High Places

[stone]

De 12:2
Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:


Emphasis here on the tree, within the context of being at a high place to be destroyed.


Context of the verse quoted above:

Deuteronomy 12:1-4
1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth. 2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: 3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. 4 Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

Here groves are burned with fire.

grove

A small wood or stand of trees lacking dense undergrowth.
A group of trees planted and cultivated for the production of fruit or nuts: an orange grove.

It is obvious the defined word grove in context is number one above defined. No where in context is there a hint of groves as those used to produce food. Also note the 1st definition reads that the groves of, lets say trees, lack undergrowth, perhaps for engraven images of idols?


Next:

Nu 33:52
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:


Emphasis on the words “pluck down”. What can be plucked down? Maybe a tree?



Next:





Le 26:30
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.


Emphasis on the words, “cut down”. This sounds like those trees that you can cut into shapes. I’ve seen folks cut trees into animal shapes. Were these guys carveing shapes of their gods into trees as well? I betcha some were decorated to honor and gorify their gods images. Casting a carcase of a dead body on the carcase of an image that is cut from a tree would make for a good kindling.


Next:

Nu 21:28
For there is a fire gone out of Heshbon, a flame from the city of Sihon: it hath consumed Ar of Moab, and the lords of the high places of Arnon.

Emphasis on the gods being consumed by fire.



Next:


Jud 5:18
Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.


I have a suspicion here of, if this is a field… what is this high place? From De 12:2 we see that mountains and hills are high places as well as a green tree. Mountains and hills would make this not a field. Maybe a tree?



Next:

1Sa 13:6
When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits.


Here we see that the Israeli’s are hiding. They are hiding in caves, thickets, and in rocks and in high places…? Could be trees?

Next:

1Ki 14:23
For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.



Here it is again, but how do you build a high place under a tree? Perhaps this has something to do with the customs of men, that are not recorded in holy scriptures, that practice of placeing things under a green tree?


Hmmm… just thinking out loud. What ya’ll think?


I could go on, but, I’ve got to fix a few things round here.

[Henaynei]

trees and groves and high places that were used as places or implements of worship of that other than HaShem.... I agree with you but many in Christendom firmly and earnestly believe that they are utilizing these places and items to worship HaShem.....

[stone]

ahh, then i wasn't far off then ey

[HadassahSukkot]

I was about to say that Henaynei.

We have in the greater area of where I live and work and play-- MANY high places, and groves...

In fact, the pagan community here isn't at all shy about it.. but when you bring it up to the believers in the area that aren't more discernment-minded or know about true witch-craft, they play it down.

"Oh, that place in _____?"
"Yes"
"that's just where the sorority group goes for {insert festival here, dedicated to the school and kindred goddess of that school}, that's nothing to worry about -it's just TRADITION!"

Oh hey, and what about that great big idol our "Magic City" (yes that is what it's called) is known for? Oh G-d forbid we tear that down...! (Or should that better read... the gods forbid?)

I can think of several places RIGHT off hand..

Not to mention places where I will be moving. People * still * Go to the black forest to practice witchcraft.

[stone]

:eek: I had no idea!

I would like to know where some of these places are? Are there any popular ones?

[Henaynei]

I'm sure such places abound in college towns and such places.... and are one of the "best known secrets" in town, esp among the youth.....

[HadassahSukkot]

Here's some examples:

Known as the "Magic City" and once big on the Iron Industry...

We have... Vulcan... who watches over our city.. in a high place, on a mountain: http://www.vulcanpark.org/ <-- for your reading pleasure (or displeasure)


We have the temple of Sybil - And no, it's not even disguised!! -in the city named for Vesta/the vestal virgins... Vestavia Hills...! http://www.vestaviahills.net/Sibyl_Restoration/Sibyl_Temple.html <-- see for yourself!

Then you have all the sororities and fraternaties.. which i won't even get into.. are out and out (at least here!) pagan in their practices (the different things they do, not the parties they have)...


At Samford university we have Justice and Mercy... http://www.samford.edu/buildings.html#

(And samford is supposed to be a christian university (http://www.samford.edu/faith.html)!)

