The Rapture

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Alrighty then! I posted a question about the coC beliefs of the Rapture. It has sparked me to inquire your beliefs of the Rapture.

After taking the poll, comment on your beliefs. Why do you believe this? Because someone always told you that or do you have Scriptural referrence?

Anyone care to summize their opinion on the Rapture? What is the history behind it?

Should make for an interesting and educational thread!

God Bless

[mont974x4]

Where's the mid-trib option.


Just asking as I know some people do hold that belief.

I haven't decided what I think yet. lol

[Matthan]

This is my own personal opinion, for what it is worth.

We can read in Revelation Chapter 7, verses 9 to 14, to see what I believe is the end result of the Rapture of believing Christians.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Notice, in v.14, that the Angel tells John these individuals "are they which came out of great tribulation." They did not go through great tribulation, but instead came out of it. That is why I believe this is the "Rapture" of believers in Jesus. And, this is why I am a pre-tribulation kind of guy.

Matthan

[DeaconDean]

Deleted in the interest of peace.

[mont974x4]

hmmmm

YLT
Rev 7:13 And answer did one of the elders, saying to me, `These, who have been arrayed with the white robes--who are they, and whence came they?'
Rev 7:14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
Rev 7:15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His sanctuary, and He who is sitting upon the throne shall tabernacle over them;
Rev 7:16 they shall not hunger any more, nor may the sun fall upon them, nor any heat,
Rev 7:17 because the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters, and wipe away shall God every tear from their eyes.'


It seems this passage is in the present tense. If you use a KJV, check out the phrase "they which came" from verse 14 in Strongs below...

G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

[DeaconDean]

Deleted in the interest of peace.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Where's the mid-trib option.


Just asking as I know some people do hold that belief.

I haven't decided what I think yet. lol
I forgot about that one, sorry. I tried to add it, but to no avail. Call that one a write in as the polls are not scientific.

[mont974x4]

I don't know, I honestly never studied it. lol

[DiscipleOfIAm]

To be totally honest, your more than likely not going to get very many responses on this because if I come and say why I either believe in a rapture, or don't believe in a ratpure, it doesn't take long before a heated debate starts. As far as rapture theology is concerned, the opinions are varied and diverse. What it really boils down down to is the individuals interpretation of scripture. Traditionally, there are several lines of thought on this, pretrib, which says that before the tribulation starts, Jesus will return, gather the elect, and at the end of the tribulation period, return with the angels and the elect to defeat Satan. There is the mid-trib rapture which believes that Christians will endure the first three and a half years of tribulation, then Jesus will return gather His elect, and at the end of the tribulation, He will return with the angels and the elect to defeat Satan. And then there are the Amillenialists who believe in no rapture at all. Christians will endure the whole of the tribulation period and will be rewarded during the millennial period when Christ sets up His millennial kingdom.

I will give this link for you to research and investigate for yourself, the points on each position.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/eschatology.html

It is better to check out for yourself, the theology behind all sides, before asking and a heated debate starts. Please, check out the info first, come to your own decision, and then ask as to why people believe what they do. Also, the eschatology thread is a good place to see the debates on "rapture theology."

God Bless

Till all are one.

In no way was this thread intended to be a debate. As far as me checking out things myself and coming to my own conclusions, that was done years ago. I had started a thread in the RM forum and also here inquiring if coC believed in the Rapture. Some of the responses and PM's sparked this thread. It is just a general "your opinion" thread and if anyone wanted to throw in some historical or educational info, great!

But, I already voted and "researched" for myself many years ago! Thanks, though!

God Bless!

[mesue]

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
It will be a fun ride up :D

[DeaconDean]

Deleted in the interest of peace.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

God Bless you in your convictions. But mark my words, this may get real ugly, real fast. I'll keep an eye on this.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Isn't that too bad, though? Isn't it a shame that we cannot discuss our convictions and opinions openly and share historic, educational facts without someone getting upset and getting "heated"?

I hope we can stick to not debating, but if we have to, then keep it clean!

[HypoTypoSis]

The rapture (as it is called) is at the end of days for the living that are saved in Christ.

The resurrections spoken of at (the time of) the end of days are for those sleeping that are saved in Christ.

[HypoTypoSis]

Revelation Chapter 7, verses 9 to 14, to see what I believe is the end result of the Rapture of believing Christians.

This is PART of the end result, yes. This is not the 'rapture'. It is after the fact. Likely it is both rapture and resurrection. Division must be made in this respect.

Notice there are at least two resurrections of the saved mentioned: first, there are the martyrs that rule for a time with Jesus determining the rewards and recompense based upon works and,

Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

second, there are those a thousand years later.

1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Revelation 20:5, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

So, apparently, the "first" resurrection is a two-parter.

Then we have those that are alive on the earth at the end of days

1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

that are saved immediately preceeding the galactic-wide eruption of the lake of fire that destroys the entire universe.

