Since God said....

[SpiritPsalmist]

"You shall utterly destroy and all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high You shall not worship the LORD your God with such things",

How would you answer the reasoning given below when the scripture above was used to show that God does care about whether we mix pagan stuff with His name.

then why are hebrew months named after babylonian gods? Why do Israeli place names ascociated with God, include the name Baal?

Why do the apostles repeatedly use the name Jesus, and Cephas, knowing that the "S" ending in transliterated greek was a systematic addition to foreign names, in honor of Zeus?

Why did God take pre-existing feasts and celebrations, and turn them into his proclaimed feasts for Israel?

there is a BIG distinction between making use of a name, or even a tradition.. and worshiping a false god, or honoring a false god.

I believe this relates directly to what God revealed to Peter, do not call what God has made, unclean. As long as a practice is not inherently immoral (as many of the pagan practices were, like sex magic, and sexual worship, human sacrifices etc), It doesn't seem that God hesitates much to take it and make it his.

[visionary]

As it is with all things of God, satan is right behind messing with it and perverting it into something God never intended. Then satan claims he started it and God copied.

[Andyman_1970]

Add to that "list", the model of the Jews encamped around the Tabernacle is very similar to the emcampment the Egyptians would use when the Pharoah was traveling with his army, his tent would be surrounded by the rest of the tents of his army.

[SpiritPsalmist]

So what are your thoughts regarding the quote? Did God give the Hebrew months names that were of other gods names? Did Jesus and the Apostles give honor to Zeus? Did God make feasts from the feasts of other gods and have the Israelites change them?

[Andyman_1970]

Before I comment on your question, I'll also add that the phrases "Jesus is LORD" and "there is no other Name under Heaven by which a man can be saved except that of Jesus" are not orginal to the Apostles. Those were existing statements about Caesar, the Apostles used "Jesus" in place of "Caesar".

I would argue that God does not enter into history floating down out of Heaven in a bubble, but interacts with existing elements using them for His glory and honor. Jesus is a perfect example of this. Many strains of Christianity that are not aware of the historical context of His existence don't realize He was a Jewish rabbi, and that He interacted with and in 1st century 2nd Temple Judaism............He didn't operate outside of it. Not to mention few of His teachings are totally unique but twists of existing rabbinic teachings and parables.

Anyway..........that's my take on it.

[HadassahSukkot]

http://graftedin.com/torahtalk/Lekh_Lkha1.mp3
http://graftedin.com/torahtalk/Lekh_Lkha2.mp3

Maybe this should help some :)

[plum]

I'm wondering which feasts this person is talking about and how they explain G-d taking pagan feasts and "making them Israel's" or whatnot...
it'd be easier to reply if they had given more historical facts or examples.

anywho, what i'd say out of a gut reaction is this:
Who says the pagan nations came before G-d? Who says G-d did not create the seasons (which were, in my observation, the basis of most festivals) and make them so full of splendor as to inspire the nations to worship Him? But apparently, they did not and HaSatan perverted what was already good (seasons and honoring the Creator) and turned them into paganized, idolized festivals (as we see throughout history)

just wondering how G-d could ever take someone else's idea as His own and He is before all, knows all, created all, and gives even the pagans their very breaths. Just wondering why someone would ever think of G-d in such a human way...

[Andyman_1970]

Interesting.

Maybe those pagan ideas were wired in them by God from the begining, in effect they are using God's idea for say a feast calendar that eventually God tell Moses. The whole Romans 2:14 comes to mind, where Paul speaks about those who don't know Torah sometimes do and say things in line with the Torah, essentially because God wired them that way from the begining.

Anyway, just a thought.

[stone]

sounds like lies to me.

However, if this is directed towards christianity in general, then there would be some truth to part of the question stated.

christmas, december 25th is rooted into paganism, as we all know, and easter and halloween, then theres others not celebrated much any more like may day and such.

[stone]

I looked up names of pagan gods here:

http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/gg/bl_ggaz.htm


and none are named after hebrew months.

[Wags]

Did not the Most High teach Adam how to live? Did he not teach Noah how to live. I would imagine that Torah has been around since the very begining of time. And as always man has taken and preverted it to his own uses (with the help and prompting of HaSatan).

A couple of things in the quote jumped out at me:


The apostles didn't go around calling Yeshua "Jesus" so they wouldn't have been honoring Zeus.
Ba'al is a term for master, as in Ba'al Shem Tov (Master of the Good Name) While is is a name for a god, that is certainly not the only use of the word.
Talk about taking Peter's vision out of context! According to Peter himself, his vision was about accepting gentile believers as equals.

[Sephania]

How would you answer the reasoning given below when the scripture above was used to show that God does care about whether we mix pagan stuff with His name.


then why are hebrew months named after babylonian gods? Why do Israeli place names ascociated with God, include the name Baal?



Cause they didn't listen and look what happened to them for thousands of years!

