Eph. 2.15 - Why do You Still Try to Keep the Law?

[Servchurch]

"By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles. His purpose was to make peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new person from the two groups" (Eph. 2.15)

Why do some people reject God's Word and still try to keep the law such as trying to keep the Sabbath? For example why does the RC make the Lord's day a Christian Sabbath when there is no more Sabbath?

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

My short answer to Why is ....it works.

A person who in full knowledge of Gal, and supports Grace as the means of Salvation whereby G-d so provided an opoortunity to us to have a relationship with us by allowing us to accept HIS way of Taking care of us and so provided for us a means to escape HIS judgement on us after telling us what he requires of us so we would know what it would be like to have us as his friends and not reject us and be in commnication and relationship with us....

Weeeellll

If I put on a robe and Walk in a Monastery do I look at home or at odds with the people there?

If I shave my head and wear a toga so to speak and move to Tibet will I look odd or "fit in"

If I wear a Suit and Tie and go to a Church on a Sunday Morning and Sit in a Pew will that make me fit in?

In other words, we are free to choose how we express ourselves to G-d and if your path....your way....your method....your group....really really really really gets you Close to G-d so mcuh so you can say you hear his voice and you know His S-n and frankly you are on fire and completely confident on where and what you are and beleive in.........

Maybe you know why we are who we are.

Maybe.

Others will answer you according to religion and if you honor interpretation you have to honor your own faith and theirs....

I can answer that way.

But mine to you was not that.

It's about Knowing G-d and He Knowing me so well, so intimate, so tender and so real tht He knows Exactly what I need and what you need and if you are so too blessed as I am...

You Have All You Need.

In Y'shua, I can say we are all learning, but as to religion it is easy to argue and never learn.

Alecheim Shalom

Eben Abram

[Servchurch]

It doesn't work, for God says not to do it because obviously it doesn't work. He would not say not to do something because it works to do it, but because it doesn't work to do it. So that is why God said if you live by the law, you will die by the law unsaved.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

Apparently you missed the point of the post but thank you for your concern for my salvation.....it is assured. Thank you for you POV.

What you missed for reasons you might not want to discuss here but seek in Prayer with G-d himself is.....How is YOUR relationship with Jesus today?

You see, you can assume alot my misreading, but you can't deny a relationship if you have one. A relationship is not a Belief in a dogma doctrine Law or grace, a relationship is the Cause and Effect of an action and IF you read my words you would know not only do I have a relationship with Messiah, I am quite content to debate religion which can be a waste of your time because what you will learn as you get older in the L-rd is you go to the people who need a physician with a cure not the ones who are healthy, joyful, at peace with G-d and at peace with the brethren and still don't look like a cookie cutter or a Blintz.

You see my friend your enthusiasm is great but you expect something you did not find, you found someone who promoted grace and said a Lifestlye choice was acceptable....

Now just for you.....

Call me the Newbie

Pretend I do not have a wealth of knowledge.
Act like lets say those Paul wrote to who were Weaker in Faith

You know, the ones who "Neeeded" to not eat meat sacrificed to idols or wo kept Holy Days and Paul said What?

Since you are more mature.......allow the Weaker one fro conscience sake.

You see friend, you could have left with if the Person knows G-d G-d will teach them but now you have the Scripture that mandates you to allow the weaker in faith and the more mature to not fight in the sandbox but to get along and if you have freedom to go do as you have done and not need a roadsign or a symbol or a guide then .....
COOL

Go and Do as G-d lead you.

But if we who are weaker need reinforcement to remember and see Messiah in all we do and we love to sing and Celebrate and enjoy Him as he is and as we relate to Him.

May I see you come up with a scripture repudiating our weakness in faith and conscience since I already started by saying....

We are fullly persuaded,,,,AND we already "are" saved.

(smile)

You have good intentions, wrong person.

Alecheim Shalom in yshua ha meshiach the one and only true G-d who is ha ben, the S-n of G-d.

[Servchurch]

You totally missed my point which precedes your point. Could you respond to it directly. Thanks.

In Matt. 24.20 God said to violate the law. To walk more than 4854 feet (see Acts 1.12). This shows that not only does God say to abolish the law, but he says to show it too.

[Sephania]

Reminder :
Only those with a Torah scroll icon ( MJ) are allowed to debate in this forum. Other icons may ask respectful questions and make fellowship posts only.

Thank You

Zayit
MJ Supervisor

[Servchurch]

Make note my point is not to debate.

[Servchurch]

Pray4Israel,

You are sinning with your false accusation. I forgive you. Jesus said don't keep the law, so your hostility ultimately is directed at Him, not me. Your tone makes that clear.