The head of Themis in Montgomery in the area around the capitol buildings: http://www.retakingamerica.com/great_amer_ten_pagan_fed_01.html


On January 11, 1861, the Secession Convention passed a resolution designating a flag designed by a group of Montgomery women as their official flag. This flag has often been referred to as the Republic of Alabama Flag. One side of the flag displayed the Goddess of Liberty holding in her right hand an unsheathed sword; in the left a small flag with one star. In an arch above this figure were the words "Independent Now and Forever (http://www.archives.state.al.us/emblems/sessflag.html)." On the other side of the flag was a cotton plant with a coiled rattlesnake. Beneath the cotton plant are the Latin words: "Noli Me Tangere," (http://www.archives.state.al.us/emblems/noliflag.html) (Touch Me Not). This flag was flown until February 10, 1861, when it was removed to the Governor's Office after it was damaged by severe weather. It was never flown again.

There are other places, not a few..

[Athaliamum]

From what I have researched on this is that groves at the time of Torah were used as sites to worship the fertility god - a form of baalism. Many of these groves contained totem-type poles carved from living trees, so they were living statues because the carving would not actually kill the tree. Worshipers would gather in the grove and join in group sexual acts in front of the trees, they would also make fires near the base (obviously not close enough to burn the tree) and pass the fruits of their worship - their babies through the fire. Hence G-d's command not to base children through the fire is connected here. I also believe that this possibly is the reason why one is cursed if they are hung upon a tree.

[HadassahSukkot]

Yep, and that's not all Athaliamum! I won't even begin to get into it (it's really sexually perverse and mentally disturbing)...


Here's more on our "magic city" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham,_Alabama

There's more because the greater area actually encompasses eight counties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham-Hoover-Cullman_Combined_Statistical_Area

[stone]

This is from the sibyl temple link:

A gift of $150 will place an 8”x8” brick.


***

That's for ONE brick! :scratch:

[jgonz]

There is a high place here... it's literally the top of a mountain. Over the years, the Catholic church stepped in and placed a huge crucifix on top of it (but it's still a pagan site). Once a year people will take a pilgrimage (many walking barefoot or on their knees) up to worship at the top of the mountain. I'm sure many don't realize that it's a "high place", but it still is...

[HadassahSukkot]

we got one of those too....


Where I will be moving, the university that Andreas went to had Athena as it's "banner" character, and she was on EVERYTHING from the papers they were graded with, the shirts they had with T.U.D (http://www.tu-darmstadt.de/international/international_affairs/index_affairs.en.tud). on it, yadda yadda...

All over all the universities (and this was a former palace) and all the former palaces of the duchy and counts and contessas, there are idols *everywhere*.

Also, in several cities certain pagan sites were "reclaimed"... (not pagan outright, but lots of syncretism going on in certain areas, rites and rituals)

[chunkofcoal]

De 12:2
Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:


Emphasis here on the tree, within the context of being at a high place to be destroyed.


Context of the verse quoted above:

Deuteronomy 12:1-4
1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth. 2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: 3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. 4 Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

Here groves are burned with fire.

grove

A small wood or stand of trees lacking dense undergrowth.
A group of trees planted and cultivated for the production of fruit or nuts: an orange grove.It is obvious the defined word grove in context is number one above defined. No where in context is there a hint of groves as those used to produce food. Also note the 1st definition reads that the groves of, lets say trees, lack undergrowth, perhaps for engraven images of idols?


.

"Groves" from what I understand, were images of "Asherah", "Astarte", "Ishtar" - a female "goddess" considered the consort of Baal.
I was just looking this up and found an article about Phoenician religion that stated that the male "Baal" images were done in stone and the female "Asherah" images were done in wood.

The pagans associated "Baal" and "Asherah" with fertility, but go back to Genesis and read about El Shaddai and you learn who gives the blessing of children.

Gen 17:1-2 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (2) And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Gen 28:1-3 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. (2) Arise, go to Padan-aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. (3) And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Gen 48:3-4 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me, (4) And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:


There are also the stories of Sarah - who had a child when she was old; and how when God saw that Leah was hated, He opened her womb. Just a couple of examples. :)
And, in Genesis 20:18 it's written that God had shut the wombs of the house of Abimelech.

