Messianic and Catholic???

[Catholic Wife]

Although I love my Catholic faith and don't plan to leave it any time soon, I still feel strangely drawn to Judaism. Am I crazy???
Could I be both Catholic and Messianic at the same time? :confused:

[Ivy]

Well, since Christianity has its roots in Judaism, I think it's very natural to be interested.

[Wags]

I've never come across anyone claiming to be both messianic and catholic. The main beliefs are so very different.

[P_G]

The concept of a Latin Rite Messianic are staggering!

Come and learn what you can and perhaps what you think may change or perhaps it will solidify what you already believe.

So it couldn't hurt!

PG

[Catholic Wife]

I've never come across anyone claiming to be both messianic and catholic. The main beliefs are so very different. How are they so different? I've asked this question in this forum before and didn't get an actual answer. I occasionally work with a man who is a Messianic Jew. Based on what I've learned from him, I thought got the feeling that we aren't all that far apart in our beliefs and customs (closer than either of are to Protestants/non-denominational Christians).

[Ivy]

Catholicism tends towards replacement theology which is not compatible at all with Messianic Judaism. If you are really interested though I suggest strongly that you read Israeology by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

It's very true that replacement theology is not compatible with Messianic Judaism--but didn't the Catholic Church officially renounce replacement theology?

[Ivy]

Yes, RCC wasn't very kind at all to the Jewish people.

I read in an issue of Jewish Voice (Jonathan Bernis) a list of major denominations and their stance on replacement theology, and RCC was one that officially didn't subscribe to it, at least not now. I'm sure they did subscribe to it in the not too recent past.

But I imagine it will take quite some time for attidunal changes to trickle down to the ordinary people.......and even longer for the wounds sustained by the Jewish people to heal.

[HadassahSukkot]

I have a friend from Puerto Rico who I met at schul. He is Sephardi, had an orthodox wife and practices his Judaism within the MJ movement.

He's been in and out of the area and scarce at schul but we keep in contact.. and somehow he made it work. For a while he was going to EWTN's chapel in this area... (the one that is on their channel) - as well as attending schul.

I'm not 100% on all the details, and I believe there have been some changes... but somehow he makes it work.

[Sephania]

PerkyCurlz, is it possible you have Jewish blood? How long has your familyl been in the RCC? Many generations?

:)

[zhilan]

I think I asked this question before too. I know generally MJ has a Protestant-Christian theology, but I don't know why it needs to be -exclusively- that. Look, for example, at the Ethiopian Orthodox. If they can follow much of the OT laws what makes them different from a MJ except that they follow the law out of their traditions and MJs follow it out of theirs. But if the principle behind MJ is Torah observance, why does observing the Torah as a Catholic or Orthodox or other liturigical Christian rule you out?

[Sephania]

Just a friendly reminder, our guest Perky Curlz ( what a cute name! ) has asked a question in fellowship, let us answer in kind.

No debating is allowed here please and any other icon you may ask a question for claryfication but please do not answer for the MJ's.

Todah!

[Catholic Wife]

PerkyCurlz, is it possible you have Jewish blood? How long has your familyl been in the RCC? Many generations?

:) My family isn't Catholic, they're all Protestant of one sort or another. I'm not sure I have any Jewish blood. We've traced our heritage back to Germany (to 1800 or so) and England and Ireland (to 1750 or so) so far.

[HadassahSukkot]

I talked with the friend I spoke of last night after I had posted.

he said he has moved out of the church completely as well as the same for protestant groups and would rather be in an orthodox observant shul - either MJ or traditional Judaism.

I understand that sometimes he still will say certain prayers and the like, but he said he cannot reconcile the doctrines and traditions with Torah... and this from a lifelong Catholic.



I grew up for a while in Catholic territory and learned the doctrine and also agree, but did not say anything to him about his choices as he was making them unless he asked.