2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

After the universe has been destroyed and there is no longer any fuel and the fire goes out God then creates a new heaven and a new earth.

Revelation 21:1, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Dean is correct is his "multi-layered" assumption in that Revelation's scene continually shifts back and forth between the earth and the spirit world--deducing which is which is a key element in properly placing events in their correct order.

Revelation 20:11-15, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;


The heaven and earth and everything in it has already been destroyed.


and there was found no place for them.


Those that were alive and unsaved at the end are, also, destroyed.


And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

First, it must be recognized that "dead" here is "sleeping", a term only used of the saved.

Notice it does not say good and bad or good and evil but "small and great"


and the books were opened:


Plural, so at least two books.


and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

At the least, a third book book.


nd the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


"By the works of the flesh shall no man be justified (for salvation)". So it would be redundantly useless to judged the unsaved based upon their works; particularly, as since they were already convicted and found wanting before the foundation of the earth was laid at the same time God foreknew those that would later be and that would accept Jesus. Thus, this passage is for the determination and dispensing of rewards for the works of the saints.


And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

Those sleeping in Christ are either in the ground or in the sea; here we see the sea giving up the saved as part of the resurrection of the saints.


and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:


"Hell", properly translated here is, "the grave" and, properly understood reads: "...and death and the grave delievered up the sleeping [saints]..."


and they were judged every man according to their works.


Again, works, not determining salvation but rewards for the saints efforts in the Lord.


And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.


Still flipping between earthly and heavenly between time and timelessness: And death and the grave were cast into Peter's lake of fire:


2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

This is the second death.


The death of death.


And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."


Is it possible for the unsaved to make it through the destruction of the universe?

[Andyman_1970]

I don't believe in the rapture..........I'm the one vote........LOL

[aquickGodlyquestion]

very close to it!

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I don't believe in the rapture..........I'm the one vote........LOL
Not to debate or belittle your view, but why not? Was there something in Scripture you read either differently or didn't find? Jsut curious!

[JPPT1974]

I don't believe in the rapture but I do
Believe in the resurrection and second coming
Of Christ when the world ends.

[HypoTypoSis]

I don't believe in the rapture

Are you saying you do not believe the following verse?

1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Because that is what is referred to as "the rapture".

[Andyman_1970]

No I do not beleive the literal interpretation (as in those who are in Christ will literally be flying through the air) of that passage, I do not believe Paul meant that to be taken literally.

[Andyman_1970]

Not to debate or belittle your view, but why not? Was there something in Scripture you read either differently or didn't find? Jsut curious!

I won't debate my position but I will share a few of the reasons why I don't believe in the rapture.

First, I find no substantation in either the Hebrew Scriptures, the Apocrapha, or the Oral Torah for such an event. Second, the Jewish style of writing employs alot of symbols, imagery, metaphors to descripe cosmic events that are not literal pictures of what will happen. Third, I believe, with the exception of Luke (a converted Gentile) all the authors of the Scripture were thoroughly Jewish, and as such that needs to be applied to our understanding of the Scripture. Fourth, I find the idea that through our knowledge of Christ we get to escape the earth and spend eternity in Heaven highly Gnostic. Fifth, (not related directly to the rapture but mentioned in this thread), I can find no evidence in 1st century Judism that the expected God to end the space time universe as we know it when the "day of the LORD" comes to pass.

With all that said, I do affirm the ressurection of the dead on the "Day of the LORD" and that when the Messiah returns earth will be reconciled into the creation God orginally created it to be and intended it to be the first time and those who are in the Messiah will dwell with Him for eternity on said reconciled creation.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I won't debate my position but I will share a few of the reasons why I don't believe in the rapture.

First, I find no substantation in either the Hebrew Scriptures, the Apocrapha, or the Oral Torah for such an event. Second, the Jewish style of writing employs alot of symbols, imagery, metaphors to descripe cosmic events that are not literal pictures of what will happen. Third, I believe, with the exception of Luke (a converted Gentile) all the authors of the Scripture were thoroughly Jewish, and as such that needs to be applied to our understanding of the Scripture. Fourth, I find the idea that through our knowledge of Christ we get to escape the earth and spend eternity in Heaven highly Gnostic. Fifth, (not related directly to the rapture but mentioned in this thread), I can find no evidence in 1st century Judism that the expected God to end the space time universe as we know it when the "day of the LORD" comes to pass.

With all that said, I do affirm the ressurection of the dead on the "Day of the LORD" and that when the Messiah returns earth will be reconciled into the creation God orginally created it to be and intended it to be the first time and those who are in the Messiah will dwell with Him for eternity on said reconciled creation.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Andyman_1970 again.

[mlqurgw]

I don't believe there is such a thing as the Rapture because I find no basis in the Scriptures for a 2 part second coming of Christ. We will be caught up to meet Him in the air and come with Him as He is coming but that is not a Rapture. The word only came to be used as Dispensational theology became more widespread.

