Self defense, is it wrong?

[RichardT]

What are your opinions on this.

[mont974x4]

Depends on the reason you are being attacked. Also, how you are attacked and what you mean by self defense.

[RichardT]

Depends on the reason you are being attacked. Also, how you are attacked and what you mean by self defense.

I'm thinking NWO and using a gun.

[mont974x4]

ahhhh, I don't know, yet. This is actually a discussion I am involved in on another message board.

We're still exploring the issue and studying it.

[aReformedPatriot]

This is an interesting topic, one in which I would like to see if a Dissertation has ever been written on the topic at my school. There tend to be several points of view from complete pascifism to "kill them all and let God sort them out" (Pope Innocent III). And there have been medial positions like those who say "depends on the circumstance" and whether or not it involves persecution.

Obviously by looking at my sig, one can conclude that I believe self-defense is proper.

When looking at this topic propenets of both sides often bring up the following verses:


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Depending on how you interpret these verses it could lead to all of the above views I mentioned. I personally believe that these verses do not lead to a life of pascifism. Very simply, three presented discuss the idea of insults. It was (and still is) a tremendous insult to slap someone across the face. Rather than slapping back (trading insult for insult) the Christian is to endure the insult. And secondly, the idea of an eye for an eye presents the case of vengence. So Scripture clearly prohibits both vengence and returning insult for insult. Neither case forces one to become a pascifist in his worldview.

There are other verses that will probably be brought up but for the sake of time and my wanting to play a game, I am going to end my thoughts here for now.

I will quickly add that I do think there are times to lay down one's life for the sake of the gospel. For instance, Jim Elliot and his crew were fully prepared to defend their lives but decided against it. This led to sweeping change for that tribe and the salvation of many. And so not all situations are the same and must be examined (sometimes quickly) using godly wisdom and intuition and faith that the Lord is going to do a work even through your own demise. Other times, the situation may be reversed and this too you must trust wholly in the Lord's providence.

I can tell you that in every situation wherein my wife or children were threatened, I will use all means available to protect them as God has made me the head of my family.

[Gear853]

i don't think self defense, in a physical fight is wrong... but throwing insult back and fore just isn't Christian like =)

[mont974x4]

This is an interesting topic, one in which I would like to see if a Dissertation has ever been written on the topic at my school. There tend to be several points of view from complete pascifism to "kill them all and let God sort them out" (Pope Innocent III). And there have been medial positions like those who say "depends on the circumstance" and whether or not it involves persecution.

Obviously by looking at my sig, one can conclude that I believe self-defense is proper.

When looking at this topic propenets of both sides often bring up the following verses:


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Depending on how you interpret these verses it could lead to all of the above views I mentioned. I personally believe that these verses do not lead to a life of pascifism. Very simply, three presented discuss the idea of insults. It was (and still is) a tremendous insult to slap someone across the face. Rather than slapping back (trading insult for insult) the Christian is to endure the insult. And secondly, the idea of an eye for an eye presents the case of vengence. So Scripture clearly prohibits both vengence and returning insult for insult. Neither case forces one to become a pascifist in his worldview.

There are other verses that will probably be brought up but for the sake of time and my wanting to play a game, I am going to end my thoughts here for now.

I will quickly add that I do think there are times to lay down one's life for the sake of the gospel. For instance, Jim Elliot and his crew were fully prepared to defend their lives but decided against it. This led to sweeping change for that tribe and the salvation of many. And so not all situations are the same and must be examined (sometimes quickly) using godly wisdom and intuition and faith that the Lord is going to do a work even through your own demise. Other times, the situation may be reversed and this too you must trust wholly in the Lord's providence.

I can tell you that in every situation wherein my wife or children were threatened, I will use all means available to protect them as God has made me the head of my family.
Not a bad post, brother.

First, the eye for an eye issue...I believe the original OT text served to maintain a measured response. While manu would say, well they took my eye so I will take his. Many will also want to take more than just the eye in retaliation. The purpose of criminal punishment is to repay the debt..restitution...not revenge or rehab.


So, I think we are free to go that far but we don't have to and should strive to not go as far as we are allowed.


