Struggling with Fundamentalism

[kwalker]

Hello all.... I'm having some problems with the fundamental church/faith I belong to. I recently became a member of an Independant Fundamental Baptist Church (about 6 months ago). As a single mother, I was drawn in by the immense sense of family I felt there. For the first time in my life, I felt close to God and so did my children. Over the past few months, however, I'm really struggling with some of the doctrines of the church. Specifically the role of women and the intense frowning upon of exposure to anything not "fundamental baptist"-related. This is in addition to the no-dancing, no wearing pants, no listening to music "suggestions" that are being thrown at my family. I respect the members of our church and their dedication to living life the way they choose. But I'm starting to feel like the "pain" of the church since I'm always inquiring about dotrine, etc. I feel as though the families who were so welcoming are distancing themselves from us because we don't agree with everything. As a graduate student in psychology and a full-time working, single parent, I'm ready to give up on this strict church. But I'm torn. We have made amazing friends; especially my two teenagers! I'm wondering if any other Fundamental Christians have experienced these feelings/situations and how they have handled them.... thanks to anyone who can help!

[Project 86]

Have you talked to your pastor about this? Your IFB church seems a little more strict then mine. Women can wear pants and music is ok but rock is frowned upon. I certainly don't don't agree 100% with all the official stances but I don't make a public fuss about it. People should love you and fellowship with you. The only way I would ever distance myself from a member is if they were purposely going around and starting a fight between members.

Hello all.... I'm having some problems with the fundamental church/faith I belong to. I recently became a member of an Independant Fundamental Baptist Church (about 6 months ago). As a single mother, I was drawn in by the immense sense of family I felt there. For the first time in my life, I felt close to God and so did my children. Over the past few months, however, I'm really struggling with some of the doctrines of the church. Specifically the role of women and the intense frowning upon of exposure to anything not "fundamental baptist"-related. This is in addition to the no-dancing, no wearing pants, no listening to music "suggestions" that are being thrown at my family. I respect the members of our church and their dedication to living life the way they choose. But I'm starting to feel like the "pain" of the church since I'm always inquiring about dotrine, etc. I feel as though the families who were so welcoming are distancing themselves from us because we don't agree with everything. As a graduate student in psychology and a full-time working, single parent, I'm ready to give up on this strict church. But I'm torn. We have made amazing friends; especially my two teenagers! I'm wondering if any other Fundamental Christians have experienced these feelings/situations and how they have handled them.... thanks to anyone who can help!

[No Swansong]

Greetings! Welcome to CF and to Fundamentalist Forums! We are honored to have you here.

I have experienced some of the things that you post about. What I found was that in some issues that I was chaffed about I had not studied this issue and the Church was correct. In some issues I studied the issue and believed the Church to be wrong. However I always tried to do all things with the understanding that while I may disagree this individual is still my brother or my sister and deserves my respect. I certainly tried not to make an issue of things. For example, I have never been one who particularly like suits, not even for Church. But the church had pretty much an unwritten understanding that if a man owned a suit he should wear it to Sunday morning Church. I still don't see this as an issue for me as Jesus wants me in Church and I am not sure He cares that I am dressed up. However I do own a suit and I wear it. It is an unimportant little thing to do.

I am sure there are those on board here who would be happy to discuss specific issues you may have such as the role of Women in the Church or separation. You will probably find a diversity of opinions here but so far we get along pretty well.

Again Welcome to CF and Fundamentalist Churches Forum.

[TwinCrier]

Hello all.... I'm having some problems with the fundamental church/faith I belong to. I recently became a member of an Independant Fundamental Baptist Church (about 6 months ago). As a single mother, I was drawn in by the immense sense of family I felt there. For the first time in my life, I felt close to God and so did my children. Over the past few months, however, I'm really struggling with some of the doctrines of the church. Specifically the role of women and the intense frowning upon of exposure to anything not "fundamental baptist"-related. This is in addition to the no-dancing, no wearing pants, no listening to music "suggestions" that are being thrown at my family. I respect the members of our church and their dedication to living life the way they choose. But I'm starting to feel like the "pain" of the church since I'm always inquiring about dotrine, etc. I feel as though the families who were so welcoming are distancing themselves from us because we don't agree with everything. As a graduate student in psychology and a full-time working, single parent, I'm ready to give up on this strict church. But I'm torn. We have made amazing friends; especially my two teenagers! I'm wondering if any other Fundamental Christians have experienced these feelings/situations and how they have handled them.... thanks to anyone who can help!
I've felt the little pange of resentment when one of my pet and (in my eyes) minor sins were addressed in the church. I just looked at the over all situation and decided that the fellowship I had was more inportant to me than the legalism in question. Now I find myself on the other end, wanting to distance myself from those who seem to openly rebell against church teachings. I'd suggest reexaming the issue from the scriptures discussed and see if your mind doesn't change. For example, when I became a fundy, I didn't think it mattered what I thought about tattoos or abortion because I would never do those, but having a biblical mindset about all issues helped me to grow as a Christian.

