Upon This Rock

[HypoTypoSis]

Upon This Rock


Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The first thing we need to do is forget everything we've heard with respect to the Catholic view.

Jesus was not speaking of Peter, a movable rock, his denials evidence this; however, in the previous verses we have his confession and that is what Jesus is referring to.

Matthew 16:16-17, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

And the confession is that Jesus is the Immovable Rock, the Cornerstone, itself; thus, we see Jesus was speaking of Himself, and upon that Rock His Church would be built.

The 'gates' is the figure of speech, metonymy of the adjunct, and refers to the power of death. Hell refers to the grave. And 'shall not prevail against it' means death shall have no power (death where is thy sting?) for Jesus, Who is 'the Resurrection and the Life' has conquered death so the grave no longer has any power, or hold, over us.

[arunma]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this passage does refer to the Apostle Peter. Once the fire has been kindled for my execution for heresy, please read R.C. Sproul's commentary on this verse, which I shall reproduce here.

If it had not been for the abuse of this passage by the Roman Catholic Church, it is unlikely that any doubt would have arisen that the reference is to Peter. But the foundational rock is Peter as a representative apostle (v. 15 note) whose confession of Christ has been revealed to him by the Father. As Peter himself later declares (1 Pet. 2:4-8), all believers have become "living stones" by virtue of their association with Christ, with the apostles as the foundation (Eph. 2:20,21; Rev. 21:14). When Peter says that Jesus must not go to the cross, he is not called a foundation rock, but a stumbling block (v. 23 and text note).

Anyway, this more or less describes my opinion on the issue.

[HypoTypoSis]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this passage does refer to the Apostle Peter.
The limb is breaking as since your understanding of physics far outweighs your knowledge of correct and proper grammar usage.

Even the earliest Babylonian religion, that of Nimrod, find they had the greatest influence on, of all the pagan religions, Hinduism. As a result, humanism shines through quite well even today.

[arunma]

Even the earliest Babylonian religion, that of Nimrod, find they had the greatest influence on, of all the pagan religions, Hinduism. As a result, humanism shines through quite well even today.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, here. I'm obviously not a Hindu (or else I wouldn't be here), and I don't see any humanist implications in what I, or rather R.C. Sproul, have said. Perhaps you could elaborate.

[HypoTypoSis]

R.C. Sproul's commentary on this verse, which I shall reproduce here.


Quote:
If it had not been for the abuse of this passage by the Roman Catholic Church, it is unlikely that any doubt would have arisen that the reference is to Peter. But the foundational rock is Peter as a representative apostle (v. 15 note) whose confession of Christ has been revealed to him by the Father. As Peter himself later declares (1 Pet. 2:4-8), all believers have become "living stones" by virtue of their association with Christ, with the apostles as the foundation (Eph. 2:20,21; Rev. 21:14). When Peter says that Jesus must not go to the cross, he is not called a foundation rock, but a stumbling block (v. 23 and text note).
Anyway, this more or less describes my opinion on the issue.

No, sir, that is not your opinion. That, most obviously--and by your own admission--is RC Sprouls' opinion.

Your's, I assume, is, hopefully, still in a state of formulation--and reformulation--for at least the next 25 or so years if not for the full length of your entire life and, subject to countless changes every minute and every day from this moment till the end whether it be of your life or of this old third rock's.

[HypoTypoSis]

The confession is that Jesus is the Immovable Rock, the Cornerstone, itself; thus, we see Jesus was speaking of Himself, and upon that Rock His Church would be built.

The 'gates' is the figure of speech, metonymy of the adjunct, and refers to the power of death. Hell refers to the grave. And 'shall not prevail against it' means death shall have no power (death where is thy sting?) for Jesus, Who is 'the Resurrection and the Life' has conquered death so the grave no longer has any power, or hold, over us.

[arunma]

So...what does all this have to do with Babylon, Nimrod, Hinduism, or humanism?

[HypoTypoSis]

I'm not quite sure what you mean
Nimrod's religion has invaded everything, from our governments to our schools to all of our children to our churches to the teaching of the Gospel.

