church-- I mean for goodness sakes, I went to a Catholic church and women spoke all the time-- they read from the Bible, give announcements, ask for prayers, etc. Heaven forbid they open their mouths.

[ctay]

That pastor should have said anything like that. I don't think anyone should put a person down for what church they go to.

[Browneyes84]

He just thinks that what he believes is right.

I find the overall tolerance and respect that I have come across with the ELCA very inviting compared to some other churches. I would much rather be part of a faith where you can say "that isn't what I believe and what I think but I have to respect that you think differently" versus "if you don't believe this or think like that, you are not a true Christian and I will pray for you to get better (the last part said with condescending tone).

[KagomeShuko]

Yes, the ELCA is full of many people who believe in different ways. I'm probably one of the most liberal in social beliefs, but one of the more (but not totally) conservative in Biblical. I like the traditional liturgy, too.

Yet, I get along with those who are not as liberal in social beliefs as I am. I get along with those who are more liberal as well. . .

The ELCA has this core set of beliefs (Christ and Him crucified) and then lots of room to grow.

I hope you do find a great church home, with whatever denomination suits you the best.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[RayJGentry]

I too think that you would find a good fit in the ELCA. However, one thing that I think anyone looking to possibly change churches should look in to is to examine your faith and choose a church based on that. One thing that does frustrate me about the ELCA is that, at times, it seems the politics of poeple (typically being more liberal) influence what they believe the church should do and how the church should believe. I do believe that you can have different beliefs within your faith compared to how America should behave. I do. My biggest exambles are that I believe that gays should be able to get married according to the government, but that it's contrary to scripture. Likewise, because The US government hasn't established when life begins, abortion should be legal, but that no church should condone it. Those are just two examples and are strictly my beliefs. My problem is when someones decides they need to change church doctrine to fit their political beliefs. I do believe they can be seperate. Just examine your faith and beliefs and why you believe the way you do and find a church based on that. God bless and I hope that it helps!

[Browneyes84]

I too think that you would find a good fit in the ELCA. However, one thing that I think anyone looking to possibly change churches should look in to is to examine your faith and choose a church based on that. One thing that does frustrate me about the ELCA is that, at times, it seems the politics of poeple (typically being more liberal) influence what they believe the church should do and how the church should believe. I do believe that you can have different beliefs within your faith compared to how America should behave. I do. My biggest exambles are that I believe that gays should be able to get married according to the government, but that it's contrary to scripture. Likewise, because The US government hasn't established when life begins, abortion should be legal, but that no church should condone it. Those are just two examples and are strictly my beliefs. My problem is when someones decides they need to change church doctrine to fit their political beliefs. I do believe they can be seperate. Just examine your faith and beliefs and why you believe the way you do and find a church based on that. God bless and I hope that it helps!

That does help a lot. I had posted a similar subject in the past regarding how I wanted to find a church. I was then told that I was "trying to fit Christianity to my beliefs" and that I was trying to find what suited me, instead of the "true Church". Personally I think the the "true Church" is Christianity but no denomination-- noone really knows what the true unseen church is (only God).

I have really examined what I believe in. I have found that I am a "sola scriptura" and when I was interested in the Catholic church, they emphasized tradition as well. Now I have nothing against tradition or the Catholic church, but what bothered me is that they emphasized the Catholic church traditions, and that is why they thought scripture and tradition were important. I see significance in observing Lent, Advent, Christmas, and Easter, but by no means does it say in the Bible that we ought to follow any one church's traditions. Okay, I'm done with that :P

I also wanted to touch what RayJ mentioned. I too have been to many churches where they felt that the government should influence what the church should do. But I have also been to churches that were the other way around as well-- they believed that what their church believed should influence the government. You won't believe how many times I have been told that I am "sinning" because I didn't vote for a particular party, or that because I believe in something that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible, I am believing in mad-made traditions.

I want to find a church where I can connect with other Christians in accordance to my beliefs and values. And where I will not be judged on the spot or given 20 questions.