[TheGroominator]

From one newbie to another, :wave: Hello kwalker

I believe that one of the biggest failures that churches of today make is edification and foundation building. Many expect whomever walks in through their doors to just fall in step with little or no explaination and it has resulted in many a soul leaving church permanently. I was talking to my wife about your post and she said that she had the very same problems as you have stated. (We weren't married at that time) She latched onto a couple who were godly and asked them questions galore. She also recommended that you go to the pastor's wife and talk with her whenever the opportunity arises. That helped her alot. But if you're beginning to feel like you are being avoided it may be because that many of the congregation doesn't really know why they believe what they believe, which, I believe, is another weakness of today's christian. My wife's advice, Hang in there. Don't give up. Keep asking questions. Who knows, you may be helping someone else by motivating them to get you the answers, thereby, helping themselves to understand. :thumbsup:

[arunma]

Hello all.... I'm having some problems with the fundamental church/faith I belong to. I recently became a member of an Independant Fundamental Baptist Church (about 6 months ago). As a single mother, I was drawn in by the immense sense of family I felt there. For the first time in my life, I felt close to God and so did my children. Over the past few months, however, I'm really struggling with some of the doctrines of the church. Specifically the role of women and the intense frowning upon of exposure to anything not "fundamental baptist"-related. This is in addition to the no-dancing, no wearing pants, no listening to music "suggestions" that are being thrown at my family. I respect the members of our church and their dedication to living life the way they choose. But I'm starting to feel like the "pain" of the church since I'm always inquiring about dotrine, etc. I feel as though the families who were so welcoming are distancing themselves from us because we don't agree with everything. As a graduate student in psychology and a full-time working, single parent, I'm ready to give up on this strict church. But I'm torn. We have made amazing friends; especially my two teenagers! I'm wondering if any other Fundamental Christians have experienced these feelings/situations and how they have handled them.... thanks to anyone who can help!

Well I am orthodox rather than fundamentalist (meaning that I believe in the infallibility of Scripture, but I am not a fundamentalist...whatever that means), so take whatever I say in that context. But personally I think that Independent Fundamental Baptist churches aren't always a good idea. As the name implies, they are independent, so some of them have sound doctrine. For example, from what I've heard, Twincrier's church seems rather sound.

But the problem is that many of these churches will often replace the commandments of God with the traditions of man. For example, can you find the Biblical basis for requiring women to wear skirts? Some will point to the fact that the Bible presents an idea of manhood and womanhood. This is true, but can you make a Scriptural connection between skirts and womanhood?

Therein lies the problem with being completely independent. When people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, sound doctrine is lost. For example, there's a poster on the Baptist forum who attends an IFB, whose church claims that the Sun revolves around the earth! Anyone can claim that their doctrines are Biblically sound. In fact Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses say precisely this. But saying "the Bible says no secular music!" is not enough (note that I don't personally listen to secular music, so I have no personal agenda to defend it). If a church enforces a commandment that is not taught in Scripture, then they have replaced the commandment of God with human tradition.

[No Swansong]

Well I am orthodox rather than fundamentalist (meaning that I believe in the infallibility of Scripture, but I am not a fundamentalist...whatever that means), so take whatever I say in that context. But personally I think that Independent Fundamental Baptist churches aren't always a good idea. As the name implies, they are independent, so some of them have sound doctrine. For example, from what I've heard, Twincrier's church seems rather sound.

But the problem is that many of these churches will often replace the commandments of God with the traditions of man. For example, can you find the Biblical basis for requiring women to wear skirts? Some will point to the fact that the Bible presents an idea of manhood and womanhood. This is true, but can you make a Scriptural connection between skirts and womanhood?