And, fwiw, Nimrod's religion, which takes in ALL religions, faiths and beliefs (Buddhism, Hinduism, Moslem, Muslim, Wicca, Satan Worshippers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology--ALL) EXCEPT for the Judeo-Christian faith fall into that category.

And, finally and unfortunately, it has invaded, effected, infected and continues to invade and infect our schools and their children, our higher education institutions and our young adults, our adults and their home and work environments and, worst of all, our churches are being watered down by the putrified blasphemy they so carefully sew over time.

Nimrod's Babylonian religion is Satan's own devil spawned religion and since it is the source of all pagan religions is referred to in the bible as "Babylon, The Mother of All Harlots".

I trust this fills your knowledge bucket sufficiently for this night and, since it is OT I shall attempt to bring things back on topic with a repost.

[HypoTypoSis]

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The first thing we need to do is forget everything we've heard with respect to the Catholic view.

Jesus was not speaking of Peter, a movable rock, his denials evidence this; however, in the previous verses we have his confession and that is what Jesus is referring to.

Matthew 16:16-17, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

And the confession is that Jesus is the Immovable Rock, the Cornerstone, itself; thus, we see Jesus was speaking of Himself, and upon that Rock His Church would be built.

The 'gates' is the figure of speech, metonymy of the adjunct, and refers to the power of death. Hell refers to the grave. And 'shall not prevail against it' means death shall have no power (death where is thy sting?) for Jesus, Who is 'the Resurrection and the Life' has conquered death so the grave no longer has any power, or hold, over us.

[arunma]

The limb is breaking as since your understanding of physics far outweighs your knowledge of correct and proper grammar usage. :D You see, you have fallen for the same trap as all other non-Protestants have.

Even the earliest Babylonian religion, that of Nimrod, find they had the greatest influence on, of all the pagan religions, Hinduism. As a result, humanism shines through quite well even today.

Nimrod's religion has invaded everything, from our governments to our schools to all of our children to our churches to the teaching of the Gospel.

And, fwiw, Nimrod's religion, which takes in ALL religions, faiths and beliefs (Buddhism, Hinduism, Moslem, Muslim, Wicca, Satan Worshippers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology--ALL) EXCEPT for the Judeo-Christian faith fall into that category.

And, finally and unfortunately, it has invaded, effected and continues to invade and infect our schools and their children, our higher education institutions and our young adults, our adults and their home and work environments and, worst of all, our churches are being watered down by the putrified blasphemy they so carefully sew over time.

Nimrod's Babylonian religion is Satan's own devil spawned religion and since it is the sourcew of all pagan religions is referred to in the bible as "Babylon, The Mother of All Harlots".

I trust this fills your knowledge bucket sufficiently for this night and, since it is OT I shall attempt to being things back on topic with a repost.

I probably disagree with everything you've said, but respectfully so.

I do wish to comment, however, on your mention of the "Judeo-Christian faith." I do not believe that such a thing exists. To whatever extent that Satan has influenced false religions (if any), he has surely influenced the false religion of Judaism as well. Jesus Christ is the litmus test for the truth of any religion, and Judaism lacks Christ. As such, I do not believe that there is any truth to be found in Judaism.

I would also submit that the Judaism of Jesus' day bears virtually no resemblance to modern Rabbinic Judaism.

[HypoTypoSis]

3 score and 10 is what is initially promised to all. Given even a modicum of that allotment you will, indubitably, alter your still oh so soft opinions--on this as well as many more things to come over time.

Back on track: The passage and thread subject is from Christian, specifically, Protestant and, on target a Baptist point of view I wish to discuss this matter.

Therefore, if you wish to continue emotionally arguing in defense of non-Protestant Catholic favor please do so elsewhere than this thread.

Might I suggest you try the Catholic forum for many of your numerous non-Baptist pro-Catholic defense statements in several of the Baptist forum threads of herelate?

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

So...what does all this have to do with Babylon, Nimrod, Hinduism, or humanism?

I was wondering the same thing. :scratch:

I am not decided on this issue as of now but I'll post some commentaries from people I like to read.

