The dead, prayer, Maccabees, etc.

[plum]

This thread, I hope, will cover a few topics that I see are all linked together. I hope you will try to touch on all of them. I'm open to learning!

Here are some topics I wish to discuss:

1) Prayers for the dead, prayers to the dead, and the differences between them. Which one is okay, if any at all?

2) Kaddish: what is it really? Is it prayers for the dead? does Judaism not see prayers for the dead in the same vein as, say, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox?

3) Maccabees: One passage is commonly used to argue the Catholic perspective on Purgatory, prayers to/for the dead, etc... What does the following passage mean in light of other Scripture? Does it fully agree?
2 Maccabees, 12:40-46:
When Judas and his men came to take away for burial the bodies of their brethren who had fallen in the battle against Gorgias, "they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten...And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve [al. two] drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep in godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

Just use those ideas as jumping off points... I'm just hoping to hear a Messianic perspective that sees both sides, but always sides with Scripture.

Thanks, folks! shalom.

[plum]

some sites that say interesting things...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Maccabees#Doctrine
http://www.ctsp.co.il/prayer_dead.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2006/06/purgatory-and-prayers-for-dead.html

[HadassahSukkot]

1) prayers for the dead / to the dead:

I do not believe in prayers to the dead. They're dead, they can't hear you. Either way, they would rather your energy be going towards G-d than something futile, i'm sure.

Praying for the dead, I think is kind of "natural" - you hope they were right with G-d, and you pray for grace.. I think sometimes it's more for us than ever for them.

2) Kaddish:

I not only say this prayer, but it is a hymn of praise to G-d, not prayer to or for the dead - no matter how you twist it...
You can find the prayer on Judaism 101's site as well as others. I see no praying for the dead there. it's for the people left behind and giving glory to G-d.

One of the things that is done when you hear of bad "fortune" or death of someone - you say "Blessed be the true Judge"..

3) Maccabees: I don't see how this is really anything other than what we see say, in the judgement of those who followed Ba'alim or Korah.... or the sin of Achin. We see what the judgment is for, we repent of our sin, we give glory to G-d and now we know what was wrong- sin in the camp.

What Judas did, I don't agree with, but there are always examples of people doing things not commanded within scripture.

I'm unsure how I feel about them feeling that Grace was laid up in heaven, and the making sacrifices for the dead -- but we know that there were people doing mikvahs for the dead and other things that aren't really right - as evidenced in some of Paul's writings..

[plum]

I think the trouble comes when people take what we think "isn't right" (as you state above) and make it into doctrine or common theology as if it is right. Because if nothing in the Scriptures say "that isn't right"... then who's to say it isn't?

2) Kaddish:

I not only say this prayer, but it is a hymn of praise to G-d, not prayer to or for the dead - no matter how you twist it...
You can find the prayer on Judaism 101's site as well as others. I see no praying for the dead there. it's for the people left behind and giving glory to G-d.I know it's a prayer to and about HaShem. I think it's gorgeous!
the thing is... most Jewish sites I've looked at seem to agree it's a prayer for the dead. That's where I see confusion.

I just found this prayer which seems to be a better fit for the title "prayer for the dead":
El Maleh Rachamim/
God, Filled with Compassion
El Maleh Rachamim:
God, filled with Motherly Compassion,
grant a full and perfect rest
under the wings of Your sheltering Sh'khinah/ Presence
-- among the lofty, holy, and pure,
radiant as the shining firmament --
to the souls of all those of all Your peoples
who have been killed in and around the lands where
Abraham our Forebear walked --
Make them welcome to their eternal home.
May they rest in Your Edenic Garden of Delight.
Please, Master of Mercy,
envelop them
in Your comforting, protecting wings forever;
Bind up their souls in the Bond of Life.
For You are their Portion, their Inheritance.
May they rest securely in Peace,
and we say:
Amen.

[zhilan]

Do you include Maccabees in your OT?

[plum]

Well I personally don't have it in my print editions at the moment. I did as a child (catholic upbringing).

[HadassahSukkot]

I can't put my finger on it right now Eirene, but when I can I will put it in here..

I do agree that the other prayer is out and out a prayer for the dead. In the Artscroll siddur as well as two others I have (and left with andreas) it listed Kaddish as a Hymn of Praise to G-d, rather than "prayer for the dead"... or anything similar.

The actions of Judas remind me of the man who promised rashly that he will sacrifice what came out his door first to G-d, and it was his only daughter... as well as the actions of Jacob's sons who went back and dug up the idols that were buried under the tree that they had buried awhile back... or.. say - cursing your neighbor/enemy (asking that bad things befall them) which we do find in scripture too...

In accordance with the mitzvot we know it's wrong, but the lines are a little blurred as to which mitzvot exactly it would fall under, because if you think about it, a lot of them go right into the others.

[HadassahSukkot]

It's read every Hanukkah. Like the Book of Esther, if it isn't already in your Tanakh (which it hasn't been - maccabees that is - for a long time); you have a seperate book or scroll of it that you read from.

[zhilan]

Yeah, I was just wondering becuase this issue aside, Maccabees I think has some wonderful stories. There is in particular one about a mother with 7 sons who all are martyred for their refusal to eat pork. I've always found this very inspiring and an amazing testament to faith.