Therein lies the problem with being completely independent. When people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, sound doctrine is lost. For example, there's a poster on the Baptist forum who attends an IFB, whose church claims that the Sun revolves around the earth! Anyone can claim that their doctrines are Biblically sound. In fact Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses say precisely this. But saying "the Bible says no secular music!" is not enough (note that I don't personally listen to secular music, so I have no personal agenda to defend it). If a church enforces a commandment that is not taught in Scripture, then they have replaced the commandment of God with human tradition.
You bring up a good point my friend, there is a fine line between what Scripture actually says and what many of us perceive it to say. The two are often (presumably) the same, but not always.

[1057]

Therein lies the problem with being completely independent. When people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, sound doctrine is lost.

Hmm, IFCA (http://www.ifca.org/What_Is_An_Independent_Fundamental_Church.htm) churches are independent in the sense of church polity, but they do have a statement of faith.

Personally, I'm fascinated by fundamentalist churches, but I'm Calvinist and charismatic and non-dispensationalist so there's a significant degree of difference between what I believe and typical fundamentalism. But I deeply respect their conservatism.

[God_of_Mercy]

Sounds way to legalistic and controlling to me...

[DiscipleOfIAm]

It's too bad your church is making you feel this way. Press on. TwinCrier is right. Research the Scriptures. Study. Seek counsel from your pastor.

The church I have attended that is IFB summed it up to me like this:

There are different levels of Christians. A brand new Christian is a level I. Level I is like a child. It is not expected to do too much. This is your average church attender.

Level II is the church attender that now wants to help out around the church. He/she may want to help cut grass, paint, etc. This person is expected to be a little more mature as they represent the church while doing this.

Level III would be someone who is in the choir. They are expected to abide by the church's beliefs while serving at church. If they wear ants at home, that's on them, but at service it's different.

Level IV is someone that might teach Sunday School. This person needs to be a very mature Christian. They believe and accept the church's beliefs and practice and keep them all the time.

Level V is like your pastor or his assistants.

It's a lot like military rank. A private is not expected to be able to drive a tank and fly helicopters. But, a general is expected to have those skills. A child is not expected to understand or have the responsibility a teenager does.

As you make your journey, you may find you have these convictions, too. It takes time. It's too bad your church is not giving you this space. Most people stay at level I or II their whole lives.

At the church I have attended. No one makes you feel different or no one ever tells you or suggests to you to wear a dress or not go to a movie theater, etc. If you're at level III or IV, that's different.

Hope this helps! Talk to someone at the church. Tell them you're feeling pressured or discriminated.

God Bless!

[TheGroominator]

(as posted by arunma) But the problem is that many of these churches will often replace the commandments of God with the traditions of man. For example, can you find the Biblical basis for requiring women to wear skirts? Some will point to the fact that the Bible presents an idea of manhood and womanhood. This is true, but can you make a Scriptural connection between skirts and womanhood?

Therein lies the problem with being completely independent. When people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, sound doctrine is lost.

I agree with you on sound doctrine, that is why we must study the Bible. But your question on the skirts in Scriptures caught my attention. Our church believes in dresses only but we don't have a scripture reference for it because there is none. However, there are plenty of scriptures on modesty. We believe in no pants for females because it shows off the curves of their bodies which the Bible tells us is only for the husband of woman. Most women wear their pants tight enough that it leaves no imagination as to their *attributes*. Now I know, the next thing you say is that the man doesn't have to look, which is true. That is why it is so important that a man make his own covenant with his eyes that when that temptation is presented he will avert his eyes instead of becoming googly-eyed. :)
Even many women who wear the jean skirts wear them so tight you wander how they got into them. Is that being dressed modestly?

I am a member of a IFB church because I truly believe that the SBC and the Christian worship centers and others have gotten away from the true teachings of the Bible and they are trying to align the life they want to live with certain scriptures in the Bible while ignoring others and justifying their actions by doing so.

We do not believe whatever we want to believe, we believe whole-heartedly what the Bible says.

[plmarquette]

www.cfaith.com (http://www.cfaith.com) has a church locater ... Word of Faith , biblical based ...

might also look for a vineyard church , a bit laid back , relaxed , come as you are service ...

[IndyRider]

It's too bad your church is making you feel this way. Press on. TwinCrier is right. Research the Scriptures. Study. Seek counsel from your pastor.

The church I have attended that is IFB summed it up to me like this:

There are different levels of Christians. A brand new Christian is a level I. Level I is like a child. It is not expected to do too much. This is your average church attender.

Level II is the church attender that now wants to help out around the church. He/she may want to help cut grass, paint, etc. This person is expected to be a little more mature as they represent the church while doing this.