[stone]

Torah posted this in a post of his and i see it fits right in here:

10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

10:13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

10:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

10:15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

[chunkofcoal]

Now that I've posted what I did regarding the "Baal" and "Asherah" idols being associated with fertility, I'm feeling convicted to confess that when my husband and I got married 13 years ago, we went to Hawaii on our honeymoon and I bought a stone statue of a "fertility goddess" and brought it home with me. It used to sit next to our bed. We eventually mailed the thing back to Hawaii because of a superstition people have regarding taking rocks from Hawaii.

[stone]

I worked for a couple of months in a town named Tula, in Mexico. The hotel i stayed in is call Hotel Sharon. Right up the road from the hotel, probably a mile or so, or a kilometer is a site of the tolteca pyramids.

Most of the time i was there working i had to work 7 - 12's and rarely got a day off. We managed to get ahead of the welders one weekend and got a weekend off. My wife and I went to check out the pyramids. I bought a bunch of souvenirs, as they are called. I bought these things because they looked cool, so i thought at the time.

When it came time for me to go back to Texas my car was still in the shop in some town far from where i was, so i had to bus to Mexico City and fly out from there. This means that my plan to load all this junk i had bought into the trunk of my car i drove with me into Mexico was not gonna work. Fortunately for me, the owner of the hotel, some old drunk man, said i could store all my belongings in one of the hotel storage rooms and i could pick them up later, whenever my car was repaired.

My car was hit head on by an 18 wheeler, but that's another story for another time i guess.

I had mananged to fit the more expensive souvenirs into a suitcase i purchased to fly out with. My wife had left a few days earlier ahead of me. Some of these souveneirs were meant to be gifts to friends and family.

Bad luck followed these souvenirs. I gave one to a good friend of mine. It was called the 3 faces of death, or something like that. It looked scary and cool.

His bad luck came a few days after he hung it on his wall. His girlfriend, who he and her had intentions of marrying, broke up. They were high school sweet hearts and had been together for many many years. One day he comes home from work, finds all his stuff thrown out in the front yard. He goes in the house, and the bedroom door is locked. She tells him to go away. He said he broke the door down and found her in the bed with another woman. That was the end of their relationship.

I had given something to my sister and her husband. He ended up dissappearing for two weekends in a row and went out partying and blew all their money that was to pay bills. He ended up getting thrown in jail for something for a couple years a few days later. She couldn't afford to keep the house, lost it and sufferred for a long time after that.

About 7 months after i flew back into Texas i received a call from the Ford place that had my car. They said it was ready. My company said they would help me with all that stuff, as far as going back there and helping to pay for damaged and all that. I called the company, asked if they were still gonna help and they paid for my plane ticket to Mexico city and gave me a check to pay for half the damages.

I got to the Hotel, asked about all my junk. They gave it to me, includeing the old antique singer sewing machine that i had won in a raffle when i was working at the refinery. I left everything in my room and took a bus to the city where my car was. Paid for it, and drove it back to the hotel. I loaded all that stuff into the trunk of the car.

I began my journey back into Texas, and it was an adventure.

Something comes to mind, that fits right in here that is already typed out, I'll just go and copy and paste it in here:

[stone]

My 1st Angel


I was traveling to Tula to work at the Pemex refinery. Some new reactors were being installed. I was taking some transducers with me that we were going to use to inspect pipe welds and the welds on the reactors.

I guess it was about midnight, actually, i recall it was right at midnight. I was going down an incline on the mountain side. There was a convoy of 18-wheelers going up on my left and a wall of rock on my right. All of a sudden right in front of me there were a set of headlights comeing at me. I had enough time to get two words out... O' s- . lol

I remember jerking the wheel to the right, i guess hitting a wall of rock rather than a big truck was more tempting. The truck hit me. Glass flew all over the place. I remember the sound, it was not very pleasant. The car was skidding down the road, i looked back and saw the red lights from the trucks going over the top and disappear. I remember thinking, that i could not believe no one stopped! I turned back around to look in front of me and the car was skidding to a stop. My body was shaking. I made myself stop shaking, as best i could. My car was totaled. I had just bought it too.