My faince was raised Catholic and is Jewish.. after confirmation he quit going. He didn't agree with what he was taught. He continued religious schooling but didn't actually find salvation until about 6 years ago when he was fully exposed to Torah. He was not taught the sacrifices, what they are for, how they were meted out, nor why Y'shua had to come and die other than "for the sins of the world" (sounds good, but where's the substance if you aren't taught about sacrifices?) - He has told me he would prefer to go Orthodox or Conservative if there is no Messianic group near where we will be, rather than go back where he was or where I was, since our theology and halacha do not agree with either really.

Now some folks would say "they weren't really catholic to begin with" - but honestly, they were, and that is how my fiance would answer if someone asked him until the last couple of years... and that is how my friend answered until recently.


I've seen a ton of different syles within the movement, but i can't see how it is cohesive myself, but some people "work it" for a while.

[P_G]

Actually I can see where a move from Catholicism to MJ might be simple thing on a conceptual level.

We are both groups that hold to very long held tradition, both are considered legalists by outside parties, both are considered "faith by works" by outside parties (those outside parties are wrong btw) We both can be very strong in liturgy or at least more so than say a Charismatic or Pentecostal church.

Where we start to separate is in the realm of theology.

Messianic are primarily Torah observant or working towards Torah observance. So the first problem you have when you go from ANY western church to being Messianic is an observance of a Saturday Shabbat which you not only worship but also do not work on.

For a Catholic I think that the next very difficult place is Christmas and Easter. Now both of these are high holy days in the Catholic church and if I am not mistaken you are REQUIRED to observe them and to attend Mass on both those days. Messianic not only do not make a fuss about these two days most do not observe them at all and many are outright antagonistic about the days pointing to questionable origins of both days.

You might think dietary laws are a difficult hurdle but Catholics already are accustomed to not eating some things on some days so not eating some other things on every day is not too big a jump. Its a good news bad news thing

Good news is you can eat meat on Fridays during lent
Bad news is pork chops are off the menu (though I don't think that is really "bad" news)

So there is some cliff notes for you like anyother journey it starts with the first step! May Y'shua be the lamp unto your feet that you might not stumble.

[zhilan]

Hey, I just wanted to say if my response came off as trying to answer for MJs I'm sorry. I wrote it at like 2 am, so it might not of come off as I meant, I was trying to sort of ask the same thing and looking for responses.

[Ivy]

For a Catholic I think that the next very difficult place is Christmas and Easter. Now both of these are high holy days in the Catholic church and if I am not mistaken you are REQUIRED to observe them and to attend Mass on both those days. Messianic not only do not make a fuss about these two days most do not observe them at all and many are outright antagonistic about the days pointing to questionable origins of both days.



Are there any plans in Messianic circles to develop celebrations for the birth & resurrection of Yeshua......such as with more Jewish expressions & closer to the appropriate historical dates?

It sometimes seems to me that this would be a good idea....MJ's of course love Yeshua the Messiah, but the traditional Christian expressions around these major events aren't consistent with Jewish identity. Of course, it isn't commanded anywhere to celebrate these occasions, but yet they are joyful events :clap: that maybe the heart needs an outlet for. To be honest, I miss celebrating the birth & resurrection of Yeshua in some way :-(

Anyway, I'm getting off the subject :blush: ....so sorry. :sorry:

[HadassahSukkot]

Um....

Sukkot/ (http://biblicalholidays.com/tabernacles.htm)Feast of Tabernacles

and...

Pesach (Passover) (http://biblicalholidays.com/passover.htm) / Unleavened Bread (http://biblicalholidays.com/unleavened_bread.htm) & Firstfruits (http://biblicalholidays.com/firstfruits.htm)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/clap-cheer/cheer3.gif


Though, they aren't celebrated like the other two holidays... they have clear pointers to the seasons in which He Filled them full of meaning. :)

You might also want to check out Firstfruits of Zion's (http://ffoz.org/)website & materials

[Ivy]

Righteo, I know about the dates. What I meant was developing an additional & more specific focus & expression on the Yeshua-events that happened at those times. Even in traditional Judaism, traditions are sometimes changed or enhanced, so far as I can tell.

