Question regarding Invocation of the Saints

[Protoevangel]

I have a question regarding the ancient, venerable practice of Invoking the Saints in prayer.

"Since, however, that is catholic, as Vincent of Lerins not improperly defines it, which is always and everywhere constantly been accepted by all believers on the basis of Scripture, also this observation must be added, that there was in those times not only doubt about the invocation of the saints, when it had begun to be introduced into the church from private devotions of the common people and of women, but that it was also clearly and with great zeal rebuked and placed into the catalog of heresies by Epiphanius, who lived at almost the same time."
- Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Vol. III, p. 466

Here, according to this Lutheran Father, Epiphanius listed praying to the Saints as a heresy.

Is Chemnitz's claim even true? If it is, was it a certian "form" of invocation that Epiphanius called heresy? Or was Epiphanius simply wrong in his assessment? Any other thoughts you would like to add?

Does anyone know where I can find this "catalog of heresies" or or "Panarion" online? I have googled it with no substantial success, except for printed books WAY out of my pricerange. I may find a library with it, but still, any other ideas?

[Jacob4707]

IIRC, in his book on DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEFS (?), David Bercot lists some quotes re: praying to saints (his book lists quotes under some 700 topics), and the quotes tend to be against doing it. He cites vol. and p. # for the Early Church Fathers (Hendrickson) hardcover editions for the citations. I think some of the quotes were about how it's improper to pray to the saints since they are praying to the same God we are to pray to. I.e., we can acknowledge their joining in our prayers, but asking for their prayers was apparently not an early church practice or one the early church approved of, if Bercot's quotes are representative - again, IIRC (my copy is at home).

[choirfiend]

I would like to point out Chemnitz' bias even if I cannot answer your question:
St. Vincent of Lerins did not say that what had always been believed everywhere by all on the basis of Scripture. To summarize a quote incorrectly and insert one's own bias so clearly would make the rest of his assertions suspect in my eyes.

[Knowledge3]

Epiphanius was not Lutheran.

[Xpycoctomos]

Whop was St Vincent of Lerins? What was his time and region?

[choirfiend]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15439b.htm

[Xpycoctomos]

merci, mon amie :)

[ByzantineDixie]

Epiphanius was not Lutheran.

I had to clean off my monitor after I read this...too funny! ^_^

Dan--I am going to look into this. This seems to be a mystery heresy worth investigating for certain. I need a project right now anyway...work is too stressful and getting ready for Christmas is too stressful and other personal things are too stressful. I need a break from real life. (Had one earlier today...celebrated the Liturgy for the Feast of St. Spyridon. That beats a project! :D)

[Protoevangel]

Epiphanius was not Lutheran.
"Right You Are, Ken!"
- Vic Romano

Not to many people from the fourth and fifth centuries were. ;)

[Knowledge3]

"Right You Are, Ken!"
- Vic Romano

Not to many people from the fourth and fifth centuries were. ;)

Epiphanius was a Roman Catholic bishop of the Apostolic See.

The quotes of the Fathers in the back of the Book of Concord were taken from their own sources.

[Lotar]

Martin Chemnitz did have a nack for "paraphrasing" Fathers to suit his arguments, and for producing supposed quotes from Fathers that no one to this day can find.

I never read Epiphanius, so I can't really say what he wrote. I've never read anything from any Father that was against the invocation of Saints. I know that certain prayers have been found on the walls of the catecombs and that Fathers like Ss. Basil, Gregory the Theologian and Gregory of Nyssa used the invocation of Saints.

[ByzantineDixie]

I would agree that if Epiphanius wrote against invocation then that certainly wouldn't fall in line with St. Vincent's "everywhere, always and by all". Perhaps "in a few places, for a time, by a few". ;)

I am interested what he said in context though.

[Lotar]

"Right You Are, Ken!"
- Vic Romano

Not to many people from the fourth and fifth centuries were. ;)
"AHAHA! Smart people are dumb!"
-Kenny Blakenship

[icxn]

Well I have access to most of Epiphanius writings so if people give me a precise reference I will look it up. Panarion is ~500 pages so skimming through it won't do it.

[icxn]

Update:

While I haven't attempted to search through the Panarion, I did come across a wonderful :) laudation by St. Epiphanius to the Theotokos which reads like the Akathist and runs for 15 pages. :) I think that qualifies as a prayer to the Saints, no?Ὦ μακαρία Παρθένε, ἁγνὴ περιστερὰ, ἡ
οὐράνιος νύμφη Μαρία, οὐρανὸς καὶ ναὸς καὶ θρόνος
τῆς θεότητος· ἡ τὸν ἐξαστράπτοντα ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ
ἐπὶ γῆς ἥλιον ἔχουσα Χριστόν· ἡ φωτεινὴ νεφέλη,
πάμφωτον ἀστραπὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ τῷ κόσμῳ κατα-
λάμψασα Χριστόν· ἡ οὐράνιος νεφέλη, ἡ τὴν βρον-
τὴν τοῦ ἁγίου Πνεύματος ἐν ἑαυτῇ κρυπτομένην τῷ
κόσμῳ καταβιβάσασα, ἡ τὸν ὄμβρον τοῦ ἁγίου Πνεύ-
ματος τῇ πάσῃ γῇ πρὸς καρποφορίαν πίστεως κα-
ταράξασα.
Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ἡ πύλη τῶν οὐρανῶν, περὶ
ἧς ὁ προφήτης κέκραγε...
Which reads more or less:
O blessed Virgin, spotless dove, the
heavenly bride Mary, heaven and temple and throne
of the divinity; she who contains Christ the sun that shines
in heaven and on earth; the illuminated cloud that shone Christ
the bright lighting from heaven which illumined the world.
(...some parts skipped...)
Rejoice, full of grace, the heavenly gate which the prophet proclaimed…

[Protoevangel]

Update:

While I haven't attempted to search through the Panarion, I did come across a wonderful :) laudation by St. Epiphanius to the Theotokos which reads like the Akathist and runs for 15 pages. :) I think that qualifies as a prayer to the Saints, no?