[jcj3803]

I was LCMS, then WELS, then left the church altogether, back to LCMS, now a UMC member but attending an ELCA church on a regular basis (like tonight at 5 or maybe tomorrow at 9, but anyway...)

I don't want to start a debate about the merits of ELCA vs LCMS, but both have problems in my opinion and both have good points.

I think the key is to consider first and foremost what is being preached from the pulpit at *your* church. The rest is secondary.

[jcj3803]

No offense, but there are some in the ELCA who say ELCA is NOT Lutheran anymore but rather "just another liberal Protestant group" and that's why membership has dropped by 80,000 last year (see elca.org). Proviso: I do not know the membership trends for LCMS or WELS.

Just a point of info, I don't want to start a debate.

[filosofer]

He just thinks that what he believes is right.

I find the overall tolerance and respect that I have come across with the ELCA very inviting compared to some other churches. I would much rather be part of a faith where you can say "that isn't what I believe and what I think but I have to respect that you think differently" versus "if you don't believe this or think like that, you are not a true Christian and I will pray for you to get better (the last part said with condescending tone).

Just a note: Arrogance and condescension aren't characteristics of some only in the LCMS/WELS. Having been around the block a few times, I have experienced as much arrogance/condescension from liberals as conservatives. And it is unbecoming no matter who wears it.

Thus, you have a valid concern. But I encourage you to look deeper than this. The differences between church bodies is more than whether a few demonstrate the truth of the doctrine: simul iustus et peccator [at the same time righteous and a sinner].

May God grant you wisdom, patience, and discernment.

In Christ's love,
filo

[Browneyes84]

I have heard that comment regarding the ELCA before and I think it might depend on what church you go to. The churches that are ELCA where I go are still very Lutheran and very much so Christian.

And yes arrogance can occur anywhere-- but I have had the unfortune to come across it in many conservative churches. I mean, you say that you are Christian and are also cultural and some people automatically think bad things in lala land...

I know at the Lutheran church I have been going to so far has only been preaching from the Bible.

[DanielRB]

Peace, All :wave:

I guess my own journey is looking a little like Browneyes'.

My wife and I are searching for a church home. We've discussed it a lot, though we actually haven't started "Church Shopping" yet. Next week I hope we can attend an ELCA Church.

We are looking for an open-minded but Biblical Church. That is, one in which you don't have to believe in a literal six-day creation (for example), but one that doesn't make you feel like some kind of ignorant neanderthal if you do.

Politically, I'm fairly moderate, but I don't want politics (liberal, conservative or moderate) to invade the Church.

Theologically, I'm fairly conservative (though my wife tends to be more liberal than I in some ways.) On the one hand, I think it's important for a Church to be unabashadly Christians (believing in the literal resurrection of Christ, the incarnation and the Trinity), but allows for different viewpoints on the inspiration of Scripture and its interpretation. We also believe that though salvation is through Christ, there will be some non-Christians saved by the same grace that saves us.

Does the ELCA sound like a good fit?

In Christ,

Daniel

[RayJGentry]

I think it does sound like a good fit for you. The in my home church, we have people on practically every side of everything, yet there's still a sort of harmony. Realistically, it depends on the individual congregation. If there is more than one ELCA church, you may want to look at all of them. There are some that seem to be very involved politically, while others are not. Look at what's being preached and talk to the congregation. Get a feel for the church before you make a decision. Good luck in your search!

[jcj3803]

[...]Look at what's being preached and talk to the congregation. Get a feel for the church before you make a decision. Good luck in your search!

You might also want to see if they have a major fund drive coming up. If so, is it something you would want to support?

I say this b/c I know people who have joined churches and become quite disenchanted when they were hit up almost immediately for extra donations to support the latest Big Bucks project.

Not that projects are bad or that we shouldn't contribute, but I think if a person joins an organization they should be prepared to support it if at all possible.