16:18 on this rock. The word for “Peter,” Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with petra which means a foundation boulder (cf. 7:24, 25). Since the NT makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Cor. 3:11) and the head (Eph. 5:23) of the church, it is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Eph. 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. Peter himself explains the imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of “living stones” (1 Pet. 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Christ Himself is the “chief cornerstone” (1 Pet. 2:6, 7). church. Matthew is the only gospel where this term is found (see also 18:17). Christ called it “My church,” emphasizing that He alone is its Architect, Builder, Owner, and Lord. The Gr. (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1) word for church means “called out ones.” While God had since the beginning of redemptive history been gathering the redeemed by grace, the unique church He promised to build began at Pentecost with the coming of the Holy Spirit, by whom the Lord baptized believers into His body—which is the church (see notes on Acts 2:1–4; 1 Cor. 12:12, 13). the gates of Hades. Hades is the place of punishment for the spirits of dead unbelievers. The point of entry for such is death. This, then, is a Jewish phrase referring to death. Even death, the ultimate weapon of Satan (cf. Heb. 2:14, 15), has no power to stop the church. The blood of martyrs, in fact, has sped the growth of the church in size and spiritual power. Gr. (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1)Greek






(l) Christ spoke in the Syrian tongue, and therefore did not use this discourse to distinguish between Petros, which signifies Peter, and Petra, which signifies a rock, but in both places used the word Cephas: but his meaning is what is written in Greek, in which the different word endings distinguish between Peter, who is a piece of the building, and Christ the Petra, that is, the rock and foundation: or else he named him Peter because of the confession of his faith, which is the Church's as well as his, as the old fathers witness, for so says Theophylact. That confession which you have made, shall be the foundation of the believers.

and upon this rock — As “Peter” and “Rock” are one word in the dialect familiarly spoken by our Lord - the Aramaic or Syro-Chaldaic, which was the mother tongue of the country - this exalted play upon the word can be fully seen only in languages which have one word for both. Even in the Greek it is imperfectly represented. In French, as Webster and Wilkinson remark, it is perfect, Pierre - pierre.

And upon this rock ... - This passage has given rise to many different interpretations. Some have supposed that the word “rock” refers to Peter’s confession, and that Jesus meant to say, upon this rock, this truth that thou hast confessed, that I am the Messiah and upon confessions of this from all believers, I will build my church. Confessions like this shall be the test of piety, and in such confessions shall my church stand amid the flames of persecution, the fury of the gates of hell. Others have thought that Jesus referred to himself. Christ is called a rock, Isa_28:16; 1Pe_2:8. And it has been thought that he turned from Peter to himself, and said, “Upon this rock, this truth that I am the Messiah - upon myself as the Messiah, I will build my church.” Both these interpretations, though plausible, seem forced upon the passage to avoid the main difficulty in it. Another interpretation is, that the word “rock” refers to Peter himself.
This is the obvious meaning of the passage; and had it not been that the Church of Rome has abused it, and applied it to what was never intended, no other interpretation would have been sought for. “Thou art a rock. Thou hast shown thyself firm, and suitable for the work of laying the foundation of the church. Upon thee will I build it. Thou shalt be highly honored; thou shalt be first in making known the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.” This was accomplished. See Acts 2:14-36, where he first preached to the Jews, and Acts 10, where he preached the gospel to Cornelius and his neighbors, who were Gentiles. Peter had thus the honor of laying the foundation of the church among the Jews and Gentiles; and this is the plain meaning of this passage. See also Gal_2:9. But Christ did not mean, as the Roman Catholics say he did, to exalt Peter to supreme authority above all the other apostles, or to say that he was the only one upon whom he would rear his church. See Acts 15, where the advice of James, and not that of Peter, was followed. See also Gal_2:11, where Paul withstood Peter to his face, because he was to be blamed - a thing which could not have happened if Christ (as the Roman Catholics say) meant that Peter was absolute and infallible. More than all, it is not said here, or anywhere else in the Bible, that Peter would have infallible successors who would be the vicegerents of Christ and the head of the church. The whole meaning of the passage is this: “I will make you the honored instrument of making known my gospel first to Jews and Gentiles, and I will make you a firm and distinguished preacher in building my church.”