Second, I like your comment about your family. When I was growing up I usually just took my licks as they came turning the other cheek but would gladly fight...and did and more than a couple of occassions...when it someone else was attacked, whether I knew the victim or not. I firmly beleive that a safe environment is included in our provision for our family and the BIble says we are worse than an unbeleiver if we do not provide for our family.



Keep in mind, I'm still talking this out as we study and pray about it together.

[JPPT1974]

I would love to find a karate class but
That teaches Christian morales as
There are karate classes that teach
Christian morales
But as far as a gun, I hate guns
I mean hate them! They maim and kill people.

[mont974x4]

I would love to find a karate class but
That teaches Christian morales as
There are karate classes that teach
Christian morales
But as far as a gun, I hate guns
I mean hate them! They maim and kill people.
guns are no more to blame for deaths than my keyboard is to blame for my typos

[JPPT1974]

guns are no more to blame for deaths than my keyboard is to blame for my typos

My dad wants to target practice with
One of my maternal uncles as I told him
Once do what you got to do with the gun
But keep it away from me
Just hate guns as they are scary.

[Hagios17]

“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”



…Romans 12:19-21


Will your sword / gun / fist deliver you from evil?

Are you that ignorant of the Scripture?

[Hagios17]

Karate, judo, jet-kun-do, sword fighting, etc. are worldly methods of self-defence… Christ is our defence… our protector. He is our offence.

[Hagios17]

Which is bigger: Jesus or your gun?

[Hagios17]

The family arguement is an appeal to the flesh.

God who brought brimstone and fire upon sodom and gomorah, who drowned Pharoah in the see, killed many people in the Bible, even Saul, God who is an all consuming fire. Delivered Israel from its enemies many times. Isn't God a christians means of defence?:P

[mont974x4]

Yes, He is our defense. However, if you look at the Bible we see examples of Him working through men to provide that defense.

[TwinCrier]

Yes, He is our defense. However, if you look at the Bible we see examples of Him working through men to provide that defense.
:amen:
Yes, self defense isn't only acceptable, it's required. If you allow someone to abuse you are no victim. Some people twist scripture to claim that self defense, the defense of others, or seeking out justice is the same as seeking out vengeance. Permitting the death or abuse of yourself and others in the name of pacifism isn't noble or Christ-like.

[RichardT]

:amen:
Yes, self defense isn't only acceptable, it's required. If you allow someone to abuse you are no victim. Some people twist scripture to claim that self defense, the defense of others, or seeking out justice is the same as seeking out vengeance. Permitting the death or abuse of yourself and others in the name of pacifism isn't noble or Christ-like.

100% agreed

[Salamon]

:amen:
Yes, self defense isn't only acceptable, it's required. If you allow someone to abuse you are no victim. Some people twist scripture to claim that self defense, the defense of others, or seeking out justice is the same as seeking out vengeance. Permitting the death or abuse of yourself and others in the name of pacifism isn't noble or Christ-like.
Nicely put!

No Self defence is not not wrong! Verbally or Physically. The Bible says not to avenge yourself. Big difference between vengeance and defence.
Definitions:
Main Entry: ven·geance
Pronunciation: 'ven-j&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from venger to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge -- more at Vindicate
: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : Retribution
- with a vengeance
1 : with great force or vehemence <undertook reform with a vengeance>
2 : to an extreme or excessive degree [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e tourists are back--with a vengeance>

Main Entry: 1de·fense
Pronunciation: di-'fen(t)s; as antonym of "offense," often 'dE-"
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin defensa vengeance, from Latin, feminine of defensus, past participle of defendere
1 a : the act or action of defending [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e defense of our country> <speak out in defense of justice> b : a defendant's denial, answer, or plea
2 a : capability of resisting attack b : defensive play or ability <a player known for good defense>
3 a : means or method of defending or protecting oneself, one's team, or another; also : a defensive structure b : an argument in support or justification c : the collected facts and method adopted by a defendant to protect and defend against a plaintiff's action d : a sequence of moves available in chess to the second player in the opening
4 a : a defending party or group (as in a court of law) [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e defense rests> b : a defensive team
5 : the military and industrial aggregate that authorizes and supervises arms production <appropriations for defense> <defense contract>

Sorry but I like to make clear the meanings!:)
Hope no one minds!

