Hundreds bid farewell to statue-goddess

[jlujan69]

http://www.guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/NEWS01/612110302

Before anyone cries foul, you should have seen how this statue was lavished upon while it was here. In a couple of weeks, either on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, a doll baby "Jesus" will make its way around the villages here on island to be kissed. In either description above, somehow, I have trouble equating the kissing of the photo of a passing loved one with the kissing of these statues.

[twistedsketch]

This story sums up much of what is wrong with Catholicism.

[jlujan69]

This story sums up much of what is wrong with Catholicism.


The comment board on the article page shows how the followers attempt to defend these actions. These statements are very typical.

[Rhamiel]

They are just trying to honer Our Mother

[youthwalk]

http://www.guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/NEWS01/612110302

Before anyone cries foul, you should have seen how this statue was lavished upon while it was here. In a couple of weeks, either on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, a doll baby "Jesus" will make its way around the villages here on island to be kissed. In either description above, somehow, I have trouble equating the kissing of the photo of a passing loved one with the kissing of these statues.

Airport adios: Archbishop Anthony Apuron speaks at the farewell ceremony for the International Pilgrim Virgin Statue of Fatima at the A.B. Won Pat International Airport yesterday. More than 200 people crowded the airport to catch a last glimpse of the statue that was said to have brought miracles.


This is an actual statue right? That people are bowing before "with tears in their eyes"? That they are singing "Goodbye Queen in Heaven" too?

Is this not idolatry?

And before anyone says that a cross is also a symbol that Christians honour...I don't bow to a cross. There is a cross at my church that could very well not be there.


"You get the sense that she'll bring us hope and salvation through her son, Jesus," Anderson said. "I know there will be a consolation in the end knowing that the faith and trust that I have in God by following the faith."


Mary brings salvation through her Son? What?


I can't even begin to understand...
I get the sense that Jesus is God's Son before He's Mary's Son.

[Rhamiel]

youthwalk, I am confused by your last statement, Jesus is both Divine and Human, he is not more the Son of one parent then you are more the daughter of your mother then your father

[twistedsketch]

We're not denying Jesus' nature as the God-Man. Catholics and Protestants are both square on that. However, that nature does NOT give Mary the highly elevated status that many Catholics have given her. She needed to be saved by grace too. She was a good woman, but no more or less divine than the rest of us. In fact, my guess is that she is disgusted with all this extra hubbub about her, wishing that these ultra-devotees would focus on God instead.

[cubanito]

Jesus said that Mary was not His mother, but rather whomever does the will of God. By ecumenical council, when such was still possible, before the bishop of Rome anathemized the other 4 ancient patriarchs (~1054), it was agreed Mary was NOT the Mother of God. The proper title agreed to was: "Theotokos", Greek for "God bearer." That is, she bore God's Incarnate form.

But whatever, go on straining gnats and swallowing camels. Pretend that veneration is clearly differentiated from adoration by the masses. Continue substituting the traditions of men for the clear instructions of God.

But in this sub-forum it is Scripture that counts.

In Scripture Mary acknowledges the need for a Saviour. If she were immaculate, what salvation would she need? The righteous can not die, as death is the product of sin. The righteous can only lay down their life willingly, as Christ did. He needed no Saviour. He was Mary's saviour.

Same Jesus that calls her "woman" and pointedly denies her the title of mother; even as she thought Him insane.

JR

[Rhamiel]

Catholics agree that Mary was saved by the grace of God from sin, and I know that this is not the place for debate but most of us see a healthy focus on Mary as helping us to better understand Christ, of course Christ is true God and true Man, Our Savior, and the main focus is on Him.

"Same Jesus that calls her "woman" and pointedly denies her the title of mother; even as she thought Him insane." you said "But in this sub-forum it is Scripture that counts." the idea that Mary thought Jesus was insane is unscriptural,she found Him in the temple at an early age teaching the teachers, she was there at his first recourded mirical water into wine and she was with Him up until the moment of His death on a cross Matt 1:18 calls Mary His mother.
The use of the word woman is not agianst the word mother John 19:26 He says Woman, behold your son and then to his desciple behold your mother I am sorry I know this is not the place for debate but I feel you are misrepresenting Catholic belife and need to be corected
you are all formally invated to OBOB the catholic section of the forum to learn more about what we really think

[twistedsketch]

Catholics agree that Mary was saved by the grace of God from sin, and I know that this is not the place for debate but most of us see a healthy focus on Mary as helping us to better understand Christ, of course Christ is true God and true Man, Our Savior, and the main focus is on Him.

If the main focus is really on Him, why on earth would people cry over a statue of His mother leaving? The focus these people have on her doesn't look healthy at all.

[cubanito]

I frankly would be upset if even a statue of Christ, or even a simple wooden cross would be accorded such honors. These are physical objects to remind us of God, they are NOT sacred of themselves.

I do not object to someone's personal attachment to some trinket (say a wooden cross around their neck) which happenstance has linked it in their minds to the Invisible God or the Resurrected God-Man Christ. But all such objects are only as reminders.

There are Protestant TV evangelists that sell various trinkets in a manner that is indistinguishable from the worst excesses of the middle ages RC. So you betcha idolatry is in many places.

I see no problem debating the role of Mary here, so long as it is completely limited to Scripture, in keeping w the rules. In those Scriptures Jesus chided His parents for not understanding where He'd be as child, and clearly was thought mentally unbalanced by Mary and His brothers as an adult.

In the passage you reference, we see Jesus taking the care to make sure He did not leave a widow uncared for (who was His mother in all human matters). Yet even then He does not refer to her as mother, rather tells, John she is now his responsibility. Why John is charged with this, and not one of Jesus' physical brothers is unclear to me. It may have been that none of them were around to see their eldest brother die in disgrace, and so Jesus turns to the only man there to provide for Mary. A woman without someone to "speak for her" in those days was in a sorry condition indeed.

Anyway, I don't see any problem with a courteous debate, but it is of course up to the moderator. I certainly have no desire to deride Mary, for she was indeed highly favoured of God, blessed above all other women. But sinless? Co-redemptrix? Queen of Heaven? A statue of her treated with such devotion?

Not Scriptural by a long shot.

JR

[jlujan69]

I see no problem debating the role of Mary here, so long as it is completely limited to Scripture, in keeping w the rules. In those Scriptures Jesus chided His parents for not understanding where He'd be as child, and clearly was thought mentally unbalanced by Mary and His brothers as an adult.


JR

I looked up the passage you referred to (Mk. 3:20-21)and it said that Jesus' friends thought Him beside Himself. Mary is mentioned at the end of the chapter, but only in the "who are my mother and brothers?" statement by Jesus. Is there another incident you're referring to?

[Rhamiel]

you said "thought mentally unbalanced by Mary" but did not back it up with any scripure, the gospals show her at meeting with the angel Gabriel, finding Him in the temple teaching at an early age, a witness, no incouraged, His first mirical, and was with Him up until His Death.
"I certainly have no desire to deride Mary, for she was indeed highly favoured of God, blessed above all other women." Then how come every time catholics honer Our Mother we get stuff like "Hundreds bid farewell to statue-goddess" thrown at us? it is not the statue that we love but the person it represents.

[jlujan69]

Then how come every time catholics honer Our Mother we get stuff like "Hundreds bid farewell to statue-goddess" thrown at us? it is not the statue that we love but the person it represents.

Because there's a chasm between what Catholic apologists say that they think of Mary and what Catholics actually demonstrate. You say it's not worship, yet the actions of those in the article belie your claim. If it were another created being receiving this kind of "honor", how quickly and correctly it'd be pointed out that it was actually worship. As the old saying goes: if it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, lays duck eggs, and little ducklings hatch from those eggs (ok, I added the last couple of phrases), then it certainly isn't a coconut tree.

[Rhamiel]

to these people the statue represents Our Mother, they know that she is not leaving them but a meaningful symbol is being taken away, like if they were tearing down the church you grew up in, you know the morter and stone is not what is important but it still has a place in your heart. That is about the sadness at the statue leaving, the attention it was shown while there was holy and right, the kissing of the baby Jesus, we do not kiss it because a god lives inside it, but because it represents Our Lord who became man so we could be saved, same thing with the statue of Mary, you are way out of line calling it a "statue-goddess" just because some people honer the Mother of Our Lord you call that idoletry? She gave birth to my Lord, how can I not love her, she has been a comfort to my soul in times of pain, she interceds to her Son for me, I love her more then any other creature on earth or in heaven. She is not God and no one is sayong she is God.

[No Swansong]

I would like to remind our non-fundamentalist brothers and sisters that while they are welcome to post fellowship posts and questions on the board they may not, according to CF rules, debate.

[Rhamiel]

I am debating fundamentalist doctrine, but what is being said about my Church by outsiders. Not once did I tell a fundamentalist what they believe although many have tried to tell me what I believe

[No Swansong]

Thread is being closed for review.

The no debate rule is not limited to only Fundamentalist Doctrine. To remain consistent we must abide by CF rules. There are other fora on CF for which this type of debate is appropriate. I recommend General Theology if you wish many voices or Denominational Debate if you want a more narrow group of contributors.

[No Swansong]

This thread is being reopened. This is a reminder for our Fundamentalist Churches members to read the standards of the board found here (http://www.christianforums.com/t672730-rules-for-this-forum-read-before-posting-updated-6-16-05.html)
And for our non-Fundamentalist Churches members that fellowship posts and questions are always welcome but CF rule 1.4 disallows debate.