Level III would be someone who is in the choir. They are expected to abide by the church's beliefs while serving at church. If they wear ants at home, that's on them, but at service it's different.

Level IV is someone that might teach Sunday School. This person needs to be a very mature Christian. They believe and accept the church's beliefs and practice and keep them all the time.

Level V is like your pastor or his assistants.

It's a lot like military rank. A private is not expected to be able to drive a tank and fly helicopters. But, a general is expected to have those skills. A child is not expected to understand or have the responsibility a teenager does.

As you make your journey, you may find you have these convictions, too. It takes time. It's too bad your church is not giving you this space. Most people stay at level I or II their whole lives.

At the church I have attended. No one makes you feel different or no one ever tells you or suggests to you to wear a dress or not go to a movie theater, etc. If you're at level III or IV, that's different.

Hope this helps! Talk to someone at the church. Tell them you're feeling pressured or discriminated.

God Bless!
Levels of Christianity? Sounds like that way of thinking is putting a lot of emphasis on what the "men" around you are thinking about your Christian walk. I believe this way of thinking is a breeding ground for legalism.

[BuenasNuevas]

In part, I would agree with the comments about the way people dress, but what's really important is what they believe. The way you dress, or what music you listen to is not doctrine. No different than shaking someones hand, it's a custom. When I first set foot in a IFB church I noticed the people were different. I thought how can all these people be so old fashion in a modern world? But like the first posted message, I made many genuine friends and the customs grew on me. Niceness is becoming. In my church, no one would criticize you for your dress, or any other outward feature (blue hair, body piercing, whatever), but they would befriend you and encourage you to keep coming. I've now been in my church for 12 years and love it. As for doctrine, getting people saved is what the IFB church is all about. Soul winning! I love those on-fire people! Keep spreading the Buenas Nuevas (Good News)!

[cubanito]

Well I am orthodox rather than fundamentalist (meaning that I believe in the infallibility of Scripture, but I am not a fundamentalist...whatever that means), so take whatever I say in that context. But personally I think that Independent Fundamental Baptist churches aren't always a good idea. As the name implies, they are independent, so some of them have sound doctrine. For example, from what I've heard, Twincrier's church seems rather sound.

But the problem is that many of these churches will often replace the commandments of God with the traditions of man. For example, can you find the Biblical basis for requiring women to wear skirts? Some will point to the fact that the Bible presents an idea of manhood and womanhood. This is true, but can you make a Scriptural connection between skirts and womanhood?

Therein lies the problem with being completely independent. When people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, sound doctrine is lost. For example, there's a poster on the Baptist forum who attends an IFB, whose church claims that the Sun revolves around the earth! Anyone can claim that their doctrines are Biblically sound. In fact Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses say precisely this. But saying "the Bible says no secular music!" is not enough (note that I don't personally listen to secular music, so I have no personal agenda to defend it). If a church enforces a commandment that is not taught in Scripture, then they have replaced the commandment of God with human tradition.

Oh my dear Arumna, I leave u be for a few days and u start writing silly things. My little child, perhaps u ought to submit ur posts to me by PM before posting. I know u try hard to be my good little troll, but once again ur master must correct you.

Hierarchical control does not remove error. As you point out the errors of Mormons and JW's, please note they are very tightly controlled, very large groups, and yet their doctrines are completely wacked (as u acknowledge).

An independent assembly, large or small, "religious" or secular, is no more free of error than a huge multicental group, either tighly hierarchical or loosely held. The only thing is that very large groups with a long history are probably less likely to commit mass suicide, else they wouldn't have survived long enough to become large groups w a long history. Even then we have examples such as WWII Japan where both military and civilians routinely commited mass suicide in their Shinto/nationalistic brainwashed state.

For every wacked out extremist small insular tiny group, there are plenty of others that remain sane. I have no formal data, but it seems to me that some roughly similar proportion of wacked/sane occurs among large organizations. I do not wish to incur CF wrath by listing a number of "protestant christian" mainline large historical denominations which are way off base Scripturally; but they are quite well known. Just look at the roster of the world council of churches and you might spot a few names,.

As for my own denom, the Presby-PCA, I have left my local body this week. First time I leave a Church. Had to do so for the opposite reason the poster is struggling w hers. The poster is at an assembly were the legalistic/repent side of the Gospel is unduly emphasized. In my local assembly there is now the stated goal not to offend anyone, not to speak of sin and repentance.