[HypoTypoSis]

I don't believe there is such a thing as the Rapture because I find no basis in the Scriptures for a 2 part second coming of Christ. We will be caught up to meet Him in the air and come with Him as He is coming but that is not a Rapture. The word only came to be used as Dispensational theology became more widespread.


To my recollection no one ever stated, or intimated, anything about a two part second coming of Jesus.

A two part resurrection and a one part rapture was referenced.

As to the two part resurrection, there are the martyrs that are resurrected (if, indeed, not already resurrected and present with the Lord) and, a thousand years later, those that are still asleep.

As to the rapture that can only refer to those that are still alive at the end of this creation.

I would be inclined to agree with you, being "caught up" was, later, replaced by the word "rapture". Either way, pointless semantics as they both refer to the same event.

[mont974x4]

I don't believe there is such a thing as the Rapture because I find no basis in the Scriptures for a 2 part second coming of Christ. We will be caught up to meet Him in the air and come with Him as He is coming but that is not a Rapture. The word only came to be used as Dispensational theology became more widespread.
I think your just arguing semantics. Rapture just being a word used to label when the dead will rise and we will meet him.

While the word itself isn;t found in the Bible, the principle idea is...similar to the Trinity.

[mlqurgw]

I think your just arguing semantics. Rapture just being a word used to label when the dead will rise and we will meet him.

While the word itself isn;t found in the Bible, the principle idea is...similar to the Trinity.All I was doing was answering the OP. He asked us to vote and give a reason for our vote.
As far as the semantics go I do believe that "The Rapture" is an intregal part of Dispensational Pre-Millenial Eschatology. Therefore it isn't semantics. Much of their system depends on it.

[mont974x4]

lol ok

[greeker57married]

This is my own personal opinion, for what it is worth.

We can read in Revelation Chapter 7, verses 9 to 14, to see what I believe is the end result of the Rapture of believing Christians.



Notice, in v.14, that the Angel tells John these individuals "are they which came out of great tribulation." They did not go through great tribulation, but instead came out of it. That is why I believe this is the "Rapture" of believers in Jesus. And, this is why I am a pre-tribulation kind of guy.

Matthan

They which come out of the great tribulation (hoi erchomenoi ek tēs thlipseōs tēs megalēs). Present middle participle with the idea of continued repetition. "The martyrs are still arriving from the scene of the great tribulation" (Charles). Apparently some great crisis is contemplated (Mat_13:19.; Mat_24:21; Mar_13:10), though the whole series may be in mind and so may anticipate final judgment. (A.T. Robertson)

In order to to understand the time frame of The book of Revelation you need to look at Revelation 1:19.

Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter

(the things which thou sawest) Past tense Rev. chapters 1, (the things which are) present tense chapters 2-3, (The things which shall come to past hereafter) future tense, chapters 4-22.

The rapture takes place probably atthe beginning of chapture 4:1, μετα ταυτα "After these things" the events of chapters 2-3. Which is the Church age. Rev. 7:14 is during the tribulation and the phrase, "They which came out" is present middle which means "were repeatedly coming out."

God Bless
greeker

[Joykins]

I believe in the rapture in the sense that it will happen to those who are still living at the time of the resurrection of the dead and the triumphant return of Christ. The resurrection will begin and then the living will be caught up in the event.

[jsimms615]

Alrighty then! I posted a question about the coC beliefs of the Rapture. It has sparked me to inquire your beliefs of the Rapture.

After taking the poll, comment on your beliefs. Why do you believe this? Because someone always told you that or do you have Scriptural referrence?

Anyone care to summize their opinion on the Rapture? What is the history behind it?

Should make for an interesting and educational thread!

God Bless
There are a few other options on this poll that aren't there. Maybe there should be an other category. Some thing the rapture is in the middle of the tribulation period and some don't believe in a literal tribulation period at all.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

There are a few other options on this poll that aren't there. Maybe there should be an other category. Some thing the rapture is in the middle of the tribulation period and some don't believe in a literal tribulation period at all.
This was addressed on Page 1. Use the write in option. Sorry.

[Andyman_1970]

Some think the rapture is in the middle of the tribulation period and some don't believe in a literal tribulation period at all.

Or that the tribulation was a historical event in the 1st century.

[HypoTypoSis]

The Tribulation is/will be necessary to bring the Jews back to God and The Messiah.

[HypoTypoSis]

Rapture just being a word used to label when the dead will rise and we will meet him..

Rapture is for the living.

Resurrection is for those ("dead") sleeping in Christ.

[HypoTypoSis]

I


the rapture...it will happen to those who are still living
at the time of the resurrection of the dead
and the triumphant return of Christ.

The resurrection will begin
and then the living will be caught up in the event. Agreed. The rapture and the resurrection are not synonymous terms, one for the "then" living, the other for the sleeping (dead) in Christ.