Later, after the federales came, they made their report and all. I had to hitch a ride, and not speaking spanish, made things very difficult. When they guys i got a ride with were driveing off, i saw the federales again about a mile down the road at the scene of another wreck except this one looked much worse than mine. The people in that car were dead. The wreckage was balled up into a little crushed car.

Long story short, i had decided to have my car repaired thinking that it would be much cheaper in Mexico. Boy was i ever wrong, i got ripped off.

Several months later, I had to fly back into Mexico to go and get my car. I took a bus from Mexico City to where my car was.

The next day, while driveing out of the mountains, and this would be between Tampico and the mountain range i decided to give it a little gas, since i was out of the moutainous terrain and had some straight road now i wanted to see how it was driveing. The motor started makeing a clacking sound and looseing power. Eventually, it died and left me literally out in the middle of no where. I could see nothing around, nothing at all. I recalled seeing a little village a couple miles back so i hicked to it.

Once there i began to try and communicate that i needed some water for my car. That wasn't going very well, but they seemed to get some humor out of the fact that some foreigner was walking around out in the middle of nowhere. When i gave a few pesos it seemed to help move the negotiations along well.

I went back to the car, poured the water into the radiator and it started. i was off and down the road. As soon as i got to the next town, it died and i coasted into the 1st gas station. I went up to the clerk and tried to tell him my car was broken and that i would be back as soon as i can get a wrecker. I don't think he understood anything i said, and just said, "sisisi" lol

So i flag down a cab and get taken to a hotel, i get a room, check in, and get something to eat. This was already night tiime. I decided to go out and walk around the town square some. Everything was dead except for one place that had some people going in and out of it and small groups of people standing around outside. I went there and went in, ordered a beer and sat down. There were alot of people in there. It was big and alot of folks were danceing.

After awhile a girl came to me and started saying a whole bunch of stuff and i couldn't make any of it out. I just looked at her and smiled. lol I tried talking to her, but she just kinda smiled back and walked away. She soon returned, with what i guess would have been a group of her friends, and they all started talking to me! Jeez! i couldn't understand any of them. They just all started hanging out around me and motioning for me to go with them, so i did.

Later, i left, outside we all went. One of the girls was motioning for me to go into the back of a truck. It had a camper shell on it. I then looked into her hair and saw what looked like cob webs? and a spider! I said, no, i'm gonna go to bed and walked off, i went back to my room and went to bed. I guess my instincts kicked in or something?

The next morning, i woke up, sat up in bed. I started thinking, o great, what am i going to do now. I just spent thousands of dollars getting a car back that broke down on me on the side of the road and i'm stuck here in Mexico!

I saw something moveing up in the top right corner of the room. I looked and saw a woman standing, looking at me. She looked like a nun to me. Her head was covered with whatever you call that thing they wear. I could see her clear, except she looked so clean and the white cloth was so white. She raised her hands together to her mouth, kissed them, then threw them out towards me. A white dove flew out from her hands towards me. I watched it fly towards me, past me towards the window. I looked back to see her, and she was gone, i looked back to see the dove and it was gone. The dove had flown towards the window, so when i looked back to see the dove, all i could see out of my hotel window was an enormous beautiful catholic church. The feeling i got then was unlike anything i have ever felt before. I had never felt so at peace in all my life. It is a feeling of pure good, there was no fear, not a drop. It is just amazeing!

this was many years ago. i never really understood any of this till recently. I was in my room getting ready for work and i heard a voice tell me that i must believe the word of Jesus. I looked around and didn't see anyone. I kinda figured it was an angel, since i had been haveing lots of dreams at that time of me and angels hunting demons. They would show me where they are and i would attack them and send them back to wherever they come from. lol

So this is what has gotten me to read the bible so intensely on a daily basis now. I've learned alot from the bible that explains alot of these experiences i have had.

edit 7-28 *** today, i know why i never found the dove in the curtains, well... i've known for sometime now, just figured this is a good place to insert this bit of info, I found it right here inside of me.