[HypoTypoSis]

Jesus used a play on words here with petra which means a foundation boulder (cf. 7:24, 25). Since the NT makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Cor. 3:11) and the head (Eph. 5:23) of the church,


Jesus is also the Cornerstone.

[HypoTypoSis]

Matthew 16:17, "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

In the following (vs 18) he was renamed from Simon Barjona to Peter (definition: a loose movable rock).

Peter = petros = stone = loose and movable. (Matt 16:18)

"this" rock = "this" is very emphatic (as though pointing to Himself) = (used only 3 times) "this" refers to the speaker = (Matt 16:18, John 2:19, 6:58)

Matthew 16:18, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, [in this vs he is renamed] and [BUT] [signifying a change of subject] upon this rock (ie Jesus, the immovable Cornerstone rock) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."


John 2:19, "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


John 6:58, "This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

In all three instances Jesus is referring to Himself when He says "this".

[Andyman_1970]

I'd like to share some of the contextual background to that passage, I won't dive into the in's and out's of was or wasn't Jesus addressing Peter, but hopefully I can shed a bit of light on the passage.

First, Jesus had taken His disciples to Caesarea Philippi, a Gentile city that was the cult center of Pan worship. There was a cliff on which Pan's temple was built, this was referred to as "the rock". There was also a large fissue/cave in this cliff in which it was thought various spirits from the underworld would come and go, this was referred to as the "gates of Hades", some translations reder it as the "jaws of death", which it was also referred to as.

[HypoTypoSis]

I'd like to share some of the contextual background to that passage, I won't dive into the in's and out's of was or wasn't Jesus addressing Peter, but hopefully I can shed a bit of light on the passage.

First, Jesus had taken His disciples to Caesarea Philippi, a Gentile city that was the cult center of Pan worship. There was a cliff on which Pan's temple was built, this was referred to as "the rock". There was also a large fissue/cave in this cliff in which it was thought various spirits from the underworld would come and go, this was referred to as the "gates of Hades", some translations reder it as the "jaws of death", which it was also referred to as.

Hey, very cool, Andy; I'd like to know more of that backdrop, what are your sources? Cites? Links?

Thanks,
HypoTypoSis

[Andyman_1970]

Hey, very cool, Andy; I'd like to know more of that backdrop, what are your sources? Cites? Links?

Thanks,
HypoTypoSis

Google away, it's pretty common knowledge. I have a few references around the house that discuss it.

Also check out www.followtherabbi.com this is Ray Vanderlaan's website, do a search on "Caesarea Philippi" and "Gates of Hades".

[JPPT1974]

I probably disagree with everything you've said, but respectfully so.

I do wish to comment, however, on your mention of the "Judeo-Christian faith." I do not believe that such a thing exists. To whatever extent that Satan has influenced false religions (if any), he has surely influenced the false religion of Judaism as well. Jesus Christ is the litmus test for the truth of any religion, and Judaism lacks Christ. As such, I do not believe that there is any truth to be found in Judaism.

I would also submit that the Judaism of Jesus' day bears virtually no resemblance to modern Rabbinic Judaism.

While I was in NYC this summer with my church
They ran into a group that calls themselves Jews for Jesus as they recognized Jesus as the Savior & Lord
Thought that was very awesome.

[Ian68]

This matter was settled all the way back in Deuteronomy:

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

I'm pretty sure that Peter's work wasn't perfect, that all his ways weren't judgment, I'm absolutely certain that Peter wasn't a God of truth, and that he wasn't without iniquity.

I'm also curious why the 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible (Catholic) reads thus (note what's missing):

Deu 32:4 The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: God is faithful and without any iniquity, he is just and right.

And if they want to say that Jesus called Peter "the rock", then what do they make of Jesus calling Peter "Satan" just 7 verses later?

[arunma]

While I was in NYC this summer with my church
They ran into a group that calls themselves Jews for Jesus as they recognized Jesus as the Savior & Lord
Thought that was very awesome.

Yes, my opinion of these people is the same. Obviously what I've said about Rabbinic Judaism most certainly doesn't apply to Jews for Jesus.

[BereanTodd]

Hey, very cool, Andy; I'd like to know more of that backdrop, what are your sources? Cites? Links?

Thanks,
HypoTypoSis

I can confirm what he said. I spent several weeks studying in Israel and Jordan earlier this year, and I'm going back this coming summer to lead a tour. I'll attach some photos below of the area. The first one is a shot of the cliffs from further away, the second one will be a shot of the place in the rock where much of their 'pan worship' took place, and the last one is a shot of a part of the city itself.

The city is not all that well preserved, there are many cites that are much better, but it was an interesting and different place nonetheless.

[HypoTypoSis]

I can confirm what he said. I spent several weeks studying in Israel and Jordan earlier this year, and I'm going back this coming summer to lead a tour. I'll attach some photos below of the area. The first one is a shot of the cliffs from further away, the second one will be a shot of the place in the rock where much of their 'pan worship' took place, and the last one is a shot of a part of the city itself.

The city is not all that well preserved, there are many cites that are much better, but it was an interesting and different place nonetheless.

I'm not finding any reputable sources.
Also, askmoses.com never heard of anything like that.
Have you any links to offer?

[BereanTodd]

I'm not finding any reputable sources.
Also, askmoses.com never heard of anything like that.
Have you any links to offer?


If you mean about the cult of Pan that was at Caesarea Phillipi, all I have are what I have been told by archaeologists, professors of mine and tour guides there. Ray Vanderlaan has also talked about it at times, and his website has information about it here here:

http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=1529

[HypoTypoSis]

If you mean about the cult of Pan that was at Caesarea Phillipi, all I have are what I have been told by archaeologists, professors of mine and tour guides there. Ray Vanderlaan has also talked about it at times, and his website has information about it here here:

http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=1529

Thanks! It's much appreciated. :thumbsup:


So much for Mary Martin, Robin Williams and Peter Pan. :eek:

[ghs1994]

Upon This Rock



Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The first thing we need to do is forget everything we've heard with respect to the Catholic view.

Jesus was not speaking of Peter, a movable rock, his denials evidence this; however, in the previous verses we have his confession and that is what Jesus is referring to.

Matthew 16:16-17, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

And the confession is that Jesus is the Immovable Rock, the Cornerstone, itself; thus, we see Jesus was speaking of Himself, and upon that Rock His Church would be built.

The 'gates' is the figure of speech, metonymy of the adjunct, and refers to the power of death. Hell refers to the grave. And 'shall not prevail against it' means death shall have no power (death where is thy sting?) for Jesus, Who is 'the Resurrection and the Life' has conquered death so the grave no longer has any power, or hold, over us.

I don't know if this has been posted or not, but why wouldn't it just be considered that the church began with the speech from Peter on the Day of Pentecost. That he was to be used to usher in this new testament.

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=29339749#post29339749)
Upon This Rock



Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The first thing we need to do is forget everything we've heard with respect to the Catholic view.

Jesus was not speaking of Peter, a movable rock, his denials evidence this; however, in the previous verses we have his confession and that is what Jesus is referring to.

Matthew 16:16-17, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

And the confession is that Jesus is the Immovable Rock, the Cornerstone, itself; thus, we see Jesus was speaking of Himself, and upon that Rock His Church would be built.

The 'gates' is the figure of speech, metonymy of the adjunct, and refers to the power of death. Hell refers to the grave. And 'shall not prevail against it' means death shall have no power (death where is thy sting?) for Jesus, Who is 'the Resurrection and the Life' has conquered death so the grave no longer has any power, or hold, over us.


I don't know if this has been posted or not, but why wouldn't it just be considered that the church began with the speech from Peter on the Day of Pentecost. That he was to be used to usher in this new testament.

Because the thread subject has nothing to do with when the church started (later) but rather what THE ROCK (Jesus) is (beyond being a wrestling actor like Jesse Ventura ;) ) and that "the gates of hell" refers to death, something Jesus conquered.