No one can be two places at once, and I love all the Feasts or I wouldn't be choosing them, when time doesn't permit both, over the things I grew up with. It's just a bit of lonesomeness, I guess.

[Wags]

When MJ"s celebrate Passover we do so recognizing that it was "the last supper" and make mention of the things Yeshua did and said during that time. We recognize the significance behind what he did and said that usually gets glossed over or not mentioned at in chritian circles.

At sukkot we mention - but do not make a big deal of his birth - after all he only commanded us to remember his death, and there is no command to remember his birth. I'm sure if the Most High had wanted the birthday of Messiah celebrated there would be a command to do so. The Holy One does tend to be really specific with his creations on what he wants them to do. :)

[Ivy]

Yes, usually there's a little blurb in our seder during the Cup of Redemption, and a bit more at the afikommen juncture....and one year, we did the cute & eccentric thing of singing "Silent Night" after putting up the sukkah (it was high noon), which confirmed for all time that we are weird :D

[Ivy]

Aren't there some instances of Jewish traditions that weren't specifically prescribed by God? Do you feel God gives a little leeway, within the basic Torah framework, for creative expression?

BTW probably 98% of people in Messianic congregations like things just the way they are as per celebrating Yeshua.

[plum]

Aren't there some instances of Jewish traditions that weren't specifically prescribed by God? Do you feel God gives a little leeway, within the basic Torah framework, for creative expression?

BTW probably 98% of people in Messianic congregations like things just the way they are as per celebrating Yeshua.
well, sure. what's Hanukkah anyway? Or Purim? These are amazing days in history and we celebrate them as such. As far as we know, they were never commanded by Hashem.

So celebrating his birth, to me, is celebrating a great day in History--one of the very greatest! think about it... why not celebrate and rejoice in the bodily presence of G-d on earth? Why not rejoice in the day the Messiah was born? shoot, we celebrate Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday in this country... and he isn't even our True King!

I think the incarnation of G-d is superbly important and it is often, as I've seen, ignored by Messianics or written off.

[P_G]

Are there any plans in Messianic circles to develop celebrations for the birth & resurrection of Yeshua......such as with more Jewish expressions & closer to the appropriate historical dates?

It sometimes seems to me that this would be a good idea....MJ's of course love Yeshua the Messiah, but the traditional Christian expressions around these major events aren't consistent with Jewish identity. Of course, it isn't commanded anywhere to celebrate these occasions, but yet they are joyful events :clap: that maybe the heart needs an outlet for. To be honest, I miss celebrating the birth & resurrection of Yeshua in some way :-(

Anyway, I'm getting off the subject :blush: ....so sorry. :sorry:
When I do our Seder I very much focus in on the death and resurrection of Y'shua as well as the prophetic fulfillment of it. So yeah if your group is not recognizing the resurrection properly in the Seder then you need to look at using different service for it.

PG

[Ivy]

What hagaddah is good for this, do you think?

[stone]

I'm planning to save back a little $ for dec, 26th and buy one of the nativity scene things marked down, for Sukkot next year. :thumbsup:

[P_G]

I'm planning to save back a little $ for dec, 26th and buy one of the nativity scene things marked down, for Sukkot next year.

Make sure you get one of the good ones that has the wise men in the manger right next to Santa and the baby Frosty

/me wedging his toungue firmly into his cheek walks out

[plum]

P_G you so silly ;)

you forgot the angel on the top of the stable roof and the little baby Jesus lying in a feeding trough.

[P_G]

See now the way I heard the story Santa goes on the roof

"Up on the roof top click click click"

and we always put Frosty out outside the manger protecting all the good girls and boys from the wicked Grinch

PG (Currently sitting in Bethlehem a stones throw from Nazareth)

[Ivy]

See now the way I heard the story Santa goes on the roof



Until his portly self crashes through the sukkach. ^_^

[Sephania]

alvin, Alvin, ALVIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKK ( in my best Alvin voice;) remember him? The chipmunks?)

Closing for review