[stone]

I was going to leave out the angel part, but its already typed out and saves me time right now.

I had also visited one while i was working at Pemex the temple of the sun and the temple of the moon. Those are the Aztec pyramids and i bought some "souvenirs" from those places too.

The man that i was introduced to the next day showed up in the morning to go and pull my car to his shop. His wrecker truck, that i had to draw on paper to get them to understand what i was asking for at the counter, was an old rusty beat up pick up truck and a rope.

I took him to my car, and just as soon as we pulled it out onto the street, a police man pulled us over for illegally pulling a vehicle!

He wanted to take my car and impound it! After i had just gotten it fixed, and well... it just broke again. I ended up paying the guy cash on the spot to cover the fine.

We got back to his shop, i got his phone number and he drove me back to my room. I took a bus to Matamorris and then took a cab to the border in Brownsville. What a relief to of gotten back to the states. Most folks have no idea what that means. Too many things are taken for granted.

The guy calls me and gives me a list of things that he needs to do the repairs, that are of course is not available in Mexico. So, there i go again, this time with a big box under my shoulder and a head gasket kit and all that. Later i found out that i wasn't suppose to take auto parts, like a radiator across the border without paying a tax or something like that.. oh well.

My brother n law went back with me to get the car. They repaired it rather quickly. WE started the drive back. In Mexico, as you drive from state to state there are military check points on the roads. Folks searching for weapons and drugs i guess.

One guard that looked into my trunk spoke in spanish to my brother n law, i later asked what were they talking about while they were looking in my trunk. He said all that stuff you have in the back of your trunk is mostly used for witch craft. I just thought, yea, whatever.

So about 12 am, its his turn to drive or for us to stop and take a break. He says he wants to drive. We drive, i go to sleep and the next thing i know, is that i wake up becaus something just doesn't feel right. When i open my eyes all i see are the tops of tree branches whipping past the car and hitting the windshied. No road! There was a hard Bam! I opened the door to step out, my brother n law is freaking out, and i fall out of the car. I stop and slide in sand and i'm looking eye level into the floor board of the car.

the story goes on, but i got rid of everything that i purchased as a souvenir that was mine and from everyone that i had given one to as a gift.

Some day i'll put all this into a book.

[stone]

I think that what i've learned about those items, from my time studying scripture, is that they are cursed by the l-rd.

[chunkofcoal]

Thank you stone for sharing your story. Instead of condemnation (which I was worried about) you say "been there, done that". I appreciate that. Maybe someone else can learn from what we've shared, too.

[HadassahSukkot]

I've had my share of freaky spiritual action associated to high places and idolatry, but I don't feel like now is the right time to share it...

I agree with what ya'll have said though. :)

[Victrixa]

Thank you stone for sharing your stories. :)

[stone]

Beginning with the summer solstice came a time of mourning in the Ancient Near East as in the Aegean: the Babylonians marked the decline in daylight hours and the onset of killing summer heat and drought with a six-day "funeral" for the god, which was observed even at the very door of the Temple in Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem), to the horror of the reformer Ezekiel:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Then said he unto to me, 'Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these."
— Ezekiel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel) 8.14-15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz

[stone]

bump

[HadassahSukkot]

zombie thread.... :P

[visionary]

Old buildings in the forests are favorite haunts for those involved in witchcraft and satanism.

[stone]

This here is what got my attention about christmas trees:

10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

[stone]

Also sounds like a totem pole.

[debi b]

Curious about [OPEN] in the thread title. Did I miss an announcement somewhere?

[stone]

Curious about [OPEN] in the thread title. Did I miss an announcement somewhere?


You'll notice that this thread was started over a year ago. Then non-trinitarian Messianics were only allowed to post in threads that contained the [open] tag in the op title. That is no longer the case. Guess i'll go ahead and remove the tag.

[visionary]

IT is an old thread resurrected.

[debi b]

:doh: I should have looked more carefully ^_^ I told myself I would just pop in for a minute - things to do and all that!