Which reads more or less:
O blessed Virgin, spotless dove, the
heavenly bride Mary, heaven and temple and throne
of the divinity; she who contains Christ the sun that shines
in heaven and on earth; the illuminated cloud that shone Christ
the bright lighting from heaven which illumined the world.
(...some parts skipped...)
Rejoice, full of grace, the heavenly gate which the prophet proclaimed…


Well, the first part almost sounds as if he is speaking about her, not to her, but the ending certainly seems as if it is directed to her.

Thank you for this!

[Knowledge3]

St. John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)

A virgin [Eve] has cast us out from paradise; through a virgin [Mary] we have found eternal life.

[Protoevangel]

I had to clean off my monitor after I read this...too funny!
I rarely know if K3 is kidding around, or attempting to make a contribution to the conversation in his own unique way.

Dan--I am going to look into this. This seems to be a mystery heresy worth investigating for certain. I need a project right now anyway...work is too stressful and getting ready for Christmas is too stressful and other personal things are too stressful. I need a break from real life. (Had one earlier today...celebrated the Liturgy for the Feast of St. Spyridon. That beats a project! )
This would be awesome! :hug: Do you have the book?

I would agree that if Epiphanius wrote against invocation then that certainly wouldn't fall in line with St. Vincent's "everywhere, always and by all". Perhaps "in a few places, for a time, by a few".
Didn't St. Vincent of Lérins originally write "quod ubique, quod semper, quod omnibus creditum est" (what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all) in support of Semi-Pelagianism? If I remember rightly, Prosper of Aquitaine corrected him with the phrase, "ut legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi" (the law of praying establishes the law of belief - isn't that where we get "lex orandi, lex credendi"?). Prosper then quoted a litany from the Roman rite where the church prays for the conversion of unbelievers, idolaters, persecutors, Jews, heretics and schismatics, and concluding that if we pray for their conversion, their conversion must be entirely God’s work. SO while St. Vincent wrote that wonderful statement, we should all be grateful to Prosper for keeping it from being used to support heresy!

I am interested what he said in context though.
Ahh, me too. I would have expected more of the Patristic Scholars among the Reformers to use that as "ammo" more often against the papacy, if the early condemnation of Invocation of the Saints as heresy were true, and not highly contextual. But I have had a pretty high view of Chemnitz's honesty (his paraphrase that Choirfriend pointed out, "on the basis of Scripture", was in context with what he was writing, and his view of the "proper" understanding of the quote. Even though he was incorrect, there was no intentional misrepresentation.), so I expect something was written that Chemnitz misunderstood, or took out of context.

[Knowledge3]

I rarely know if K3 is kidding around, or attempting to make a contribution to the conversation in his own unique way.

You are free to speculate and "think" whatever you wish.

[Protoevangel]

I think I may have found an exceprpt that Chemnitz may have been writing about:

3,1 <3.> A third is Hellenism. This began in Serug's time1 with idolatry and the submission to it by the people of the era-each in accord-ance with some superstition-for the sake of a higher civilization and fix-ed customs and laws.
3,2 However, when idols were first instituted the various peoples made gods for [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e leaders> whose rule they <were> then a&cepting, originally by painting pictures and portraying the autocrats or sorcerers they had always honored, or persons who had done something that ap-peared memorable in their lifetimes, <and stood out> for their courage and physical strength. (3) But then, from the time of Terah2 the father of Abraham, they also introduced the imposture of idolatry by way of statuary. They honored their forefathers, and those who had died before them, with images, at first with the potter's art, then by depicting them with every technique-builders by carving stone, silversmiths and goldsmiths by making them with their media, and so with woodcarvers and the rest. (4) (Egyptians, together with Babylonians, Phrygians and Phoenicians, were the first to introduce this religion, which consisted of image-manufacture and mystery rites.3 Most of these rites were brought to Greece from Cecrops'4 time and onwards.) (5) Afterwards, and much later, they designated Cronus, Rhea, Zeus, Apollo and the rest as gods.
3,6 Hellenes are named for a Hellen, who was one of the settlers of Hellas, and gives the country its name. But as others tell it, it is named for the olive that grew at Athens. (7) Actually the lonians were the first of the Hellenes, <and are named for> lovan, one of the builders of the tower at the time of the division of men's languages. Thus they are all called "Meropes" as well, because of the "divided" speech. (8) But afterwards, at a later period, Hellenism was made into sects-I mean Pythagoreans, Stoics, Platonists, Epicureans and the rest.
3,9 But a type of the worship of God existed together with the natural law, and was customary from the time of these peoples. It set itself apart from the foundation of the world, and existed during the period of Bar-barism, Scythianism and Hellenism, till it was combined with Abraham's worship of God.

If this is what he was talking about, I don't see how much less intellectually honest Chemnitz could have been. This is talking about the Hellenes, not about Orthodoxy. Add to that the prayer that was posted earlier, and we are left with a "non-issue", I would believe.

Not that it should really matter to me anymore... ;)