[Servchurch]

Lots of people like to put themselves under the law, so they will die by the law unsaved. I always find it amazing how the Word clearly says don't keep the law, it is abolished, then people try to keep the law. It shows they are not in Christ.

[insaneinthebrain]

You totally missed my point which precedes your point. Could you respond to it directly. Thanks.

In Matt. 24.20 God said to violate the law. To walk more than 4854 feet (see Acts 1.12). This shows that not only does God say to abolish the law, but he says to show it too.
Matthew 24:20
But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

You are reading a LOT into that verse.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

You asked a question not make a point, I answered it, you are avoiding a relationship with G-d are you not?

Thats ok too.

You see, alot of people have a Zeal for religion and I see by what you have posted on the CF forum and the nature of all your posts that you like debate and not to be challenged if it comes to close to home when asked about relationship.

Thats ok.

Here is my point to you

WHO gave the Law.

The Lawgiver or Moses?

Careful....you might be leading yourself into a relationship issue with the Living G-d and His S-n.

Now as to your second point and you Claim it supports Breaking a Law so if we see you are wrong then I would have to conclude you do not study your position but insist others accept your style of reason without testing it.

Lets test it.

20 But (http://www.christianforums.com/1161) pray ye (http://www.christianforums.com/4336) that (http://www.christianforums.com/3363) your (http://www.christianforums.com/5216) flight (http://www.christianforums.com/5437) be (http://www.christianforums.com/1096) not (http://www.christianforums.com/3363) in the winter, (http://www.christianforums.com/5494) neither (http://www.christianforums.com/3366) on (http://www.christianforums.com/1722) the sabbath day: (http://www.christianforums.com/4521) 21 For (http://www.christianforums.com/1063) then (http://www.christianforums.com/5119) shall be (http://www.christianforums.com/2071) great (http://www.christianforums.com/3173) tribulation, (http://www.christianforums.com/2347) such as (http://www.christianforums.com/3634) was (http://www.christianforums.com/1096) not (http://www.christianforums.com/3756) since (http://www.christianforums.com/575) the beginning (http://www.christianforums.com/746) of the world (http://www.christianforums.com/2889) to this (http://www.christianforums.com/2193) time, (http://www.christianforums.com/3568) no, (http://www.christianforums.com/3761) nor ever (http://www.christianforums.com/3364) shall be (http://www.christianforums.com/1096). 22 And (http://www.christianforums.com/2532) except (http://www.christianforums.com/1508) those (http://www.christianforums.com/1565) days (http://www.christianforums.com/2250) should be shortened (http://www.christianforums.com/2856), there (http://www.christianforums.com/3756) should (http://www.christianforums.com/302) no (http://www.christianforums.com/3956) flesh (http://www.christianforums.com/4561) be saved (http://www.christianforums.com/4982): but (http://www.christianforums.com/1161) for (http://www.christianforums.com/1223) the elect's sake (http://www.christianforums.com/1588) those (http://www.christianforums.com/1565) days (http://www.christianforums.com/2250) shall be shortened (http://www.christianforums.com/2856). 23 Then (http://www.christianforums.com/5119) if (http://www.christianforums.com/1437) any man (http://www.christianforums.com/5100) shall say (http://www.christianforums.com/2036) unto you, (http://www.christianforums.com/5213) Lo (http://www.christianforums.com/2400), here (http://www.christianforums.com/5602) is Christ, (http://www.christianforums.com/5547) or (http://www.christianforums.com/2228) there; (http://www.christianforums.com/5602) believe (http://www.christianforums.com/4100) it not. (http://www.christianforums.com/3361) 24 For (http://www.christianforums.com/1063) there shall arise (http://www.christianforums.com/1453) false Christs, (http://www.christianforums.com/5580) and (http://www.christianforums.com/2532) false prophets, (http://www.christianforums.com/5578) and (http://www.christianforums.com/2532) shall shew (http://www.christianforums.com/1325) great (http://www.christianforums.com/3173) signs (http://www.christianforums.com/4592) and (http://www.christianforums.com/2532) wonders; (http://www.christianforums.com/5059) insomuch that, (http://www.christianforums.com/5620) if (http://www.christianforums.com/1487) it were possible, (http://www.christianforums.com/1415) they shall deceive (http://www.christianforums.com/4105) the very (http://www.christianforums.com/2532) elect (http://www.christianforums.com/1588)

Hmmmm I see alot here and I will take the warning included about many false christs trying to decieve........