[Salamon]

Whats up with the wash my mouth thing??
Definitions from Websters Dictionary.

[TwinCrier]

Whats up with the wash my mouth thing??
Definitions from Websters Dictionary.Yesh, but some words, or parts of words, don't make it past the Christian forums profanity filter. I'm just glad my name isn't Michelle. ;)

[FallingWaters]

I'm thinking NWO and using a gun.What is NWO, and what does the Bible say about self-defense?

[mont974x4]

NWO...New World Order

I believe the concern is the safety of our families and how we will provide for them w/o taking the mark of the beast.

[MrJim]

...maybe we can run and hide out in the woods & mountains and create an underground army that will work at sabotaging the NWO...might have to engage in some black ops and wet work...like Red Dawn...

[mont974x4]

Good movie and a fitting reference. :D

[Hagios17]

True. God has worked through men... but this is still GOD working.

Defence comes of God, and if God shows you that you must kill those people over there, then sure. God works in mysterious ways, but makes sure that its God and not your flesh.

As for the Self-defence thingy, I'm afraid that if you thoroughly research martial arts, karate, kun-fu, etc. you'll find the lead to the occult.

There is an ancient legend, more than likely true... so I’ll rather just call it a story:P . Its of some Chinese, or is it Japanese:scratch:, dude who was taught by some spirit the early roots of the arts defence while consorting with these entities. For those who know... arts of self defence have come directly out of pagan nations such as china, Japan and India. And these arts have been developed into more deadly arts. Experience under these arts will show that meditation/yoga are essential to the arts. Why, you say? Cause they go hand in hand. And even if you don’t practice yoga directly, you're still practicing it in your arts of defence in a less obvious form. You’ll perform best in the arts when you are relaxed, focused and your mind empty of other things. Demonic activity is very, very prominent in these sorts of things that give way to ungodliness. You will also finds certain moves within... hard to say how much, but most of them, are a sort of summoning upon certain spirits when in action. Oriental Hand to hand combat is not to be trusted. Don’t get yourself involved in this stuff; you'll ironically be the one getting hurt in the long run, and more by demons then actually people.

Oh, and I remember this Christian pastor h - who was involved in kung fu! ... How crazy is that. Preaching the gospel of peace, yet if you mess with him it’s of with your head, lol. But that is really unacceptable. Cause these things feed the flesh rather than the spirit.

I was involved in judo, free-style fighting and oriental sword fighting, and a very low form of meditation. From personal experience I can tell that all these and much, much more are definite areas of demonic activity. These things really damaged me spiritually:( ... I've had dreams about demons, seen the darkness fall over me, been communicated to by the darkness. This stuff isn't funny. It will gobble up and devour us sheep, like snap! So please don’t promote or encourage other Christians to get involved in these oriental forms of self-defence.

Also, there is a force that one may encounter during his/her involvement in these demonic arts: Ki or Chi (there both the same essentially, just ones is in Chinese and the other in Japanese). The more experience you have with Ki energy, or demonic energy, and how to harness it, the more dangerous you become to your enemy. And people can do weird stuff by properly harnessing this energy, the iron fist, pretty self explanatory, special punches and kicks under the influence of Ki.

You really don’t want to get involved in a fight with an experience oriental fighter like a monk or something else like that lol. Cause they'll beat the faeces out of you:P

Also, Meditation doesn't empty the mind for focus, but gives you the allusion that this is being done at your expense; cause all its really doing is inviting demons in and around you. And besides, Christian meditation is rooted in filling your mind with Gods word, as it says in psalms, so why on earth should we do it oriental style. They’ve got it all backwards. We should be telling these Chuck Norisses of our meditation and how very coooooooooool ours is:) But if you feel you must go and have a bash with Satan and the kigdom. I can’t stop you… only inform you. You'll just have to fall on your head as I did, but if you wanna know more about this stuff, I will try my best to impart the knowledge:

Quote from Invader Zim, by Grr, Episode ???“The knowledge. It fills me. It is sweet.”

And if you still get involved in this stuff, I still love you And so does Jesus…

Shalom, Lechayim!

Be blessed in wonderful Yeshua!

Hagios17