My heart goes out to the poster. I feel shredded as the social gospel has taken over my local body, and I have had to walk away. I was going to also quit the men's group (6 guys at 6:30AM on Wednsday screaming at each other), but they pleaded w me to stay. They claim they want my opposition.

Well anyway, I suggest to the poster that she have a serious talk and very plainly ask if pants, dancing and music out of Church is a problem. They have every right to a dress code in Church.

You may find that the very strong sense of "family" is in large part supported by and causing the lockstep behaviour. Circling the wagons is a strong group builder, wether the wagons are circled around legalism or liberalism. In both cases we disoey God, but certainly appease our own natural herd instinct. As a single mother, your group/herd instinct is especially strong.

I am sad, but I'm not jumping off the cliff just to be w my buddies.

JR

[kobuk]

You can't really have a struggle with fundamentalism without having a struggle with the truth of Scripture. The two are one and the same thing.

[arunma]

Oh my dear Arumna, I leave u be for a few days and u start writing silly things. My little child, perhaps u ought to submit ur posts to me by PM before posting. I know u try hard to be my good little troll, but once again ur master must correct you.

Well JR, that's why I have you around to bring me back from my ever-wandering ways.

Sorry to hear about your church, by the way. Certainly no church should stop talking about sin and repentance. I'm really surprised to see this happen at a PCA church.

[Silent Enigma]

Hello all.... I'm having some problems with the fundamental church/faith I belong to. I recently became a member of an Independant Fundamental Baptist Church (about 6 months ago). As a single mother, I was drawn in by the immense sense of family I felt there. For the first time in my life, I felt close to God and so did my children. Over the past few months, however, I'm really struggling with some of the doctrines of the church. Specifically the role of women and the intense frowning upon of exposure to anything not "fundamental baptist"-related. This is in addition to the no-dancing, no wearing pants, no listening to music "suggestions" that are being thrown at my family. I respect the members of our church and their dedication to living life the way they choose. But I'm starting to feel like the "pain" of the church since I'm always inquiring about dotrine, etc. I feel as though the families who were so welcoming are distancing themselves from us because we don't agree with everything. As a graduate student in psychology and a full-time working, single parent, I'm ready to give up on this strict church. But I'm torn. We have made amazing friends; especially my two teenagers! I'm wondering if any other Fundamental Christians have experienced these feelings/situations and how they have handled them.... thanks to anyone who can help!

Oh boysies can we relate to this one. I bolded the points that are like an exact mirror of the circumstance we went through.

People are real friendly at first, make you feel like you are part of a big family, etc. You feel close to God at this point, too. But eventually the "grace period" runs out if you're not the perfect clone. Sigh. And then the people who were such great "friends" dissappear. They are only friendly in a superficial distant way. Then you end up feeling like they never really cared about you in the first place, you were just another mission to accomplish.

Ah well, anyway, my point is that if you're interested in maintaining a healthy amount of faith, move on before you get burned out and disgusted. If the friends your children have made are true friends, they'll still be friends whether they attend the exact same church or not. It'll separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

That's my opinion based on my wife's and my experience with a couple of fundamentalist groups.

[mrshoward]

I just had to respond to this thread. I've been in an IFBC since I was a child, and for decades I rebelled against the legalism. Finally I joined an SBC and for 10 years grew in the Lord and served Him until that church went "modern" and became too worldly for me. My husband and I were delighted to find an IFBC nearby and joined. At first, everyone was so friendly---just like the OP's church. The pastor was so loving, called us, came by to see us, encouragedus. This all lasted about a year, until, because of health issues, I elected to stay home on Sunday evenings and not attend that service. Mind you, I attend Sunday School, Sunday morning service (which goes from 11 to 12:45), Wednesday night service, choir practice, and door-knocking on Saturday mornings. I also play the piano for all special music and the Wednesday night service. But due to that one thing, I'm anathema now.
And since these types of churches are so insular, the pastor can get away with some stuff that's just unbelieveable. We have a building program, which my husband and I have been contributing to weekly, a set amount we pledged to God. But the pastor takes money from the program whenever he feels like it -- he just recently bought himself a new car with some of that money. This was never brought before the church. He told the deacons what he was going to do and did it. Also, the business meeting where this was discussed? The pastor's wife and all the wives of the deacons left. As an example, I suppose, that we women weren't even supposed to sit in a business meeting and listen to what is happening in the church!
BUT, they do win souls. And preach straight from the Bible. And encourage us to live separated lives. And it's hard to find a church like that in this era of Laodaceia.