Lets look at your point

You said


Servchurch
Junior Member
51 [Male] [Christian - ]
[View Servchurch's CF Friends!] [Click here to bless Servchurch now!] [Read or post in Servchurch's Guestbook] [Add to Servchurch's Reputation] [Support CF on behalf of Servchurch!] Servchurch is online now and should be surfing the web 07:38 AM

You totally missed my point which precedes your point. Could you respond to it directly. Thanks.

In Matt. 24.20 God said to violate the law.

No where if I answer you directly do I see G-d telling anyone to violate the Law, in fact if WOE serves me corrrectly I think it is a sound of regret and a exclamation of saddness

Now if you had listened to a Bible teacher somewhere and he was drawing conclusions and making suppositions and making a point he would reference each occasion of the point He is making and he would be able to show the obviousness of his posit by the fact of the W-rd not .......opine.

Sir, sadly as I posted the full context of what you tried to quote for your validation of G-d commanding to break a commandment or as you Say, God said to violate the law and you are in a unenviable position.

You used a passage of scripture that wanrs against those who might be false and you use it as a basis to tell me something you think is true but no where states it is a fact and yet I am reminded of the person who says NO thats not waht it means let me interpret it for you.

I am sorry SERVCHURCH but alot of people reveal alot about themselves not only by WHAT they post but how. Your misquote reveals alot but the fact ou personally choose that one portion which has in it a warning about falsity I must say bore a great burden in my heart for it rang true your use of it, but not for the reason you state.

I fear I heard the Voice of My G-d in it and see a warning of "what Spirit" is behind the point you are making and as such since you have revealed you are not in the reasons why we beleive as we do but appear to want to preach,

I appreciate your practicing on me, in love it allows me to exercise great patience and longsuffering as well as another day to see G-d reveal Himself in others even when they seek to misquote the W-rd, G-d will still reveal or in this case, highlight himself to all of us who have ears to hear waht the spirit is saying today.

Thank you Servchurch

Good bye.

Eben Abram

[Athaliamum]

I've had this same conversation so many times over the last few days.

Rabbi Shaul's or Paul as many know him are some of the most misunderstood books of the bible. It was a common belief at the time that salvation was achieved by legalistic observance of the Torah. The book of Roman, 1 Corinthians and Ephesisans Paul is trying to explain that salvation is not something you get by doing something but as a free gift through faith. Now over the years in man's natural tendency to pervert what is good this thought has been changed to mean that the Torah is no longer vaild, that following it at all is not neccessary. This extreem again is a lile.

Romans 3:20
"...because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are."

Romans 4:15
"Because the Torah worketh wrath: for where no Torah is, there is no transgression."

The Torah or Law is the only standard by which YHVH has defined sin.

Now to the verse that you particularly quoted. G-d is a loving G-d but he is also a just G-d. For G-d to be just, there had to be a pentalty for disobedience and that pentalty is death. But G-d is also a merciful G-d, so he sent his Son to die in our place. Now through the beauty of his grace we may come before him washed clean by having faith. So what I am saying is that faith removes us from the pentalty of sin. Sin is defined by Torah.
Hence the verses before the one you have just plucked out and used as evidence out of context. Paul is saying that it doesn't matter if Jew or Gentile, that faith still brings salvation.

Ephesians 2:4-5
"But G-d is so rich in mercy and loves us with such intense love that, even when we were dead because of our acts of disobedience, he brought us to life along with the Messiah - it is by grace that you have been delivered."

"Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary we confirm Torah" Romans 3:31

"Don't you know that id you present yourselves to someone as obediant slaves, then, the one who you are obeying, you are slaves - wether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to being made righteous? By God's grace, you, who were onces slaves to sin, obeyed from your heart the pattern of teaching to which you were exposed; and after you had been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness."
Romans 6:16-18

If righteousness is the result of a lack of sin, therefore as believers it is our duty as slaves of G-d to rid ourselves of all sin as much as we possibly can, Yeshua will bridge the gap of our failures. Sin is defined by disobedience to Torah which is G-d's commands. Therefore in seeking to do what G-d wants as sinless people we strive to follow Torah in it's context - it's new context. Obviously laws such as the sacrifical system have been fulfilled in Messiah, but those laws only make up a small amount of Torah. Torah is a moral guide. Do not covert, love the L-rd your G-d with all you soul, mind and strength. These are not obsolete and anyone who calls themselves "christain" can't say that they are. These are commands of Torah. You can't say that it's wrong to murder because G-d said so but it's ok not to keep shabbat, it is hypocritical. You can't pick and chose by your own understanding what G-d has said is righteous, that's for him to do and he has. We follow Torah out of love, we follow Torah out of trust, we follow Torah out of Faith. The following of Torah is not a salvation issue, no one here will say that, it's a faith issue. Having faith in Messiah does not abolish the definition of sin which is Torah, it only abolishes our personal pentalty for disobeying it.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Moderator

WHOOOPS by the time I posted I saw three other posts had reponded including your.....(smile)

I bow out glad you are around.

Eben

[Shimshon]

Do we not fulfill the law by the Spirit dwelling in us? Is the law not written upon our hearts?

Does not a gentile who was never given Torah become Torah when what Torah commands is manifest within his heart?

Is not the law of the Spirit and to be observed in Spirit?

Is not the law holy?

[Servchurch]

You fulfill the spirit of the law, not the law for Jesus abolished the law which was only for Israel; now Israel is not even to keep the law. Now the law still remains until all these things shall pass, but remember, Jesus came to fill up the law, so it is no the same anymore. What then do we fulfill by the spirit of the law by the Holy Spirit is that which Jesus came to fulfill and fill up. So just know you are sinning against God when you try to keep the law. To give real life example, a shop owner is allowed to keep his store open on Saturday as well as Sunday because there is no Christian Sabbath. The Lord's day is nothing like the Sabbath. Whereas the sabbath, if you walked too far you sin, now Jesus says on the sabbath you can walk farther than that in Matt. 24.20. And the Lord's day is a day of spiritual activity, whereas the Sabbath is a day of doing nothing. If you did anything, you would be violating it, so this helps you see that the Lord's day has nothing to do with the sabbath that has passed. I love how I am able to explain this so easily by the Holy Spirit for you.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Atahl

Woo Hoo !!!

When a man looks in a mirror sometimes he thinks he hates the mirror because there is no way the reflection could be himself.

So too when a person looks to Law and at times, some who are admant about having to dissuade a person for choosing to keep thier own choices, does so because they fear the law. Fear waht it reveals, fear for thier own faith and fear .....what if....

A person who is assured not only embraces those who are Observant or Advocacy of Lifestyle Choice, but also those who have "seemingly" a differeing approach....

It's refeshing when a person can balance the two and still be true to thier own personal choice.

Eben

[Athaliamum]

I swear people don't read my posts, they just go on with the tanty without really looking into it and make themselves look like fools. The scripture is pretty clear when it is in context, take it out of context and you make it a lie.

[Servchurch]

Regarding the Torah, we are not as Christians rejecting the Torah by abolishing the law that Jesus says to do away with. The Torah is still true. God still created in Gen. 1.1. Abraham is still the man of monotheistic faith. Israel still sufferred 430 years in slavery. Israel is still the first nation God revealed Himself too. The OT is still a shadow of the promise we have now.

[Athaliamum]

What can you do when a babe spits out the milk it is offered and says that it is of no use to him? It is not in our nature to watch him sit and starve.

[Shimshon]

(Jesus abolished the law, the law still remains, it is not the same any more)

Is it abolished, or does it remain, or did it change? I don't see how it could be all three. It's either gone (abolished) or it's not (remain) or it transformed.

My point is, these terms leave very different ideas in the minds of people. The ablility to convey this in clear terms would be of great value, no?

(just know you are sinning against God when you try to keep the law)

Is this not between me and God? Does not God reveal this to those he loves? It would be a shame to know that to remind one of his convictions is the only reason you bothered to fellowship.

Love leads to repentance, debating is a form of argument. It usually leads to strife. I do pray that is not your desire.

[Servchurch]

Think of the law like a DOS program working underneath the Windows software which Jesus comes to fill up of the law so you are no longer under the law, but are to live by the Spirit of the law that he fills up. If you try to still operate by the DOS program, you will by die by that method unsaved. You can see how the DOS program is still there, but nobody who is saved uses it. Not until Christ returns in person on earth and reigns for 1000 years will, after that time, the law (DOS) be abolished. It is like how windows for many years was still operating with DOS underneath, but today there is no DOS shell which was just a shadow of things to come.
Eph. 2.15 - Why do You Still Try to Keep the Law?


"By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles. His purpose was to make peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new person from the two groups" (Eph. 2.15)

Why do some people reject God's Word and still try to keep the law such as trying to keep the Sabbath? For example why does the RC make the Lord's day a Christian Sabbath when there is no more Sabbath?

[Shimshon]

Jesus says on the sabbath you can walk farther than that in Matt. 24.20.
I'll side with ITTB on this one. How do you come to this by this verse? Pray that your flight not be on the shabbat indicates to you that the flight will be on the shabbat AND it will be farther than allowed? Isn't that a bit much to read into this verse?

[Athaliamum]

I have a simple question for you Servchurch:

What is Sin?

[Sephania]

I guess my mod hat with the name Yeshua on it wasn't warning enough so now I have to close this thread for review and clean-up :(