To the Jew first, and then the gentile, so watch your step!
:)

[Sephania]

I looked up names of pagan gods here:

http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/gg/bl_ggaz.htm


and none are named after hebrew months.
You have that backwards stone, and that is not a complete list.
Any way in answer to the month question, the L-RD named the months, read about it iin the bible, it's all in there.

the First month - which falls somewhere between our roman March and April- month of Passover

Which is followed by the

Second month - when the great flood began
Third month - Shavuot, and the giving of the Commandments at the moutain
Fourth month - Many places mention a famine happening in this month
Fifth month- on the first day of this month Aaron died
sixth month - in the sixth year in the sixth month on the fifth day - the L-RD appeared to Ezekiel
seventh month- You Teruah, Yom Kippur, and of course followed by Sukkot!
eighth month- The L-RD came to Zechariah ( also the kingdom of Israel falsly celebrated Sukkot in this month)
ninth month- Foundation of the rebuild temple was laid
tenth month - first time land appeared after the flood- Nebuchanezzer came up against Jerusalem and captivity began
eleventh month - Moses great speech given in his final days, in the 40th year
twelveth month - month when all Jews were to be destroyed starting in Shushan - Book of Esther


Also the priests are organized by the month, numerically, first month, second month, etc

The 'names' came from the Babylonian captivity. Some are even mentioned in the,Bible,

Ziv, Bul, Tammuz



Not awake yet, hope that made sense. :yawn:

[SpiritPsalmist]

You have that backwards stone, and that is not a complete list.
Any way in answer to the month question, the L-RD named the months, read about it iin the bible, it's all in there.

the First month - which falls somewhere between our roman March and April- month of Passover

Which is followed by the

Second month - when the great flood began
Third month - Shavuot, and the giving of the Commandments at the moutain
Fourth month - Many places mention a famine happening in this month
Fifth month- on the first day of this month Aaron died
sixth month - in the sixth year in the sixth month on the fifth day - the L-RD appeared to Ezekiel
seventh month- You Teruah, Yom Kippur, and of course followed by Sukkot!
eighth month- The L-RD came to Zechariah ( also the kingdom of Israel falsly celebrated Sukkot in this month)
ninth month- Foundation of the rebuild temple was laid
tenth month - first time land appeared after the flood- Nebuchanezzer came up against Jerusalem and captivity began
eleventh month - Moses great speech given in his final days, in the 40th year
twelveth month - month when all Jews were to be destroyed starting in Shushan - Book of Esther


Also the priests are organized by the month, numerically, first month, second month, etc

The 'names' came from the Babylonian captivity. Some are even mentioned in the,Bible,

Ziv, Bul, Tammuz



Not awake yet, hope that made sense. :yawn:
So the Lord gave the names of the months and pagans named god's after the months???

[stone]

so then, kislev is the name of a pagan god?

[SpiritPsalmist]

Kislev (http://www.inner.org/times/kislev/kislev.htm)

The name Kislev derives from the Hebrew word for "security" and "trust." There are two states of trust, one active and one passive, both of which are manifest in the month of Kislev (see Bitachon, confidence). The miracle of Chanukah reflects the active trust of the Chashmonaim (Maacabim) to stand up and fight against the Hellenistic empire (and its culture). Kislev's sense of sleep reflects the passive trust that G-d's providence always guards over Israel..

[jgonz]

Did not the Most High teach Adam how to live? Did he not teach Noah how to live. I would imagine that Torah has been around since the very begining of time. And as always man has taken and preverted it to his own uses (with the help and prompting of HaSatan).

This is the line of thought I was in too, Wags. Just like Noah knew which animals were considered clean and unclean, I would imagine that Adam did too. Same with the Feast times and G-d's calendar. Moses was the one who actually wrote it all down.

[Sephania]

so then, kislev is the name of a pagan god?NO, I didn't say they were all babylonian g/ds, but of Babyilonian origin. When a name other than a numberical one for a month is used it is from after the Captivity that this word for the month came from.

Remember all religion began in Babylon, true faith came when HaShem took Abram out of there and he went, by faith.




From the Orthodox Union


The Month of Kislev (http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/kislev/default.htm)
The name "Kislev" is of Babylonian origin.
In the Tanach (Bible), Kislev is referred to as the ninth month, as it is the ninth month after Nissan.


:)

[SpiritPsalmist]

I don't see it being of Babalonian origin an issue. However, the person I quoted said it was names of Babalonian god's. So they would be wrong...correct???

[Sephania]

then why are hebrew months named after babylonian gods?


A better way to say this would be that the months of the year were given names while in Babylonian captivity, before that they were only numberical. There is only one month in the bible given a name by G-d and that is the first month, called Aviv- which many interpret as meaning green barley, for this is when Passover and First Fruits can happen , when the Barley is green. Other than that the other names came from being in Babylon, but not necessarily name for their g/ds , although there are a few like Tammuz, (http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/tammuz/default.htm#name) who also appears in the Bible.

Pre Exile names are - Aviv, Ziv,Ethanim, and Bul

The meanings respectfully are Barley, Light,, strong ,and 'eighth'

They are considered Caananite /Phoenecian The rest came after exile.

[Sephania]

The names

1. Nisan - Sumerian origin meaning 'first fruits'
2. Iyar ( called Ziv) - from Hebrew, possibly meaning blossom
3rd. Sivan - Hebrew meaning season or time
4th - Tammuz- adopted from Babylonian calendar - honor of god tammuz
5th - Av - Babylonian origin
6th - Elul - origin Akkadian- probably meaning to become pure- holy - possilby in preparation of Yom Kippur the following month
7th - Tishrei - Origin akkadian meaning beginning
8th - Chesvan - Akkadian meaning 'eighth'
9th - kislev- Akkadian origin
10th - Tevet - akkadian origin
11th - Shevat - Akkadian
12th - Adar - Akkadian origin

[visionary]

:thumbsup: great post Zayit

[stone]

thanks for the info! :thumbsup: