Old Testament Law

[Seeker of the Truth]

Ok, so when you go to a Baptist church today, most pastors would say it's a New Testament Baptist Church (and other interesting adjectives such as "Bible Believing or Fundament") since it follows New Testament Laws. So, as Christians, are we to follow only the New Testament and not the Old Testament? An example of this would be like the other day, a guy at school was talking to another peer about tatoos. He said that in the Old Testament, your body was considered a temple of God and that you should respect it by not putting any marks on it. (I know where i read this but I can't remember the book it's in right now) So, he said, since we're New Testament Christians, we don't have to follow that law/command. This doesn't make any sense to me, can someone please explain why we would have an Old Testament in our Bible if we're not to follow it?

Thanks,

CJ

[christian73]

I'll just say this. If you read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, you'll read where Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it.

[Nadiine]

Ok, so when you go to a Baptist church today, most pastors would say it's a New Testament Baptist Church (and other interesting adjectives such as "Bible Believing or Fundament") since it follows New Testament Laws. So, as Christians, are we to follow only the New Testament and not the Old Testament? An example of this would be like the other day, a guy at school was talking to another peer about tatoos. He said that in the Old Testament, your body was considered a temple of God and that you should respect it by not putting any marks on it. (I know where i read this but I can't remember the book it's in right now) So, he said, since we're New Testament Christians, we don't have to follow that law/command. This doesn't make any sense to me, can someone please explain why we would have an Old Testament in our Bible if we're not to follow it?

Thanks,
CJ
:wave:
Your question is worth about a 3 page answer because there's so much detail to go into. lol

But briefly, the person's post before mine is right, the law isn't literally "gone" or "erased"... it's fulfilled by Jesus thru the cross.
The penalty of sin is death (physical & spiritual), Jesus lived w/ us & fulfilled the OT law perfectly in our place, then died for us (sinless); paying the sin debt for us, so that we have life THRU His sacrifice for us [if we accept Him as our Saviour].

Now, the law had a ceremonial/sacrificial system, that's now obsolete for Christians, becuz Christ is our Lamb/sacrifice. That part of the law isn't necessary.
BUT -- the lost who have no sacrifice for their sins (who reject Jesus' payment), have to pay for their sins.

They are under the death penalty for sin without Jesus. (meaning, the law isn't GONE, the law still demands a BLOOD SACRIFICE for sin - life for life). JESUS fulfilled the sacrificial system entirely. So it's VOID, but still in tact to judge the Lost. (Mat. 5)

Now -- There are other laws in the OT Torah too - moral laws (sexual sins of all kinds, lying, stealing, murder, bearing false witness, coveting, etc.). Those 'moral laws' STILL STAND today.
They were actually in effect long before the OT Torah was written. Adam & Eve, Cain & the people at the flood were judged & punished for their moral sins.

So all the moral laws from OT are reiterated into the NT and are STILL VALID. (1 Cor 5:9-11, 1 Tim 1:8-11, Gal. 5, Eph. 5, 6 etc.).

Lastly, there were a bunch of civil laws we were never under, that had to do with how society was run - (working with oxen, donkeys, mold & mildew laws, clothing rules, etc). Romans 2:14-15 is interesting about Gentiles who didn't have the law.

One thing to mention, while the OT dietary laws aren't in effect, they sure do show us what healthy eating is, the way God intended. Lots of people use the bible diet for good health & nutritionists find it's accurate.

Anyways, the OT is full of teachings & prophecies that are important & valid today...
It prophecies about Jesus coming, and other end time's issues - we need those today to help support why the bible is authentic.
We just aren't under all those rigid rules that mainly don't apply to us.

Hope this helps? sorry so long.:angel:

[Seeker of the Truth]

no, that clears alot of the confustion up, thanks alot!

and thanks to you christian73, that is so true, sometimes big details like that just skip my mind!

[Nadiine]

I forgot to give you this verse - it might help make better sense of the 'moral laws' we're under today (which are laws we find in the OT torah):

Romans 13:9-10
For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up (fulfilled) in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


The NT "Law of Christ" is Love - & the 2 highest laws from the Torah "Love of God" and "love of neighbor as yourself".
When we walk in those commands, we're obeying His moral laws that are still in effect.
:angel:

[Andyman_1970]

First, regarding the OP, most of us, if not all of us are Gentiles, read Acts 15, the Jerusalem council spoke as to what the requirements Gentiles should observe regarding the 613 commands in the Torah (aka the Old Testament Law)

I'll just say this. If you read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, you'll read where Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it.

A point of clarification here. The phrase "fulfill" when used with regards to Torah does not mean to complete or finish as we English readers tend to assume it means. The term is a rabbinic idiom used to indicate if one properly interpreted Torah, to improperly interprete Torah was to "abolish Torah". Jesus is saying He came to give us His interpretation of Torah, God's interpretation basically.

[arunma]

Ok, so when you go to a Baptist church today, most pastors would say it's a New Testament Baptist Church (and other interesting adjectives such as "Bible Believing or Fundament") since it follows New Testament Laws. So, as Christians, are we to follow only the New Testament and not the Old Testament? An example of this would be like the other day, a guy at school was talking to another peer about tatoos. He said that in the Old Testament, your body was considered a temple of God and that you should respect it by not putting any marks on it. (I know where i read this but I can't remember the book it's in right now) So, he said, since we're New Testament Christians, we don't have to follow that law/command. This doesn't make any sense to me, can someone please explain why we would have an Old Testament in our Bible if we're not to follow it?

Thanks,

CJ

I just got done with a short study on the book of Leviticus (I recommend that everyone study this often-neglected book BTW), so it's fresh in my mind. This is the verse about tattoos:
You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:28)
Seems pretty clear, doesn't it? Maybe so, until you read it in context.
You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes. You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard. You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD. "Do not profane your daughter by making her a prostitute, lest the land fall into prostitution and the land become full of depravity." (Leviticus 19:26-29)
As a vegetarian, I haven't given it much thought, but my guess is that most people here eat meat that contains blood. And several of us don't even have beards, so we are already violating this regulation. There is no obvious reason to treat the commandment on tattoos any differently. Now, I personally would never get a tattoo for several reasons: many professional employers require their employees to show no visible tattoos, I don't desire to permanently alter my skin, and I'm just not that creative. But I know very godly people who have tattoos, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with them.

As for "New Testament law," I'm not so sure about what this means. It seems clear to me that we are not under the Law, but under grace (Paul refers to this as the "Law of Christ" in Galatians 6:2 and 1 Corinthians 9:21). Are there laws? Certainly. The evangelists report that Jesus mentioned what we must do in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. And the Apostle Paul referred, a couple of times, to deeds one could do to exclude himself from the Kingdom of Heaven (hatred, malace, homosexuality, idolatry, etc.). But if you read the Law of Moses, it is rather strict, and it repays disobedience with punishment. This is contrasted by Romans 8:1: there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The Law was our schoolmaster, but we are now under grace. There is no reason for us to put another yoke around our necks.

[Nadiine]

I just got done with a short study on the book of Leviticus (I recommend that everyone study this often-neglected book BTW), so it's fresh in my mind. This is the verse about tattoos:You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:28)

Seems pretty clear, doesn't it? Maybe so, until you read it in context.You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes. You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard. You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD. "Do not profane your daughter by making her a prostitute, lest the land fall into prostitution and the land become full of depravity." (Leviticus 19:26-29)
As a vegetarian, I haven't given it much thought, but my guess is that most people here eat meat that contains blood. And several of us don't even have beards, so we are already violating this regulation. There is no obvious reason to treat the commandment on tattoos any differently. Now, I personally would never get a tattoo for several reasons: many professional employers require their employees to show no visible tattoos, I don't desire to permanently alter my skin, and I'm just not that creative. But I know very godly people who have tattoos, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with them.

As for "New Testament law," I'm not so sure about what this means. It seems clear to me that we are not under the Law, but under grace (Paul refers to this as the "Law of Christ" in Galatians 6:2 and 1 Corinthians 9:21). Are there laws? Certainly. The evangelists report that Jesus mentioned what we must do in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. And the Apostle Paul referred, a couple of times, to deeds one could do to exclude himself from the Kingdom of Heaven (hatred, malace, homosexuality, idolatry, etc.). But if you read the Law of Moses, it is rather strict, and it repays disobedience with punishment. This is contrasted by Romans 8:1: there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The Law was our schoolmaster, but we are now under grace. There is no reason for us to put another yoke around our necks.

I hope I'm understanding your post correctly :)

I think this is where the NT "law of Liberty" comes into play. When it comes to clothing, jewlery, hairstyle, music, makeup,... etc., I think we're to go by our inner conscience.

I'm with you about the tattoos - I am personally VERY convicted about tattoos that they aren't right for ME to have. IF i were to go get one, against my conscience (feeling I shouldn't have one), THEN IT'S SIN FOR ME to get one.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

I feel it's wrong [for me] to get a tattoo, YET, I HAVE PIERCED EARS! I don't feel any conviction about that. (just in ears lol). I DO feel wrong about BODY piercings & excessive piercing... See what I mean?

Another Christian will feel another way...? I go by my own inner conviction on things that aren't spelled out in the NT.
The OT is a very good guideline that we shouldn't ignore as if it's old & useless.

The Jehovah Witnesses go as far as interpreting 'eating blood' to mean that we cannot recieve any blood transfusions which would SAVE LIVES!

I personally think it boils down to inner conviction in each believer on things not spelled out as 'SIN' in the NT.
Romans 2:14-15 is very informative on inner conscience.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
:angel:

[edb19]

I haven't had a chance to read everyone's posts (will later), but do want to throw this into the mix.

The entire Bible, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is Christo-centric. Scripture, in it's entirity, speaks of Christ. I think our churches and pastors do us a great disservice when they speak as if there are 2 Scriptures, or worse yet that God has changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

As to the issue with tatoos - as I understand it historically - whenever Christianity came to a people who practiced tatooing they discarded the practice upon baptism as that (baptism) was the only mark they needed.

And while, no, we don't follow all the dietary and/or clothing laws any longer - I see no reason for what is essentially self-mutilation.

[Andyman_1970]

And while, no, we don't follow all the dietary and/or clothing laws any longer - I see no reason for what is essentially self-mutilation.

This is one of those areas where it boils down to personal preference and not a Biblical command. In these cases I revert to Romans 14. The problem comes, IMO, when people fail to realize, for example in this instance tatoos, that their dislike is a preference and not substantiated by a Biblical command not to get a tatoo.

[edb19]

This is one of those areas where it boils down to personal preference and not a Biblical command. In these cases I revert to Romans 14. The problem comes, IMO, when people fail to realize, for example in this instance tatoos, that their dislike is a preference and not substantiated by a Biblical command not to get a tatoo.

Except as I read Scripture it is a Biblical command. Leviticus makes it very clear about not tattooing. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and should be treated reverently. We're created in God's image - what need is there to alter that creation. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference to Romans 14 - but IMO that only strengthens the argument against tattooing - whatever doesn't proceed from faith is sin.

[christian73]

Except as I read Scripture it is a Biblical command. Leviticus makes it very clear about not tattooing. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and should be treated reverently. We're created in God's image - what need is there to alter that creation. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference to Romans 14 - but IMO that only strengthens the argument against tattooing - whatever doesn't proceed from faith is sin.

:amen:

[Nadiine]

Except as I read Scripture it is a Biblical command. Leviticus makes it very clear about not tattooing. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and should be treated reverently. We're created in God's image - what need is there to alter that creation. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference to Romans 14 - but IMO that only strengthens the argument against tattooing - whatever doesn't proceed from faith is sin.

Wasn't the reason for no tattooing about not trying to look like the pagans that lived around them? I think I remember reading that. Possibly God's people always trying to fit in with the gentiles w/ jewlery, clothing, tattoo's, piercings, etc.?

If it is sin, then what of having your ears pierced & men wearing goatee's etc.? I have no personal conviction of ear piercing for myself & had mine done in my teens.
But I do feel it's wrong to get body & multiple piercings to look like a human pin cushion. ;) :swoon:
(if I had a daughter, I wouldn't allow her to get a tattoo or body piercings either). If she still wanted them when she moved out of my house, then she could get them on her own.

I'm not sure how all the laws like this work; I just keep myself responsible to the Lord on stuff like this.

[mont974x4]

hmm if we try to put ourselves back under the Law in one area aren't we putting ousrelves back under the whole Law and are doomed to failure?


Otherwise, we all better quit eating, drinking, and go naked....and that's just the start.

[JPPT1974]

hmm if we try to put ourselves back under the Law in one area aren't we putting ousrelves back under the whole Law and are doomed to failure?


Otherwise, we all better quit eating, drinking, and go naked....and that's just the start.

If we are back under that law we are
Or would be living before Christ came
Meaning we would be very much in a lost
And a dying world.

[Nadiine]

hmm if we try to put ourselves back under the Law in one area aren't we putting ousrelves back under the whole Law and are doomed to failure?

Otherwise, we all better quit eating, drinking, and go naked....and that's just the start.

I can't agree more :thumbsup: -- but, to obey commands of God today doesn't mean we're back "under" the law. (meaning the OT Torah system of law).

Plus, obedience to that Law was for their Righteousness. If we claim to be under law, we're basically saying, "obedience to the Torah IS my salvation". We have Christ now. :amen: :clap:

But, after salvation, don't we have obligations to obey God's commands that we're still under (which were included in the OT law)?
ie. do not lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, covet, bear false witness, murder, kidnap, hate, abuse, gossip, gluttony, adultery, etc.?

We aren't under the OT system of Law, but we ARE under "laws"/commands.
(Love of God & neighbor as ourself). (Mt. 22:36-40)
What's interesting about that is, Jesus says the 2 greatest laws (from the OT Torah) REMAIN over us: love of God and neighbor.
2 [moral] laws from the Torah are still in effect -

The difference is, we aren't obeying God for our salvation, but rather because of our salvation.

I think that's important.
That law isn't removed either (as if it's gone & taken away.. it's been fulfilled by Christ FOR US who receive Him... every 'jot & tittle' of it stand - it is there to judge the Lost who reject their sacrifice for sin).

& since the law is fulfilled when we obey LOVE (of God & others), we obey the entire law that way.
It's a deep, complicated subject.:help:

[Andyman_1970]

Except as I read Scripture it is a Biblical command. Leviticus makes it very clear about not tattooing.

A Biblical command to who? Context is important here. Again read Acts 15, as Gentiles the Jerusalem council outlines which of the 613 commands we as Gentiles are to observe........no mention of tatoos on Acts 15.

If you're going to observe the tatoo command, are you also going to observe the dietary commands, how about the the commands regarding slaves, or say not having clothing of two different fabrics?

Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and should be treated reverently. We're created in God's image - what need is there to alter that creation. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference to Romans 14 - but IMO that only strengthens the argument against tattooing - whatever doesn't proceed from faith is sin.

My reference to Romans 14 was that as Paul said, some observe a sabbath and some don't, but to "tolerate" if your brother observes a sabbath (in this example) and you don't. Again this points to preferences vs. a clear cut Biblical imperitive.

[TwinCrier]

Ok, so when you go to a Baptist church today, most pastors would say it's a New Testament Baptist Church (and other interesting adjectives such as "Bible Believing or Fundament") since it follows New Testament Laws. So, as Christians, are we to follow only the New Testament and not the Old Testament? An example of this would be like the other day, a guy at school was talking to another peer about tatoos. He said that in the Old Testament, your body was considered a temple of God and that you should respect it by not putting any marks on it. (I know where i read this but I can't remember the book it's in right now) So, he said, since we're New Testament Christians, we don't have to follow that law/command. This doesn't make any sense to me, can someone please explain why we would have an Old Testament in our Bible if we're not to follow it?

Thanks,

CJTattooing was not a "law." It was forbidden and still should be frowned upon by Christians. Unless spending the Lord's money on graffitti that could give you hepititis or AIDS is a virtue. :(
Old Testament Law dealt with animal sacrifice, temple worship and such, which was strictly for the Jewish nation.

[mont974x4]

Awful lot of hullabaloo over tattoos..which only recieved one small mention in the whole Bible. Compare that too other more important issues and it fades away.



Years ago we were attending a large church, when I was in HS. This church put on big musicals every CHRISTmas and Easter. They had asked my dad to play Christ on the cross. Well dad has a Tattoo from his wild and wooly Marine Corp days. Despite being one of the leaders in the church, they replaced him with a non-tattooed man. :sigh: legalism at its best. We were sonn asked to leave the church. No great loss for us, as we had been trying to hold them accountable for their health/wealth "gospel" trends and other unbiblical teachings. I suspect they just needed an excuse to give us the boot.


I prefer the Romans 14 approach...If you have tats I hold nothing against you (as I have 2 of them) and if you chose not to have tats I don't hold that against you either.

[Andyman_1970]

It was forbidden and still should be frowned upon by Christians.

Chapter and verse please where the Bible says this?

[mont974x4]

This is the one and only place I could find anything that might be translated as a command to not have a tattoo.

ASV
Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am Jehovah.

YLT
Lev 19:28 `And a cutting for the soul ye do not put in your flesh; and a writing, a cross-mark, ye do not put on you; I am Jehovah.

KJV (with Strongs numbers)
Lev 19:28 Ye shall not3808 make5414 any cuttings8296 in your flesh1320 for the dead,5315 nor3808 print5414 any marks3793, 7085 upon you: I589 am the LORD.3068



marks (Lev 19:28)

H3793
כּתבת
kethôbeth
keth-o'-beth
From H3789; a letter or other mark branded on the skin: - X any [mark].

H7085
קעקע
qa‛ăqa‛
kah-ak-ah'
From the same as H6970; an incision or gash: - + mark.




It is my understanding that I am not under this.

[Nadiine]

Tattooing was not a "law." It was forbidden and still should be frowned upon by Christians. Unless spending the Lord's money on graffitti that could give you hepititis or AIDS is a virtue. :(
Old Testament Law dealt with animal sacrifice, temple worship and such, which was strictly for the Jewish nation.

Actually the law was more than just the sacrificial system, it gave them their civil laws (governmental, work ethic, etc.) and moral laws (sexual sins, coveting, theft, lying, murder etc).

But I think this issue is at a stalemate because it's hard to prove that law/command still stands under grace (and if it does, then no men can have a goatee, certain haircuts & girls can't pierce their ears, etc. like the rest of it says.

All I will say is, we shouldn't JUDGE people by mere appearance as Jesus said in John.

In reading Monte's story about his father having a tattoo from his military days, to bypass him like that is terrible and just shouldn't happen - if anything, they could of put a long sleeve shirt over him or covered it up with makeup. (if they felt it would detract from the character which could be valid).

But anyways, let's keep our beliefs and still love each other & not divide over this either way. :groupray:

[mont974x4]

Certainly no hard feelings on my part, Nadine. :groupray:


It is an interesting discussion tho. ;) Of course, I enjoy discussing any and all Scripture.



Jay

[Sword-In-Hand]

But if you read the Law of Moses, it is rather strict, and it repays disobedience with punishment. This is contrasted by Romans 8:1: there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The Law was our schoolmaster, but we are now under grace. There is no reason for us to put another yoke around our necks.
Based on this quote, I wanted to ask you something on this subject. What do you think of punishment now since we're under Grace and not the Law? I had a pastor tell me once that the reason we don't see God unleashing rains of fire and plagues across the land, is because He is content with the saved and unsaved. He's given us a way that leads to Him, and a way that doesn't. What do you think about that?

[Sword-In-Hand]

I'm in agreement that the Law probably prohibited tattoos, largely because it was a pagan ritual.

But now under Grace, I think whatever you do, do the glory of the Lord. I saw a pastor on the TV show Miami Ink, and he was covered with tattoos, all having a Christian message. He said he's been able to reach people for Jesus with everyone of the tats on his body. To me that says it all. The one he got on the show was completely awesome.

It said, "Born Again to Raze Hell" drawn around the face of Jesus.

[MbiaJc]

Ok, so when you go to a Baptist church today, most pastors would say it's a New Testament Baptist Church (and other interesting adjectives such as "Bible Believing or Fundament") since it follows New Testament Laws. So, as Christians, are we to follow only the New Testament and not the Old Testament? An example of this would be like the other day, a guy at school was talking to another peer about tatoos. He said that in the Old Testament, your body was considered a temple of God and that you should respect it by not putting any marks on it. (I know where i read this but I can't remember the book it's in right now) So, he said, since we're New Testament Christians, we don't have to follow that law/command. This doesn't make any sense to me, can someone please explain why we would have an Old Testament in our Bible if we're not to follow it?

Thanks,

CJ

The Law, as our School Master has led us to Jesus and the Cross. Now we are not under the Law but Grace, however not without Law to God, but under the law of Jesus Christ. He gave us two Commandments. #1. Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. #2.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
When one keeps these two he has obayed all the law and prophets.

[Nadiine]

The Law, as our School Master has led us to Jesus and the Cross. Now we are not under the Law but Grace, however not without Law to God, but under the law of Jesus Christ. He gave us two Commandments. #1. Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. #2.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
When one keeps these two he has obayed all the law and prophets.

EXACTLY! And those 2 laws ARE from the Torah; they actually aren't "new" laws.

Not being under law doesn't mean we're lawless - we're under the laws of LOVE, and when we love God & others, we don't cheat them, lie to them, steal from them, murder them, commit adultery w/ them, etc etc.

:amen: :amen:

[arunma]

I'm in agreement that the Law probably prohibited tattoos, largely because it was a pagan ritual.

But now under Grace, I think whatever you do, do the glory of the Lord. I saw a pastor on the TV show Miami Ink, and he was covered with tattoos, all having a Christian message. He said he's been able to reach people for Jesus with everyone of the tats on his body. To me that says it all. The one he got on the show was completely awesome.

Reminds me of the time our church had someone sing a rap song (complete with Reformed Protestant doctrine!) as part of the service. Personally I hate rap, but I loved that song.

Incidentally, I just wanted to point out that Sister Edie is absolutely right to point out the importance of the Old Testament to Christians. Whatever one's position on tatoos, let us never make the mistake of saying that the Old Testament (the Law in particular) is a "Jewish book." We are children of God and heirs of the covenant, and the Old Testament is as much about Christ Jesus as the New. So while I think that tatoos are entirely permissible, I do not do so by appealing to the church's largely Gentile status.

[DeaconDean]

As a former Marine who had to go on what we affectionally called "cruises," I have been around a lot of Navy men, and indeed a lot of "jar-heads" who had tatoos. Some were genuine works of art, and some were of the "jail-house" variety. I myself, could never bring myself to get one. I seen quite a few very nice ones too. But that never led me to get one. Tatoos still seem to one of choice. I do agree with arunma's comments about the Old Testament laws and marking ones self, but by the same token, it may well be taken as in reference to pagen rituals of the time. While I wouldn't get one, I'll not put anyone done for having one either. Scripture on this is still a largely matter of "personal" interpretation. And lets leave it at that.

Now as to the "Law." Two things stand out about the "law,"

The main thing about the law was that it defined what was and what was not sin: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom. 7:7) And similarly: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Gal. 3:23) And as someone said eariler, the whole of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is to point to Jesus Christ.
The "Law" could not and never will, bring righteousness that God requires from His people. Example: "For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." (Lev. 11:45) And of course we know we cannot do this because of our "fallen nature." However, we can strive to be as holy as possible while in this mortal flesh. When God gave Moses the "law" on Mt. Sinai, it seems to most that they forget one small thing; the law also included the sacrifice.And here is the meat of the whole matter. If the "law" could bring about mans righteousness and justification before the Lord, then there would be no need for a sacrifice. But by God giving the sacrifice included into the "law" we see that the "law" can do nothing but comdemn. When the law was given the lamb was also given. At the same time God gave the provisions of the law which expressed the righteousness of God, God provided an altar and a substitute where the blood could flow and men could see that salvation was not in the attempted keeping of the law's demends, but in reliance upon the provision of the substitute which God had Himself ordained and provided. Righteousness comes apart from the law. Righteousness is imputed to you on the basis of the shedding of the blood. All the law can do is show the sinner exactly was is and what isn't sin as defined by God and to show the sinner his need for the substitute, Jesus Christ. That is why it says:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:..Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." -Rom. 3:21-23, 27

God Bless

Till all are one.

[arunma]

While I wouldn't get one, I'll not put anyone done for having one either. Scripture on this is still a largely matter of "personal" interpretation. And lets leave it at that.

As usual Dean, it looks like we agree.

[Nadiine]

Incidentally, I just wanted to point out that Sister Edie is absolutely right to point out the importance of the Old Testament to Christians. Whatever one's position on tatoos, let us never make the mistake of saying that the Old Testament (the Law in particular) is a "Jewish book." We are children of God and heirs of the covenant, and the Old Testament is as much about Christ Jesus as the New.

Thank you for mentioning the importance of the Old Testament. More and more today I'm hearing how insignificant and obsolete it is.
Hopefully this is just out of ignorance...

But the OT gives us the creation accounts, intricate historical facts, prophecies of Christ, end times and other key events (all which help prove biblical authenticity) as well as insight into who God is, how to fight spiritual battles, while offering medical facts and dietary guidelines that are good for us.

I think our pastors do some disservice by largely ignoring the OT to teach from and staying only in the New; it gives some people the idea that it's not important to us anymore.

Thanks for your post! :wave:

[DeaconDean]

As usual Dean, it looks like we agree.

Thank you friend. It has been said that "Great minds think alike." And I say that with confidence in you.

But one more thought if I may concerning the law. It is true that Paul said:

"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." -Rom. 7:12

We must also show what the writer of Hebrews says:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:" -Heb. 8:7-8

The law was flawed in that no matter what man could do, he could never be declared righteous or justified in the sight of God in regards to the law. You were condemned, God thunders from My. Sinai. You are free and righteous God sings from Calvary. If I fall before His speech at one declaration, I must rise by His speech because of the other declaration. There is no difference.

A careful study of the epistles of Paul shows that Paul in his mind thought of time as divided into then and now. Then, was everything that happened before Christ died. Now, is everything that is contengent on the death of the Savior. Then we were dead in sins, now, we are alive forevermore. Then we were under the law, now we are under grace, raised from the dead by the Gospel.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." -Rom. 6:14

Jesus freed us from the death penalty called "the law." Jesus took all 613 laws and put them in two "easy-to-follow" commandments:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt. 22:37-40

And sad as it may sound, we can't even do these two. Why? Because we can't in and of ourselves fulfill the requirments of the law. But...I know one who did, and because He did, and I am born again in Him, God looks at me through Him and now I have fulfilled all that the law required. His righteousness is now my righteousness. Because He fulfilled the law, now I have fulfilled the law. His righteousness is now my own righteousness! So when someone says that we have to obey the law, say to them that you are not under the law but grace! And because He fulfilled the law, and His righteousness is imputed unto you, you have fulfilled the law and are now declared righteous before the Lord God.

PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!Halaleuijah I stand redeemed and righteous and justified before the great "I AM."

Law? What Law? The "law" that pointed me towards Jesus!

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Nadiine]

Thank you friend. It has been said that "Great minds think alike." And I say that with confidence in you.

But one more thought if I may concerning the law. It is true that Paul said:

"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." -Rom. 7:12

We must also show what the writer of Hebrews says:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:" -Heb. 8:7-8

The law was flawed in that no matter what man could do, he could never be declared righteous or justified in the sight of God in regards to the law. You were condemned, God thunders from My. Sinai. You are free and righteous God sings from Calvary. If I fall before His speech at one declaration, I must rise by His speech because of the other declaration. There is no difference.

A careful study of the epistles of Paul shows that Paul in his mind thought of time as divided into then and now. Then, was everything that happened before Christ died. Now, is everything that is contengent on the death of the Savior. Then we were dead in sins, now, we are alive forevermore. Then we were under the law, now we are under grace, raised from the dead by the Gospel.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." -Rom. 6:14

Jesus freed us from the death penalty called "the law." Jesus took all 613 laws and put them in two "easy-to-follow" commandments:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt. 22:37-40

And sad as it may sound, we can't even do these two. Why? Because we can't in and of ourselves fulfill the requirments of the law. But...I know one who did, and because He did, and I am born again in Him, God looks at me through Him and now I have fulfilled all that the law required. His righteousness is now my righteousness. Because He fulfilled the law, now I have fulfilled the law. His righteousness is now my own righteousness! So when someone says that we have to obey the law, say to them that you are not under the law but grace! And because He fulfilled the law, and His righteousness is imputed unto you, you have fulfilled the law and are now declared righteous before the Lord God.

PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!Halaleuijah I stand redeemed and righteous and justified before the great "I AM."

Law? What Law? The "law" that pointed me towards Jesus!

Excellent post, it looks like you have another 'agree-er' lol

I'm thankful that you pointed out that we aren't "lawless" under Grace even tho we aren't under the "law" (OT Torah).

Obedience to the law WAS their righteousness; but CHRIST IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS - who fulfilled it in our place. (mat. 5). :clap:

Rom 13:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Great post! :angel:

[DeaconDean]

Excellent post, it looks like you have another 'agree-er' lol

I'm thankful that you pointed out that we aren't "lawless" under Grace even tho we aren't under the "law" (OT Torah).

Obedience to the law WAS their righteousness; but CHRIST IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS - who fulfilled it in our place. (mat. 5). :clap:

Rom 13:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Great post! :angel:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nadiine again.

Sorry Sis, I was going to but.....

Anyhow, God Bless.

Till all are one.

[edb19]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nadiine again.

Sorry Sis, I was going to but.....

Anyhow, God Bless.

Till all are one.

got you covered:thumbsup:

[mont974x4]

Just some more to chew on a bit. ;-)


YLT
Phi 3:1 As to the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord; the same things to write to you to me indeed is not tiresome, and for you is sure;
Phi 3:2 look to the dogs, look to the evil-workers, look to the concision;
Phi 3:3 for we are the circumcision, who by the Spirit are serving God, and glorying in Christ Jesus, and in flesh having no trust,
Phi 3:4 though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
Phi 3:5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
Phi 3:6 according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
Phi 3:7 But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
Phi 3:8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
Phi 3:9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
Phi 3:10 to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death,
Phi 3:11 if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not that I did already obtain, or have been already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by the Christ Jesus;
Phi 3:13 brethren, I do not reckon myself to have laid hold; and one thing--the things behind indeed forgetting, and to the things before stretching forth--
Phi 3:14 to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 As many, therefore, as are perfect--let us think this, and if in anything ye think otherwise, this also shall God reveal to you,
Phi 3:16 but to what we have come--by the same rule walk, the same thing think;
Phi 3:17 become followers together of me, brethren, and observe those thus walking, according as ye have us--a pattern;
Phi 3:18 for many walk of whom many times I told you--and now also weeping tell--the enemies of the cross of the Christ!
Phi 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who the things on earth are minding.
Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await--the Lord Jesus Christ--
Phi 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.